Metamagic and Circlet of Mages [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamagic and Circlet of Mages [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ferol, Debtor of Torm
02-05-08, 01:14 AM Circlet of Mages from MIC states, "...when you cast a spell allows you avoid losing that prepared spell or spell slot (as if you hadn't cast it). If you use all 3 charges for one spell it allows you to, "Retain a spell of up to 3rd level".

My question involves this item's use in conjunction with metamagic.

Could you use the circlet to keep a maximized fireball or a quickened lightning bolt?
_metz_
02-05-08, 01:40 AM Circlet of Mages from MIC states, "...when you cast a spell allows you avoid losing that prepared spell or spell slot (as if you hadn't cast it). If you use all 3 charges for one spell it allows you to, "Retain a spell of up to 3rd level".

My question involves this item's use in conjunction with metamagic.

Could you use the circlet to keep a maximized fireball or a quickened lightning bolt?

Metamagic uses up a higher spell slot level.

it could work if you were metamagicking it with a rod, but if you did it yourself its not a 3rd level spell if its quickened, etc.
Timlagor
02-05-08, 08:47 AM Actually it is still a 3rd level spell but I don't know of anyone who'd let you do that.
The metamagic rules are badly written but the intent is clear.
Mr.Black
02-05-08, 10:11 AM From the description of metamagic feats in the PHB.

"Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up."

"Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell."

Take it as you will. Expect table variation.
RanielK
02-05-08, 11:22 AM Circlet of Mages from MIC states, "...when you cast a spell allows you avoid losing that prepared spell or spell slot (as if you hadn't cast it). If you use all 3 charges for one spell it allows you to, "Retain a spell of up to 3rd level".

My question involves this item's use in conjunction with metamagic.

Could you use the circlet to keep a maximized fireball or a quickened lightning bolt?

This is a lot like the pearl of power and metamagicked threads of yore. Basically there was a groups of folks who felt you could cast a 5th level slot filled with a metamagicked 3rd level spell and recover it (metamagic and all) with a 3rd level PoP. They were logically argued down to feeling they could recover just the 3rd level portion of the spell and not the metamagic. Here we find many stubborn holdouts.

Though it is logically (and fairly) the spell slot used to cast the spell and not the spell and/or its metamagicked status that maters when selecting the appropriate PoP or in this case Circlet charge to recover the spell. So "no recovering maximized fireballs with 3rd level PoPs (or 3 charges of a circlet) for you!" (he said in his best Soup Nazi impersonation).
solbergb
02-05-08, 12:55 PM Just keep separate two concepts and your ruling will match that of the Circle on this topic. The quoted rules text above is actually pretty clear, but people usually only read half of it.

Metamagicked spells are PREPARED AND CAST as if they were the higher level spell

the EFFECT of a metamagicked spell once cast is in all ways as if it was a lower level spell.

If you think of it this way, you will understand why the circle ruled that metamagic rods, pearls of power, scrolls, wands and by extension the Circlet of Mages always use the spell SLOT at casting time to determine which item works or whether a spell fits in the item or how much the item costs, not the spell EFFECT.

The people who think you can pull a quickened magic missile back with a pearl 1, or use a lesser rod of maximize on an empowered fireball choose to ignore the PREPARED AND CAST part. But it's a religious dispute, fortunately settled by the Circle for LG after much bandwith was wasted on forums like these. I've pretty much never seen anybody change their mind on this topic. My opinion should be obvious from this post.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm
02-05-08, 02:21 PM I didn't mean to rekindle old arguments. Thanks for the info everyone.
RanielK
02-06-08, 10:31 AM I didn't mean to rekindle old arguments. Thanks for the info everyone.

Hey, no worries. It couldn't be helped. You had a legitimate question. But it's like Soleberg said. This thing has taken on nigh religious proportions. Those on each side are so entrenched, they will never see the logic in the other side's arguement.

Fortunately, we're right!* :P

*This variable of right is not to be confused with other shadings of right. This statement of right is drawn solely on LG rulings and is LG specific. This variable of right is only valid in AL, AR, CO, CT, DE, FL, GA, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MD, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NM, NY, NC, ND, OH, OR, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, and WY. It may be subject to being overturned. Check with legal counsel before applying this rightness outside of the Contenintal US.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 02-05-08, 01:14 AM	Circlet of Mages from MIC states, "...when you cast a spell allows you avoid losing that prepared spell or spell slot (as if you hadn't cast it). If you use all 3 charges for one spell it allows you to, "Retain a spell of up to 3rd level". My question involves this item's use in conjunction with metamagic. Could you use the circlet to keep a maximized fireball or a quickened lightning bolt?
_metz_ 02-05-08, 01:40 AM	Circlet of Mages from MIC states, "...when you cast a spell allows you avoid losing that prepared spell or spell slot (as if you hadn't cast it). If you use all 3 charges for one spell it allows you to, "Retain a spell of up to 3rd level". My question involves this item's use in conjunction with metamagic. Could you use the circlet to keep a maximized fireball or a quickened lightning bolt? Metamagic uses up a higher spell slot level. it could work if you were metamagicking it with a rod, but if you did it yourself its not a 3rd level spell if its quickened, etc.
Timlagor 02-05-08, 08:47 AM	Actually it is still a 3rd level spell but I don't know of anyone who'd let you do that. The metamagic rules are badly written but the intent is clear.
Mr.Black 02-05-08, 10:11 AM	From the description of metamagic feats in the PHB. "Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up." "Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell." Take it as you will. Expect table variation.
RanielK 02-05-08, 11:22 AM	Circlet of Mages from MIC states, "...when you cast a spell allows you avoid losing that prepared spell or spell slot (as if you hadn't cast it). If you use all 3 charges for one spell it allows you to, "Retain a spell of up to 3rd level". My question involves this item's use in conjunction with metamagic. Could you use the circlet to keep a maximized fireball or a quickened lightning bolt? This is a lot like the pearl of power and metamagicked threads of yore. Basically there was a groups of folks who felt you could cast a 5th level slot filled with a metamagicked 3rd level spell and recover it (metamagic and all) with a 3rd level PoP. They were logically argued down to feeling they could recover just the 3rd level portion of the spell and not the metamagic. Here we find many stubborn holdouts. Though it is logically (and fairly) the spell slot used to cast the spell and not the spell and/or its metamagicked status that maters when selecting the appropriate PoP or in this case Circlet charge to recover the spell. So "no recovering maximized fireballs with 3rd level PoPs (or 3 charges of a circlet) for you!" (he said in his best Soup Nazi impersonation).
solbergb 02-05-08, 12:55 PM	Just keep separate two concepts and your ruling will match that of the Circle on this topic. The quoted rules text above is actually pretty clear, but people usually only read half of it. Metamagicked spells are PREPARED AND CAST as if they were the higher level spell the EFFECT of a metamagicked spell once cast is in all ways as if it was a lower level spell. If you think of it this way, you will understand why the circle ruled that metamagic rods, pearls of power, scrolls, wands and by extension the Circlet of Mages always use the spell SLOT at casting time to determine which item works or whether a spell fits in the item or how much the item costs, not the spell EFFECT. The people who think you can pull a quickened magic missile back with a pearl 1, or use a lesser rod of maximize on an empowered fireball choose to ignore the PREPARED AND CAST part. But it's a religious dispute, fortunately settled by the Circle for LG after much bandwith was wasted on forums like these. I've pretty much never seen anybody change their mind on this topic. My opinion should be obvious from this post.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 02-05-08, 02:21 PM	I didn't mean to rekindle old arguments. Thanks for the info everyone.
RanielK 02-06-08, 10:31 AM	I didn't mean to rekindle old arguments. Thanks for the info everyone. Hey, no worries. It couldn't be helped. You had a legitimate question. But it's like Soleberg said. This thing has taken on nigh religious proportions. Those on each side are so entrenched, they will never see the logic in the other side's arguement. Fortunately, we're right!* :P *This variable of right is not to be confused with other shadings of right. This statement of right is drawn solely on LG rulings and is LG specific. This variable of right is only valid in AL, AR, CO, CT, DE, FL, GA, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MD, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NJ, NM, NY, NC, ND, OH, OR, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, VT, VA, WA, WV, WI, and WY. It may be subject to being overturned. Check with legal counsel before applying this rightness outside of the Contenintal US.