Manyshot Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Manyshot Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DarkKnight
07-09-07, 03:02 AM Ok, I was reading through the description of Manyshot and I have a question on it. It says, specifically, that precision based damage (like point blank shot) is only applied to the first arrow. What about magic damage, such as that from a flaming burst enhancement or a holy enhancement? Do these magic damage types also apply to the additional arrows that are fired?

If not where does it say this, the FAQ or somewhere else?
JJeff
07-09-07, 03:08 AM Magic damage types like Flaming, holy, etc will apply to the additional arrows. The only exception is the precision, since it is clearly stated as the exception.
LachlarlanIII
07-09-07, 11:33 AM I don't believe PBS is considered precision based damage.

Precision based damage is normally that from Sneak Attack and Skirmish.

But I could be wrong.
DarkKnight
07-09-07, 11:53 AM I don't believe PBS is considered precision based damage.

Precision based damage is normally that from Sneak Attack and Skirmish.

But I could be wrong.

It is as you have to be with in 30' of the target to use it. Same as Sneak Attack with a ranged weapon and the Order of the Bow Initiate's Close Combat Shot or whatever it's called.

Favored Enemy damage has been ruled as NOT precision based damage.
trollbill
07-09-07, 03:22 PM It is as you have to be with in 30' of the target to use it. Same as Sneak Attack with a ranged weapon and the Order of the Bow Initiate's Close Combat Shot or whatever it's called.

Favored Enemy damage has been ruled as NOT precision based damage.

Point-blank Shot was listed as Precision damage in 3.0. No such reference is made regarding this in 3.5. In fact, 3.5 seems to have mostly abandoned the term 'precision damage.' Nor does it state anywhere in the 3.5 rules that Point-blank Shot has any restrictions other than a 30-ft. range, i.e. doesn't work against creatures immune to critical hits, etc.
DarkKnight
07-10-07, 03:09 AM Point-blank Shot was listed as Precision damage in 3.0. No such reference is made regarding this in 3.5. In fact, 3.5 seems to have mostly abandoned the term 'precision damage.' Nor does it state anywhere in the 3.5 rules that Point-blank Shot has any restrictions other than a 30-ft. range, i.e. doesn't work against creatures immune to critical hits, etc.

True that it doesn't specifically say that it's "precision damage" it is STRONGLY implied though. First, Point Blank Shot is part of the Precise Shot feat tree. Second, you have to be within 30' like with a rogue's Sneak Attack ability.

The FAQ is somewhat unclear on this as well though, it lists three specific examples of "precision damage", Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and Sudden Strike. It then goes on to say that it's best to err on the conservative side when making a judgment call.

So while it's not 100% clear one way or the other, I'd still play that it's precision damage and would rule that at any table I ran.
trollbill
07-10-07, 10:29 AM True that it doesn't specifically say that it's "precision damage" it is STRONGLY implied though. First, Point Blank Shot is part of the Precise Shot feat tree. Second, you have to be within 30' like with a rogue's Sneak Attack ability.

I agree there is an implication, but not that it is a strong one. First of all, Point-blank Shot is the prereq for ALL archery feats, not just the precision based ones, so that is an irrelavent arguement. The 30' range limit could be interpreted as an implication, but you could also interpret it to simply fit within the title of the feat. You can't exactly call it "Point-blank" Shot if it works at all ranges. The flavor text for the feat does also mention the attack is more precise, but the same could easily be said for a shot made by someone with a higher BAB.

Considering the effort the designers have made to point out what types of damages are precision in all other cases, I feel the implication is more strongly towards it not being that way.
LachlarlanIII
07-10-07, 10:44 AM I don't believe undead, constructs, plants, etc. are immune to the extra damage from Point Blank Shot.

That right there gives strong evidence that Point Blank Shot is not precision based.

It could be argued that the extra damage is because there is still sufficient velocity of a projectile fired/thrown at 30 ft. that it has a stronger punch.
Maesto
07-10-07, 10:57 AM The argument about this being, of course, about the 1 extra point of damage you get from manyshot if PBS applies to all your arrows (or two extra points, if you've got a BAB of 11)?

Come on guys, take the conservative route, then nobody can argue against you. At least, nobody can argue that you're getting more benefit than you should be. It's what I do.
bitznarf
07-10-07, 03:29 PM But why limit yourself needlessly Maesto? Why aim for a lower target? Why accept less than you should get? Rather than assume that the DM will rule one way, find out which way the DM rules and use that. Shortchanging yourself because some other DM rules the more restricive way doesn't make sense to me.
DroidTrooper
07-10-07, 03:53 PM The argument about this being, of course, about the 1 extra point of damage you get from manyshot if PBS applies to all your arrows (or two extra points, if you've got a BAB of 11)?

Come on guys, take the conservative route, then nobody can argue against you. At least, nobody can argue that you're getting more benefit than you should be. It's what I do.

Well in terms of multishot it might be only 1 point of damage that occurs rather infrequently as multishot is not that popular of a feat. The base issue of point blank shot takes effect on a high percentage all ranged attacks. Ruling that PBS is percision based, and thus has no damage against anything without a discernable anatomy (undead, elementals, constructs, etc.) represents about a 10% reduction in damage per arrow.
Maesto
07-11-07, 12:49 AM Well in terms of multishot it might be only 1 point of damage that occurs rather infrequently as multishot is not that popular of a feat. The base issue of point blank shot takes effect on a high percentage all ranged attacks. Ruling that PBS is percision based, and thus has no damage against anything without a discernable anatomy (undead, elementals, constructs, etc.) represents about a 10% reduction in damage per arrow.

Ah, now that I disagree with. Note that under constructs and undead and elementals, it just says "not subject to critical hits". Now, sneak attack (etc) says that it doesn't work against critters not subject to critical hits, but PBS just says "More damage for you".

With regards to why I'm limiting myself? Well, the same applies to all aspects of the game, especially those involving money. Less arguments is a good thing; there's enough arguing that it doesn't really matter, and I'm happy to limit myself over 1 or 2 points of damage for a feat that I barely use anyway.

Jolyon
boolean
07-11-07, 01:57 PM FWIW, Complete Arcane says that the damage bonus from PBS only applies once to spells like Scorching Ray. This isn't conclusive proof that PBS damage is 'precision damage', but it does make the ruling of 'PBS once per Manyshot' more consistent overall.
DarkKnight
07-12-07, 02:01 PM FWIW, Complete Arcane says that the damage bonus from PBS only applies once to spells like Scorching Ray. This isn't conclusive proof that PBS damage is 'precision damage', but it does make the ruling of 'PBS once per Manyshot' more consistent overall.

Thanks, I knew I saw something like this somewhere but I could remember what it was in regards to.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarkKnight 07-09-07, 03:02 AM	Ok, I was reading through the description of Manyshot and I have a question on it. It says, specifically, that precision based damage (like point blank shot) is only applied to the first arrow. What about magic damage, such as that from a flaming burst enhancement or a holy enhancement? Do these magic damage types also apply to the additional arrows that are fired? If not where does it say this, the FAQ or somewhere else?
JJeff 07-09-07, 03:08 AM	Magic damage types like Flaming, holy, etc will apply to the additional arrows. The only exception is the precision, since it is clearly stated as the exception.
LachlarlanIII 07-09-07, 11:33 AM	I don't believe PBS is considered precision based damage. Precision based damage is normally that from Sneak Attack and Skirmish. But I could be wrong.
DarkKnight 07-09-07, 11:53 AM	I don't believe PBS is considered precision based damage. Precision based damage is normally that from Sneak Attack and Skirmish. But I could be wrong. It is as you have to be with in 30' of the target to use it. Same as Sneak Attack with a ranged weapon and the Order of the Bow Initiate's Close Combat Shot or whatever it's called. Favored Enemy damage has been ruled as NOT precision based damage.
trollbill 07-09-07, 03:22 PM	It is as you have to be with in 30' of the target to use it. Same as Sneak Attack with a ranged weapon and the Order of the Bow Initiate's Close Combat Shot or whatever it's called. Favored Enemy damage has been ruled as NOT precision based damage. Point-blank Shot was listed as Precision damage in 3.0. No such reference is made regarding this in 3.5. In fact, 3.5 seems to have mostly abandoned the term 'precision damage.' Nor does it state anywhere in the 3.5 rules that Point-blank Shot has any restrictions other than a 30-ft. range, i.e. doesn't work against creatures immune to critical hits, etc.
DarkKnight 07-10-07, 03:09 AM	Point-blank Shot was listed as Precision damage in 3.0. No such reference is made regarding this in 3.5. In fact, 3.5 seems to have mostly abandoned the term 'precision damage.' Nor does it state anywhere in the 3.5 rules that Point-blank Shot has any restrictions other than a 30-ft. range, i.e. doesn't work against creatures immune to critical hits, etc. True that it doesn't specifically say that it's "precision damage" it is STRONGLY implied though. First, Point Blank Shot is part of the Precise Shot feat tree. Second, you have to be within 30' like with a rogue's Sneak Attack ability. The FAQ is somewhat unclear on this as well though, it lists three specific examples of "precision damage", Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and Sudden Strike. It then goes on to say that it's best to err on the conservative side when making a judgment call. So while it's not 100% clear one way or the other, I'd still play that it's precision damage and would rule that at any table I ran.
trollbill 07-10-07, 10:29 AM	True that it doesn't specifically say that it's "precision damage" it is STRONGLY implied though. First, Point Blank Shot is part of the Precise Shot feat tree. Second, you have to be within 30' like with a rogue's Sneak Attack ability. I agree there is an implication, but not that it is a strong one. First of all, Point-blank Shot is the prereq for ALL archery feats, not just the precision based ones, so that is an irrelavent arguement. The 30' range limit could be interpreted as an implication, but you could also interpret it to simply fit within the title of the feat. You can't exactly call it "Point-blank" Shot if it works at all ranges. The flavor text for the feat does also mention the attack is more precise, but the same could easily be said for a shot made by someone with a higher BAB. Considering the effort the designers have made to point out what types of damages are precision in all other cases, I feel the implication is more strongly towards it not being that way.
LachlarlanIII 07-10-07, 10:44 AM	I don't believe undead, constructs, plants, etc. are immune to the extra damage from Point Blank Shot. That right there gives strong evidence that Point Blank Shot is not precision based. It could be argued that the extra damage is because there is still sufficient velocity of a projectile fired/thrown at 30 ft. that it has a stronger punch.
Maesto 07-10-07, 10:57 AM	The argument about this being, of course, about the 1 extra point of damage you get from manyshot if PBS applies to all your arrows (or two extra points, if you've got a BAB of 11)? Come on guys, take the conservative route, then nobody can argue against you. At least, nobody can argue that you're getting more benefit than you should be. It's what I do.
bitznarf 07-10-07, 03:29 PM	But why limit yourself needlessly Maesto? Why aim for a lower target? Why accept less than you should get? Rather than assume that the DM will rule one way, find out which way the DM rules and use that. Shortchanging yourself because some other DM rules the more restricive way doesn't make sense to me.
DroidTrooper 07-10-07, 03:53 PM	The argument about this being, of course, about the 1 extra point of damage you get from manyshot if PBS applies to all your arrows (or two extra points, if you've got a BAB of 11)? Come on guys, take the conservative route, then nobody can argue against you. At least, nobody can argue that you're getting more benefit than you should be. It's what I do. Well in terms of multishot it might be only 1 point of damage that occurs rather infrequently as multishot is not that popular of a feat. The base issue of point blank shot takes effect on a high percentage all ranged attacks. Ruling that PBS is percision based, and thus has no damage against anything without a discernable anatomy (undead, elementals, constructs, etc.) represents about a 10% reduction in damage per arrow.
Maesto 07-11-07, 12:49 AM	Well in terms of multishot it might be only 1 point of damage that occurs rather infrequently as multishot is not that popular of a feat. The base issue of point blank shot takes effect on a high percentage all ranged attacks. Ruling that PBS is percision based, and thus has no damage against anything without a discernable anatomy (undead, elementals, constructs, etc.) represents about a 10% reduction in damage per arrow. Ah, now that I disagree with. Note that under constructs and undead and elementals, it just says "not subject to critical hits". Now, sneak attack (etc) says that it doesn't work against critters not subject to critical hits, but PBS just says "More damage for you". With regards to why I'm limiting myself? Well, the same applies to all aspects of the game, especially those involving money. Less arguments is a good thing; there's enough arguing that it doesn't really matter, and I'm happy to limit myself over 1 or 2 points of damage for a feat that I barely use anyway. Jolyon
boolean 07-11-07, 01:57 PM	FWIW, Complete Arcane says that the damage bonus from PBS only applies once to spells like Scorching Ray. This isn't conclusive proof that PBS damage is 'precision damage', but it does make the ruling of 'PBS once per Manyshot' more consistent overall.
DarkKnight 07-12-07, 02:01 PM	FWIW, Complete Arcane says that the damage bonus from PBS only applies once to spells like Scorching Ray. This isn't conclusive proof that PBS damage is 'precision damage', but it does make the ruling of 'PBS once per Manyshot' more consistent overall. Thanks, I knew I saw something like this somewhere but I could remember what it was in regards to.