Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 03-01-07, 01:55 PM	Caster has Mirror Image up. Another caster throws Evan's Spiked (okay it's Evard's Black, sue me) Tentacles spell at him. Is the caster + images considered separate targets (in which case, *poof*) or a single target and each round only 1 image may get hit. I would probably rule in favor of the latter but I wanted to see what other views were. Or if there was a definitive ruling.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 02:00 PM	Caster has Mirror Image up. Another caster throws Evan's Spiked (okay it's Evard's Black, sue me) Tentacles spell at him. Is the caster + images considered separate targets (in which case, *poof*) or a single target and each round only 1 image may get hit. I would probably rule in favor of the latter but I wanted to see what other views were. Or if there was a definitive ruling. It's an area effect. Everything in the area is grappled, including the caster and all the images...the wierd part is deciding what happens to the images, because unlike a fireball, the tentacles are an ongoing thing making contact with the images....It would be much easier if the tentacles actually required touch attacks to start the grapple, because then all the images would just poof when touched. But it's a straight grapple. I'm inclided to think that all the images would get poofed anyway...
Mattastrophic 03-01-07, 02:10 PM	It requires a "successful attack" to destroy a mirror image. Evard's Black Tentacles makes no attack rolls, so it does not destroy them. Also, the mirror images appear to react to the tentacles just as the caster does, so how Mirror Images respond to AoE spells (like fireball) is covered by Mirror Image. -Matt
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 02:22 PM	It requires a "successful attack" to destroy a mirror image. Evard's Black Tentacles makes no attack rolls, so it does not destroy them. Also, the mirror images appear to react to the tentacles just as the caster does, so how Mirror Images respond to AoE spells (like fireball) is covered by Mirror Image. -Matt This is where you kinda have to make the leap from RAW to spirit of the rules, evards being a wierd corner case. Best case for scenario for your argument, the caster is grappled, and while the images may copy the grappled caster's movements, those movements won't match up, especially with tentacles passing right through the images. So even if the images aren't destroyed, it would be clear which was the real one, and which are images. Evards doesn't require a touch attack for the grapple because it's impossible not to be touched by the tentacles if you are in the area. So the images are effectively auto-touched by the tentacles and destroyed...This being the extreme option. In any event, if one with Mirror Image is caught in an evards, their images are no longer helping...
evilaustintom 03-01-07, 02:51 PM	2 points... <supporting for> 1. "Attack" vs "Attack roll" are two different things. It's like a magic missile - that's an attack, but an attack roll is not made. In an evard's black tentacle, everything is attacked, but an attack roll is not made. <supporting against> 2. Just because a creature or whatever realizes that a target is an illusion (presumably by passing through it during an attack) doesn't mean EVERYONE AROUND knows it's an illusion. Perhaps the mage who cast the tentacles spell would realize which was an illusion (since he technically interacted with the illusion due to throwing the spell at the mage), but that's neither here nor there... ...I tend to think the tentacles attack all of the illusions (just like you can magic missile multiple illusions at once). It makes more sense. Just my opinion, though. Tom Thowe
Timlagor 03-01-07, 03:19 PM	I'd leave the images active.
evilaustintom 03-01-07, 05:09 PM	I'd leave the images active. I guess the key is whether attacks are TARGETING the PC and his images. While you make a grapple check against everyone in the area, you're not 'targetting' anything. Perhaps it WOULD be handled like any other AOE spell. Look at what the tentacles would do to a swarm (which is immune to any effect that requires a single target). Great. I just talked myself out of my own argument. <sigh> Tom Thowe
Mattastrophic 03-01-07, 05:20 PM	Good catch on the Magic Missile attack roll thing... But anyways, we already know from Mirror Image how it applies to AoE spells, and since Evard's Black Tentacles is an AoE spell, that rule applies there as well, so the images stay. If the caster, for example, Benign Transposes himself out, the images are still there. -Matt
JJeff 03-01-07, 08:16 PM	But if the caster Benign Transposes himself, won't all images also seem to benign transpose and appear with the caster? Oh wait, you mean "still there" as in still active around him... I would have the images, with the caster, all grappled by the same tentacle. this maintains the illusion, removes any extra tentacle usage (since it supposed to be one tentacle per person) and simplifies things.
solbergb 03-01-07, 10:00 PM	Expect table variation. I find it is 50/50...but I'm cynical enough to have noticed that it tends to be more often pops the images when a party member is victimized by an evards and immune when my sorceress uses the spell. The sample size is small though. I don't let it worry me. My spell for removing images is whirling blade. Time enough to do that spell once the evards has grabbed them and my bard cohort has silenced them....
JamesMaissen 03-02-07, 01:22 AM	Caster has Mirror Image up. Another caster throws Evan's Spiked (okay it's Evard's Black, sue me) Tentacles spell at him. Is the caster + images considered separate targets (in which case, *poof*) or a single target and each round only 1 image may get hit. I would probably rule in favor of the latter but I wanted to see what other views were. Or if there was a definitive ruling. Evard's is not targetted. If some of the poor sods are invisible in the area they are still hit. So a target's mirror images will no more be effected by evard's as they would by fireball or any other area effect. You should only get as much variation on this as you would get variation on things like splash weapons doing 1 pt of damage to everything within 5'... In a perfect world you wouldn't even get that.. -James
chrispedersen 03-02-07, 02:19 AM	It requires a "successful attack" to destroy a mirror image. Evard's Black Tentacles makes no attack rolls, so it does not destroy them. Also, the mirror images appear to react to the tentacles just as the caster does, so how Mirror Images respond to AoE spells (like fireball) is covered by Mirror Image. -Matt The definition of attack is covered in the PHB. An attack does *not* have to include an attack roll. For example, casting an offensive spell is an attack - turning, can be an attack. The tentacles grapple everything in the area... and destroy them. C
King Kashue 03-02-07, 03:10 AM	Text of Evard's (PHB p. 228) "They grasp and entwine around creatures that enter the area." "Every creature within the area of the spell must make a grapple check..." Text of Mirror Image (PHB p. 254) "An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled" Unless the figments count as creatures (which they don't), and the tentacles can see (which they can't), the most likely result is no effect. As for what happens, the text of mirror image is "Figments seem to react normally to area spells", and Evard's is an area spell, so it looks like the images are grappled.
Timlagor 03-02-07, 07:56 AM	You might get some variation on the tentacles reacting to the images though. You could see one grappled mage and a bunch of mage-images looking grappled but without any tentacles around them :)
Zanzibax 03-02-07, 08:32 AM	I guess the key is whether attacks are TARGETING the PC and his images. While you make a grapple check against everyone in the area, you're not 'targetting' anything. Perhaps it WOULD be handled like any other AOE spell. Look at what the tentacles would do to a swarm (which is immune to any effect that requires a single target). Great. I just talked myself out of my own argument. <sigh> Tom Thowe What would the tentacles do to a swarm (or a mob)?
KarmaInferno 03-02-07, 10:34 AM	You might get some variation on the tentacles reacting to the images though. You could see one grappled mage and a bunch of mage-images looking grappled but without any tentacles around them :) The rules do not say so, but personally I feel that the Mirror Image should adjust itself to include illusionary tentacles grappling the images, in order to maintain the overall effect of the spell. I mean, I wouldn't use that DMing a LG game, but esthetically it feels more "right" to me. -karma