Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gwumph 03-20-07, 06:03 AM	Sorry folks this is going to be abit of a lengthy question. First: Darkness spell overrides a light spell. Second: Darkness spell vs Continual flame cancel each other out and normal light conditions happen. What happens if there are darkness and continual flame cancelling each other out and someone lights a Sundrod/torch/Light spell/Continual flame spell..... If the above light conditions work, would another darkness spell cancel them out again. Third: Deeper Darkness vs Daylight cancels each other out... Ok What happens for an Asherati body lamp??? Is it more powerful than a darkness spell (it gives off the same light radius as Daylight spell) What happens if a spell flicks off the body lamp, Can I flick it back on, when my turn comes around (there is no limit to the use of the body lamp) I am asking this since my Asherati character is tackling Drow in our next mod and want it cleared up, so we don't waste time discussing if it works or doesn't. opinions are welcome, Rules are even more welcome!! If you are citing a rule, please give document and page number. Thanks a bunch. Cheers Gwumph
jimmy_dowdall 03-20-07, 06:14 AM	highest spell level always wins out, if u are using an ability that duplicates a light or darkness spell the level of the spello is what counts not caster level or anything else i think.
Timlagor 03-20-07, 07:27 AM	I'm pretty sure that the light from an Asherati is natural and therefore has no standing against magical darkness. The spell doesn't turn it off: it just stops the light from it; an ordinary torch will continue to burn in an area of Darkness; it will just shed no light (within the area). If two spells cancel each other then any other spells in the area have their normal effect imo.
blood_kite 03-20-07, 11:02 AM	I remember having some arguements about this before and this looks like an excellent time to throw out some other questions. Darkness and Deeper Darkness both say they radiate shadowy illumination. Does this mean that if you cast it in a completely dark room you will now have shadowy illumination? Most GM's will probably say no, you sit in the dark with your magical dark. While I may be guessing, it seems the intent of the Darkness and Deeper Darkness spells is to reduce bright light to shadowy illumination but not to improve darkness to shadowy illumination. This would mean that if you bring your torch/lantern/asherati into an area of a Darkness or Deeper Darkness that they still illuminate just as far, but the area of magical darkness is at best shadowy illumination and may be dark if the light source doesn't extend that far. Did anything I just said make any sense? I remember having problems because we encountered a large area of magical darkness and our GM would only let characters with darkvision have the 20% miss chance. Everyone else had 50% because he was under the impression that nonmagical light sources could not improve total darkness to shadowy illumination in magical darkness.
King Kashue 03-20-07, 11:07 AM	Darkness and Deeper Darkness both say they radiate shadowy illumination. Does this mean that if you cast it in a completely dark room you will now have shadowy illumination? Most GM's will probably say no, you sit in the dark with your magical dark. While I may be guessing, it seems the intent of the Darkness and Deeper Darkness spells is to reduce bright light to shadowy illumination but not to improve darkness to shadowy illumination. The RAW does indeed say the room gets brighter, but since that's obviously a bit idiotic, most DMs don't judge it that way. Folks around here generally call the spell "Deeper Dimness" :D
Gwumph 03-20-07, 11:13 AM	I find the argument, that the body lamp is a natural light source similiar to a torch abit too simple. A mean you can make light radiate of 1 inch from your body to 60 feet away. You have the ability to make your light flare to to a point where creatures need to make a saving throw. All this would lead to me argue that it is a supernatural ability. Can anyone cite any rules on the above mentioned opinions
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 11:31 AM	The body lamp ability is supernatural, and therefore magical in nature. However, it is not given a spell level equivalent, and the DC of the dazzle ability is equivalent to that of a 0 level spell, therefore it makes sense that Darkness does supercede the body lamp ability, meaning the shadowy illumination remains.
Gwumph 03-20-07, 11:45 AM	right sort of Dazzle is a 0 level spell that is a once per day ability. Body lamp gives the exact same light radius as Daylight spell, Therefor body lamp is a spell equivilant of Daylight.
Zanzibax 03-20-07, 11:49 AM	right sort of Dazzle is a 0 level spell that is a once per day ability. Body lamp gives the exact same light radius as Daylight spell, Therefor body lamp is a spell equivilant of Daylight. A bit stronger than Daylight...I don't think Daylight can dazzle anyone.
blood_kite 03-20-07, 11:59 AM	I don't have Sandstorm near me. Isn't an Asherati's light ability adjustable from nothing up to 60 ft? I don't remember Daylight being adjustable like that.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 12:01 PM	right sort of Dazzle is a 0 level spell that is a once per day ability. Body lamp gives the exact same light radius as Daylight spell, Therefor body lamp is a spell equivilant of Daylight. Let's see, the dazzle ability is stronger than the normal body lamp. The dazzle ability appears to be the equivalent of a 0 level spell. Therefore the normal body lamp ability is even less powerful than that, which means it would certainly be negated by darkness. Also, the light produced by a body lamp is not equivalent to a daylight spell because in a daylight spell "Creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them while within the radius of this magical light." Whereas in the body lamp creatures do not recieve those penalties. Remember, the area of the bright light doesn't make a difference with respect to Darkness, it's the quality of the light that matters. You could have a 20ft radius roaring bon fire, which would be MUCH brighter than the body lamp ability, and it would be completely dimmed by a darkness spell.
Gwumph 03-20-07, 12:12 PM	Sorry I don't understand your reasoning Jay. By dazzle you mean equivlent to the Flare spell a 0 level spell. Thats one ability that asherati can do once per day. Now flare is not more powerful than Daylight which is a third level spell Asherati body lamp, has the exact same light radius as a Daylight spell. just because 1 ability has a saving throw (lousy at that DC10) doesn't mean it's more powerful. Anyways this solves nothing, Jay do you have a rule back up your opinion, which would help make group make a decision.
Gwumph 03-20-07, 12:18 PM	Jay you are not making sense here. Obviously a bonfire with a 20ft light radius would not be as bright as as the body lamp since it give 60 ft bright light illumnation. As for quality of the light, the Body lamp is a gift from a God. Its not like they have a fire inside or anything. Gestati gave asherati the ability to project light up to a 60 ft radius. It could be argued that body lamp is more powerful then daylight since it has no time limit and has the ability to sculpt its size.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 12:19 PM	Sorry I don't understand your reasoning Jay. By dazzle you mean equivlent to the Flare spell a 0 level spell. Thats one ability that asherati can do once per day. Now flare is not more powerful than Daylight which is a third level spell Asherati body lamp, has the exact same light radius as a Daylight spell. just because 1 ability has a saving throw (lousy at that DC10) doesn't mean it's more powerful. Anyways this solves nothing, Jay do you have a rule back up your opinion, which would help make group make a decision. I don't see what's so hard to understand. The radius of the light has nothing to do with how powerful an ability it is, so I don't see why anyone is even attempting to compare it in strength to daylight. It's the strength of the light that matters, not the area it affects. On a different line of reasoning, if the ability is not given a spell level equivalent, it is then not equivalent to a spell and therefore automatically negated. The light provided by the body lamp ability is bright light, but not as bright as full daylight. It's more similar to a sunrod with a larger radius than a daylight spell.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 12:22 PM	Jay you are not making sense here. Obviously a bonfire with a 20ft light radius would not be as bright as as the body lamp since it give 60 ft bright light illumnation. As for quality of the light, the Body lamp is a gift from a God. Its not like they have a fire inside or anything. Gestati gave asherati the ability to project light up to a 60 ft radius. It could be argued that body lamp is more powerful then daylight since it has no time limit and has the ability to sculpt its size. I don't mean the bonfire sheds light in a 20ft radius, I mean a 20ft radius area filled with a raging bonfire. A fire that big would shed light in a MUCH bigger area than the body lamp ability. And the source of the ability is irrelevant. No spell level equivalent stated, not equal to any spell, no effect against Darkness.
Gwumph 03-20-07, 12:35 PM	But you just made the argument that it was a supernatural ability. You also made the argument that the dazzle affect is a 0 lv spell. How did you come to that conclusion (that ability says nothing about spell level either) for that??? Sorry Jay But you are all over the place here, first you state it is a supernatural ability and that dazzle is same as a 0 lv spell Then you say quality of the source of light (i.e. where does it get it's power from) Then you state that neither of the above matter because no spell level is mentioned. Do you have any rules to back up your opinions?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 12:59 PM	But you just made the argument that it was a supernatural ability. You also made the argument that the dazzle affect is a 0 lv spell. How did you come to that conclusion (that ability says nothing about spell level either) for that??? Sorry Jay But you are all over the place here, first you state it is a supernatural ability and that dazzle is same as a 0 lv spell Then you say quality of the source of light (i.e. where does it get it's power from) Then you state that neither of the above matter because no spell level is mentioned. Do you have any rules to back up your opinions? None of these are opinions. It's all derived from simple analysis and comparison of the rules at hand. I'll go over my various arguments one by one. 1)Supernatural abilities are magical in nature, but do not usually equate to any spell levels. In an effort to estimate what spell level it might be equivalent to, I examined the DC of the save for the dazzle ability. The DC is 10+1/2 character level+CHA. With a base dc of 10, that makes it equivalent to a 0 level spell. If the maximum brightness is only equivalent to a 0 level spell, than the normal brightness must be less than that. There is also the comparison to the existing 0 level spell Flare, which has the same effect, except on a single creature. There is no reason whatsoever to compare the body lamp ability to a daylight spell, as the only thing they have in common is the same maximum radius. Which brings me to my next point. 2)You can't compare body lamp to a daylight spell, because they have nothing in common. Body lamp produces bright light, while Daylight produces light as bright as full daylight. Daylight specifically states that "Creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them while within the radius of this magical light.", while body lamp (Or any other light source for that matter) does not. The body lamp ability has more in common with a sunrod than with daylight. 3)Quality of the light. This is mostly supporting #2. I don't know why you are interpreting the quality of the light as having anything to do with the source of it. Body lamp produces bright light, meaning enough light to see clearly, but there is nothing special about it beyond that, unlike daylight which specifically is as bright as full daylight and imposes penalties on creatures with vulnerability to bright light. Another reason it is definately not equivalent. 4) Finally, the only thing that really matters in this matter, is the fact that while it may be similar to existing spells, body lamp in fact has no stated spell level equivalent, so therefore is not equivalent to a light spell of any level, and is therefore autotmatically negated. There's really no way around this one unless they release errata stating "For the purposes of interacting with Darkness spells, Body Lamp is the equivalent of an X level light spell." If they don't specifically say it IS equivalent to something, it's not. 1-3 are reasons it wouldn't work even without #4.
Timlagor 03-20-07, 03:27 PM	Real daylight from the sun lights a much bigger area than your puny asherati: it doesn't negate darkness. Any comparison to the daylight spell is completely baseless.
Gwumph 03-20-07, 10:57 PM	Sorry how so????? It effects the exact same area. Has the same shadowy illumination distance. If you read the Daylight spell carefully, all it says it effects beings with light sensitivety. Not Daylight sensitivity. A vampire is completely unaffected by the daylight spell, why? because it merely lights up an 60ft area brightly. So what do you do. You cast it on someone's helmet and walk around with a 60ft /360 degree light radius. If a being is light sensitive that means they take a massive -1 to attack rolls. Asherati body lamp.... you turn it on and it lights up a 60ft radius brightly for 360 degree's. So the claims that the daylight spell is "THAT" much brighter than a body lamp doesn't hold any ground. They both have the exact same effect, it doesn't say anywhere that they have a dim light for 60ft or anything like that.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 11:09 PM	Sorry how so????? It effects the exact same area. Has the same shadowy illumination distance. If you read the Daylight spell carefully, all it says it effects beings with light sensitivety. Not Daylight sensitivity. A vampire is completely unaffected by the daylight spell, why? because it merely lights up an 60ft area brightly. So what do you do. You cast it on someone's helmet and walk around with a 60ft /360 degree light radius. If a being is light sensitive that means they take a massive -1 to attack rolls. Asherati body lamp.... you turn it on and it lights up a 60ft radius brightly for 360 degree's. So the claims that the daylight spell is "THAT" much brighter than a body lamp doesn't hold any ground. They both have the exact same effect, it doesn't say anywhere that they have a dim light for 60ft or anything like that. You seem to be fixated on the fact that they have the same radius. You still aren't seeing how they are different in every other respect. Body lamp is bright illumination, Daylight is as bright as full daylight. Daylight doesn't destroy vampires because it is not actually true daylight, merely as bright as it. For a better example, think about sitting inside your house at night, with a light on in your room. The light is bright enough for you to see clearly. Meanwhile, if you go outside on a clear sunny day, you also see clearly, but it is MUCH brighter, to the point where if you go inside, even if there are lights, it still seems darker until your eyes adjust. And again, the comparison is meaningless anyway, because the body lamp ability does not state it is equivalent to any level light spell, and therefore has no power to counter Darkness.
Gwumph 03-21-07, 12:43 AM	Jay I understand your reasoning and in the real world if makes sense. But in game terms it doesn't. The light shed by a body lamp gives the exact same vision as a Daylight spell. It's lookswe are going to diagree on this. As for the no spell level thing mentioned. Do you have a book and page number you can cite for that rules so I can look it? Does anyone have any rules pertaining to this?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-21-07, 12:59 AM	Jay I understand your reasoning and in the real world if makes sense. But in game terms it doesn't. The light shed by a body lamp gives the exact same vision as a Daylight spell. It's lookswe are going to diagree on this. As for the no spell level thing mentioned. Do you have a book and page number you can cite for that rules so I can look it? Does anyone have any rules pertaining to this? Wow...just wow...I have repeated to you several times the specific difference between Daylight and Body Lamp IN GAME TERMS, as in TERMS SPECIFICALLY USED IN THE ENTRIES OF BOTH THE SPELL AND THE ABILITY. Ok...I'm gonna try and do this as simply as possible: Darkness Evocation [Darkness] Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2 Components: V, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Object touched Duration: 10 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness. Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness. If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed. Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level. Arcane Material Component: A bit of bat fur and either a drop of pitch or a piece of coal. Daylight Evocation [Light] Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Object touched Duration: 10 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No The object touched sheds light as bright as full daylight in a 60-foot radius, and dim light for an additional 60 feet beyond that. Creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them while within the radius of this magical light. Despite its name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by bright light. If daylight is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a light- proof covering, the spell’s effects are blocked until the covering is removed. Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect. Daylight counters or dispels any darkness spell of equal or lower level, such as darkness. Is Body Lamp a spell? No it is not. Does it say ANYWHERE in it's description that it is equivalent to a spell? No it does not. Therefore is has no ability to counteract Darkness, and any similarity to any spell is irrelevant.
Hariman 03-21-07, 02:11 AM	From the wording of the spells Daylight and Darkness, Body Glow would still work in the area of a Darkness spell. This is because: A: It is supernatural. B: The Darkness spell only states that it affects natural light sources and SPELLS of an equal or lower level. The consensus that I have heard on spells and granted effects from spells is that they only grant what is specifically in the spell description. Thus, because Darkness does not state that it counters/blocks supernatural light shedding abilities, it does not.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-21-07, 02:27 AM	From the wording of the spells Daylight and Darkness, Body Glow would still work in the area of a Darkness spell. This is because: A: It is supernatural. B: The Darkness spell only states that it affects natural light sources and SPELLS of an equal or lower level. The consensus that I have heard on spells and granted effects from spells is that they only grant what is specifically in the spell description. Thus, because Darkness does not state that it counters/blocks supernatural light shedding abilities, it does not. But by the same reasoning, Body Lamp does not say it negates Darkness. So since the Darkness is not negated, there is still the 20% miss chance from the shadowy illuimnation.
Hariman 03-21-07, 03:01 AM	But by the same reasoning, Body Lamp does not say it negates Darkness. So since the Darkness is not negated, there is still the 20% miss chance from the shadowy illumination. But the fact that Body Glow is SU trumps the lack of a specific statement of the ability to counter the darkness spell. Or will that undermine my prior argument? So the only solution that makes sense (If you are correct.) to me is to set the "Spell level equivalent" of Body Glow at 1st level. Which means that it probably isn't effective against any kind of darkness save natural darkness. Although if a Continual Flame spell is used to negate an area of Darkness (Or whichever spell continual flame negates), then the Body Glow would provide a light source to grant regular illumination in the natural darkness.
Timlagor 03-21-07, 08:27 AM	Sorry how so????? It effects the exact same area. Has the same shadowy illumination distance. If you read the Daylight spell carefully, all it says it effects beings with light sensitivety. Not Daylight sensitivity. OK I thought I'd gone out of my way to be totally clear when I wronte: "Real daylight from the sun". Please get over your fixation with the Daylight spell and read what I actually wrote. In case you still haven't got it the sin lights up half the planet (does D&D have planets?) at any given time. That is just very so slightly more than 60' radius... it's also completely incapable of dispelling a Darkness spell. The radius of the light has nothing whatsoever to do with its ability to counter or dispel a Darkness-type spell so please stop harping on about it.
Zanzibax 03-21-07, 08:35 AM	Let's see, the dazzle ability is stronger than the normal body lamp. The dazzle ability appears to be the equivalent of a 0 level spell. Therefore the normal body lamp ability is even less powerful than that, which means it would certainly be negated by darkness. Also, the light produced by a body lamp is not equivalent to a daylight spell because in a daylight spell "Creatures that take penalties in bright light also take them while within the radius of this magical light." Whereas in the body lamp creatures do not recieve those penalties. Remember, the area of the bright light doesn't make a difference with respect to Darkness, it's the quality of the light that matters. You could have a 20ft radius roaring bon fire, which would be MUCH brighter than the body lamp ability, and it would be completely dimmed by a darkness spell. If that was all the body lamp did, I couldn't disagree. However...the Daylight spell is cut and dried, non-adjustable, and can never dazzle anyone. The body lamp is as powerful a light as the Daylight spell...PLUS it is adjustable...PLUS it can dazzle. You aren't comparing a 3rd level spell to a power that duplicates a 0-level spell. You're comparing a 3rd level spell to a power that is unlimited in duration, (+level modifier) AND is adjustable (+level modifier) AND can dazzle (+level modifier) like a 0-level spell.
Zanzibax 03-21-07, 08:39 AM	3)Quality of the light. This is mostly supporting #2. I don't know why you are interpreting the quality of the light as having anything to do with the source of it. Body lamp produces bright light, meaning enough light to see clearly, but there is nothing special about it beyond that, unlike daylight which specifically is as bright as full daylight and imposes penalties on creatures with vulnerability to bright light. Another reason it is definately not equivalent. According to my understanding, the quality of the light determines it's area of effect from a single point.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-21-07, 12:49 PM	If that was all the body lamp did, I couldn't disagree. However...the Daylight spell is cut and dried, non-adjustable, and can never dazzle anyone. The body lamp is as powerful a light as the Daylight spell...PLUS it is adjustable...PLUS it can dazzle. You aren't comparing a 3rd level spell to a power that duplicates a 0-level spell. You're comparing a 3rd level spell to a power that is unlimited in duration, (+level modifier) AND is adjustable (+level modifier) AND can dazzle (+level modifier) like a 0-level spell. Just because they have the ability to use body lamp at will doesn't mean it is the equivalent of a higher level ability. Paladins have detect evil at will, but that doesn't make it anything more than a 1st level spell. The fact that it is adjustable is meaningless as well, because there is no spell equivalent to compare it too. The dazzle ability is the only thing that comes close to simulating a spell effect. According to my understanding, the quality of the light determines it's area of effect from a single point. That would be the power of the light. You can have a very bright light that illuminates a very tiny area, or a very dim light that illuminates a large area poorly. What I mean by quality is brightness on a scale of 1-10. 6 or higher is needed to see clearly and is considered bright illumination. Full daylight on on a clear sunny day would be a 10. The Daylight spell would be a 8-9, and the body lamp ability, as well as things like a sunrod or everburning torch are in the 6-7 range. The distinction IS supported by the rules by the fact that only natural daylight is strong enough to harm vampires, the Daylight spell is described as being as bright as full daylight and bright enough to impose penalties on creatures with light sensitivity but not strong enough to harm vampires, and body lamp and other "bright" light sources are only enough to see by with. And ultimately, there is still the ironclad fact that Body Lamp is not stated to be the equivalent of any level light spell, and therefore has no power against a Darkness spell. If Asherati actually had Daylight as a spell-like ability at will, they would probably have a +1 level adjustment.
Zanzibax 03-21-07, 01:59 PM	Just because they have the ability to use body lamp at will doesn't mean it is the equivalent of a higher level ability. Paladins have detect evil at will, but that doesn't make it anything more than a 1st level spell. The fact that it is adjustable is meaningless as well, because there is no spell equivalent to compare it too. The dazzle ability is the only thing that comes close to simulating a spell effect. Paladins can detect evil at will. It does not have the capability of also stunning evil or dazzle them...or an adjustible nature. I think you might have had the same problem with the Paladin's ability to detect evil as you do with the bodylamp, if it weren't specifically stated to be "as per the "Detect Evil Spell." The light itself simulates a spell effect...and it's supernatural...and it's adjustable (which *is* significant...a dynamic SCULPT SPELL)...AND it can also dazzle. That would be the power of the light. You can have a very bright light that illuminates a very tiny area, or a very dim light that illuminates a large area poorly. What I mean by quality is brightness on a scale of 1-10. 6 or higher is needed to see clearly and is considered bright illumination. Full daylight on on a clear sunny day would be a 10. The Daylight spell would be a 8-9, and the body lamp ability, There is no game mechanic for what you describe. The power of the light for a Daylight spell is the same no matter what...and it's the same brightness as full daylight on a clear sunny day as per the spell description...just like the Body Lamp in area of effect...though it may use less power (the casting can be over the whole area instead of a single point.)...or more power (the casting can be on a single point, smaller than the body lamp). as well as things like a sunrod or everburning torch are in the 6-7 range. The distinction IS supported by the rules by the fact that only natural daylight is strong enough to harm vampires, the Daylight spell is described as being as bright as full daylight and bright enough to impose penalties on creatures with light sensitivity but not strong enough to harm vampires, and body lamp and other "bright" light sources are only enough to see by with. The *brightness* of the light or "power" if you prefer does not matter with respect to vampires. The *source* of the light alone matters. Which is to say, on a party cloudy day, the dim daylight that comes through still kills vampires. And ultimately, there is still the ironclad fact that Body Lamp is not stated to be the equivalent of any level light spell, and therefore has no power against a Darkness spell. If Asherati actually had Daylight as a spell-like ability at will, they would probably have a +1 level adjustment. The description of the Body Lamp requires...at the very least...errata for clarification...because it is *superior* in description and by it's supernatural nature...to an ordinary "Daylight" spell.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-21-07, 02:09 PM	Paladins can detect evil at will. It does not have the capability of also stunning evil or dazzle them...or an adjustible nature. I think you might have had the same problem with the Paladin's ability to detect evil as you do with the bodylamp, if it weren't specifically stated to be "as per the "Detect Evil Spell." The light itself simulates a spell effect...and it's supernatural...and it's adjustable (which *is* significant...a dynamic SCULPT SPELL)...AND it can also dazzle. There is no game mechanic for what you describe. The power of the light for a Daylight spell is the same no matter what...and it's the same brightness as full daylight on a clear sunny day as per the spell description...just like the Body Lamp in area of effect...though it may use less power (the casting can be over the whole area instead of a single point.)...or more power (the casting can be on a single point, smaller than the body lamp). The *brightness* of the light or "power" if you prefer does not matter with respect to vampires. The *source* of the light alone matters. Which is to say, on a party cloudy day, the dim daylight that comes through still kills vampires. The description of the Body Lamp requires...at the very least...errata for clarification...because it is *superior* in description and by it's supernatural nature...to an ordinary "Daylight" spell. It's really quite a simple matter. Is body lamp a light spell? No it is not. It doesn't matter AT ALL what the body lamp ability does. It could illuminate the entire material plane, but that still doesn't make it a spell, so it still has no effect on Darkness.
Gwumph 03-22-07, 12:03 AM	Thank You Zanzibax for stating quite eloquently what I have been trying to say. Jay, As you have stated Body Lamp is a supernatural ability, so the whole no spell level doesn't seem to work. There are a tonne of monsters out there that have supernatural abilities, that make no mention of spells or spell levels, many monsters have the supernatural ability "immune to mind affects" Since it mentions no spell level are we to assume it is a 0lv spell and charm person would work...no We assume that it is on par with Mind blank, since that is the closest spell description that matches the ability. Why didn't they write that in?? maybe space, maybe cost who knows. My guess is they assumed, that we would tie it to the most similiar spell. My guess is for the body lamp that they made the same assumption and proceed to give info on how body lamp would work under sand leaving no space for further descriptions. Jay while your opinions have been interesting...........We are getting waaayy of track when you start describing a numeric value system for different types of light!!! It must be a home game rule, since it's no-where in the rule books. So lets stick to the rule-books and leave real world knowledge at the door. Thanks Gwumph
Ramacass 03-22-07, 12:17 AM	We're talking about the etternal struggle bettween light and darkness-spells. Body lamps, torches, sunrods, the Sun, etc just doesn't factor in-they are not spells. It doesn't matter how bright or cool or disliked by vampires or adjustable, even if you could use the body lamp to create multi colored, lava lamp, presentations (which nobody would argue isn't cooler than a daylight spell) it wouldn't matter because it's not a spell. That's straight from the darkness spell description. What I want to know is do light and darkness spells cancel eachother or just override eachother thus letting prevailing light conditions exist. Example, if a drow casts a darkness spell and I have an arcane continual light going-both 2nd level spells- prevailing light conditions prevail, but is that because the spells have just canceled eachother out meaning that I have now lost my continual flame and have to cast another one or are they are just temporarily canceling eachother out and my continual flame will turn back on once I've left the area. But now suppose if the drow then casts another darkness spell do all thw spells still all cancel eachother out, being that there is no trump spell-they are all 2nd level spells-or have the first darkness spell and my continual flame spell canceled themselves out and now the second darkness spell is functioning normally. Any ideas????
Jay_Ibero_911 03-22-07, 12:30 AM	Thank You Zanzibax for stating quite eloquently what I have been trying to say. Jay, As you have stated Body Lamp is a supernatural ability, so the whole no spell level doesn't seem to work. There are a tonne of monsters out there that have supernatural abilities, that make no mention of spells or spell levels, many monsters have the supernatural ability "immune to mind affects" Since it mentions no spell level are we to assume it is a 0lv spell and charm person would work...no We assume that it is on par with Mind blank, since that is the closest spell description that matches the ability. Why didn't they write that in?? maybe space, maybe cost who knows. My guess is they assumed, that we would tie it to the most similiar spell. My guess is for the body lamp that they made the same assumption and proceed to give info on how body lamp would work under sand leaving no space for further descriptions. Jay while your opinions have been interesting...........We are getting waaayy of track when you start describing a numeric value system for different types of light!!! It must be a home game rule, since it's no-where in the rule books. So lets stick to the rule-books and leave real world knowledge at the door. Thanks Gwumph Again, you are making completely unrelated comparisons. The supernatural ability "immune to mind affects" is just that. It doesn't NEED a level equivalent because it doesn't directly interact the way light and dark spells do. Light and dark spells SPECIFICALLY STATE that they counter or dispel opposite spells of equal or lower level. The "immune to mind affects" ability has no such clause limiting it to effects of a certain level. And your last statement is COMPLETELY hypocritical. All of my arguments have been right from the rulebooks. It is YOU who is going beyond the rule books and trying to equate a supernatural ability to a spell. If you think Body Lamp should be treated as a spell, then it would also have to be negated by a Globe of Invulnerability. But it's not, because it is not a spell, and therefore cannot counter or dispel Darkness spells. This is %100 rules as written. If you can't understand that, then that's a personal problem...
Ramacass 03-22-07, 12:44 AM	Thank You Zanzibax for stating quite eloquently what I have been trying to say. Jay, As you have stated Body Lamp is a supernatural ability, so the whole no spell level doesn't seem to work. There are a tonne of monsters out there that have supernatural abilities, that make no mention of spells or spell levels, many monsters have the supernatural ability "immune to mind affects" Since it mentions no spell level are we to assume it is a 0lv spell and charm person would work...no We assume that it is on par with Mind blank, since that is the closest spell description that matches the ability. Why didn't they write that in?? maybe space, maybe cost who knows. My guess is they assumed, that we would tie it to the most similiar spell. My guess is for the body lamp that they made the same assumption and proceed to give info on how body lamp would work under sand leaving no space for further descriptions. Jay while your opinions have been interesting...........We are getting waaayy of track when you start describing a numeric value system for different types of light!!! It must be a home game rule, since it's no-where in the rule books. So lets stick to the rule-books and leave real world knowledge at the door. Thanks Gwumph Maybe you are confusing supernatural and spell like abilities-not the same. Supernatural abilities are not spells. A dragon's fiery breath is a supernatural ability-It Does Not Have A Spell Level-it can not be stpped by a globe of invulnerability What is that Mindblank example? immune to mind effecting abilities has nothing to do with an equvilant spell. It's a supernatural ability, mind blank is a spell??? huh. What is the spell equivilant of the barbarians Rage ability? Are you trying to say it should have one? Well there is a third level wizards spell called Rage, does that mean that the barbarian's ability is equivilant to a 3rd level spell? What's it's caster level? can it be dispeled by dispel magic. Very slippery slope here gwumph. Things that are equivilant to spells say so in the text, period. Yes by all means lets stick to the rule books. The darkness spell is countered by light spells of a higher level. It's in the rulebook. What level is the body lamp? You can't argue to stay with the rule books and then argure something that's not in them.
Gwumph 03-22-07, 12:45 AM	All right Jay we are going leave it at this. And your last statement is COMPLETELY hypocritical. All of my arguments have been right from the rulebooks. Full daylight on on a clear sunny day would be a 10. The Daylight spell would be a 8-9, and the body lamp ability, as well as things like a sunrod or everburning torch are in the 6-7 range. If you can't understand that, then that's a personal problem... My personal problem is people who take these discussions personally and start flaming people. As for being hypocritical the above quotes speak for themselves. Jay if you think I am ignoring you from now on....I am, what you have to say no longer interests me. Gwumph
Ramacass 03-22-07, 01:48 AM	All right Jay we are going leave it at this. My personal problem is people who take these discussions personally and start flaming people. As for being hypocritical the above quotes speak for themselves. Jay if you think I am ignoring you from now on....I am, what you have to say no longer interests me. Gwumph Ok Gwumph but what about the arguments. How do you back up the your argument. You think abilities were meant to have spell level equivilents. What about the arguments presented in my post?
Gwumph 03-22-07, 03:47 AM	Well Rama I am not versed on on the Rage spells you speak of so no comment there. But yes supernatural ability means it is beyond natural, therefore rests in the realms of arcane/magical. So i would argue against classify that a torch and body lamp are a similiar source. Since one comes from a natural source (burning wood) and the other is a supernatural source (a god-given power). As for staying with in the rulebooks, you and I are arguing over interpretations of the books, not randomly assigning numbers to light sources that has no basis in any rule. Gwumph p.s. Ramacass if you look carefully at our posting, they were 1 minute apart, which means I had no chance to read what you wrote or reply to your arguments. So no offense intended
Timlagor 03-22-07, 08:34 AM	Anyone know where to find the "stupid arguments" thread?
TWG_Prometheus 03-22-07, 08:46 AM	Expect table variation. Seriously. The last relevant thing I read in this thread was that this was an area that needed clarification. The rules on how well Darkness affects SPELL sources of light and NATURAL sources of light is well-defined. How it affects SUPERNATURAL sources of light that ought to have a spell-level or caster-level equivalent for this purpose but don't is not well defined. For myself, I'm disinclined to allow a racial ability to overcome a second level spell, particularly since Asherati have no level adjustment. It's not meant to be an incredibly powerful ability. How far the light extends or how theoretically bright it can get has no bearing on the matter. But, that's just a Judge opinion, and that's all you're going to get.
King Kashue 03-22-07, 03:26 PM	Anyone know where to find the "stupid arguments" thread? Indeed...This may be the least game-affecting issue I've ever see go to personal comments... I mean, it's a goofy ability from a race few people play, and it's interaction with a single spell. I know we like getting worked up about trivial matters, but come on :D
Zanzibax 03-23-07, 09:22 AM	Anyone know where to find the "stupid arguments" thread? This isn't a stupid argument, actually. See...in a home campaign before Darkness became "Dimness", I crafted a tactic by which a Darkness spell and a Light spell over-lapped...and used this as a range barrier. The bad guys couldn't come at us until we were too close for them to be effective with ranged attacks...until they had passed through the leading edge of the Darkness spell. So argue it out and get it straight so I can determine how to alter tactics.
Ramacass 03-23-07, 09:49 AM	Ok so maybe this is a stupid question/topic and maybe I just can't make sense of the rules so can anyone help me? The description of the darkness spell says it counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lesser level. I imagine that the counter part means it can be used to "counter spell" and the dispel means if it's already in effect. Does that sound right guys? Does that mean if the radius of a continual light spell (arcane)and a darkness spell overlap at any point both spells are dispelled? Now the Deeper Darkness spell says something different, it throws this whole different element into the mix. It talks about temporarily negating the darkness caused by deeper darkness and the light from a daylight spell while the areas of effect overlap. Something not mentioned in the darkness spell. Which brings up the question does this also work for the darkness spell and a 2nd level light spell? Also it's not clear on what would happen if one were to bring a Daylight spell area of effect into more than one deeper darkness area of effects. Would prevailing light conditions exist being that is no "trump" spell or would the deeper darknesses win due to sheer number of spells. ie would the first deeper darkness spell and the daylight spell cancel eachother out thus letting the remaining deper darkness spells prevail of would they all just peacably overlap. The Deeper Darkness spell both states it "dispels" light spells of equal or lower level and then gives an example of it coexisting with a light spell of equal level? The effect that light and darkness spells have on eachother doesn't seem too cut and dry to me and minus the personal attacks and non-game mechanic arguments this seems like a pretty legitimate topic to discuss
Jay_Ibero_911 03-23-07, 01:31 PM	Ok so maybe this is a stupid question/topic and maybe I just can't make sense of the rules so can anyone help me? The description of the darkness spell says it counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lesser level. I imagine that the counter part means it can be used to "counter spell" and the dispel means if it's already in effect. Does that sound right guys? Does that mean if the radius of a continual light spell (arcane)and a darkness spell overlap at any point both spells are dispelled? Now the Deeper Darkness spell says something different, it throws this whole different element into the mix. It talks about temporarily negating the darkness caused by deeper darkness and the light from a daylight spell while the areas of effect overlap. Something not mentioned in the darkness spell. Which brings up the question does this also work for the darkness spell and a 2nd level light spell? Also it's not clear on what would happen if one were to bring a Daylight spell area of effect into more than one deeper darkness area of effects. Would prevailing light conditions exist being that is no "trump" spell or would the deeper darknesses win due to sheer number of spells. ie would the first deeper darkness spell and the daylight spell cancel eachother out thus letting the remaining deper darkness spells prevail of would they all just peacably overlap. The Deeper Darkness spell both states it "dispels" light spells of equal or lower level and then gives an example of it coexisting with a light spell of equal level? The effect that light and darkness spells have on eachother doesn't seem too cut and dry to me and minus the personal attacks and non-game mechanic arguments this seems like a pretty legitimate topic to discuss The counter+dispel part is as you understand it. If you ready an action to counterspell, and your target casts a darkness spell, you can use a light spell of equal or higher level to counter it. Alternately if there is a darkness spell in effect, you can cast a light spell of equal or higher level at the darkness spell itself to automatically dispel it. Lastly, as described in deeper darkness, with a light and dark spell already in effect, if brought into each other's area, the highest spell remains in effect, and the lower spell is neutralized as long as it remains in the area of the higher spell. If they are the same level, both are neutralized and ambient light conditions prevail. In the case of 2 darkness spells and one light spell of equal levels, the light spell can only negate one of the darkness spells, because in the process it is negated itself, making it unavailable to negate the 2nd darkness effect.
Ramacass 03-23-07, 09:55 PM	The counter+dispel part is as you understand it. If you ready an action to counterspell, and your target casts a darkness spell, you can use a light spell of equal or higher level to counter it. Alternately if there is a darkness spell in effect, you can cast a light spell of equal or higher level at the darkness spell itself to automatically dispel it. Lastly, as described in deeper darkness, with a light and dark spell already in effect, if brought into each other's area, the highest spell remains in effect, and the lower spell is neutralized as long as it remains in the area of the higher spell. If they are the same level, both are neutralized and ambient light conditions prevail. In the case of 2 darkness spells and one light spell of equal levels, the light spell can only negate one of the darkness spells, because in the process it is negated itself, making it unavailable to negate the 2nd darkness effect. Your explanation makes a lot of sense and is likely the correct one, but there are necissarily a couple of "leaps" that are not explained in the rules. 1) the darkness spell does not talk about overlaping areas of effect. 2) the two darkness one light spell example could be explained as the "no trump spell all area of effects are temporarily negated" because it is still counted as an area of effect of the light spell despite the fact that prevailing light conditions exist. That being said it's most likely your example is correct.