Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Howie23 02-10-07, 11:17 AM	I'm looking at my Rgr7/Wiz1/Arc1, and reevaluating the one flexible feat I have for retraining at 10th level. I currently have Improved Rapid Shot. I am looking at Retraining for CWI, using my Ranger CL3, which I'll use for stat boost item upgrades for the reduced cost. I'll use Rgr2 for the spell prereqs on Amulet/Periapt/Gloves. At 12th level, I'll have CL5, and will trade CWI out for a while to gain craft wands. I'll use scrolls (if necessary) to elevator scrolls of bull's strength and other wizard spells that I can't cast myself to equip myself with a bunch of nice wizard wands at reduced cost. I can then use those wands next time I take CWI to fuel my Belt of Giant Strength (if I didn't make it last time I had CWI). ************** I'm sure others can come up with more abusive ways of using the retraining rules. After all, I'm not usually one to seek the cracks to flood optimization through, and the PC is not a hypothetical build, that's my current toon. I think this is sufficient to illustrate the problem, given that this aspect of retraining/MIC is being considered. CL3 becomes a near mandatory build goal (even if you have a half-orc shock trooper without mental stats...grab a statboost item during your CWI phases to ease the pocketbook.) for the gold. Three +6 statboost items is a savings of over 50k gp, and that savings is not trivial. I suspect this is offset a bit by the XP/GP rule. However, this aspect of things spawns a new breed of Pocketbook Optimization rather than Character Optimization. The upside is that it favors arcane/melee builds. And we all know they need a boost.... ;) David
Randall Montgomery 02-10-07, 11:34 AM	Personally, I don't see this as being a problem. It'll cost you 900 GP to retrain your character, then it'll cost you XP and TUs to craft the items you want (if you're going for +6 stat items, it'll cost you 8 TUs and 1440 XP EACH). Then it'll cost you another 1200 GP to retrain again, ect. Oh, and if you can't cast a spell, it's impossible to craft a wand for it, so what you're suggesting isn't even possible. Sorry, no Wands of Bull Strength or Belt of Giant strength for you. :( PS. In case it wasn't obvious, the same goes for scrolls. If the spell's not known (or on your spell list, for clerics and the like), you can't craft the item. In your example, it would be possible to PURCHASE the wand, assuming you have access to it, although if memory serves, it'll take 36 charges from a wand of bull strength (a 4500 item) to craft a BoGS +6. That, in addition to the retraining costs I mentioned previously, and the lost income from those TUs when you're not adventuring, pretty significantly cuts into what you save for crafting the item instead of purchasing it, and adds an access requirement that isn't normally there now. Could this work? Sure. But I think it's restrictive enough that it's not really a problem.
Howie23 02-10-07, 11:48 AM	Personally, I don't see this as being a problem. It'll cost you 900 GP to retrain your character, then it'll cost you XP and TUs to craft the items you want (if you're going for +6 stat items, it'll cost you 8 TUs and 1440 XP EACH). Then it'll cost you another 1200 GP to retrain again, ect. Costing 900GP to save 18,000gp on +6 Gloves of Dex, etc is a problem? TU cost for a stable of characters where I currently have 80 surplus TUs (If I get in all year 7 regionals, metas, and cores). A cost in XP for crafting vs. the GP curve is a problem? No problem. There is SO MUCH cash flow here that it funds all sorts of fun and games. Oh, and if you can't cast a spell, it's impossible to craft a wand for it, so what you're suggesting isn't even possible. Sorry, no Wands of Bull Strength or Belt of Giant strength for you. :( Bull's strength is Wiz2. I can cast scrolls via my level of Wizard to fuel the wand (DMG p. 215). I can then use one charge each for each day of the belt. Thus the thread title using the word elevator. Remember, this is unimaginative lil' ol' me looking at very simple options. This is a major case of GP inflation on the horizon. David
Randall Montgomery 02-10-07, 11:53 AM	Bull's strength is Wiz2. I can cast scrolls via my level of Wizard to fuel the wand (DMG p. 215). I can then use one charge each for each day of the belt. Thus the thread title using the word elevator. Remember, this is unimaginative lil' ol' me looking at very simple options. This is a major case of GP inflation on the horizon. David Yes, but to have that you need to be a Wiz 3, and looking from your build, those two levels will have a serious impact on your effectiveness that I'm not sure the equipment you craft will make up for. If you want to take that hit, than I'd say craft away, you've earned it. PS Oh, also forgot, you need CL 8 to craft any stat boos item anyway (CL 10 for BoGS), so you're potential abuse has a HUGE hole in it I didn't even notice before. Sorry.
Howie23 02-10-07, 12:05 PM	Yes, but to have that you need to be a Wiz 3, and looking from your build, those two levels will have a serious impact on your effectiveness that I'm not sure the equipment you craft will make up for. If you want to take that hit, than I'd say craft away, you've earned it. Let's see: DMG 215 says I can use a scroll to make an item, but p. 288 says I need to prepare the spell to make the wand. Ok, thanks. So, I just need enough scrolls for the belt. That's 36 scrolls at 150gp each=4800gp, plus a few for mis-casts. That's vs. the 18,000gp savings for the item, offset by the retraining costs. David PS: remember, this is my non-optimized Pocketbook character. My Ftr2/Swash2/Not-Duskblade0 will now go Wizard on his way to Green Star Adept, taking CWI on the way to craft the statboost items. Wizard3 gives me all the spells needed, and is enough for CWI...unfortunately. I'll have to wait for 9th level though...but won't have the cash until then anyway.
Howie23 02-10-07, 12:09 PM	PS Oh, also forgot, you need CL 8 to craft any stat boos item anyway (CL 10 for BoGS), so you're potential abuse has a HUGE hole in it I didn't even notice before. Sorry. Nope. CL is no longer a prerequisite for crafting. This was an LG specific rule that is now gone. Instead, we fall back on the DMG errata and the FAQ. CL is only a prerequisite if the item identifies it as a prerequisite. (see spell storing weapon enhancement or Ioun Stones for example, although Ioun stones character level, not CL) The CL listing is the CL for typical items (mine will be CL4 or CL5) for dealing with dispel magic suppression and the like. David
Randall Montgomery 02-10-07, 12:14 PM	Nope. CL is no longer a prerequisite for crafting. This was an LG specific rule that is now gone. Instead, we fall back on the DMG errata and the FAQ. CL is only a prerequisite if the item identifies it as a prerequisite. (see spell storing weapon enhancement or Ioun Stones for example, although Ioun stones character level, not CL) The CL listing is the CL for typical items (mine will be CL4 or CL5) for dealing with dispel magic suppression and the like. David Hmmm, didn't notice that was removed. Wish this had happened about 2 years ago! :( Still, I'm going to have to stand by my original assesment that the normal penalties from crafting and retraining make up for this. If you want to spend the TUs and XP, and gold for the scrolls, then go ahead and make whatever you want. You're cutting the ammount of savings you would normally get from crafting items by about 1/3, so I'd say that's punishment enough. Now if you'll excuse me, my Wizard has a ton of equipment that he just learned he's finally able to craft! :D
Howie23 02-10-07, 12:15 PM	. Now if you'll excuse me, my Wizard has a ton of equipment that he just learned he's finally able to craft! :D Yes, time for Ken to make a new list. :D David
Randall Montgomery 02-10-07, 12:23 PM	Ok, something else just occured to me that would throw a wrench in your plan. Your example character is a Ranger 7/Wiz 1/Arc 1, which gives you (IIRC) a Ranger CL 3 and a Wizard CL 1. While you could take CWI, you could only craft stuff as a ranger, since your Wizard CL isn't high enough to meet the feat prereq. I believe this goes back to having to take another 2 levels of wizard to making this work, which as I said really dosen't help your build any.
Howie23 02-10-07, 12:38 PM	Ok, something else just occured to me that would throw a wrench in your plan. Your example character is a Ranger 7/Wiz 1/Arc 1, which gives you (IIRC) a Ranger CL 3 and a Wizard CL 1. While you could take CWI, you could only craft stuff as a ranger, since your Wizard CL isn't high enough to meet the feat prereq. I believe this goes back to having to take another 2 levels of wizard to making this work, which as I said really dosen't help your build any. Cite why I have to craft as a ranger? I have the feat. Individual items have prereq of the feat and specific spells. Nothing more. David
Randall Montgomery 02-10-07, 12:48 PM	Cite why I have to craft as a ranger? I have the feat. Individual items have prereq of the feat and specific spells. Nothing more. David I'm working, so everything is by memory, but each class has it's own clearly defined caster level, as evidenced by any class which gains +1 spellcasting (they all indicate if you have two or more, you have to pick one to increase). So, if you're going to meet a CL prerequisite, it needs to be done with the spell list that meets that prerequisite. Besides which, if your interpretation is correct, than any spellcasting class could just take a single level of another class and gain access to craft any item requiring a spell on their entire spell list (eg Wiz 10/ Cleric 1, Bard 10/ Wiz 1, Ranger 10/Wiz 1, ect.), which would have been completely exploitable before this LGCS. Given that I haven't seen or heard of it, it seems likely that it is illegal, since I doubt no one else has thought of it before this. I'll have to look further into this later to give you a more specific answer. Maybe I'll get lucky and someone else with an actual rules source will chime in in the meantime.
Maesto 02-11-07, 10:26 AM	I believe the OP is correct in saying that his CL 3 for ranger qualifies him for CWI, which can now be used by his wizard level. A 14th level wizard/1st level cleric can use his divine favour spell to craft a luckstone, for example. HOWEVER, you are missing that a CL1 wizard cannot always use CL3 scrolls; you _will_ fail on some days. Besides which, all of those scrolls will cost at least 5400 gp, as well as gold for the ones you fail on. Sure, you save some gold, but you are giving up a feat. It appears that the idea is currently to increase the cost of retraining out a MIC feat also, which will stymie such plans. Otherwise, sounds solid to me. Hell, I might even take CWI with my ranger to get some stat boost items cheaply now!