Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bob_the_Theurge 02-09-07, 10:36 AM	Pursuant to discussions that have come up with regard to the non-broken but curiously removed Divine Spellpower, I've come to the conclusion the Sudden feats themselves are just broken. Why? Because they allow the use of a metamagic feat without affecting the level of the spell. In one example, they were used to cast the equivalent of an epic-level (level 10) spell from a 9th level caster. Until such time as Sudden feats are errata'ed so that their usage is either a Swift or Immediate action (so that only one Sudden feat may be used on a given spell) I urge they be Closed.
Timlagor 02-09-07, 10:57 AM	They are much more problematic in the hands of NPCs (who usually only have one fight ever) than in the hands of PCs (though the comparatively few combats in LG make them more powerful than they might be in another campaign). How about making them PC only to make up for all the stuff only authors get to play with? ;)
magebeast 02-09-07, 03:07 PM	The sudden feats were Limited, and now are NONC. Access to the more powerful ones (empower, maximize, quicken) is pretty low, as far as I can tell. I have a level 4 sorcerer with access to sudden maximize, but that's from an interactive in '04 (I shelved the character shortly after). They are certainly powerful, I'll grant you that, but are there really a lot of characters with access to multiple sudden feats? Plus, I'll grant you that a sudden maximized empowered fireball disintegrate is pretty nasty, with an average unsaved damage of around 232 points at level 15. But that's once a day and you've burnt out two feats on a single spell. You've also invested in at least one other metamagic feat at that point. Clearly I'm biased, as I desire to take the feat at level 6, but I'm not certain they have the same problems as DMM.
Britt 02-09-07, 03:12 PM	We've talked about it and they are likely staying how they are. There are too many issues associated with getting rid of them.
Franco Un-American 02-09-07, 03:12 PM	Right now, only warmages get core use out of sudden feats, and not even the good ones. They're so weak compared to a sorcerer or wizard that they need them. That seems to be the only reason they're not closed. I expect access to them for other classes too be incredibly rare.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-09-07, 03:26 PM	The sudden feats were Limited, and now are NONC. Access to the more powerful ones (empower, maximize, quicken) is pretty low, as far as I can tell. I have a level 4 sorcerer with access to sudden maximize, but that's from an interactive in '04 (I shelved the character shortly after). They are certainly powerful, I'll grant you that, but are there really a lot of characters with access to multiple sudden feats? Plus, I'll grant you that a sudden maximized empowered fireball disintegrate is pretty nasty, with an average unsaved damage of around 232 points at level 15. But that's once a day and you've burnt out two feats on a single spell. You've also invested in at least one other metamagic feat at that point. Clearly I'm biased, as I desire to take the feat at level 6, but I'm not certain they have the same problems as DMM. No, there isn't a problem for PC's, it's when they are given to NPC's that problems arise. A Sudden Maximized Sudden Empowered Sudden Widened Energy Admixture Fireball is "problematic" to put it mildly. The problem is that NPC's get anything they want from NONC and "writer only" access.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-09-07, 03:30 PM	We've talked about it and they are likely staying how they are. There are too many issues associated with getting rid of them. Currently, only Warmages get them as core access. A 15th-level Warmage only has Sudden Widen, Sudden Enlarge, and Sudden Empower. If you had to come up with alternatives, fine. Only the damage enhancers are the real threat.
trollbill 02-09-07, 03:39 PM	The funny thing about Sudden Quicken is that you could give access to it on every single AR and you still wouldn't see it very often because the Prereqs are pretty much every other Sudden Metamagic feat out there.
ZX670 02-09-07, 03:42 PM	The problem is that NPC's get anything they want from NONC and "writer only" access. Even with that as a possibility, in over 150+ ARs, I've never played in a mod where a mix of them like that was used. In fact, I think I've only ever seen players use them at all.