Post/Author/DateTime	Post
seraphimpunk 06-29-07, 04:50 PM	Does anyone know if the bonuses listed for masterwork instruments in the Complete Adventurer are allowed in Living Greyhawk?
Fakegoatee 06-29-07, 04:56 PM	Q: How do the rules from CAd for bardic music with masterwork instruments work in LG? A: You must obtain access to these special uses for certain instruments from campaign documentation. That should be your answer.
LGMoses 06-29-07, 11:49 PM	Don't feel bad, I asked the same thing.. :)
MatteBlack 06-30-07, 01:47 PM	Masterwork tools are available for most skills and are right in the PHB. You'd be unlikely to be denied your +2 bonus for perform with a masterworked perform tool described as a particular instrument.
CdrcJsn 06-30-07, 03:19 PM	He's talking about the specialized Bardic music effects available from MW instruments. Like MW drums changing Inspire Courage from +1 hit/dmg/save vs fear to +1/+2/+0. But you're right, MW instruments can be bought from the PHB. The special way of using them described in CA can only be done with special training available via campaign documentation.
The_Jester 06-30-07, 05:38 PM	Campaign documentation being ARs or a metaorg, like the bardic college from the Pale that doesn't require you to be from the metaregion to join the organization.
CdrcJsn 06-30-07, 09:47 PM	Campaign documentation being ARs or a metaorg, like the bardic college from the Pale that doesn't require you to be from the metaregion to join the organization. Hmm. Never noticed that before. Pale metaorgs are currently under review. This might change. At the very least it should probably require Pale residency. I thought that was stated in the metaorg FAQ, but after reviewing the FAQ, apparently not. Cedric Atizado
bitznarf 07-01-07, 03:30 AM	I really get annoyed with metaorgs that require residency for no apparent in-game reason. I understand the metagame reason of not wanting cherry picking, but if there is no in-game reason, then there should be no residency requirement, in my opinion.
_metz_ 07-01-07, 06:54 AM	I really get annoyed with metaorgs that require residency for no apparent in-game reason. I understand the metagame reason of not wanting cherry picking, but if there is no in-game reason, then there should be no residency requirement, in my opinion. Yes and no, most metaorgs require regional residency for pretty obvious reasons, such as the Perrenland Military (with the exclusion of the Pax, or foreign legion) and others don't necessarily, (I would think a bardic college would fall into this category, bards wandering around and all that). I have yet to see a metaorg that didn't justify its residency requirement in SOME way. But I don't know all metaorgs, of course :) Frankly, I feel the metagame reason is pretty good imho e.g: no joining random metaorgs or moving to regions JUST for stuff like natural Bond...
The_Jester 07-01-07, 12:45 PM	Hmm. Never noticed that before. Pale metaorgs are currently under review. This might change. At the very least it should probably require Pale residency. I thought that was stated in the metaorg FAQ, but after reviewing the FAQ, apparently not. Cedric Atizado Crap. I knew I shouldn't have opened my mouth. My bard loves her masterwork horn and it's fun having her support the Pale from an RP perspective, but there's no way I can move her down there...
CdrcJsn 07-01-07, 08:08 PM	Most pale metaorgs require pale residency or joining after playing a regional mod. It's just weird that someone from 1000 miles away to have the benefit of a metaorg without having fulfilled either of those two requirements. How did the PC ever get any training? A correspondence course? Hmm...the Pale University of the Flanaess, now teaching students via mail!
CdrcJsn 07-01-07, 08:10 PM	I really get annoyed with metaorgs that require residency for no apparent in-game reason. I understand the metagame reason of not wanting cherry picking, but if there is no in-game reason, then there should be no residency requirement, in my opinion. Well...if your character isn't from the region and haven't ever visited (i.e. played a regional mod), then how exactly did he manage to get into the organization and get their specialized training?
bitznarf 07-02-07, 04:00 AM	How did the PC ever get any training? A correspondence course? Hmm...the Pale University of the Flanaess, now teaching students via mail!Well...if your character isn't from the region and haven't ever visited (i.e. played a regional mod), then how exactly did he manage to get into the organization and get their specialized training? That would be what we call the TU cost of the metaorg. You know, time spent working on that sort of thing. Just living in the same area (most of the time) as the university doesn't mean that you have spent any more time there than the guy who spends X amount of time there every year learning and/or fulfilling obligations.
CdrcJsn 07-02-07, 07:13 PM	That would be what we call the TU cost of the metaorg. You know, time spent working on that sort of thing. Just living in the same area (most of the time) as the university doesn't mean that you have spent any more time there than the guy who spends X amount of time there every year learning and/or fulfilling obligations. But someone in the area is also paying the same TU costs as the person from 2 months travel away? Doesn't make sense.
solbergb 07-02-07, 07:51 PM	Most pale metaorgs require pale residency or joining after playing a regional mod. It's just weird that someone from 1000 miles away to have the benefit of a metaorg without having fulfilled either of those two requirements. How did the PC ever get any training? A correspondence course? Hmm...the Pale University of the Flanaess, now teaching students via mail! In the past, certain Pale organizations actively recruited foreigners. Those had either no residencey or NMR residency requirements. As for when...they all have TU requirements. Presumably you are in the Pale during those times. The Disciples of Discipline believe that if you follow their martial arts style, it will lead you to Pholtus. They're an evangelical order that sneaks in the religion with the acrobatic training. They are a rare Pholtan order that trains half-orcs, nonhumans, even a troll once. Foreigners - sure if you can pass the trials. The bardic college likewise would be the kind of organization that would want outsiders. Everyone has to take (Pholtan) religious courses whether they want to or not, and it's a great opportunity to show why the Pale and the One True Path are better than all those other heretical Pholtans while teaching something else the foreigners are there to learn. This is especially true of the instructors, who aren't really paid with anything but respect and ale. I think you'd have to recruit outside of the Pale for some subjects. The Church and Military and Land/Business office have residency requirements, as they should. I can't remember if Arcanist guild does - it should, as should the nonexistant Thieves guild and other resistance orgs for heathen casters and arcanists - although the Natural Order properly should allow other NMR to join since most of its leadership are in exile. I think Brotherhood of Arms requires defending the Pale but recruits from the NMR. All that said, the current Pale leadership may have decided that the openness of some orgs introduced chaotic elements to the Pale and they might crack down, as they did a year or two ago cutting adventurers out of the chain of command. The openness of the Disciples and the College may be a relic of more progressive experiments. The balance between evangalizing the One True Path and risking chaos is a fine one.
solbergb 07-02-07, 07:58 PM	But someone in the area is also paying the same TU costs as the person from 2 months travel away? Doesn't make sense. It occurs to me that in real life I traveled thousands of miles to get my higher education. It took me more time to travel there than it would take a mid-level adventurer to hitch a teleport ride. I went there because of the reputation of the college, and because I was talented enough to get some of my education subsidized. To me, a college is the LEAST likely type of metaorg to restrict foreigners. As for lower level adventurers...I've had a NMR adventure that involved opening a pass across the Rakers in year 3, probably 6 weeks of incharacter negotiation and stuff take one TU, while a few days in Tenh took 2 TU. TU's are flexible. Presumably they spend their yearly TU's before or after a module set in Tenh or the Great Kingdom, both of which are reasonably close.
CdrcJsn 07-03-07, 07:50 PM	It occurs to me that in real life I traveled thousands of miles to get my higher education. It took me more time to travel there than it would take a mid-level adventurer to hitch a teleport ride. I went there because of the reputation of the college, and because I was talented enough to get some of my education subsidized. To me, a college is the LEAST likely type of metaorg to restrict foreigners. As for lower level adventurers...I've had a NMR adventure that involved opening a pass across the Rakers in year 3, probably 6 weeks of incharacter negotiation and stuff take one TU, while a few days in Tenh took 2 TU. TU's are flexible. Presumably they spend their yearly TU's before or after a module set in Tenh or the Great Kingdom, both of which are reasonably close. TU's are indeed flexible. But you still haven't given an adequate argument as to why out of region characters don't pay more than in-region characters for receiving training. You paid extra costs for your college education via plane tickets. Your hypothetical adventurers would pay more by paying for a teleport spell. TUs aren't the only way of measuring added cost for outsiders. The fact that TUs are flexible don't really figure into this.
CdrcJsn 07-03-07, 07:52 PM	In the past, certain Pale organizations actively recruited foreigners. The fact that outsiders are welcomed in certain metaorgs isn't really the issue. It's the fact that those from 1000 miles away don't incur any extra costs for training than someone living in the same area of the metaorg.
bitznarf 07-03-07, 07:57 PM	Once again, when you have mods that take 2 TUs but you spends months in travel, then you have mods that take 4 TUs but it is all said and done in a few days you realize that TUs are subjective. That being said, I wouldn't really complain too loudly if out of region metaorgs cost more TUs to attend. Or if it cost more gold due to *in game* politics. It is the metagame influence on these that annoy me.
copper_wyrmling 07-04-07, 07:01 AM	TU's are indeed flexible. But you still haven't given an adequate argument as to why out of region characters don't pay more than in-region characters for receiving training. You paid extra costs for your college education via plane tickets. Your hypothetical adventurers would pay more by paying for a teleport spell. TUs aren't the only way of measuring added cost for outsiders. The fact that TUs are flexible don't really figure into this. How does it work for PCs who can cast teleport themselves? Not everyone needs to pay extra costs - in time or money - to travel across the Flanaess. My sorcerer is still slightly annoyed that her Guild requires her to live in Perrenland, even though she could teleport back home on a moment's notice and she spends the vast majority of her time adventuring in other parts of the Flanaess anyway (as of late last year, I can no longer easily travel to Perrenland or Iuz's Border States). But yeah, I'd much rather have an extra gold/TU cost for out-of-region people than a blanket ban. I can accept it as a metagame penalty even if it makes no sense in-game.
The_Jester 07-04-07, 02:59 PM	TU's are indeed flexible. But you still haven't given an adequate argument as to why out of region characters don't pay more than in-region characters for receiving training. You paid extra costs for your college education via plane tickets. Your hypothetical adventurers would pay more by paying for a teleport spell. TUs aren't the only way of measuring added cost for outsiders. The fact that TUs are flexible don't really figure into this. So increase the TU costs. Add an extra TU (or two or three) for people not of the region. That makes sense and is perfectly balanced. It's an excellent incentive to join local meta-orgs and be involved in local flavour while still allowing people from outside to make the (lengthier) trek to be involved if the metaorg gives them something they can't get elsewhere no matter how hard they've looked...
The_Jester 07-04-07, 03:07 PM	Most pale metaorgs require pale residency or joining after playing a regional mod. It's just weird that someone from 1000 miles away to have the benefit of a metaorg without having fulfilled either of those two requirements. How did the PC ever get any training? A correspondence course? Hmm...the Pale University of the Flanaess, now teaching students via mail! Well, it is odd as I'm from Zief so that really is an entire continent away. But I did spend the number of TUs and gold needed to attend and receive a number of other benefits that only apply when I'm in the Pale (skill bonuses). 3 TUs is a tad light and I would happily have paid 4 or even 5. A hefty price for my main character who's rapidly coming up on 20 TUs for the rest of the year. But, on the other hand, how many folk in Zief happily talk about how cool Pholtus is?
solbergb 07-05-07, 12:39 PM	But yeah, I'd much rather have an extra gold/TU cost for out-of-region people than a blanket ban. I can accept it as a metagame penalty even if it makes no sense in-game. In California it costs more for out of state people to attend the University of California family of universities. Something like that could be a justification. Folks who travel quickly pay in good works, or extra fees because they aren't paying the normal Theocrat's fifth for their ordinary income which subsidizes the school....