Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Objulen 02-04-06, 07:28 PM	Now, I understand that, for some reason (probably to head off the multitudes begging for specific PrCs to be in the game), asking questions or debating the uses of a PrC are not brought up, but why the Master Transmogrifist is NPC only just boggles me. There's nothing about the PrC that doens't fit the setting, like Samuri or something similar. There's nothing about it that the average NPC kingdom would disapprove of (such as the True Necromancer or Pale Master back in 3.0, when it was in T&B). You get better at turning into things, and you lose 4 spell levels over time for doing so. Now, what I suspect is that this was done because of the belief that the PrC could come up with something broken, but I'm just not seeing how, when you compare it to a straight Transmuter or a Master of Many Forms. --First, and most importantly, you have the general restriction on Polymorph, which keeps things from getting cheesy -- no large magical beasts with Swallow Whole or Hydras with 12 natural attacks per round, and nothing outside of the Monster Manual. --Secondly, you have the 4 lost caster levels. You have to take Practiced Spellcaster, which eats a feat, since Polymorph lets you turn into something with HD equal to your caster level. This means that while you can cast spells in your Polymorphed form, if normally allowed, you aren't going to be able to do as much as the standard wizard/sorcerer. Just starting the PrC eats 1 caster level, and by level 4 (CL 11 min), you are back by two, so while base wizards have lvl 6 spells, you only have 5. --This also means that if you max out the PrC, you can only get Polymorph Any Object, which allows you to attain Construct, Outsider, Plant, and Undead forms at lvl 19 min., in high level play, it also means that the character will never have access to Shapechange. --The favored form machanic means that you can't just assume any form you want, like the Master of Many Forms. While you can gain and change forms as you level, there are limits to what forms you will be able to assume and use. --What does the PrC give that might break it? -You recieve the special sense of a favored form at CL 9 min -+2 attack bonus (CL 10) while in a favored form for 1 arcane caster level, two levels later (you get an extra +2 attack bonus for every 3 levels, max +6, coming 2 levels later than a lost arcane caster level). -At CL 8 min, you get a free extend spell on Polymorph, Alter Self, Polymorph Any Object, and Shapechange (when used to assume a favored form), but you won't get the last two until much later, if at all (i.e. Shapechange), and the durations of the first 2 are long as it is. -At CL 11 min, you can add Silent Spell and Still Spell to the aforementioned spells for free, which is nice, but you've lost a 2nd arcane caster level at this point. -CL 12 min gives you a permanent duration Alter Self, but given that it's standard duration would already be 120 minutes, or 2 hours, which is more than long enough for a level 2 spell at level 12 (with the MT at arcane caster level 10, mind you). -CL 14 min gives you free Silent and Still spells on the aforementioned 4 spells when assuming a favored form. You are also down 3 arcane caster levels. Nice, but given how dependant this PrC is on changing forms, nothing game-breaking. -CL 15 min gives you manifest qualities. You are a 12th level caster, and gain the Exceptional Special Qualities of an assumed form. This one might cause worry, but if you look at it, since the Huge creatures are all off the list, I haven't seen anything in particular to be worried about, given the loss of arcane caster levels. All the really cool special qualities are either on Huge+ creatures (hydra fast healing 22, Ramohraz fire aura, etc), or are on Constructs, Undead, or Outsiders, which requries Polymorph Any Object, which we don't have. We could go straight for it, but since we are 3 arcane caster levels down, that means we wait until CL 18, when standard casters have Shapechange. Also, compare this ability to the Master of Many Forms, who gets it at CL 12 min, and has access to Huge and larger forms. Spellcasting doesn't improve for MoMF (we have Tenser's Transformation), but considering that a MoMF has access to abilities like a Troll's regeneration much sooner, as well as being able to become a Delver at CL 15 and gain all of its abilities, I'm not seeing the issue. -CL 17 allows Infinite Variety, which allows the MT to use add a single ability to a favored form from any form we can assume with the spell cast to become that form (Natural Armor, a movement mode, a natural attack, an extraordinary special attack or quality, or swap an ability score, if the form is the same size). However, we still don't have Polymorph Any Object, and won't until CL 19, and since we can't become Huge+ creatures still, we still don't have their abilities. We are in high level play, and wizards have Shapechape. Am I missing something?
Bob_the_Theurge 02-05-06, 06:18 PM	No, I don't think you've missed anything. The class is definitely weaker, on the whole, than the Master of Many Forms class when it comes to transforming ability. However, I don't expect the Circle to do anything, because they already forbade us from asking to have things moved to less-restricted access. I think it's a mistake on their part, but that's their decision.
Mommy was an Orc 02-05-06, 07:02 PM	Master Transmogrofist is poorly written. You're not allowed to assume a form that is the same type as your own. However, Alter Self only allows one to assume a form that is of the same type. So half of the PrC is talking about things that can't happen. Also, Infinite Variety is the kind of open-ended ability that causes DM headaches. They are running a high level campaign and probably don't want to deal with it.
CSHunt68 02-05-06, 08:01 PM	Please do not debate moving a PrC to a less restricted status.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-05-06, 09:19 PM	Please do not debate moving a PrC to a less restricted status. I'm with those who think this sort of debate ought to be open, sorry. The Circle seems not to bother having any open debates except for when the LGCS is under review, and other good questions have been put forth in this regard. When questions are forbidden that the players want to ask, I for one feel shut out.
Objulen 02-05-06, 10:25 PM	Please do not debate moving a PrC to a less restricted status. Normally, I wouldn't even though I don't agree with several of the Council's decisions on the matter. For example, true necromancers and palemasters were banned back in 3.0 because most kingdoms don't appreciate that sort of necromancy...even though any single class cleric can become a lord of the undead with base class features and spells anyway. So why restrict them? In this case, however, I just can not see any reason why the PrC was restricted, even within the confines of the Council's general reasons, which boils down to 3: 1) The class/PrC does not fit thematically in Greyhawk. This mostly applies to classes derived from asian cultures and psionics. 2) The class/PrC is generally unappreciated or does something that is not socially acceptable in most or all of good/netural Greyhawk, such as true necromancers, palemasters, warlocks (due to their innate talents) etc. The main reason I find this falicious is because a player can either build a character that does this anyway (i.e. the single class cleric necromancer) or can build a character along the same theme. 3) The class/PrC can be exploited or otherwise is broken. This is the only reason I can see for the MT being restricted, except that, as I describe above, there's no reason I can see for how the MT can be exploited -- the loss of 4 caster levels in exchange for what the class gets is hardly overpowering with the extant restrictions to Polymorph. I'm guessing that the Council doesn't want the status of PrCs and classes discussed because they don't want a thread of people begging for their favorite PrCs and classes. That's why I haven't made a thread asking for warlocks, true necromancers, palemasters, psionics, or anything else that falls under the following reasons I've seen for restricting PrCs, even though I think that LG would improve if they were added. The only reason I bring up the MT PrC is because, by the apparent criteria of the Council, it should not be on the restricted list. Any clarification that anyone can provide regaurding this would be vastly appreciated.
Objulen 02-05-06, 10:37 PM	Master Transmogrofist is poorly written. You're not allowed to assume a form that is the same type as your own. However, Alter Self only allows one to assume a form that is of the same type. So half of the PrC is talking about things that can't happen. And your point? That hardly is a reason to restrict it. If people want to take a PrC that has an internal restriction that may limit its usefulness a little (since the power of the PrC comes from Polymorph) then why not let them? Also, Infinite Variety is the kind of open-ended ability that causes DM headaches. They are running a high level campaign and probably don't want to deal with it. Compared to a Master of Many Forms or Shapechange? Are you serious? A level 17 wizard of any variety and any PrC with full arcane caster progression can change into anything in the game with 17 HD or less as many times as they want for the duration of the spell, and you are saying that Infinite Variety is a problem? The MT needs this just to stack up with the base classes -- at level 17, the MT is going to have lvl 7 spells, not 9, for one, so even if the character gains troll regeneration or something along those lines, it's not going to make up the power difference of 2 spell levels. Even if the MT could gain Hyrda fasting healing 22 (which can't be done since you can't assume that form in LG), that still wouldn't make up for 2 spell levels at that point. A lvl 17 wizard can turn into a Beholder and spam eye rays, since Shapechange grants all supernatural abilities of the form, turn into a golem with magic immunity, and more. At level 18, the wizard can turn into a Pit Fiend with all extraordinary and supernatural abilities, and at 20, a Balor. The MT can't even use a form with more than 15 HD or creatures with the Outsider, Plant, Undead, or Construct type until 19 with Infinite Variety, when the PC finally gains Polymorph Any Object, and never gains Shapechange in LG. The MT is a magic/combat hybrid; it is a flavorfull PrC, not a powerful one.
Mommy was an Orc 02-06-06, 12:16 AM	And your point? That hardly is a reason to restrict it. If people want to take a PrC that has an internal restriction that may limit its usefulness a little (since the power of the PrC comes from Polymorph) then why not let them? The class doesn't work as written. That's a perfectly valid reason to restrict it.
Objulen 02-06-06, 09:08 AM	The class doesn't work as written. That's a perfectly valid reason to restrict it. It works fine as written. Alter Self allows for inherenlty weaker forms than Polymorph, and the duration becomes permanent at lvl 5 of the PrC. People who take the class aren't really going to miss the spell, especially if they are a Sorcerer or Transmuter.
Mommy was an Orc 02-06-06, 02:57 PM	Alter Self is limited to forms of your type only - essentially humanoid. Master Transmogrofist special forms are limited to forms not of your type - anything but humanoid. Master Transmogrofist in no way overcomes the limitation of Alter Self being for forms of your type only. i.e. you can't use Alter Self to adopt a special form. Also, Infinite Variety has bigger problems than Shapechange - first off, regardless of whether or not you yourself can cast the spell, you're perfectly capable of casting Shapechange by reading a scroll of it. It might be expensive, but it is easily done with Practiced Spellcaster. But it isn't necessarily that something is too powerful that gets it banned - the problem is that Infinite Variety is a pain in the neck for DMs, particularly when they shouldn't be making up house rules to deal with it. What does Black Pudding's Split Form do when you're not a Black Pudding as an example? If you're a Green Hag with Will o' Wisp's immunity to most magic, does your Belt of Strength still boost your Strength? It works fine as written. Alter Self allows for inherenlty weaker forms than Polymorph, and the duration becomes permanent at lvl 5 of the PrC.
Objulen 02-06-06, 08:37 PM	Alter Self is limited to forms of your type only - essentially humanoid. Master Transmogrofist special forms are limited to forms not of your type - anything but humanoid. Master Transmogrofist in no way overcomes the limitation of Alter Self being for forms of your type only. i.e. you can't use Alter Self to adopt a special form. Again, what's your point? Alter Self is not that important. You get a permanent duration casting at lvl 5, and since you are limited to 5 HD forms of your own type (and humanoids aren't the best choices by far) you are going to use Polymorph anyway. Who is going to pick a humanoid as a favored form anyway? Umberhulks, dragons, just about anything non-humanoid gives much better stat bonuses. The only characters that need to worry about this are races that you can't play. Also, Infinite Variety has bigger problems than Shapechange - first off, regardless of whether or not you yourself can cast the spell, you're perfectly capable of casting Shapechange by reading a scroll of it. It might be expensive, but it is easily done with Practiced Spellcaster. So what? A cleric can use Divine Spell Power to boost their caster level by +4, and cast a lvl 9 spell at level 13 without rolling. A Mystic Theurge can use Practiced Spellcaster to do the same. So can any class that has reduced spell levels to offset its power -- just take Practiced Spellcaster. The price of the scroll, and the fact that it can only be used once, is already accounted for in this situation. It would be really nice, but given that a Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight, Green Star Adept, Mindbender, Rainbow Servant, Sacred Fist, Shining Blade of Heironeous, Warpriest, etc. can use Practiced caster to gain access to spells above their normal ability, temporarily, via scrolls. Shapechange might be built into the MT, but honestly, when you have a Mystic Theurge Shapechanging into a Pit Fiend with lvl 8 cleric buffs and Harm, I'm not seeing the issue. Also, as long as you aren't too far from the caster level of the creator of the scrolls, it's not really an issue. A lvl 14 caster only needs to roll a 4 to cast a lvl 9 spell from a lvl 17 caster. That's an 85% chance of success to pull of a Wail of the Banshee, Meteor Storm, etc. And, in the end, if its an issue, then it can be simply ruled that MT abilities do not work with spells cast from scrolls. End of issue. But it isn't necessarily that something is too powerful that gets it banned - the problem is that Infinite Variety is a pain in the neck for DMs, particularly when they shouldn't be making up house rules to deal with it. What does Black Pudding's Split Form do when you're not a Black Pudding as an example? If you're a Green Hag with Will o' Wisp's immunity to most magic, does your Belt of Strength still boost your Strength? The Black Puddings are Huge creatures. Their form can not be assumed with Polymorph, so it can be used by a Master Transmogrifist with Infinite Variety in Living Greyhawk. As for the Will o' Wisp's immunity to magic, it has no effect on magic item bonuses. Demi-Liches have a similar ability, as do golems, but it doens't affect their ability to use items. It only applies to spells and harmful magical effects directed against them.