Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Stormhawk 05-06-07, 08:14 AM	On page 130 of the PHB, the description of the masterwork tool read the following: "This well made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumastance bonus on related skill checks (if any). Some examples of this of item are from table 7-8 include masterwork artisan tools, masterwork thieves tools, disguise kit, climber's kit, healer's kit and mastework musical linstrument. This entry covers just about anything else. Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used towards the same skill check do not stack, so masterwork pitons and masterwork climber's kit do not provide a +4 bonus if used together on a climb check." So my question is, does this entry cover all remaining skills. Are there masterwork tools for the following skills: swimming balance jumping bluff knowledge skills (all) tumble intimidate concentration spellcraft sense motive I understand the "spirit" of this rule here, but should there limits? I'll post this to the main D&D Rules page as well, but I was wondering if my LG comrades encountered this. Thx. Stormhawk
_metz_ 05-06-07, 10:04 AM	I have come across this in LG - the ruling I have seen most often is that unless its a named kit (e.g: thieves tools) and you have access (e.g: Thieves tools in the PHB) You cannot get it. IN theory you could get such things - but would need access to items not named in the PHB.
gomeztoo 05-06-07, 10:30 PM	DM's decision. Which means: don't count on it to work, but you can always try (it's only 50 gp). Edit: as an example: I, personall, as a DM, would allow a masterwork swim suit (masterwork tool - Swim). But only if that is the only thing you wear, and you are unencumbered. Circumstance counts.
Southernskies 05-07-07, 07:03 AM	Masterwork budgie smugglers! :D
amnuxoll 05-07-07, 12:21 PM	I've seen "masterwork tool" items on at least two ARs. So, access does happen. :AMN:
NeSoDak 05-07-07, 12:48 PM	I've seen "masterwork tool" items on at least two ARs. So, access does happen. :AMN: I too have seen masterwork tool access for several different skills on AR's, but they are usually at 150 gp instead of 50 gp as per the PHB. I agree that this will be a judge decision, but in our group we have determined that it is allowed, but the tool has to be something reasonable. i.e. - set of encyclopedia's for each specific Knowledge, maybe flippers and a wet suit for swimming, "How to tie a knot, a boy scouts guide to knot tying" for use rope :D ...
MatteBlack 05-07-07, 01:56 PM	I am of the opinion that the bonus is too minute to really enter into a discussion of how realistic the tools may or may not be. Historical documenteries constantly amaze me at how much better ancient technology was than I thought. Defining the rules based on the creativity or technical knowledge of the players at the table and their ability to debate the point seems inherantly flawed. I am fine with the mindset of "there is this thing that helps". If the player thought to buy that piece of equipment, let's just say his character was prepared for that roll and able to carry the necessary tool to where it was needed and leave it at that. A +2 bonus on a skill roll is not going to break the game and not worth the distraction to the game. I can see how an argument could be made that we don't have access to the skill kits because they aren't named specifically in the book but, to make case by case rulings on each tool is pretty pointless in the end. There is a clearly written rule in the book that we may or may not have access to. Probably the best answer would be for LG to make a list of skills that masterworked tools are available for. That way needless discussions/debates at the table can be avoided. Lee
NeSoDak 05-07-07, 05:17 PM	I am of the opinion that the bonus is too minute to really enter into a discussion of how realistic the tools may or may not be. Historical documenteries constantly amaze me at how much better ancient technology was than I thought. Defining the rules based on the creativity or technical knowledge of the players at the table and their ability to debate the point seems inherantly flawed. I am fine with the mindset of "there is this thing that helps". If the player thought to buy that piece of equipment, let's just say his character was prepared for that roll and able to carry the necessary tool to where it was needed and leave it at that. A +2 bonus on a skill roll is not going to break the game and not worth the distraction to the game. I can see how an argument could be made that we don't have access to the skill kits because they aren't named specifically in the book but, to make case by case rulings on each tool is pretty pointless in the end. There is a clearly written rule in the book that we may or may not have access to. Probably the best answer would be for LG to make a list of skills that masterworked tools are available for. That way needless discussions/debates at the table can be avoided. Lee I would have to say that it is going to make or break the game. A +2 bonus on a skill roll may seem insignificant, until your character has to make that all important swim check or drown. Add to the fact that if you had a +2 from masterwork items say for Diplomacy and Sense Motive at 100 gp, you basically got a feat for free, Negotiator. (What's a hundred gold pieces in the life of an adventurer?) Not to mention all the other feats that boost skills, usually at a +2. As far as wether or not we have access to the rule, we have access. The LGCS states: "LG uses the D&D core rules. If this document does not discuss a rule or does not provide the details for a rule, consult the core rulebooks (PH, DMG, and MM) for more information. LG does not use variant rules unless specifically stated otherwise; sidebars are considered variant rules. If a rule in this document and the core rulebooks conflict, the rule in this document takes precedence. See Chapter Four for more details on the rulebooks used in LG." By that admission, masterwork skill items are a core rule, not a variant, and are therefore usuable. Am I putting to much restriction on the PC by requiring them to have a reasonable item? Perhaps, but D&D is, in its own nature, a game of creativity. And I believe that that creativity should be rewarded. Now, most of the time a judge doesn't even check to see if you have masterwork items, they usually accept what you have for a bonus to a skill, unless it appears to be extraordinarily high. For example, I currently have a Marshall build with a +36 diplomacy (in the Shield Lands) at level 6. I usually get asked where I'm getting all the bonuses, and I can easily show where they come from. But some masterwork items don't allow you to use them all the time. For instance, I have played a scenario where you gain access to a foldup podium that is essentially a Masterwork Tool Kit for Diplomacy. I wouldn't give you a +2 for having that masterwork tool kit for a rushed Diplomacy at the begining of a fight. This is the main reason I ask for a description of the item. I don't think that it is unreasonable to ask for a description.
MeepoTheMighty 05-07-07, 05:49 PM	There's a core mod floating around out there where some of the bad guys have Masterwork Boot Soles to give them a +2 on tumble, and others have Masterwork Fine Toothed Combs to give a +2 to search. Seems really cheesy to me.
KarmaInferno 05-07-07, 05:56 PM	I can see any of the "physical" skills having tools that can help in their execution, but on purely mental skills it seems cheesy and wrong. Although, a masterwork mallet that adds a bonus to memory skills when applied to the forehead is just an amusing concept. -karma
MatteBlack 05-07-07, 08:31 PM	But some masterwork items don't allow you to use them all the time. For instance, I have played a scenario where you gain access to a foldup podium that is essentially a Masterwork Tool Kit for Diplomacy. I wouldn't give you a +2 for having that masterwork tool kit for a rushed Diplomacy at the begining of a fight. This is the main reason I ask for a description of the item. I don't think that it is unreasonable to ask for a description. "This well made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumastance bonus on related skill checks (if any). Some examples of this of item are from table 7-8 include masterwork artisan tools, masterwork thieves tools, disguise kit, climber's kit, healer's kit and mastework musical linstrument. This entry covers just about anything else. Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used towards the same skill check do not stack, so masterwork pitons and masterwork climber's kit do not provide a +4 bonus if used together on a climb check." The official rule doesn't say that it only works in some situations, only that two by different description wouldn't stack. While you may give it a special description that might have logical reasons that would limit it, the description of the tools don't have such limitations. I might describe my Diplomacy tool as some sort of garment or accessory that makes me look more believable or credible and it would be usable in far more situations without set-up. Do I really deserve more frequent bonuses because I found a better way to describe it or fewer people at my table decided to debunk every nut and bolt of how it would function for real. I feel the answer is "NO". Admittedly, sense motive and spellcraft seem like hard tools to describe and referring to some sort of knowledge library seems like it should take additional time but, I don't think we should be trying to create a grey area when the rules are fairly clear on it. If LG wants to restrict some of the skills from masterworked tool use, I'd be fine with many of the skills being on it or have the situations surrounding their use limited but, lets wait for those rule to be made as these ones work fine with in the game system. Lee
gomeztoo 05-07-07, 09:43 PM	This is a game of creativity. Is it reasonable that that is rewarded? I feel the answer is 'yes'. Especially with ambiguous or generic rules (masterwork tools, diplomacy skill, prestidigitation), the player's creativity is a not insignificant contributor to the result. At least in my games. YMMV.
KarmaInferno 05-07-07, 10:12 PM	I've seen one guy claim his Diplomacy "kit" contained, among other things, herbal breath mints, a flask of good whiskey, fake fangs (for diplomasizing with orcs and the like), and roses for the ladies. :D -karma
MatteBlack 05-07-07, 10:28 PM	This is a game of creativity. Is it reasonable that that is rewarded? I feel the answer is 'yes'. Especially with ambiguous or generic rules (masterwork tools, diplomacy skill, prestidigitation), the player's creativity is a not insignificant contributor to the result. At least in my games. YMMV. I have no problem with creativity being rewarded but, many of the LG rules are in place to create an even plane for us all to play on. What might be accepted as a valid creative answer at one table may be visciously debunked at another. Maybe that table discussion could find a very well balanced and logical way to handle such a kit that would be a good answer for a home campaign but, most players would rather add their bonuses from black and white rules in a matter of seconds than have a 10 minute discussion on how a masterworked diplomacy tool should work. There are plenty of ways to exercise your creativity in D&D that don't need to make grey areas out of functional rules. If audited on your skill bonus merely declare that used your masterworked ______ tool and avoid opening the can of worms all together. Save your creativity for the words you use in your diplomacy check and enhance believability in a way that matters. Lee
Mattastrophic 05-08-07, 01:02 AM	There are plenty of ways to exercise your creativity in D&D that don't need to make grey areas out of functional rules. If audited on your skill bonus merely declare that used your masterworked ______ tool and avoid opening the can of worms all together. Save your creativity for the words you use in your diplomacy check and enhance believability in a way that matters. After thinking about it... you're right. Exactly what the tool actually is isn't important; what is important is that you have one. *makes a note to buy Masterwork Dancing Soles and Tumbling Heels to add onto his Boots of Speed, Masterwork Compositions (for Perform(sing)), a Masterwork Suit of Clothes (for Diplomacy and Gather Information)... but what for Bluff?* -Matt
_metz_ 05-08-07, 01:27 AM	Bluff - Masterwork law Certificate? or if Chaotic - Masterwork stolen Legal Certificate? "As my certification from Harvard demonstrates" Its masterwork cos its harvard not Yale... (lol) Honestly I find the idea a little irritating, and wouldn't allow non named kits or AR kits at tables I am DMing. I mean whats a masterwork concentration kit? does it take up a headband spot? where does it go? etc... I am more than happy to see Authors get access for masterwork swimming suits or something, but as long as its named and has rules then its ok. If its not a home campaign its otherwise too hard to administrate all of this. Especially if people argue stuff like its active all the time "masterwork spot" kits... (Are these a headband slot?)
MatteBlack 05-08-07, 01:34 AM	After thinking about it... you're right. Exactly what the tool actually is isn't important; what is important is that you have one. *makes a note to buy Masterwork Dancing Soles and Tumbling Heels to add onto his Boots of Speed, Masterwork Compositions (for Perform(sing)), a Masterwork Suit of Clothes (for Diplomacy and Gather Information)... but what for Bluff?* -Matt My suggestion is a Masterwork Bluff Tool. Further description is at your own peril. Lee
MatteBlack 05-08-07, 01:49 AM	Honestly I find the idea a little irritating, and wouldn't allow non named kits or AR kits at tables I am DMing. I mean whats a masterwork concentration kit? does it take up a headband spot? where does it go? etc... I am more than happy to see Authors get access for masterwork swimming suits or something, but as long as its named and has rules then its ok. If its not a home campaign its otherwise too hard to administrate all of this. Especially if people argue stuff like its active all the time "masterwork spot" kits... (Are these a headband slot?) If you are DMing, why not follow the applicable LG rules? "LG uses the D&D core rules. If this document does not discuss a rule or does not provide the details for a rule, consult the core rulebooks (PH, DMG, and MM) for more information. LG does not use variant rules unless specifically stated otherwise; sidebars are considered variant rules. If a rule in this document and the core rulebooks conflict, the rule in this document takes precedence. See Chapter Four for more details on the rulebooks used in LG." and "This well made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumastance bonus on related skill checks (if any). Some examples of this of item are from table 7-8 include masterwork artisan tools, masterwork thieves tools, disguise kit, climber's kit, healer's kit and mastework musical linstrument. This entry covers just about anything else. Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used towards the same skill check do not stack, so masterwork pitons and masterwork climber's kit do not provide a +4 bonus if used together on a climb check." I am not saying that LG or Wizards shouldn't consider further defining how these tools work and some skills they should not apply to and amend the rules but, there seems to be no grey area on how the rule works, only player dissatisfaction with where the game rule splits from "reality".
King Kashue 05-08-07, 02:37 AM	Bluff - Masterwork law Certificate? or if Chaotic - Masterwork stolen Legal Certificate? "As my certification from Harvard demonstrates" Its masterwork cos its harvard not Yale... (lol) Indeed...If it was Yale, it'd be a +1 item :D #1 > #2 ;)
gomeztoo 05-08-07, 03:25 AM	If you are DMing, why not follow the applicable LG rules? Actually, I recall that the Circle once posted that whether a 'generic' masterwork tool works is up to the DM to decide.
_metz_ 05-08-07, 03:41 AM	Thanks gomeztwo, that saved me having to say it. (Its come up when I have been DMing/playing before) I would consider it on a case by case basis.And more importantly, a skill by skill basis, as well as whether or not said items would be applicable at the time. (Arguing wearing a swimsuit won't get you plus two if you are wearing brestplate on top of that)
kjenks 05-08-07, 08:33 AM	swimming - goggles and webbed gloves balance - pole, soft shoes jumping - pole, firm shoes bluff - visor, sun glasses knowledge skills (all) - cheat sheats, primer books tumble - shoes with a good grip intimidate - the right hat, cool shades concentration - prayer beads spellcraft - cheat sheats, primer books sense motive - cheat sheats, primer books on facial expressions
Mattastrophic 05-08-07, 08:57 AM	intimidate - cool shades Heck yeah. Gomez, metz: Could you show me where the Circle posted that? -Matt
MatteBlack 05-08-07, 10:51 AM	Actually, I recall that the Circle once posted that whether a 'generic' masterwork tool works is up to the DM to decide. I'd love to see it. My point of view is more about following the rules (and official rulings) that exist than whether the rules portray tools realistically and taking DM discretion where it isn't warranted. Lee
MatteBlack 05-08-07, 11:05 AM	swimming - goggles and webbed gloves balance - pole, soft shoes jumping - pole, firm shoes bluff - visor, sun glasses knowledge skills (all) - cheat sheats, primer books tumble - shoes with a good grip intimidate - the right hat, cool shades concentration - prayer beads spellcraft - cheat sheats, primer books sense motive - cheat sheats, primer books on facial expressions For knowlege and some other similar skills, I think the cheat sheets wood be good for a quick glance (1rd to draw use and replace) to gain the bonus where as a tome could give the bonus all day if you spent 1/2hr studying it the night before. Special armor mods could also be a good option for many of the physical skills along with various boots and such. Make-up and clothing could be the answer for many of the social skills. Spellcraft and the knowlege skills are the only ones I find difficult imagining to work as the rules suggest they would. With no additional actions or equipping.
kjenks 05-08-07, 11:35 AM	Spellcraft and the knowlege skills are the only ones I find difficult imagining to work as the rules suggest they would. With no additional actions or equipping. Inside my visor (also used for Bluff checks), I keep some little glyphs indicating... ...the color of a Fireball -- slightly different from the colors Flame Strike or Blast of Flame. ...the distinctive swirling shape of a Cone of Cold. ...the purple, smoky blackness of an Inflict Critical Wounds. ...the mnemonic device for the schools of magic, "A Caster Does Exercise Everytime I Need Tan Underwear." These things don't help much, but they do give me some little assistance in recalling my schooling in Spellcraft.
_metz_ 05-08-07, 11:51 AM	Inside my visor (also used for Bluff checks), I keep some little glyphs indicating... ...the color of a Fireball -- slightly different from the colors Flame Strike or Blast of Flame. ...the distinctive swirling shape of a Cone of Cold. ...the purple, smoky blackness of an Inflict Critical Wounds. ...the mnemonic device for the schools of magic, "A Caster Does Exercise Everytime I Need Tan Underwear." These things don't help much, but they do give me some little assistance in recalling my schooling in Spellcraft. And how is that a masterwork tool? That is role play justification for a circumstance bonus.
MatteBlack 05-08-07, 11:51 AM	Inside my visor (also used for Bluff checks), I keep some little glyphs indicating... ...the color of a Fireball -- slightly different from the colors Flame Strike or Blast of Flame. ...the distinctive swirling shape of a Cone of Cold. ...the purple, smoky blackness of an Inflict Critical Wounds. ...the mnemonic device for the schools of magic, "A Caster Does Exercise Everytime I Need Tan Underwear." These things don't help much, but they do give me some little assistance in recalling my schooling in Spellcraft. I'd imagine that a character would require a cheat sheet that basically included all the spells he can spellcraft logically grouped with the basic details of their casting listed. I surmise that I could construct such a list/cheat sheet as some sort of laminate with today's technology. I suppose an engraved metal plate could be hung somewhere for quick access but, I'd imagine some sort of action would be required which spellcraft sometimes does not allow. A similar item could serve as a mnemonic enhancer for many knowledge skills effectively assisting the character to better access his own knowlege. I just think a visor couldn't fit enough to help with all the possible spells though. A visor and some lamp black could be a good way to assist your spot checks by reducing glare though.
ThaiGQ 05-08-07, 12:03 PM	"Spellcraft/Knowledge (specified) for Medieval Fantasy Dummies" with quick reference index on sale for only 50 gp! :P
chesspiece 05-08-07, 12:13 PM	Bluff - Masterwork law Certificate? or if Chaotic - Masterwork stolen Legal Certificate? "As my certification from Harvard demonstrates" bluff - visor, sun glasses Masterwork Wooden Nickels ;) Masterwork Snake-oil :cool: Masterwork Wool Hats (to pull over their eyes) :mrt: Masterwork Playing Cards :P Gomez, metz: Could you show me where the Circle posted that? http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html#tools The ruling is ~2 years old and was never added into the LGCS. AFAIK, it's never been over-ruled by other Circle members so it should be valid. To stifle this thread, the DM has ultimate say in what constitutes as "the perfect tool for the job" with regards to masterwork tool sets. If the DM says it's OK, you get the bonus. If not, you don't. Personally, I think it's just easier to err on the side of caution, and only purchase those tools sets that are listed in the PHB or other approved sources. -- Chris Tulach LIVING GREYHAWK Circle Iuz's Border States
kjenks 05-08-07, 01:59 PM	And how is that a masterwork tool? That is role play justification for a circumstance bonus. Exactly. In my opinion, that's all a masterwork tool is -- a justification for a circumstance bonus. If you have a plausible justification, the DM may grant you the bonus.
MatteBlack 05-08-07, 02:11 PM	Good find. I guess it is DM's discretion on whether they are allowed. I am new to LG so, I assume Circle Memeber posts qualify as official rulings? My suggestion would be to declare when you go to use it as a player and as a DM, ask if players have them at the beginning of a mod to avoid the messiness of adjudicating the tool's existence after the die has been cast. Lee
Mattastrophic 05-08-07, 03:46 PM	The ruling is ~2 years old and was never added into the LGCS. AFAIK, it's never been over-ruled by other Circle members so it should be valid. I remember those; Britt effectively annulled them in one of the LG Questions/Answers posts. Exactly which one... gahh, that's a long thread to dig through. -Matt
Mattastrophic 05-08-07, 03:47 PM	...
bitznarf 05-08-07, 03:58 PM	There is a keel in Stormwrack that can be installed on armor. Oddly enough it costs 50gp and gives a +2 circumstance bonus to swim checks.
_metz_ 05-08-07, 11:53 PM	Exactly. In my opinion, that's all a masterwork tool is -- a justification for a circumstance bonus. If you have a plausible justification, the DM may grant you the bonus. If characters role play and earn themselves a circumstance bonus with their tools - I'll give it to them. What I won't give is an angry player who insists he has it on his sheet he spent 150gp on a "masterwork concentration kit" without any source explanation or whatever. Forgive me if I view items as more than contributers to stat blocks... one actually has to use them and explain this process, at least once, to me. Thats the point I was going at with named kits, and stating things like "I take off my armour and put my swimsuit on" I am ok with this. Wearing full plate and pointing to your equipment list and arguing you passed your jump check cos of the kit will frustrate me with no explanation.
kjenks 05-09-07, 08:10 AM	That's just fine if you're playing with these characters all the time, but if you're a judge at a convention, you don't want to slow down the table to a crawl every time someone uses a skill with a masterwork kit so he can role-play out how that kit will be a benefit in the current situation. It's only a +2, it's in the rules and it's only a skill check (which is rarely the difference between life and death). Let the characters use their toys. -- Ken Jenks
_metz_ 05-09-07, 08:18 AM	That's just fine if you're playing with these characters all the time, but if you're a judge at a convention, you don't want to slow down the table to a crawl every time someone uses a skill with a masterwork kit so he can role-play out how that kit will be a benefit in the current situation. It's only a +2, it's in the rules and it's only a skill check (which is rarely the difference between life and death). Let the characters use their toys. -- Ken Jenks Which is why If its not a named kit or from an AR I don't allow it when I don't have time. As mentioned earlier in the thread.
MatteBlack 05-09-07, 08:26 AM	Which is why If its not a named kit or from an AR I don't allow it when I don't have time. As mentioned earlier in the thread. What's your process of checking for them? Do you ask at the beginning of the mod? Ask what bonuses go into each skill roll? Audit close roles? Tell players they need to declare anytime they add a bonus? Lee
_metz_ 05-09-07, 09:46 AM	I ask if people have any unusual skill bonuses or anything with rules contentions etc/stuff I should know about to inform me at the beginning of the game. At a table with people I do not know, I ask if they use such kits, whilst everyone is getting sorted out, takes only a couple of minutes. I usually am fine with rolls, and don't watch them too carefully unless a character is consistently performing abnormally. Fortunately most DMs that I know don't allow non named kits so PCs don't use them at my tables. Most characters use said kits at the time - as in they say - I whip out my notepad, or my swimsuit, etc, and when they do that, I give them the bonus, or the discretionary +2 circumstance bonus. There would be massive table variation on this. Massive. As a new player to LG, use them if you will, but ask the DM at the beginning of the game if they allow them, and inform them of your kits and what they do. Simple really. Its nice to help the DM out sometime, they are often going out of their way to DM ;)
chesspiece 05-09-07, 10:04 AM	I remember those; Britt effectively annulled them in one of the LG Questions/Answers posts. Exactly which one... gahh, that's a long thread to dig through. -Matt Going by my memory... (I don't have time to find Britt's posts ATM) It was a discussion on the "1 spell per scroll" MIC rule that was dropped from the LGCS596->597 revision. I dredged up a 4-5 year old Circle post from the L_G Y! board. Britt stated that the scroll rule was no longer applicable, but that some other old Circle postings & Dispel Confusion still were valid. The scroll rule was against statements in the DMG (so non-Core) and the new LGCS is deliberately 'more Core than ever before'. It is noteworthy that the scroll rule was deliberately removed from the LGCS prior to being officially overturned. In this case, the rule: - was posted more recently (~2 years) - was never removed from the LGCS (it was never added in the first place) so we can't presume the Circle's disposition - it empowers GMs to make rules calls at their tables (something that the Circle has been promoting for a number of years) - is further complicated by MW tools from splat books (i.e. MW Saddle in CV - only gives +1 on Ride, IIRC) that don't follow PHB guidelines or pricing I suspect the current Circle will uphold the MW Tool rule. If you want the rule overturned (put those haughty GMs in their place), then directly asking the Circle is the way to go. ;) P.S. Cheers to David Baker who maintains the very helpful Circle Rulings compilation webpage that I linked to previously. Important Circle rules posts end up here and this site has been drawn on heavily during LGCS review periods. www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html
MatteBlack 05-09-07, 10:59 AM	I posted this topic to the Q and A thread last night. Let's see what Britt or the circle comes down with. Lee
Mattastrophic 05-09-07, 11:08 AM	Going by my memory... I gotcha now. I figure I'll just buy the kits and subject myself to variation. If I lose out, oh well. -Matt
Timlagor 05-12-07, 09:39 PM	If a (non WotC) ruling isn't in the LGCS or a Dispel Confusion then it is not binding on a GM in LG whoever said it ...unless it was made by the Appeals GM. Everything else (including the Q/A thread) is just useful guidance. In this case the response indicates that the Circle is happy to leave it in the hands of the table GMs.
just_be_glad_now 05-12-07, 10:52 PM	Taking a break from all things productive, I present the following exhaustive (at least the skill list is exhaustive) list. Use at your own risk :) ... Appraise: Magnifying Glass (PHB), Scale (PHB) Balance: Tightrope balancing pole (CV) Bluff: Greg Raymer's obnoxious glasses Climb: Climber's Kit (PHB) Concentration: Magic Mouth with Elan singing "Concentrate" 25 times. (5 uses) Craft: Artisan's Tools (PHB) Decipher Script: Common-Infernal translator dictionary or whatever. Diplomacy: Clothes etc, What everyone else has said Disable Device: Thieve's Tools (PHB) Disguise: Disguise Kit (PHB) Escape Artist: Big bag of grease Forgery: Box of pictures of insignias of different governments etc. (CV) Gather Info: Megaphone Handle Animal: Animal Training Kit (CV), Bullwhip Heal: Healer's Kit (PHB) Hide: Camoflage Kit (CV) Intimidate: Extra Holly and Mistletoe Jump: Springs Knowledge: Parrot that sits on a shoulder and constantly speaks facts you've taught it, whether anyone wants to hear it or not. Listen: Listening Cone (CV) Move Silently: Oil and sponge for footsoles Open Lock: Thieve's Tools (PHB) Perform: Instrument (PHB) Profession: tools of the trade Ride: Saddle (CV, +1 for game balance?) A MW bit and such could give the other one Search: Fine toothed comb Sense Motive: Stethoscope for measuring bluffer's breathing Slight of Hand: I saw purse-cutting knives once on an AR. I suppose a set of things that comes in a child's magic kit could qualify. Spot: Lenses (stacking w/ EotE seems a mite cheesy tho...) Survival: Astronomical calendar for weather forecasting and not getting lost, magnifying glass for tracking. Seems like lots of the adventuring gear could provide a bonus for various living in the wild checks. Survival's a very flexible skill. Swim: The keel thing (SW), otherwise fins Tumble: The chalk that gymnasts use Use Magic Device: Rabbit's foot Use Rope: Book of knots, splicing equipment Obviously, these have varying degrees of silliness. This list is also put together by someone who hasn't used any generic MW tools btw. Brayden Glad
chesspiece 05-13-07, 02:41 AM	If a (non WotC) ruling isn't in the LGCS or a Dispel Confusion then it is not binding on a GM in LG whoever said it ...unless it was made by the Appeals GM. Everything else (including the Q/A thread) is just useful guidance. In this case the response indicates that the Circle is happy to leave it in the hands of the table GMs. While I'm pleased that the Circle leaves this particular ruling to the GMs' discretion... Other than the post on UMD and crafting, all the answers in here are safe to use as official answers. I believe the current intent is that when the Circle (campaign administrators) tells you something regarding LG, you are obligated to comply with it. Whether this is a game ruling or a PC / module / Player administration issue. But not if they're merely stating their "opinion". In LG however, ignorance is an excuse for not following rules if they're distributed through the "unofficial" chanels. If something isn't in the official documents (LGCS, DC), we aren't obligated to be aware of it - so we can play legally without it and change things at a later date. But if we are aware, we're expected to comply with the Circle's instructions. The LGCS doesn't state the Circle has the power to modify rules outside the LGCS & DC, but their position allows them to make campaign rulings & changes as required. Effectively, they're the bosses. If they didn't have this power, they couldn't have made the first LGCS official... ;)
Timlagor 05-13-07, 10:49 PM	My post got crashed :( 1) The LGCS (not very clearly) gives the Circle and Triads certain powers which don't include the ability to make Campaign Rulings directly... though there is some ambiguous language that could be read that way. 2) I believe the LGCS and DCs are made official by the RPGA (and the DCs by the LGCS) "Safe to use" means that you won't have someone point out the rule that says you're wrong. Many such comments from Circle members go into the next DC. If you scour the Q&A thread you will even find my question as to whether the answers therein are official and binding and Britt's reply that they are not (you might even be quoting it there). You cannot take that thread to a table and demand that the GM heed the post there. They are however a useful source of guidance for GMs to use at their discretion.
Timlagor 05-13-07, 10:50 PM	In many of your examples above you should have an MW in front of the entry (MW Thieves Tools etc)
MatteBlack 05-30-07, 02:57 PM	This should clear up most of the issues brought up in this thread. Thank you for the responses, Britt. My questions to the Q&A thread: 1. Do the old Circle Member thread responses survive the new LGCS and remain valid? 2. Are all skill's tools available and usable in all situations? 3. Is it the DMs discretion which skill''s tools and situations should apply? 4. Are the only kits available the ones listed in the books and new ones made available through AR access? Britt's response from the Q&A thread: 1. As long as they have not been superseded, yes. The post in question is still very much applicable. 2. No. 3. Yes. 4. No.