MoMF and Black Pudding split ability? [Archive] - Wizards Community

MoMF and Black Pudding split ability? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jay_Ibero_911
10-29-06, 12:08 AM I don't know if this has come up before, but since Split is an extraordinary ability, the MoMF would get the ability. So what happens when the MoMF splits, and then the wild shape expires? Do the extra oozes disappear? Did you just clone yourself? And how much HP would you have, just the ammount the one ooze had, or the total ammount among all of them? Are there any MoMF of high enough level in LG to encounter this problem anyway?
ShinAkuma2
10-29-06, 12:47 AM ...Uh-oh. I think you broke D&D. Again.
Arvagor
10-29-06, 01:08 AM At a a minimum, you'd need to be a Drd 5/MoMF 8, so yes, it is possible in LG.

IMO, here's how I would rule it, and it's a ruling I know many MoMFs would not like, but hey, you're not here to like me... ;)

You have a mind, a black pudding does not. If you choose to Split (Ex) when hit by a slashing weapon (and yes, I will give you that choice to ignore the ability), then you get to pick one of the puddings -- that pudding is now you, with half the HP you had before you were split. The other pudding is now a genuine black pudding under the control of me, the DM, with the same number of HP as you, with the same motivations that a genuine black pudding would have, likely attacking whatever it/you was last attacking. Once that creature is defeated, it will move on to the next closest organic or metallic object/creature, although IMO it would not attack another pudding, so you're safe at least... :tongue:

If you choose to end the wild shape, then you have however many HP "your" particular pudding had when you ended it, not some combo of all the puddings split off from you. You have not cloned yourself.

Personally, I can't see why anyone would willingly choose a form with the potential to instantly cut your hit points in half. As someone said to a MoMF sitting at my table at a recent con, "Just because you can choose a form, doesn't mean you have to choose that form" (the same can be said for many of the other dubious choices players make...)
Japangirl
10-29-06, 01:51 AM I would rule it completely differently from Arvagor, and in a much more positive light for the MoMF. If you split, you would basically have a split consciousness at that point and control two half-hitpoint oozes. And so on with the splitting. Each little oozeling that gets smushed does do that HP damage to you, but if you choose to end your wild shape at any time all the unsmushed pieces reform back into you.

The reason I disagree with Arvagor is that the black pudding doesn't actually exist, as it is you. And if part of it splits off, it's still part of you. If you end your wild shape, the black pudding that splits off doesn't suddenly exist out of thin air for the DM to play with.

I guess what this shows is expect lots of table variation.
Simpi
10-29-06, 03:30 AM I would rule it completely differently from Arvagor, and in a much more positive light for the MoMF. If you split, you would basically have a split consciousness at that point and control two half-hitpoint oozes. And so on with the splitting. Each little oozeling that gets smushed does do that HP damage to you, but if you choose to end your wild shape at any time all the unsmushed pieces reform back into you.

I am interested how you would rule in regards to spellcasting in this case? I would only ever allow the "master form", not the lil puddings to do that. Then again, I think most druid spells require Verbal components (and Oozes do not have mouths) and it is debatable whether a slimy pseudopod is something you can do precise 'hand' movements with (Somatic component).

Sampo Haarlaa
Naerie Triad
Japangirl
10-29-06, 11:32 AM Um, I hadn't really thought of that. Definitely only one ooze can cast a spell, but I'm not sure I'd set which one, since the druid effectively exists in all of them at the same time. I'd say that because the druid exists in all of them, they all cast it at the same time and all provoke :D. Each ooze has to make a concentration check separately to cast defensively, and if one fails they all fail.

Honestly, if a druid has Natural Spell, I don't think I can prevent an ooze from casting. The ooze can still make noises (if *squish* is a noise) and still move by jiggling, so it can still use the feat to cast.
JamesMaissen
10-29-06, 12:31 PM I don't know if this has come up before, but since Split is an extraordinary ability, the MoMF would get the ability. So what happens when the MoMF splits, and then the wild shape expires? Do the extra oozes disappear? Did you just clone yourself? And how much HP would you have, just the ammount the one ooze had, or the total ammount among all of them? Are there any MoMF of high enough level in LG to encounter this problem anyway?

This comes up every so often.

Yes a high enough level MMF can become a Black Pudding and split.

What people miss is the next resulting part. Namely that the part of the ooze that is not the MMF (pick which one) goes away as soon as it's separated from the MMF. This follows from the polymorph rules.

-James
Arvagor
10-29-06, 03:38 PM What people miss is the next resulting part. Namely that the part of the ooze that is not the MMF (pick which one) goes away as soon as it's separated from the MMF. This follows from the polymorph rules.Good point; that's what I get for forgetting that d20srd.org has the polymorph errata included. :embarrass

So in a nutshell, an MoMF in black pudding form who splits turns into a black pudding with half as many hit points, while the other "pudding" reverts to a lump of lifeless humanoid flesh.
_m_
10-29-06, 05:45 PM to a lump of lifeless humanoid flesh.

gee thats some lovely imagery there. 5 ranks: craft disturbing mental image. cheers :D
Arvagor
10-29-06, 06:07 PM gee thats some lovely imagery there. 5 ranks: craft disturbing mental image. cheers :DNo problem... I actually kind of picture it as the same as the scene in Galaxy Quest, when Fred tries to digitize the pig-lizard, and it turns inside out? Yeah, it kinda looks like that...

Seriously, though... It's not like being able to split one's mind into multiple separate entities is something the designers had not thought of. There's as least one psionic power -- schism, for Telepath 4 -- that is designed to do it. As far as magic goes, I can't think of anything similar, though; magic jar simply lets you switch your existing consciousness to another body, not split it. If the MoMF class abilities were supposed to allow that, then they would describe it; they don't however, and as JamesMaissen pointed out, we don't have to worry about...
_m_
10-29-06, 06:28 PM there are a few options if you want mutliple you's though. other than the out of combat clone, im currently building a mind bender. that way you can walk around with multiple people, kind of like several cohorts if you like.

what i cant fathom is why anyone would want to shift into an ooze!? have you any idea how ugly they are? how bad they smell!? eeep!
Prochytes
10-30-06, 05:01 AM what i cant fathom is why anyone would want to shift into an ooze!? have you any idea how ugly they are? how bad they smell!? eeep!

Our local MomF spends a fair amount of his time as a gelatinous cube. Engulf+paralysis can be very nice. And if people move to get out of his way, it plays merry hell with their tactical placements. Shame about the AC.

Blindsight is not to be sniffed at, either. Even if oozes are :) .
_m_
10-30-06, 08:16 AM aye, but other things get blindsight, and they arent big and disgusting, and dont have 'ooze' in the title.
Jay_Ibero_911
10-30-06, 09:28 PM This comes up every so often.

Yes a high enough level MMF can become a Black Pudding and split.

What people miss is the next resulting part. Namely that the part of the ooze that is not the MMF (pick which one) goes away as soon as it's separated from the MMF. This follows from the polymorph rules.

-James

Sure, come up with the EASY answer why don't you...But how do you decide which one is really you after the split? Would the player choose? DM? Roll a die? The difference between the Split ability and just having a part cut off is that Split is more like a cell undergowing Mitosis, or Meiosis, whichever it is, so while it COULD easily fall under that ruling, it could just as easily be adjucated otherwise, as has previously been noted...
jmweber9
11-07-06, 10:47 PM Our local MomF spends a fair amount of his time as a gelatinous cube. Engulf+paralysis can be very nice. And if people move to get out of his way, it plays merry hell with their tactical placements. Shame about the AC.

I play a MoMF and used to use the gelatinous cube a lot as well. Then the MM errata came out and reduced the size of it from Huge to Large. You can only engulf medium or smaller creatures now and, at APL 12+, most of what you run into is large and bigger.

And, because of the dire issues of 'splitting' there's no point in taking any of the other ooze shapes in combat unless you're facing something that can ONLY deal bludgeoning damage.

They are useful for other situation though, by utilizing their acid for non-combat purposes. But for me, if I want to use acid to get through something, I just shift into a delver and have at it!

John
_m_
11-07-06, 11:11 PM are there any 5 druid 10 momf's in lgh?

oo, this gives me an idea for a fun new thread.
jmweber9
11-08-06, 11:28 AM are there any 5 druid 10 momf's in lgh?

oo, this gives me an idea for a fun new thread.

Yep. I play one and I know of at least 2 others. Did you have a question/ comment about playing one?

John
_m_
11-08-06, 05:10 PM Yep. I play one and I know of at least 2 others. Did you have a question/ comment about playing one?

John

not really. i just like knowing whos around :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 10-29-06, 12:08 AM	I don't know if this has come up before, but since Split is an extraordinary ability, the MoMF would get the ability. So what happens when the MoMF splits, and then the wild shape expires? Do the extra oozes disappear? Did you just clone yourself? And how much HP would you have, just the ammount the one ooze had, or the total ammount among all of them? Are there any MoMF of high enough level in LG to encounter this problem anyway?
ShinAkuma2 10-29-06, 12:47 AM	...Uh-oh. I think you broke D&D. Again.
Arvagor 10-29-06, 01:08 AM	At a a minimum, you'd need to be a Drd 5/MoMF 8, so yes, it is possible in LG. IMO, here's how I would rule it, and it's a ruling I know many MoMFs would not like, but hey, you're not here to like me... ;) You have a mind, a black pudding does not. If you choose to Split (Ex) when hit by a slashing weapon (and yes, I will give you that choice to ignore the ability), then you get to pick one of the puddings -- that pudding is now you, with half the HP you had before you were split. The other pudding is now a genuine black pudding under the control of me, the DM, with the same number of HP as you, with the same motivations that a genuine black pudding would have, likely attacking whatever it/you was last attacking. Once that creature is defeated, it will move on to the next closest organic or metallic object/creature, although IMO it would not attack another pudding, so you're safe at least... :tongue: If you choose to end the wild shape, then you have however many HP "your" particular pudding had when you ended it, not some combo of all the puddings split off from you. You have not cloned yourself. Personally, I can't see why anyone would willingly choose a form with the potential to instantly cut your hit points in half. As someone said to a MoMF sitting at my table at a recent con, "Just because you can choose a form, doesn't mean you have to choose that form" (the same can be said for many of the other dubious choices players make...)
Japangirl 10-29-06, 01:51 AM	I would rule it completely differently from Arvagor, and in a much more positive light for the MoMF. If you split, you would basically have a split consciousness at that point and control two half-hitpoint oozes. And so on with the splitting. Each little oozeling that gets smushed does do that HP damage to you, but if you choose to end your wild shape at any time all the unsmushed pieces reform back into you. The reason I disagree with Arvagor is that the black pudding doesn't actually exist, as it is you. And if part of it splits off, it's still part of you. If you end your wild shape, the black pudding that splits off doesn't suddenly exist out of thin air for the DM to play with. I guess what this shows is expect lots of table variation.
Simpi 10-29-06, 03:30 AM	I would rule it completely differently from Arvagor, and in a much more positive light for the MoMF. If you split, you would basically have a split consciousness at that point and control two half-hitpoint oozes. And so on with the splitting. Each little oozeling that gets smushed does do that HP damage to you, but if you choose to end your wild shape at any time all the unsmushed pieces reform back into you. I am interested how you would rule in regards to spellcasting in this case? I would only ever allow the "master form", not the lil puddings to do that. Then again, I think most druid spells require Verbal components (and Oozes do not have mouths) and it is debatable whether a slimy pseudopod is something you can do precise 'hand' movements with (Somatic component). Sampo Haarlaa Naerie Triad
Japangirl 10-29-06, 11:32 AM	Um, I hadn't really thought of that. Definitely only one ooze can cast a spell, but I'm not sure I'd set which one, since the druid effectively exists in all of them at the same time. I'd say that because the druid exists in all of them, they all cast it at the same time and all provoke :D. Each ooze has to make a concentration check separately to cast defensively, and if one fails they all fail. Honestly, if a druid has Natural Spell, I don't think I can prevent an ooze from casting. The ooze can still make noises (if squish is a noise) and still move by jiggling, so it can still use the feat to cast.
JamesMaissen 10-29-06, 12:31 PM	I don't know if this has come up before, but since Split is an extraordinary ability, the MoMF would get the ability. So what happens when the MoMF splits, and then the wild shape expires? Do the extra oozes disappear? Did you just clone yourself? And how much HP would you have, just the ammount the one ooze had, or the total ammount among all of them? Are there any MoMF of high enough level in LG to encounter this problem anyway? This comes up every so often. Yes a high enough level MMF can become a Black Pudding and split. What people miss is the next resulting part. Namely that the part of the ooze that is not the MMF (pick which one) goes away as soon as it's separated from the MMF. This follows from the polymorph rules. -James
Arvagor 10-29-06, 03:38 PM	What people miss is the next resulting part. Namely that the part of the ooze that is not the MMF (pick which one) goes away as soon as it's separated from the MMF. This follows from the polymorph rules.Good point; that's what I get for forgetting that d20srd.org has the polymorph errata included. :embarrass So in a nutshell, an MoMF in black pudding form who splits turns into a black pudding with half as many hit points, while the other "pudding" reverts to a lump of lifeless humanoid flesh.
_m_ 10-29-06, 05:45 PM	to a lump of lifeless humanoid flesh. gee thats some lovely imagery there. 5 ranks: craft disturbing mental image. cheers :D
Arvagor 10-29-06, 06:07 PM	gee thats some lovely imagery there. 5 ranks: craft disturbing mental image. cheers :DNo problem... I actually kind of picture it as the same as the scene in Galaxy Quest, when Fred tries to digitize the pig-lizard, and it turns inside out? Yeah, it kinda looks like that... Seriously, though... It's not like being able to split one's mind into multiple separate entities is something the designers had not thought of. There's as least one psionic power -- schism, for Telepath 4 -- that is designed to do it. As far as magic goes, I can't think of anything similar, though; magic jar simply lets you switch your existing consciousness to another body, not split it. If the MoMF class abilities were supposed to allow that, then they would describe it; they don't however, and as JamesMaissen pointed out, we don't have to worry about...
_m_ 10-29-06, 06:28 PM	there are a few options if you want mutliple you's though. other than the out of combat clone, im currently building a mind bender. that way you can walk around with multiple people, kind of like several cohorts if you like. what i cant fathom is why anyone would want to shift into an ooze!? have you any idea how ugly they are? how bad they smell!? eeep!
Prochytes 10-30-06, 05:01 AM	what i cant fathom is why anyone would want to shift into an ooze!? have you any idea how ugly they are? how bad they smell!? eeep! Our local MomF spends a fair amount of his time as a gelatinous cube. Engulf+paralysis can be very nice. And if people move to get out of his way, it plays merry hell with their tactical placements. Shame about the AC. Blindsight is not to be sniffed at, either. Even if oozes are :) .
_m_ 10-30-06, 08:16 AM	aye, but other things get blindsight, and they arent big and disgusting, and dont have 'ooze' in the title.
Jay_Ibero_911 10-30-06, 09:28 PM	This comes up every so often. Yes a high enough level MMF can become a Black Pudding and split. What people miss is the next resulting part. Namely that the part of the ooze that is not the MMF (pick which one) goes away as soon as it's separated from the MMF. This follows from the polymorph rules. -James Sure, come up with the EASY answer why don't you...But how do you decide which one is really you after the split? Would the player choose? DM? Roll a die? The difference between the Split ability and just having a part cut off is that Split is more like a cell undergowing Mitosis, or Meiosis, whichever it is, so while it COULD easily fall under that ruling, it could just as easily be adjucated otherwise, as has previously been noted...
jmweber9 11-07-06, 10:47 PM	Our local MomF spends a fair amount of his time as a gelatinous cube. Engulf+paralysis can be very nice. And if people move to get out of his way, it plays merry hell with their tactical placements. Shame about the AC. I play a MoMF and used to use the gelatinous cube a lot as well. Then the MM errata came out and reduced the size of it from Huge to Large. You can only engulf medium or smaller creatures now and, at APL 12+, most of what you run into is large and bigger. And, because of the dire issues of 'splitting' there's no point in taking any of the other ooze shapes in combat unless you're facing something that can ONLY deal bludgeoning damage. They are useful for other situation though, by utilizing their acid for non-combat purposes. But for me, if I want to use acid to get through something, I just shift into a delver and have at it! John
_m_ 11-07-06, 11:11 PM	are there any 5 druid 10 momf's in lgh? oo, this gives me an idea for a fun new thread.
jmweber9 11-08-06, 11:28 AM	are there any 5 druid 10 momf's in lgh? oo, this gives me an idea for a fun new thread. Yep. I play one and I know of at least 2 others. Did you have a question/ comment about playing one? John
_m_ 11-08-06, 05:10 PM	Yep. I play one and I know of at least 2 others. Did you have a question/ comment about playing one? John not really. i just like knowing whos around :D