Post/Author/DateTime	Post
raevyn001 04-23-07, 10:15 PM	Hail and Hellos! I'm playing my first spellcaster in the RPGA, and now that he's got a coin or two and a (Very) few XP to burn, I'm interested in making some scrolls. (Cedric is a level 2 Cleric and wants some utility scrolls on hand so it doesn't take him until the next day to find out what the scroll taken off this dead bad guy is [ie:why pray for Read Magic when you need Resistance, right?]). How many 0 or 1st level spells can be written to scrolls in one TU? I was planning on 4 lvl-1 and 6 lvl-0 scrolls, is this possible? Please help me calculate TU's required if the items being made are under 1000gp. Thank you, Be well in all things, Rave
Jay_Ibero_911 04-23-07, 10:21 PM	Hail and Hellos! I'm playing my first spellcaster in the RPGA, and now that he's got a coin or two and a (Very) few XP to burn, I'm interested in making some scrolls. (Cedric is a level 2 Cleric and wants some utility scrolls on hand so it doesn't take him until the next day to find out what the scroll taken off this dead bad guy is [ie:why pray for Read Magic when you need Resistance, right?]). How many 0 or 1st level spells can be written to scrolls in one TU? I was planning on 4 lvl-1 and 6 lvl-0 scrolls, is this possible? Please help me calculate TU's required if the items being made are under 1000gp. Thank you, Be well in all things, Rave It's a max of one item of up to 1000gp per day. However you can put multiple spells on each scroll, so long as you have enough slots to cast that many spells each day. So you can make 5 scrolls with 1 TU, and since you are a 2nd level cleric you can put up to 8 spells on each scroll, since thats the maximum number of slots you have right now.
JJeff 04-23-07, 10:41 PM	But given that the DMG only has (according to the Scroll table) scroll that contain up to 6 spells on it, 6 spells per scroll may be the limit. Ask your Local triad as to whether they have any ruling on the number of spells you have on a scroll. I know Perrenland has ruled that there can only be a maximum of 6 spells per scroll, based on the implied limit in the DMG.
raevyn001 04-23-07, 10:41 PM	Thanks Muchly on the info, Jay and JJeff. I've played D&D a long time, but the RPGA is new for me, and figuring out the "New Stats" like TU's can get me confused. The 30 spells this would allow for far surpasses Cedric's perceived need (but the rest of the party will apreciate my learning this!) Be well in all things, Rave
twells 04-24-07, 01:30 AM	I am at work right now, so I can only reference the SRD, which states: The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process. Nowhere in the SRD or LGCS have I found it to say that you can place multiple spells onto a single scroll and call that one item. What it does give you is the base cost of a scroll calculated by the spell level of the spell to be scribed on a scroll, and the minimum caster level; ergo, each spell is considered a "scroll" for the purpose of MIC. That would mean the maximum number of spells you can scribe is 5 (as long as they are each under 1,000 gp crafting cost), based on the minimum of one item per day, 5 days per TU. If I am incorrect, please feel free to enlighten me – I could use the extra crafting time.
Timlagor 04-24-07, 11:50 AM	But given that the DMG only has (according to the Scroll table) scroll that contain up to 6 spells on it, 6 spells per scroll may be the limit. Ask your Local triad as to whether they have any ruling on the number of spells you have on a scroll. I know Perrenland has ruled that there can only be a maximum of 6 spells per scroll, based on the implied limit in the DMG. It's probably not worth fighting too hard but the Triad has no authority to make such a ruling. Crafters are not in any way limitted to the random loot tables so the 1d6 in the DMG is completely irrelevant and the DMG gives not so much as a hint that there is any such limit.
raevyn001 04-24-07, 05:47 PM	Thank you Twells & Timlagor for the additional insight. I will prepare 2 MIC's to Friday's session, and whichever the GM goes for, I'll use. (One with 5 scrolls equalling 30 spells, and the other with 5 scrolls equalling 5 spells) Any RPGA DM's, WotC Folk, or RPGA Circle members can also feel free to answer this if you see it!! I'd prefer to NOT BE CHEATING!!! LOL Everyone's help here is very muchly appreciated Be well! Rave
Munchausen 04-24-07, 08:59 PM	I too, have played RPGA for quite a while. I finally decided to make a Favored Soul. Reading all the rules for creating items (from 596 CY and 597 CY plus the DMG) I too came to a conclusion that each day of creating a scroll (1st lvl cure light wounds) would be 1/5 of a TU, which should = 5 scrolls each with one spell of cure light wounds (which after all the math is done would be 63gp spent, 5 xp and 1 TU). I have the sheet to the DM, he looked it over, and signed it. Now if it was where we got a total of 30 spells, then i would think EVERY caster would have scribe scoll. Since the MIC has only a space for 5 items, I would think that the idea for scrolls is for 1 TU you can make 5 scrolls with 1 spell on each of them. Also I have not read anything about placing more than 1 spell on a scroll (only thing is on the DMG if you find a scroll then you roll to see how many) but it seems that LG does not follow that (Nor do I recall any Lg adventure that offers a scroll with more than 1 spell) I think that the LG/RPGA/Triads should go more indepth in creating scrolls (597CY is very vague). Making other items seems to be normal/ok (look at the example on 596 and see that the scroll has only 1 spell, not many) I could be way wrong.. but I have a strong hunch that the above is correct.
bitznarf 04-24-07, 10:37 PM	In 596 it was specially limited to 1 spell per scroll. That has been removed from the 597 rule set, thus we revert back to core, which allows for multiple spells per scroll.
Mithreinmaethor 04-25-07, 03:25 AM	But I think that you would get 5 spells on the 1 scroll for the 1 TU. Not 6 spells per scroll times 1/5 = 30 spells.
JJeff 04-25-07, 04:13 AM	The problem is that a scroll is an item, a spell is not an item. 5 days of crafting costs 1 TU and you are allowed to craft as many items in those 5 days that fit into those 5 days. The Core Rules state: "Scribing a scroll requires one day per each 1,000 gp of the base price. " IF you can scribe more than 1 spell on a scroll, as long as the combined cost of the spells on the scroll is less than or equal to 1000gp, it will take only 1 day and thus 0.2 TU. This bascially allows (if we can scribe more than 1 spell on a scroll) 40 1st level spells (40 x 25gp = 1000gp), if you actually had that many slots in a day, or 6 2nd level spells (6 x 150gp = 900gp) and 4 1st level spells (4x25gp=100gp)...etc. Until the Circle says something.... we are following the Core Rules. And the Perrenland Traid is just declaring that they suggest we limit to 6 spells on a scroll maximum lest we go overboard.
Munchausen 04-25-07, 09:57 AM	Ahh my error. My lvl 2 favored soul does 5 lvl 1 spells a day. Still if it is allowed to max 6 spells per scroll.. then i think that could be way over powering. Really though this should be clarified ASAP. It seems that there are differ people on differ pages on how to create a scroll. If Triads do it all differ ways then that will lead to confusion. Either way it is going to be a mess if people did it more than 1 spell per scroll.. for then they have to go back and recalculate everything from that AR on to the present.. and if you can put more than 1 on a scroll, then I can see almost every caster taking the scribe scroll feat. From 596CY to 597CY they really cut alot out.
JamesMaissen 04-25-07, 09:58 AM	Now if it was where we got a total of 30 spells, then i would think EVERY caster would have scribe scoll. Since the MIC has only a space for 5 items, I would think that the idea for scrolls is for 1 TU you can make 5 scrolls with 1 spell on each of them. A few things here: First, scribe scroll will at best save you 1/2 the gold you would spend on scrolls. This is nowhere near the cash that craft wondrous items will save you. So it's not broken, overboard or even out of line. If anything it only brings the feat up to the usable level and smoothes out the usefulness of scribing lower level vs mid level spells. Second, the MIC sheets are horrible. They direly need revising, and have needed it from their inception. They have a place to write the senario that you made the item HOW many times?? Trying to discern rules from them is pure folly. Not to mention that the rules were different when they were designed. Finally, there is no 6 spells per scroll limit. This is a wierd artifact of using the random item tables for purchase access that people think that there are some rules hidden within them. There are not. They are also riddled with errors and omissions. I don't know why they are used for any purpose, but trying to divine rules from them is doomed to failure. -James
Timlagor 04-25-07, 10:24 AM	This really is very silly. There used to be a rule that you could only craft one spell per scroll in LG. That rule no longer exists. There simply isn't any valid basis for refusing a scroll with multiple spells. Limitting it to 6 is unfounded but not quite so blatantly wrong as limitting it to one since the LGCS explicitly mentions the existance of scrolls with up to 6 spells on them. It is also not even slightly overpowering. The only difference between this and the system with the extra restriction we had last year is the number of TUs that must be spent. And again if Triads do it different ways then it's because the triads are BREAKING THE RULES.
Jay_Ibero_911 04-25-07, 12:17 PM	It should also be noted that even if there is no maximum on the number of spells you can put on a scroll, it is still limited by the crafter's spells per day, and it's only slightly cheaper than buying a wand, and less versatile because only casters of your type can use it rather than anyone with the spell on their list...so it's definately not "broken"...
Mithreinmaethor 04-25-07, 03:09 PM	From the FAQ Question: According to the rules, creating a magic item takes one day per 1,000 gp in its base cost, with a minimum of one day. The random scroll generation charts in the Dungeon Master’s Guide state that a scroll could have up to six spells on it. Does this mean that when I create a scroll I can place six spells on it? Does it count as one scroll or six for purposes of item creation (in other words, should it take one day or six)? Answer:A scroll with multiple spells counts as a single item for the purpose of determining the time to create it. A divine scroll with six castings of cure light wounds (market price 150 gp) would take 1 day to scribe; a divine scroll with six castings of heal (market price 9,900 gp) would take 10 days to scribe. You’d need to expend (and prepare, if that’s required by your class) the spell once for each time it appears on the scroll. The act of scribing cure light wounds the first time onto a scroll expends cure light wounds, which means you’d need to have another one prepared to scribe it again. It would appear that the magic number is 6.
JamesMaissen 04-25-07, 03:39 PM	From the FAQ It would appear that the magic number is 6. No, just that 6 was used in the example. The magic number is 1000gp per day and the number of spells that you can cast during that day. Those would be the core rules. The LGCS doesn't make an exception to those core rules so they are the ones that are in place. -James
Mithreinmaethor 04-25-07, 03:59 PM	Ok so that is the example they chose. Per the SRD: Physical Description: A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8 1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8 1/2 inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each extra spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8. Dont be surprised when you whip out that 6 ft or longer scroll that a monster doesnt see it, and uses magic or a weapon to sunder your scroll and render it useless. No, just that 6 was used in the example. The magic number is 1000gp per day and the number of spells that you can cast during that day. Those would be the core rules. The LGCS doesn't make an exception to those core rules so they are the ones that are in place. -James
JamesMaissen 04-25-07, 04:24 PM	Dont be surprised when you whip out that 6 ft or longer scroll that a monster doesnt see it, and uses magic or a weapon to sunder your scroll and render it useless. I would hope that the monster being played by the judge would act according to it's own motives and not reflect a judge disagreeing with an item or ability my PC or another's might have that they don't think should be that way. I, frankly, don't understand the hostility some people have taken with regard to multiple spell scrolls. It's simply not overpowered, and frankly is what the core rules have allowed from the beginning absent a campaign rule against it. Now I've encountered and observed a category of bad judge in my travels that these actions seem to fall in with however. They confuse their role in LG with that of a DM in a home campaign. Where a DM will and should choose which rules apply to a home campaign, in LG that is not the role of the judge.. that is the role of the Circle (and even that is limited in this regard). The tendency seems to then be to view such legitimate actions as 'abuse' which is then followed by a good amount of metagaming and subsequent contortions to 'punish' those 'asking for it'. All in all it is not a good experience. But it is also not one that you as a player can avoid, as these judges will be VERY random as to what they will 'allow' vs 'not allow'. The winning move is simply to find a good judge. -James
Mithreinmaethor 04-25-07, 05:17 PM	I am not sure where you are sensing hostility. Maybe you are just overly sensitive or overly combative, I dont know. And I dont think (without rereading all the posts) where anyone felt it was overpowered. The FAQ quote I posted above has been in the FAQ for over a year now. Just now has anyone in LG had a need to ask this question, since previously it was not allowed. And any intelligent monster that has experience with spell casters is normally going to single out the caster if it can anyhow. Plopping out a 6' plus long scroll is a good way to garner that attention, and is a good way to do away with an investment you have made. Especially if you are casting offensive spells from said scroll. At combats end and people need healing and you whip out said scroll with 10 CLW's you arent gonna have a problem. I would hope that the monster being played by the judge would act according to it's own motives and not reflect a judge disagreeing with an item or ability my PC or another's might have that they don't think should be that way. I, frankly, don't understand the hostility some people have taken with regard to multiple spell scrolls. It's simply not overpowered, and frankly is what the core rules have allowed from the beginning absent a campaign rule against it. Now I've encountered and observed a category of bad judge in my travels that these actions seem to fall in with however. They confuse their role in LG with that of a DM in a home campaign. Where a DM will and should choose which rules apply to a home campaign, in LG that is not the role of the judge.. that is the role of the Circle (and even that is limited in this regard). The tendency seems to then be to view such legitimate actions as 'abuse' which is then followed by a good amount of metagaming and subsequent contortions to 'punish' those 'asking for it'. All in all it is not a good experience. But it is also not one that you as a player can avoid, as these judges will be VERY random as to what they will 'allow' vs 'not allow'. The winning move is simply to find a good judge. -James
raevyn001 04-25-07, 05:19 PM	Hail, Everyone! Wow!! I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest! I talked with a WotC moderator last night in chat and there is definately no limit on the number of spells that can fit on one scroll. That knowledge aquired, Cedric CAN make scrolls with 8 spells per scroll. I am sticking with the 6 spells per scroll, one scroll per day for 5 days to bring to the Event Friday, mostly because I'm not in the mood to redo the math to figure the cost in gp and XP (Lazy people Rule!!). In my experience so far (which is little, admittedly), the DM's in our local group are at least a notch or five above par (not because they allow for "questionable" stuff, but because they run a great game and are fair in their judgements). If they allow the 30 spell total, that's cool; if they don't, then I'm sure a 5 spell total will be acceptable, and I will accept their ruling. I don't figure there's much need to bug the Triad over some newbie figuring out how many scrolls a Clr2 can make! My fellow players are great as well. I don't foresee any hassle with mosters tearing a long scroll out of Cedric's hands, as the rest of the party looks out for their healer and keeps the baddies off him (and Ced wouldn't be whipping out a scroll right next to an enemy and provoking AoO's!) He has a wand to heal his friends during combat, and the scrolls are for those utility spells that eat up good combat spell slots (I repeat from 1st post: No point preparing Read Magic when what you need is Resistance!) I do appreciate all the input. There are great points made on both sides of the "argument", and I'm sure that when the DM reads it he will take it all into consideration. Thank Yous to All, Be well in all things, Rave
Britt 04-25-07, 06:36 PM	No offense to the moderators here, but they have no authoritative standing in D&D or LG; they are employed (or volunteer, no idea which) to keep an eye on the boards, AFAIK, not because they are authoritative sources for D&D information. Even answers from WotC Customer Service, which are more reliable than a moderator, are not binding in LG. Can you have more than 1 spell on a scroll? The charts in the DMG and the entries in the FAQ conclusively state that they exist. The only way to create them would be through Scribe Scroll or some long-lost method of magic item creation, which is not very likely. The intent seems very clear that you can scribe more than 1 spell on a scroll. Is there an upper limit? There is no answer to this in the rules and very little indication of intent. As I have said before, I recommend limiting scrolls to 6 or fewer spells, just to be safe.
JamesMaissen 04-25-07, 09:21 PM	And any intelligent monster that has experience with spell casters is normally going to single out the caster if it can anyhow. Plopping out a 6' plus long scroll is a good way to garner that attention, and is a good way to do away with an investment you have made. If you didn't mean it as hostile then my appologies as I, indeed, did take it that way as I don't see how such a scroll is anything special. I don't see it garnering more attention than a potion or alchemicals at someone's belt, wand in hand, or the like. But as to how smart that is to do would depend on how much the monster thinks it will accomplish instead of simply smashing the wizard holding the item in question. As a side note I recall a year 2 battle interactive with a bad guy designed around sundering. He did enough damage to kill my PC more than twice over with the damage he did sundering. -James
Timlagor 04-26-07, 01:12 PM	I'd like to add to my previous comments that a GM can rule that finding a particular spell on an unusually large scroll takes extra time.
redgamer 04-26-07, 01:51 PM	All allowing extra spells per scroll does is let someone craft a marginally less useful item (compared to simply crafting more scrolls) to save TUs. Letting characters save TUs is a good thing IMO. Scribe scroll is in no way overpowered except possibly for a character's first level or two. If someone wants to burn dozens of scrolls to overpower an APL 2 mod I think they deserve at worse a funny look, certaintly not rules adjustment to try to prevent that.
bitznarf 04-26-07, 04:19 PM	Ah hah! From todays FAQ... Can my wizard craft more than one item in a day if the total cost to create the items is no more than 1,000 gp? No. All items take at least one day to craft, so you can’t combine multiple cheap items into a single day’s work. A small loophole to this rule is the scroll with multiple spells, which counts as a single item. That should be enough for most doubters.
JJeff 04-26-07, 09:00 PM	Thanks Bitznarf, But I think the problem is convincing people that since LG doesn't limit number of spells per scroll anymore (they previously did for those that don't know), we use core rules and not stick to old rulings that don't exist anymore And the "suggested" number so far is 6 though I think there's no official (Core Book ruling) number as of yet
raevyn001 04-26-07, 10:47 PM	Hail all! WooHoo!!! WotC Heard my call!! I'm all set for the game tomorrow, and send much gratitude to Bitznarf for his/her thinking to post that here. Thank yous to all! Be well in all things, Rave
Mithreinmaethor 04-27-07, 03:58 AM	Gee I posted the FAQ ruling 10 posts before Biz's, where is my love :) Also realize that the scroll is 1 extra foot long per spell past 1 on it :)
Madfox11 04-27-07, 09:26 AM	I don't see it garnering more attention than a potion or alchemicals at someone's belt, wand in hand, or the like. But as to how smart that is to do would depend on how much the monster thinks it will accomplish instead of simply smashing the wizard holding the item in question. Yep, and I have targeted potions, alchemical items and scrolls when the PCs were foolish enough to trigger an AoO with these. Come on, an AoO *might* kill the PCs, but since the PC risks the AoO it is very unlikely to do so. On the other hand, the chance of destroying the item is considerable and hence you are much more likely to disrupt whatever nasty the opponent is planning to do. Besides, it doesn't even cost you loot since if you did not sunder it, the PC would use it. Of course, it does assume the monster is smart enough to realize the inherent threat in potions and scrolls ;) Recently I even decided to try and sunder a wand the PC kept using to cure a PC. Sure, I could have just finished off the downed PC, but the opponent would have loved a life victim for sacrifice. Luckily for the PCs the NPC missed...
raevyn001 04-27-07, 02:56 PM	Hail!! I'm sorry, Mithreinmaethor! Many thanks also to you. You posed good questions and inspired many thoughtful replies. Hat's off to ya! Be well in all things, Rave
Mystical_Tutor 05-01-07, 04:55 PM	the DM's in our local group are at least a notch or five above par (not because they allow for "questionable" stuff, but because they run a great game and are fair in their judgements)... My fellow players are great as well. I love hearing that! Hold those memories tight for the time you run into a misguided GM.. And I hope you never do. Though I think that with your attitude: If they allow the 30 spell total, that's cool; if they don't, then I'm sure a 5 spell total will be acceptable, and I will accept their ruling. You are making a large contribution to a positive attitude on their parts. There is a direct relation between GM and player attitudes. After all we are all human.