Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kjenks 09-15-06, 10:38 AM	Heal is a level 5 spell for an NPC class, the Adept from the DMG. Limited Wish can "Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you." Can a PC use Limited Wish to cast Heal in LG? Can an NPC do it?
chesspiece 09-15-06, 11:36 AM	It seems like the Adept class (along with the other NPC classes) is poorly defined for access purposes by the LGCS. The Character Generation Guidelines section prevents us from taking levels in it - since it's not in the PHB or the list of non-PHB Expanded Creation Options base classes. In the Sourcebook and Metagame Policy section has the following to say: "The current printing of the following books and their published errata are considered core books for the campaign: ... Dungeon Mater's Guide v.3.5 (DMG)" "New Base Classes. All non-core sourcebook character classes fall into one of the four categories." "Limited: Any base class not found on these lists from a source listed at the beginning of this chapter falls into the category" So - going only by the LGCS rules, I can see 3 possibilities. 1) Because the DMG is core and the New Base Classes don't define base classes from Core books (PHB & DMG), everyone has access to NPC classes (even though Character Generation says you can't taking levels in them). Your answers are Yes & Yes. 2) Because the NPC classes aren't listed, they're Limited. Even though the DMG isn't a "non-core sourcebook", it is a "source listed at the beginning of this chapter". Unless a PC gets access to the Adept class (or the spell from their spell list), your answers are No & Yes. Of course, this also means the PHB classes Limited, even though we're allowed to take levels in them through Character Generation. :confused: 3) Because the NPC classes are from a Core book and only "non-core sourcebook character classes" are defined, nobody can take NPC classes. (oops) Your answers would be No & No. Precedent of bad guys with 1 warrior level tells me this is incorrect. ;) I'd say 1) is the 'most correct' ruling. I think that the Circle should clarify this in the next LGCS and define whether NPC classes are Core / Limited / NPC Only. Until the chime in with a ruling, you're faced with table variation. Cheers, Stephen Martin
Sieylianna 09-15-06, 12:06 PM	I would go by the PHB listing of the spell level for various classes. Since the adept isn't included in this chart, the answers would be No and yes. Ed
kjenks 09-15-06, 12:29 PM	Can my PC scribe a scroll of Limited Wish then convince an NPC to activate it to cast Heal?
kenobi65 09-15-06, 02:00 PM	Can my PC scribe a scroll of Limited Wish then convince an NPC to activate it to cast Heal? If we're talking about an NPC Adept, no....because you scribed an arcane scroll of Limited Wish, and adepts cast divine spells (and don't have Limited Wish on their spell list anyway). So, the adept couldn't read it. If you hand it to an NPC wizard, I'd say you're running into "expect table variation" territory.
Ariante 09-17-06, 01:35 PM	If we're talking about an NPC Adept, no....because you scribed an arcane scroll of Limited Wish, and adepts cast divine spells (and don't have Limited Wish on their spell list anyway). So, the adept couldn't read it. If you hand it to an NPC wizard, I'd say you're running into "expect table variation" territory. Just cast rejuvination cocoon (SC), a 5th level Core druid spell.
Japangirl 09-21-06, 12:48 AM	It duplicates a heal spell, which is a 6th level divine spell and thus not castable using Limited Wish. Just because Adepts get it at 5th doesn't make it a 5th level spell, the Adept is just special. Because of that, I certainly wouldn't allow a wizard to do it at a table I ran and I would argue against anyone, even a party member, doing it at all. As has been pointed out previously, you can't hand a scroll of Limited Wish over to an NPC Adept so it's a moot point there.
JamesMaissen 09-21-06, 03:12 AM	It duplicates a heal spell, which is a 6th level divine spell and thus not castable using Limited Wish. Just because Adepts get it at 5th doesn't make it a 5th level spell, the Adept is just special. Because of that, I certainly wouldn't allow a wizard to do it at a table I ran and I would argue against anyone, even a party member, doing it at all. Umm.. I'm sorry but Heal is certainly a 5th level Adept spell. It's a 6th level Cleric spell AND a 7th level Druid spell. Heal doesn't have a fixed level in regards to 'divine' no spell does.. it will always vary by spell list. An adept could scribe a divine scroll of heal that a cleric (or druid) would be able to read and vice versa. -James
chesspiece 09-21-06, 08:42 AM	I don't see this as being any different than if Adepts had a unique spell that only appeared on their spell list. If Limited Wish can cast from the Adept list, than you can cast any of their spells. The same logic is required when looking at Domain lists (unique spells or spells with different levels) that aren't Limited / NPC Only / Restricted. Now, whether we're allowed to use the Adept spell list in LG without special access - that's the quandry.
kjenks 09-21-06, 02:10 PM	In the section about Limited Wish, LGCS, p. 47: "Any spell duplicated must come from a Core source or the character must have access to it in some fashion." LGCS, page 25: === The current printing of the following books and their published errata are considered core books for the campaign: • Players Handbook v.3.5 (PH) • Dungeon Master’s Guide v.3.5 (DMG) === Does the heal spell come from a Core source? Yes. Does the Adept class come from a Core source? Yes. SRD === A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things. • Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. • Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. === SRD === Adept Spell List Adepts choose their spells from the following list. [...] 5th Level: baleful polymorph, break enchantment, commune, heal, major creation, raise dead, true seeing, wall of stone. === Putting all of these things together, it sure looks to me as if a limited wish can duplicate a heal spell. Am I missing any rules?
chesspiece 09-21-06, 03:08 PM	The Adept class isn't necessarily Core - even though it comes from a Core book. For example, the Assassin and Red Wizard are NPC-Only and Restricted. Adept doesn't show up on any LGCS lists which means either: - It's Core since it comes from a Core book (like the PHB spells & base classes). In which case, PCs should be permitted to take levels in the NPC classes. - It's Limited or NPC Only since Adept isn't on any of the lists. Access to the PHB Base classes (plus 6 non-PHB classes) is given in Chapter 3: Character Generation Guidelines. Access to Base Classes from "non-core sourcebooks" is given in Chapter Five: Sourcebook and Metagame Policy. I haven't seen anywhere in the LGCS that explicitly gives access to DMG base classes. If you reread my post from the 15th, I think the rules are grey enough to justify either reading, so expect table variation until this is clarified by the Circle.
kjenks 09-21-06, 03:44 PM	I haven't seen anywhere in the LGCS that explicitly gives access to DMG base classes. I don't see anything in the PH or LG rules governing limited wish that require a PC to have access to another spellcasting class. Do you? I agree that I'll likely see table variation. I'm just trying to get a good understanding of the rules governing the situation. I don't want to lead a DM astray or end up on the wrong side of an argument. Usually, rejuvenation cocoon is good enough, and I've never had a problem with that one. But sometimes, only a heal will do the job.
chesspiece 09-21-06, 05:28 PM	I don't see anything in the PH or LG rules governing limited wish that require a PC to have access to another spellcasting class. Do you? The class & the spell list & the spells are granted access in a clear way. What I mean is, all PCs have access to the PHB classes Cleric, Druid, Wizard, etc. So it's no surprise that the PHB spells are generally accessible - using the spell levels from the spell lists of these classes. Do you have access to the Heal spell? Sure. It's Core PHB and shows up on the Cleric & Druid spell lists. But if you want access to Heal via the Adept spell list, it seems to me that you need access to the Adept class - otherwise that version of the spell doesn't exist for your PC. You need to gain access to the Heal spell in this different way. Note that I believe access and not taking levels is the important criteria. Taking a hypothetical case - what if a Prestige Class had Mass Heal as a 4th-level spell on their spell list? Let's assume the Circle (wisely) Restricts access to this class. I wouldn't let PCs access this 4th-level version of the spell. Why not? Because they don't have access to the P-Class and it's spell list. The LGCS wording for Core, non-PHB Base Classes is lacking in clarity. So I'd highlight the 2-3 relevant sentances and ask your Judge if you can have access to the Adept's spell list. In my opinion (using LGCS wording and LG precedent), the NPC classes should be treated the same as every other PHB class that you haven't taken levels in. YMMV.
kjenks 10-17-06, 10:56 AM	I'd like to see one of two slight changes to LGCS 596, page 47. If we want to restrict Limited Wish more than it is in the present rules, so that Limited Wish cannot be used to cast Limited spells unless the spellcaster has acccess to that spell... Change this: "Any spell duplicated must come from a Core source or the character must have access to it in some fashion." To this: "Any spell duplicated must be listed in the Core list in chapter 5 or the character must have access to it in some fashion." If we want to make it clear that Limited Wish can be used to duplicate Limited spells but restrict situations like using Limited Wish to cast Heal as an Adept, we should say so explicitly, like this... Change this: "Any spell duplicated must come from a Core source or the character must have access to it in some fashion." To this: "Either (a) the character must have campaign documentation for access to the spell duplicated or (b) the spell duplicated must meet all of the following criteria: - The spell duplicated must be Core or Limited (page 25) and - The spellcaster class of the spell duplicated must be a class that is Core or Limited (page 25) and - The level of the spell duplicated for the spellcaster class must meet the spell level restrictions of the Limited Wish spell (so player characters can't use Limited Wish to duplicate an Adept (DMG) casting Heal or to duplicate a Healer (MH) casting Stone to Flesh)."
kjenks 10-17-06, 11:57 AM	The current LGCS rule also seems to allow using a Limited Wish to cast spells from domains that meet the criteria, like duplicating Skyline Runner (Races of Destiny) as cast by a cleric with the City domain. If this wasn't intentional, it should be fixed.