Metamagic Rod + Metamagic Feat: Which first for spontaneous casters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamagic Rod + Metamagic Feat: Which first for spontaneous casters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kjenks
02-07-06, 06:46 PM The Circle made this ruling. We should consider adding it to the LGCS 5, but I’m not sure how or if this rule (as written) applies to spontaneous casters:

===
If you apply a meta-magic feat to a spell and the increase in level of
that spell takes it above what you can use a metamgic rod on then you
cannot use it.

Pretty simple there.

If you used empower spell on a fireball it would bump it up so that it
would require a 5th level spell slot to cast it. Thus you could not
use a Metamagic, Silent, lesser Rod on the spell as it only works on
spells of 3rd level or less.

You could use empower spell on a magic missile as it would only raise
it to require a 3rd level spell slot to cast and thus would fall in
the range of the lesser Rod of Silence.

Thus it is stated and thus it is done. Unless a D&D Errata comes out
stating otherwise (or the feats or rods are updated in a future source)

Dave C
The Circle
===
http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html

I've got a sorc 13 with the Empower Spell feat and a Rod of Extend (Lesser). Can she use the rod to Extend a False Life then apply Empower Spell to it for 12x2=24 hours of Empowered False Life?

Extend Spell is normally +1 slot, but it's +0 with the Rod.

Empower Spell is +2 slots.

It looks like it depends on the order in which I apply the metamagic, and this case isn't covered by the Circle's rule quoted above. The Circle's rule covers the cases of a 1st level spell and a 3rd level spell in this kind of situation, but it says nothing about a 2nd level spell.

If I apply the Rod of Extend (Lesser) first then the Empower Spell feat, the combo works according to the Circle's rule.

But if I apply the Empower Spell feat first, it would bump the False Life spell from a level 2 to a level 4 spell so it would not be eligible for the Rod of Extend (Lesser) since a Lesser rod is up to level 3 spells.

On the other hand, my sorceress with also has a Metamagic Rod of Cold Substitution and the Draconic Power feat (Brass dragon, increases DC and caster level for [Fire] spells). If she casts an Orb of Fire and applies the Rod first then the feat, the spell no longer has the [Fire] so it does not get the increase in DC or caster level. If she casts an Orb of Fire and applies the feat first and then the Rod, the [Fire] spell does get the increase in DC or caster level and then it's converted to [Cold].

In summary, the Circle's rule seems to assume that you prepare a spell ahead of time with a metamagic feat, like a wizard or cleric, and there's no mention spontaneous casters, who apply metamagic feats at casting time. Would a spontaneous caster apply the rod first or the feat first or could the caster choose which to apply first at casting time?

Just for reference, this is from the description of Metamagic Rods:

SRD
===
Metamagic Rods: Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
===
Timlagor
02-07-06, 07:09 PM You would have to apply the Feat first.

Otherwise which slot would you expend to cast the spell?
Clearly you have to determine which slot you are spending before you get anywhere near the Rod.
blood_kite
02-07-06, 07:14 PM The ruling you have posted seems pretty self evident, but on rereading I see how it could be confusing for spontaneous casters.

I think you should apply your metamagic feats first, if the spell is then still a low enough level for the rod to work on then you can use the rod on it as well.

In the first example the spellcaster has the empower spell feat and a rod of silence, lesser. Normally a rod of silence, lesser can be applied to a fireball. But if the spellcaster empowered the fireball it becomes a 5th level spell and the rod of silence, lesser cannot be used.

In the second example the same spellcaster empowers a magic missile. Since empower a magic missile makes it a 3rd level spell the rod of silence, lesser can still be used.

If you apply your personal metamagic feats first then both examples will work with either a wizard or a sorcerer.
solbergb
02-07-06, 09:26 PM The circle has posted several times that you use the slot, period, to determine whether or not a metamagic rod can be used.

Ie, look at what slot is being expended. If 1-3, lesser rod. If 4-6 you need the normal rod. if 7-9 you need the greater rod.

Any other interpretation leads to stupidly broken cheese.

This interpretation also follows the metamagic description, saying it is prepared and CAST as the higher level (PHB) and the rods all talk about CASTING spells. The EFFECT is as the lower level spell, mutated by magic.

There isn't any difference between prep and spont casters...they both CAST out of the same slot when metamagic is involved.
Arvagor
02-07-06, 09:31 PM I would interpret it along these lines... A rod is a use-activated item. In the case of the metamagic rods, it makes sense that the act of casting a spell is what activates the rod. For a spontaneous caster, when you cast a spell is when you decide to apply your own metamagic feats (if you have any). So it would seem to follow that the rod "intercepts" the magic, so to speak, applies the rod's metamagic, then releases the spell.

If that were the case, then your own metamagic feat(s) would be applied, then the rod's...
kjenks
02-07-06, 11:01 PM Guys, I appreciate your help, I guess, but we just need to let the Circle decide this thing. It's their ruling, and they should include it (or not) in the LGCS in a way that's clear for all spellcasters.

The fact that different people can read the same text and see different interpretations says to me that the text isn't clear enough.

It seems comes down to three choices for a spontaneous spellcaster: feat first then rod, rod first then feat, or the spellcaster chooses at casting time. The Circle ruling I quoted seems to say feat first then rod -- for prepared spellcasters.
solbergb
02-08-06, 01:56 AM I don't get it Ken. Where are you getting that a spont caster behaves any differently from a prepared one? The circle entry was 100% clear, and just used wizard as an example. Reading it as only meaning wizards would also include every other spellcaster as "ambiguous" not just spont casters. I don't see it. Dave C didn't say "Prepare" anywhere. Sorcerer spells are also bumped up to higher level slots when metamagic is applied. This is not a difference between prep and spont casters.

In your "ambiguous" example...empower is +2. The rod is +0. Empower bumps the slot by 2. The rod will only work if the empowered spell slot used fits the rod. I do not see any possible confusion for a level 2 spell with empower applied...he gave a level 1 and 3 example, to show when a lesser rod could and could not work. Level 2...would fail with a +2 bump like empower. Succed with a +1 bump like extend.

Ken...seriously, I know you are a smart guy and I know you think about the rules and normally I really like to read what you write, even if I don't agree.

But this is just...I don't get it. Where is the ambiguity?

I'm with Dave C. "Pretty simple there." Just do it the same way for spont casters as you would do it for wizards, since you clearly do understand the example Dave C gave.

edit: I read your entry about 6 more times trying to figure out what you're driving at and I think I finally found it. You seem to think you can apply a metamagic feat to a spell already mutated by a metamagic rod.

I found this hard to understand because to me it is obvious that the rod does something to the spell after the spell has already begun casting (ie, slot is set, whether by prep or by spont application of metamagic feat).

To anyone who thinks this way, your argument and concern are incomprensible.

Here is the reasoning and rules support.

Metamagic rods are use activated magic items.
"All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). "

Feats by the weilder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

"A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast."

Metamagic rods are used at spell casting time (wording identical on all, emphasis mine)

" The wielder can CAST up to three spells per day that are <metamagicked> as though using the <metamagic> feat"

also from the PHB metamagic description:

"it is prepared and CAST as a higher-level spell. " (sorcerers obviously don't prepare, but everybody casts...and the slot gets bumped) "As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot."

Finally, you must choose which spell to cast, before you can cast it (PHB magic overview)

"First you must choose which spell to cast...If you're a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher....If you're a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven't reached your limit."

Ie...part of casting the spell is choosing the spell level, or you can't count it against your daily limit.

Therefore...you must bump the spell slot by your own feat, just as the metamagic rod general description says, then attempt to apply the rod. There is no way to cast aspell before it has had the metamagic feat applied, use the rod, then apply a metamagic later. In D&D, the spell cast is already adjusted for metamagic before it is cast...otherwise you can't choose the slot to burn, and you haven't done all the steps needed to cast a spell.

There is nothing in the rules to support the idea that you can apply metamagic to a spell after the rod has mutated it - unless you take the following text in the Rods section to mean before the spell of "XX" level or lower only considers the spell unadjusted for metamagic (ie, the limit is unadjusted spell level, not the cating slot level)

"Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower.
"

Dave C though has ruled against that interpretation, and didn't make a special exemption for spont casters.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kjenks 02-07-06, 06:46 PM	The Circle made this ruling. We should consider adding it to the LGCS 5, but I’m not sure how or if this rule (as written) applies to spontaneous casters: === If you apply a meta-magic feat to a spell and the increase in level of that spell takes it above what you can use a metamgic rod on then you cannot use it. Pretty simple there. If you used empower spell on a fireball it would bump it up so that it would require a 5th level spell slot to cast it. Thus you could not use a Metamagic, Silent, lesser Rod on the spell as it only works on spells of 3rd level or less. You could use empower spell on a magic missile as it would only raise it to require a 3rd level spell slot to cast and thus would fall in the range of the lesser Rod of Silence. Thus it is stated and thus it is done. Unless a D&D Errata comes out stating otherwise (or the feats or rods are updated in a future source) Dave C The Circle === http://www.theocracyofthepale.com/gamerules/circle_rulings.html I've got a sorc 13 with the Empower Spell feat and a Rod of Extend (Lesser). Can she use the rod to Extend a False Life then apply Empower Spell to it for 12x2=24 hours of Empowered False Life? Extend Spell is normally +1 slot, but it's +0 with the Rod. Empower Spell is +2 slots. It looks like it depends on the order in which I apply the metamagic, and this case isn't covered by the Circle's rule quoted above. The Circle's rule covers the cases of a 1st level spell and a 3rd level spell in this kind of situation, but it says nothing about a 2nd level spell. If I apply the Rod of Extend (Lesser) first then the Empower Spell feat, the combo works according to the Circle's rule. But if I apply the Empower Spell feat first, it would bump the False Life spell from a level 2 to a level 4 spell so it would not be eligible for the Rod of Extend (Lesser) since a Lesser rod is up to level 3 spells. On the other hand, my sorceress with also has a Metamagic Rod of Cold Substitution and the Draconic Power feat (Brass dragon, increases DC and caster level for [Fire] spells). If she casts an Orb of Fire and applies the Rod first then the feat, the spell no longer has the [Fire] so it does not get the increase in DC or caster level. If she casts an Orb of Fire and applies the feat first and then the Rod, the [Fire] spell does get the increase in DC or caster level and then it's converted to [Cold]. In summary, the Circle's rule seems to assume that you prepare a spell ahead of time with a metamagic feat, like a wizard or cleric, and there's no mention spontaneous casters, who apply metamagic feats at casting time. Would a spontaneous caster apply the rod first or the feat first or could the caster choose which to apply first at casting time? Just for reference, this is from the description of Metamagic Rods: SRD === Metamagic Rods: Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat but do not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast. ===
Timlagor 02-07-06, 07:09 PM	You would have to apply the Feat first. Otherwise which slot would you expend to cast the spell? Clearly you have to determine which slot you are spending before you get anywhere near the Rod.
blood_kite 02-07-06, 07:14 PM	The ruling you have posted seems pretty self evident, but on rereading I see how it could be confusing for spontaneous casters. I think you should apply your metamagic feats first, if the spell is then still a low enough level for the rod to work on then you can use the rod on it as well. In the first example the spellcaster has the empower spell feat and a rod of silence, lesser. Normally a rod of silence, lesser can be applied to a fireball. But if the spellcaster empowered the fireball it becomes a 5th level spell and the rod of silence, lesser cannot be used. In the second example the same spellcaster empowers a magic missile. Since empower a magic missile makes it a 3rd level spell the rod of silence, lesser can still be used. If you apply your personal metamagic feats first then both examples will work with either a wizard or a sorcerer.
solbergb 02-07-06, 09:26 PM	The circle has posted several times that you use the slot, period, to determine whether or not a metamagic rod can be used. Ie, look at what slot is being expended. If 1-3, lesser rod. If 4-6 you need the normal rod. if 7-9 you need the greater rod. Any other interpretation leads to stupidly broken cheese. This interpretation also follows the metamagic description, saying it is prepared and CAST as the higher level (PHB) and the rods all talk about CASTING spells. The EFFECT is as the lower level spell, mutated by magic. There isn't any difference between prep and spont casters...they both CAST out of the same slot when metamagic is involved.
Arvagor 02-07-06, 09:31 PM	I would interpret it along these lines... A rod is a use-activated item. In the case of the metamagic rods, it makes sense that the act of casting a spell is what activates the rod. For a spontaneous caster, when you cast a spell is when you decide to apply your own metamagic feats (if you have any). So it would seem to follow that the rod "intercepts" the magic, so to speak, applies the rod's metamagic, then releases the spell. If that were the case, then your own metamagic feat(s) would be applied, then the rod's...
kjenks 02-07-06, 11:01 PM	Guys, I appreciate your help, I guess, but we just need to let the Circle decide this thing. It's their ruling, and they should include it (or not) in the LGCS in a way that's clear for all spellcasters. The fact that different people can read the same text and see different interpretations says to me that the text isn't clear enough. It seems comes down to three choices for a spontaneous spellcaster: feat first then rod, rod first then feat, or the spellcaster chooses at casting time. The Circle ruling I quoted seems to say feat first then rod -- for prepared spellcasters.
solbergb 02-08-06, 01:56 AM	I don't get it Ken. Where are you getting that a spont caster behaves any differently from a prepared one? The circle entry was 100% clear, and just used wizard as an example. Reading it as only meaning wizards would also include every other spellcaster as "ambiguous" not just spont casters. I don't see it. Dave C didn't say "Prepare" anywhere. Sorcerer spells are also bumped up to higher level slots when metamagic is applied. This is not a difference between prep and spont casters. In your "ambiguous" example...empower is +2. The rod is +0. Empower bumps the slot by 2. The rod will only work if the empowered spell slot used fits the rod. I do not see any possible confusion for a level 2 spell with empower applied...he gave a level 1 and 3 example, to show when a lesser rod could and could not work. Level 2...would fail with a +2 bump like empower. Succed with a +1 bump like extend. Ken...seriously, I know you are a smart guy and I know you think about the rules and normally I really like to read what you write, even if I don't agree. But this is just...I don't get it. Where is the ambiguity? I'm with Dave C. "Pretty simple there." Just do it the same way for spont casters as you would do it for wizards, since you clearly do understand the example Dave C gave. edit: I read your entry about 6 more times trying to figure out what you're driving at and I think I finally found it. You seem to think you can apply a metamagic feat to a spell already mutated by a metamagic rod. I found this hard to understand because to me it is obvious that the rod does something to the spell after the spell has already begun casting (ie, slot is set, whether by prep or by spont application of metamagic feat). To anyone who thinks this way, your argument and concern are incomprensible. Here is the reasoning and rules support. Metamagic rods are use activated magic items. "All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). " Feats by the weilder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast. "A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast." Metamagic rods are used at spell casting time (wording identical on all, emphasis mine) " The wielder can CAST up to three spells per day that are <metamagicked> as though using the <metamagic> feat" also from the PHB metamagic description: "it is prepared and CAST as a higher-level spell. " (sorcerers obviously don't prepare, but everybody casts...and the slot gets bumped) "As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot." Finally, you must choose which spell to cast, before you can cast it (PHB magic overview) "First you must choose which spell to cast...If you're a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher....If you're a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven't reached your limit." Ie...part of casting the spell is choosing the spell level, or you can't count it against your daily limit. Therefore...you must bump the spell slot by your own feat, just as the metamagic rod general description says, then attempt to apply the rod. There is no way to cast aspell before it has had the metamagic feat applied, use the rod, then apply a metamagic later. In D&D, the spell cast is already adjusted for metamagic before it is cast...otherwise you can't choose the slot to burn, and you haven't done all the steps needed to cast a spell. There is nothing in the rules to support the idea that you can apply metamagic to a spell after the rod has mutated it - unless you take the following text in the Rods section to mean before the spell of "XX" level or lower only considers the spell unadjusted for metamagic (ie, the limit is unadjusted spell level, not the cating slot level) "Lesser and Greater Metamagic Rods: Normal metamagic rods can be used with spells of 6th level or lower. Lesser rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower, while greater rods can be used with spells of 9th level or lower. " Dave C though has ruled against that interpretation, and didn't make a special exemption for spont casters.