Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrystalBlue 08-03-07, 08:11 AM	This is in my character build thread for my Two Weapon Fighter, so let's see if I can get lucky. I won't...but I'm feeling gutsy today. To get into Pious Templar, I need Weapon Focus with my dieties weapon. Correlon Larethean. That means a longsword. I'm a duel wielding light blade fighter and I have weapon familiarity. Lightblades, by the book, function as longswords for all feats associated with longswords that I have, such as Weapon Focus. Level 4 Pious Templar will give me Weapon Specialization. Theoretically, I have weapon focus with both a longsword and a lightblade, because the feat is interchangable with them both. So...I would then have Weapon Specilization of a lightblade as well. The books reference this as being true. Here's where it gets tricky... I'm trying to get Melee Weapon Mastery with my lightbade. Now, the problem here is that a lightblade is a piercing weapon and a longsword is a slashing weapon. And MWM says I have to take it of a weapon I have specilization with. My theroy is that because I have specilization through longsword for my lightblade, that works, because it's effectively the same weapon. I know all of you are going to say no, but it make sense to me. So...yeah, I'm just looking for validation here. It should, by the wording and the feel of the feats, work.
Mommy was an Orc 08-03-07, 08:57 AM	Actually, and you're not going to like this... Races of the Wild specifically states that Lightblade is treated as a shortsword or rapier, not as a longsword...
Zanzibax 08-03-07, 10:07 AM	He's talking about an elven thinblade. I understood him. Proceed.
bitznarf 08-03-07, 10:29 AM	But...the way the feats are worded, Lightblade can be counted as having all the feats associated to Longsword .... as I'm considered to have Weapon Specilization with lightbalde. No you've got the wording slightly backwards, you don't consider yourself to have WS in the lightblade, you can consider a Lightblade to be a shortsword/rapier for the purpose of some feats. And you can consider the Thinblade to be a longsword for the purpose of some feats. In no case do you actually have WS(Lightblade) or WS(Thinblade). What you will have is WS is a slashing weapon, and thus can take MWM(slashing).
Mommy was an Orc 08-03-07, 10:32 AM	He's talking about an elven thinblade. I understood him. Proceed. If you read the other thread that he referred to, he was eventually planning to dual-wield elven lightblades, not elven thinblades. In any case, even if they were elven thinblades, he's getting Weapon Specialization in Longsword. Even if when wielding his elven thinblade, that counts as Weapon Specialization in an elven thinblade, it doesn't count for Melee Weapon Mastery. He's got specialization in a slashing weapon, he's allowed to take MWM in a slashing weapon.
Zanzibax 08-03-07, 10:32 AM	No you've got the wording slightly backwards, you don't consider yourself to have WS in the lightblade, you can consider a Lightblade to be a shortsword/rapier for the purpose of some feats. And you can consider the Thinblade to be a longsword for the purpose of some feats. In no case do you actually have WS(Lightblade) or WS(Thinblade). What you will have is WS is a slashing weapon, and thus can take MWM(slashing). Now I'm going to take the leap and consider that he may have *meant* to say thinblade instead of lightblade. What he has is weapon specialization: Longsword...which will also act as weapon specialization: Thinblade. So can he instead take Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing)?
Zanzibax 08-03-07, 10:40 AM	If you read the other thread that he referred to, he was eventually planning to dual-wield elven lightblades, not elven thinblades. In any case, even if they were elven thinblades, he's getting Weapon Specialization in Longsword. Even if when wielding his elven thinblade, that counts as Weapon Specialization in an elven thinblade, it doesn't count for Melee Weapon Mastery. He's got specialization in a slashing weapon, he's allowed to take MWM in a slashing weapon. Let's see: Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, base attack bonus +8. Benefit: When you select this feat, choose bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. You must have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with a melee weapon that deals this type of damage. Sword, Elven Thinblade: This rapierlike exotic weapon is the size of a longsword but much lighter. Like the lightblade, it is favored by dexterous elf fighters and rogues. A character can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply his Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifi er to attack rolls with an elven thinblade. Characters proficient with the elven thinblade may treat it as a rapier or a longsword for the purpose of any of the following feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization. I think he *can* use Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing) by virtue of these two synergies. Proficiency with selected weapon: Yes Weapon Focus with selected weapon: Weapon focus longsword is also weapon focus thinblade, Yes. Weapon Specialization: Weapon Specialization longsword is also weapon specialization thinglbade, Yes base attack bonus +8: Presumably. Benefit: When you select this feat, choose bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. You must have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with a melee weapon that deals this type of damage... In this case...it is an elven thinblade.
Zanzibax 08-03-07, 11:01 AM	I think we need PHBII errata to disbar this, as it would eliminate the strictures on Melee Weapon Mastery to allow both slashing and piercing by virtue of the synergy between the longsword and the elven thinblade.
bitznarf 08-03-07, 11:17 AM	What he has is weapon specialization: Longsword...which will also act as weapon specialization: Thinblade. Weapon Spec(Longsword) does not act as Weapon Spec(Thinblade). The thinblade acts as a longsword. Proficiency with selected weapon: Yes Weapon Focus with selected weapon: Weapon focus longsword is also weapon focus thinblade, Yes. Weapon Specialization: Weapon Specialization longsword is also weapon specialization thinglbade, Yes And there is where you're understanding falls apart. He *does not* have Weapon Focus(thinblade) or Weapon Specialization(thinblade). He can simply count the thinblade *as a longsword* for the purposes of *those feats*. So for the purposes of those feats he has a longsword in his hand. And a longsword does slashing damage. Thus he can take MWM(slashing).
TWG_Prometheus 08-03-07, 11:18 AM	Let's see: I think he *can* use Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing) by virtue of these two synergies. Proficiency with selected weapon: Yes Weapon Focus with selected weapon: Weapon focus longsword is also weapon focus thinblade, Yes. Weapon Specialization: Weapon Specialization longsword is also weapon specialization thinglbade, Yes base attack bonus +8: Presumably. Benefit: When you select this feat, choose bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing. You must have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with a melee weapon that deals this type of damage... In this case...it is an elven thinblade. But at no point does the character actually HAVE the Weapon Focus(Thinblade) feat. They're just able to use Weapon Focus(Longsword) to boost their attack rolls with their Thinblade. That's all the Thinblade rules do. Ditto with Weapon Specialization.
CrystalBlue 08-06-07, 08:28 AM	Yes, I was talking about thinblade, not lightblade. I can never tell the two apart. In theory, the two weapons are identical with weapon focus and weapon specilization. I just want to point out that, given this information, I'd rule it and say that MWM works for piercing. No, it's not because it's what I'm going for. It's because it sounds correct. It feels correct. Otherwise, the rule that weapon focus longsword works for a thinblade would make no sence at all. Look at the two weapons. One is piercing, the other slashing. One has a crit range of 19-20, the other has an 18-20. And one of them can be weapon finessed. That's enough differences to make them two seperate weapons. So if we're going that far, there should be an errata that bars the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specilization synergies. But because the book and campaign make them feel like two weapons that are identical for the purposes of how you weild them, then there's no reason I shouldn't be able to take MWM for piercing. It just makes sense. Obviously, it doesn't make sense to anyone else, and I won't be able to use it, so the character concept it scrapped. I don't know what to do with the character anymore if I can't specialize in a weapon that feels more like the diety weapon of Correllon Larethian then a longsword is. The longsword is a large, clunky tool of humans. The thinblade is an elegant and deadly weapon of the elves. Again...it makes sense.
Mommy was an Orc 08-06-07, 09:40 AM	Yes, I was talking about thinblade, not lightblade. I can never tell the two apart. You can't wield two thinblades without OTWF or massive penalties. And you don't have OTWF in your build. The longsword is a large, clunky tool of humans. The thinblade is an elegant and deadly weapon of the elves. Which is why every single elf in the world knows how to wield a longsword and only martially trained humans know how to use it. And why CoC gives the bonus to longswords. And losing Weapon Familiarity gives you the feat slot for OTWF. You're not an 10 Str Elf who this will break. You're just getting a penalty of 1 to hit.
TWG_Prometheus 08-06-07, 10:17 AM	Yes, I was talking about thinblade, not lightblade. I can never tell the two apart. In theory, the two weapons are identical with weapon focus and weapon specilization. I just want to point out that, given this information, I'd rule it and say that MWM works for piercing. No, it's not because it's what I'm going for. It's because it sounds correct. It feels correct. Otherwise, the rule that weapon focus longsword works for a thinblade would make no sence at all. Look at the two weapons. One is piercing, the other slashing. One has a crit range of 19-20, the other has an 18-20. And one of them can be weapon finessed. That's enough differences to make them two seperate weapons. So if we're going that far, there should be an errata that bars the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specilization synergies. But because the book and campaign make them feel like two weapons that are identical for the purposes of how you weild them, then there's no reason I shouldn't be able to take MWM for piercing. It just makes sense. Obviously, it doesn't make sense to anyone else, and I won't be able to use it, so the character concept it scrapped. I don't know what to do with the character anymore if I can't specialize in a weapon that feels more like the diety weapon of Correllon Larethian then a longsword is. The longsword is a large, clunky tool of humans. The thinblade is an elegant and deadly weapon of the elves. Again...it makes sense. Perhaps it makes sense, but it isn't the way the rules work. We're not even pulling strange corner-rules from back pages of the DMG. This all comes directly from the feat descriptions themselves. Read them one right after the other and you'll get the same ruling. You ran full-force into a weird aspect of the exotic weapons you were using, but you can't pretend that it works just because you want it to. Pretending that the lack of a valid path to Melee Weapon Mastery breaks your build completely is also a little off. The worst case scenario this character can run into at this point is that you won't get MWM. It's OK. You seem to have been enjoying the build up to this point, so this shouldn't be a deal-breaker for you. There are a number of valid options for getting the character back on track, and few of them even require much in the way of retraining. MwaO's suggestion of going Longswords is probably the best you're going to get because it's a legit path to MWM in your current level build, and as he points out, Longswords are technically the most elven-themed melee weapon in the game. It'd take a whole edition update to change that.
CrystalBlue 08-06-07, 01:18 PM	Then I hope 4th gets here soon so I can sabatoge ever book in existance. I guess there's just no way to do this build correctly, so you can all forget about this topic now. Moving this discussion back to the character thread...