Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 12:01 PM	I've held off on this to think about it, because I wasn't sure whether it was a good idea to implement the "retraining" options. After a long ponder, I think that retraining is broken for the campaign. I've been looking it over, and the idea of people actually working their way through a build vanishes; instead, they will run at "low-level" optimized feats, retrain at whatever level to get "mid-level" optimized feats, and so on. Skill retraining is particularly broken, because as written it allows someone to hoard skill points from a skill-rich class (say, Rogue), grab a level of Cleric, and essentially spend them as Cleric class skills even though they came from Rogue levels. For example, a Rogue 2 who had 4 ranks in Hide could walk into Cleric and immediately convert all 4 to a Cleric skill (say, 4 ranks in Knowledge: Religion) on a 1 point per rank basis rather than 1/2 per rank, and still spend the skill points from his Cleric level normally. We kept out Able Learner for the reason that it breaks the skill point barrier, skill point retraining has the same effect.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 12:06 PM	I've held off on this to think about it, because I wasn't sure whether it was a good idea to implement the "retraining" options. After a long ponder, I think that retraining is broken for the campaign. I've been looking it over, and the idea of people actually working their way through a build vanishes; instead, they will run at "low-level" optimized feats, retrain at whatever level to get "mid-level" optimized feats, and so on. Skill retraining is particularly broken, because as written it allows someone to hoard skill points from a skill-rich class (say, Rogue), grab a level of Cleric, and essentially spend them as Cleric class skills even though they came from Rogue levels. For example, a Rogue 2 who had 4 ranks in Hide could walk into Cleric and immediately convert all 4 to a Cleric skill (say, 4 ranks in Knowledge: Religion) on a 1 point per rank basis rather than 1/2 per rank, and still spend the skill points from his Cleric level normally. We kept out Able Learner for the reason that it breaks the skill point barrier, skill point retraining has the same effect. Except with retraining it costs 4tu's and 100gp/level, and you can only swap 4 skill ranks at a time. I'm sure their are ways to abuse this for prestige class entry, (Which I'll have to look into, :devil: ), but for the most part, it's a minor boost. I agree that the feat re-training is much more powerful, and will encourage even more power gaming, but it also will let people legitimately correct poor feat choices. And spell choices, and class feature choices...
Britt 02-08-07, 12:07 PM	There are a few flaws with that reasoning: 1. You can only change one a level. 2. It has a gold cost that rises as you level, at a higher rate of increase than your gold per level increases. It is far more efficient to do this at lower levels (as we intended). 3. Retraining multiple times at higher levels equals several thousand gold. This is a power cost and powergamers will realize that and be deterred. 4. The TU cost is also a deterrent to powergamers. Most people that are trying to eek the most power out of their character also want to get there quickly. Spending TUs decreases how quickly they can advance. There is a little room for abuse, but it is not as much as some people think. Even with the room for light abuse, the benefits far outweigh the negatives.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-08-07, 12:18 PM	There are a few flaws with that reasoning: 1. You can only change one a level. Easy enough to go through, though. Change 3 levels straight and you changed 12 skill points. 2. It has a gold cost that rises as you level, at a higher rate of increase than your gold per level increases. It is far more efficient to do this at lower levels (as we intended). Change at 3, 4, 5: total cost is 1200 gold. Sorry, but by 5th level even that's considered pocket change. Change every single level and by 15th level you've only spent 11,900 to break the rules on skill points and plenty of room to swap feats and cheese out at whatever level. 3. Retraining multiple times at higher levels equals several thousand gold. This is a power cost and powergamers will realize that and be deterred. 4. The TU cost is also a deterrent to powergamers. Most people that are trying to eek the most power out of their character also want to get there quickly. Spending TUs decreases how quickly they can advance. The power gain is well worth it, and the "several thousand" by top level is miniscule. There is a little room for abuse, but it is not as much as some people think. Even with the room for light abuse, the benefits far outweigh the negatives. I'm just seeing a lot more room for abuse than you are. :(
Mommy was an Orc 02-08-07, 12:33 PM	There are a few flaws with that reasoning: 2. It has a gold cost that rises as you level, at a higher rate of increase than your gold per level increases. It is far more efficient to do this at lower levels (as we intended). Hmm? The average cost decreases per level. I worked out this table at one point: You don't die At APL you always play APL. Odd APLs you alternate, playing up first You don't craft, do perform checks, or any other means of gaining money You don't play any core specials or other mods with odd experience/gold totals You don't spend any money whatsoever except all your starting money Level 1: 3 mods. Total Gold = 1350 Level 2: 4 mods. Total Gold = 3150 Level 3: 5 mods. Total Gold = 6000 Level 4: 6 mods. Total Gold = 9900 Level 5: 7 mods. Total Gold = 15450 Level 6: 6 mods. Total Gold = 20850 Level 7: 7 mods. Total Gold = 28750 Level 8: 7 mods. Total Gold = 37850 Level 9: 7 mods. Total Gold = 50950 Level 10: 8 mods. Total Gold = 67050 Level 11: 7 mods. Total Gold = 87150 Level 12: 8 mods. Total Gold = 110250 Level 13: 8 mods. Total Gold = 146550 Level 14: 8 mods. Total Gold = 192750 Level 15: 7 mods. Total Gold = 252150 Which is just a hair behind the level totals in DMG. But there are things that will change that: Consumables = less money Replacing Items = less money Dying = less money at the start, more money after about 7th Crafting = more money XP Penalties = more mods = more money Doing Perform-type checks = slightly more money Generally playing up at odd levels = more money after 6th. This happens more often than not because if you have a party of 6, more people have to play up than down usually - as an extreme example, a party of 6 7th level characters have to play APL 8. So at 4th to 5th, I expect to get roughly 6450 gold and to retrain at 5th costs 500 gold or about 8% of my expected gold from that level. From 9th to 10th, I expect to get 16100 and it costs 1000. That's only 6%. From 14th to 15th, I expect to get 59400 and it costs 1500. Or 4%. If you're going to only retrain once, yes, it definitely pays to do it early, but it is effectively 'cheaper' to do it later. That said, I don't see it as broken - a lot of builds are going to want to do this to fix their low level feats taken due to the 3rd level rule or for DMM.
Britt 02-08-07, 12:40 PM	Sorry, I meant that you lose more total gold if you do it at higher levels vs. lower levels. Yes, it is a higher % of your gold at the time if you do it at lower levels, but you quickly make that up.
GrahamWills 02-08-07, 11:12 PM	I have mixed thoughts about it, but generally come down "pro". It definitely helps those people who changed their character concepts for roleplaying reasons, and regret earlier choices. This helps them the most of all people, and any thing that encourages roleplaying is a Good Thing, in my book. it does allow people to build more "continuously optimized characters" ... my monk loved deflect arrows once, but now fiery fists would be more fun, that sort of thing. But that seems a small thing. If you're into optimizing builds, it's just one more tweakiness. Using it to finesse skill points is iffier. I am considering it for my monk6/ranger2 with 4 skill points in know(religion). As a ranger, getting the extra 4 know(religion) points to make me qualify as a tattoed monk would be hard ... but heck, for 800gp/4tu that's a deal. I feel somewhat queasy about it, but then at least I'd already taken some points in the skill. If I had NO skill, and took 8 points over 2 levels, that might be too much to stomach. Overall, though, it seems too helpful to real roeplaying to disallow, and too little annoying to make extra rules for. Basically, a win. ------ Since I haven't said it in any other thread, congratulations on an excellent re-write. Not only are the decisions made logical, well-thought out and explained, but the format, improved language and general readability are vastly superior. Well done.
chesspiece 02-08-07, 11:48 PM	nevermind
solbergb 02-09-07, 09:30 AM	I'm pro on this one. What does it do #1 - reduces pressure for rebuilds as rules change #2 - consistent rules for what happens if a feat/whatever becomes closed #3 - lets players NOT preplan their entire build - some people really hate that approach to gaming, and lets them take advantage of AR access, letting the character's story influence their "build" to a much greater degree than it could before I think this is a positive thing for the game, although I admit to being astounded that the Circle had the courage to let it in.
Timlagor 02-09-07, 10:13 AM	I like it too but I would have added a proviso that any result of retraining could have been made 'from the ground up': mostly because the skill retraining is so darn tasty for PrC access issues.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-09-07, 10:15 AM	I'm pro on this one. What does it do #1 - reduces pressure for rebuilds as rules change #2 - consistent rules for what happens if a feat/whatever becomes closed #3 - lets players NOT preplan their entire build - some people really hate that approach to gaming, and lets them take advantage of AR access, letting the character's story influence their "build" to a much greater degree than it could before Openly breaks the rules on skill points.
Starfox_SFX 02-09-07, 10:44 AM	I'm pro on this one. What does it do #1 - reduces pressure for rebuilds as rules change #2 - consistent rules for what happens if a feat/whatever becomes closed #3 - lets players NOT preplan their entire build - some people really hate that approach to gaming, and lets them take advantage of AR access, letting the character's story influence their "build" to a much greater degree than it could before I think this is a positive thing for the game, although I admit to being astounded that the Circle had the courage to let it in. I had not thought about the ability to retool a character to take advantage of a limited PrC that becomes available, that is a good thing. Punishing someone with a TU cost and gold penalty because they took a feat or class that is subsequently banned is a really bad thing. This should not be considered an acceptable alternative to simply letting an individual replace a newly banned ability free of charge and at the moment it is banned rather than limping along to the next level before you can change it out.
chesspiece 02-09-07, 10:55 AM	I'm wondering if they'll allow Rebuild (not retrain) options as Author Only. For instance, there might be a module that gives a favour allowing reassignment of one class level - perhaps only into a specific class. Another module could be equivalent to a Change Race quest - potentially allowing PCs into a non-PHB race. (For some reason, I immediately suspect Zagyg's involvement.) It could be an interesting surprise.
bitznarf 02-09-07, 01:26 PM	I had not thought about the ability to retool a character to take advantage of a limited PrC that becomes available, that is a good thing. Punishing someone with a TU cost and gold penalty because they took a feat or class that is subsequently banned is a really bad thing. This should not be considered an acceptable alternative to simply letting an individual replace a newly banned ability free of charge and at the moment it is banned rather than limping along to the next level before you can change it out. I do believe that characters that have now banned choices (feats, spells, w/e else) get to freely retrain those choices so long as they follow the steps laid out in the PHB2. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Mommy was an Orc 02-09-07, 01:43 PM	I've noticed a few interesting problems with retraining that I think should be addressed: Do Cohorts have the ability to retrain - this happens before the new level, which means that after they retrain, their gold gets reset. i.e. Cohorts get to retrain for free, it seems, at the moment. Again, it happens right before the next level - so a Wizard 5 could choose to retrain when hitting 6th to get Skill Focus(Knowledge: Religion) in order to qualify for Divine Oracle. I'm a human Cleric - one of the feats I take at 1st level is Scribe Scroll. At 5th level, I retrain to turn it into Craft Wondrous. That seems like a big crafting advantage for divine casters. I'm a Pious Templar 3 at 9th level. I pick up Craft Wondrous as my 9th level feat and craft a Belt of Giant Strength +6. At level 10 I retrain to whatever feat it was I wanted in the first place. That's a savings of about 18K for 7 TUs and the retraining cost is 1K. Thoughts?
jstorrie 02-09-07, 01:49 PM	You can't retrain away fixed bonus feats, so I don't think that's a problem. Picking up a crafting feat and then training it away is something I'm not sure how to address at all.
Britt 02-09-07, 01:50 PM	I've noticed a few interesting problems with retraining that I think should be addressed: Do Cohorts have the ability to retrain - this happens before the new level, which means that after they retrain, their gold gets reset. i.e. Cohorts get to retrain for free, it seems, at the moment. Again, it happens right before the next level - so a Wizard 5 could choose to retrain when hitting 6th to get Skill Focus(Knowledge: Religion) in order to qualify for Divine Oracle. I'm a human Cleric - one of the feats I take at 1st level is Scribe Scroll. At 5th level, I retrain to turn it into Craft Wondrous. That seems like a big crafting advantage for divine casters. I'm a Pious Templar 3 at 9th level. I pick up Craft Wondrous as my 9th level feat and craft a Belt of Giant Strength +6. At level 10 I retrain to whatever feat it was I wanted in the first place. That's a savings of about 18K for 7 TUs and the retraining cost is 1K. 1. Cohorts are weird. They don't really need retraining do they? 2. You couldn't do that because you wouldn't have been able to take Divine Oracle until after the Retrain, which means you wouldn't have been able to select it as your next class before the Retrain, which means you wouldn't be able to Retrain into the prereqs. 3. It is a big advantage. 4. Yep, there will be some abuse of the system. Unfortunately, the abuse is far outweighed by the good.
dkay807 02-09-07, 01:53 PM	I've noticed a few interesting problems with retraining that I think should be addressed: Do Cohorts have the ability to retrain - this happens before the new level, which means that after they retrain, their gold gets reset. i.e. Cohorts get to retrain for free, it seems, at the moment. Again, it happens right before the next level - so a Wizard 5 could choose to retrain when hitting 6th to get Skill Focus(Knowledge: Religion) in order to qualify for Divine Oracle. I'm a human Cleric - one of the feats I take at 1st level is Scribe Scroll. At 5th level, I retrain to turn it into Craft Wondrous. That seems like a big crafting advantage for divine casters. I'm a Pious Templar 3 at 9th level. I pick up Craft Wondrous as my 9th level feat and craft a Belt of Giant Strength +6. At level 10 I retrain to whatever feat it was I wanted in the first place. That's a savings of about 18K for 7 TUs and the retraining cost is 1K. Thoughts? This is actually my largest concern regarding retraining. Allowing people to use Magic Item Creation feats and then ridding themselves of them once they have crafted what they wanted. I see this as something begging to be abused consistently. Britt, a response on this would be greatly appreciated.
dkay807 02-09-07, 01:54 PM	Looks like you beat me to the punch. Okie doke, I supposed we'll see how it goes!
sibyl 02-09-07, 03:37 PM	What I like about it is the ability to train away bad choices...like the Desert Fighting feat I took for my Favoured Soul that has never, ever come up in a single Bright Sands mod (but that's fish for another pie). I can now replace it with something *useful* and not be down a feat. Retraining skills might be helpful too - putting ranks in Use Rope, for example, and then never actually ever using it. Or remembering why ranks were put into it in the first place. Yes, there will be people abusing it. That's how certain people work (if I *can* take advantage of this rule, then I *must*!). I hope not too many do, however, because if they do I can see the Circle taking this option away, and that would be sad. I really welcome the chance to retrain throughout the year, and not just hold my breath and hope that the Circle would allow another rebuild some day (which is what I was doing regarding the ill-thought out Desert Fighter feat). So thank you.
MatteBlack 02-09-07, 03:47 PM	At first reaction I didn't like the concept thinking it was a total "respec" type option but, on further review, I think it should work well. Since the changes will be gradual and backed up by time and expenses supporting in-game activity it does have the story-breaking feel I feared it might. The small, but expensive, opportunity for abuse seems offset by allowing less powergaming oriented players make up for poor or uninformed decisions. I suspect it will help close the gap between the two groups of players. Lee
Swiftbrook 02-09-07, 03:55 PM	Yep, there will be some abuse of the system. Unfortunately, the abuse is far outweighed by the good. I completely agree. Thanks for the option. -Swiftbrook
arpster 02-09-07, 04:20 PM	I like the retraining option being introduced. I know a few people that stopped playing their character because when they first started playing they picked feats for roleplay purposes and found out the hard way that this is more or less a combat campaign. Granted there are roleplay areas but in those areas they didn't pick the correct feats to give themselves a chance to succeed. Anyway over all I am pleased with the new LGCS. Though at times I can see this turning into Magic Mart 2, though not as bad as it was in year 2. Mel
Mommy was an Orc 02-09-07, 04:55 PM	1. Cohorts are weird. They don't really need retraining do they? Sure - a good example of this is anything that is useful for a low level cohort, but not so useful for a higher level one. Say I'm retraining my 15 Int Cohort to get into Unseen Seer quickly via Rogue 1/Wizard 4 - eliminates cross-classing of skills. 2. You couldn't do that because you wouldn't have been able to take Divine Oracle until after the Retrain, which means you wouldn't have been able to select it as your next class before the Retrain, which means you wouldn't be able to Retrain into the prereqs. How so? The retrain happens before you level. In any case, you can still do it a level beforehand. I think this should be made clear in the LGCS. 3. It is a big advantage. 4. Yep, there will be some abuse of the system. Unfortunately, the abuse is far outweighed by the good. Why not make there be a higher charge to train in/out of a crafting feat? That's really where the abuse is going to happen.
Timlagor 02-09-07, 10:34 PM	How about: "If you lose a crafting Feat through retraining, you must pay half the value of all the items you crafted using that Feat in addition to the normal costs"? [ie the amount of money they saved with the Feat] Kills the abuse outright without stopping people rectifying their mistakes in that area. Adding it up could be rather a chore but they should have all their MIC sheets and if it's been used that much why are they retraining? I can still imagine people taking Craft Wand and/or Scroll for a couple of levels to get around the ridiculous tables but personally I have no problem with that and they would pay a significant cost to do so. There might also be some benefit in terms of regaining lost access for the occasional character but spending 8TUs and however much GP ought to be enough to hunt down the guy who would have sold it to you in the first place too.
Britt 02-09-07, 10:40 PM	We're talking about MIC retraining.
trollbill 02-10-07, 05:38 PM	Openly breaks the rules on skill points. How does it do that? The rules on retraining skills only allow you to trade ranks, not skill points spent on those ranks.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 06:15 PM	How does it do that? The rules on retraining skills only allow you to trade ranks, not skill points spent on those ranks. That's pretty much a distinction without a difference. It lets you take ranks acquired 'in class' at one level and assign them to skills that weren't class skills for that level. This lets you create characters with retraining that are impossible without it and in the process makes it possible to qualify for some PrCs with fewer levels in certain classes and/or less investement in Intelligence. It's probably not enough to be worth worrying about but it will be significant to a noticeable number of characters.
DerekSTheRed 02-10-07, 09:56 PM	Has anyone thought how retraining works with Meta-Orgs? Say the PrC I want to take isn't open but I can get access to it through a Meta-Org. Unfortunately, the Meta-Org requires ranks in skills that aren't optimal for my build. Now I can take those skills, qualify for the PrC, take a level in the Prc, leave the Meta-Org, and finally retrain the skill points to what I wanted originally. The only negative consequence is the enmity of the Meta-Org (usually). Retraining will definitely become a way to "work the system" in builds albeit with a cost involved. However, I still think the positives out weigh the negatives. Derek
LGMoses 02-10-07, 11:58 PM	I don't like the idea of the system being worked so easily. I hear their are positive benefits to this. What are they? Lets have someone list the pros/cons side by side to properly weigh the advantages/disadvantages. Currently, I think its just going to be a weigh for people to TOTALLY break the continuity of their characters and to grossly violate both the system and the spirit of the game. I see the Circle is trying to give an inch but too many peple are going to take MILES!!! :(