Monkey Grip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monkey Grip [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
spestocks
07-23-07, 02:36 PM Sorry if this has been answered before, but I can't seem to find the answer (if only these boards had search capability....).

In LG, concerning Monkey Grip specifically, do you have to gain access to larger weapons, or if I am a human, say, can I purchase a Large weapon right off the bat? I know the CS says tiny through large are open, but I wasn't sure if it is race-specific in that matter.

Thanks!
bitznarf
07-23-07, 02:49 PM If you get access to a weapon through the LGCS or from a metaorg, you can purchase one of any size from tiny through large regardless of race/feats or anything else. If you find one on an AR that doesn't have a listed size, it is sized for you. For example if you find a +1 flaming longsword, for a human that would be a medium weapon. For a halfing that would be a small weapon, and for a level 6+ centaur PC that would be a large weapon. If however you see access to a '+1 merciful large spiked chain', that is a large sized weapon for *all* PCs. Monkey grip changes none of that.

Edit: Oh, and by the way, if you are taking monkey grip because of an apparent min/maxing advantage, there isn't one, you would be literally wasting a feat in virtually every case. If its for PC style or something like that its a different story.
spestocks
07-23-07, 02:58 PM OK, so if as a lvl 1 fighter I wanted to take Monkey Grip, I could then buy a Large Longsword to "go with it", yes?
bitznarf
07-23-07, 03:01 PM You could yes.
Banor
07-23-07, 03:09 PM Now you better have a good STR score because that -2 to hit will hit hard at lower level
spestocks
07-23-07, 03:58 PM Quite right -- thanks all for the help!
Timlagor
07-29-07, 04:15 PM OK, so if as a lvl 1 fighter I wanted to take Monkey Grip, I could then buy a Large Longsword to "go with it", yes?

Just don't be surprised if you get looks of disdain from both the power-gamers (it's not a good Feat) and the 'self-styled roleplayers'* (it's "cheesy") ...and the people who just think it's a silly idea ;)

Very very few people are going to say "oh wow you have a really big sword that's so cool!" ...but NPC guards will probably be antagonistic.
KarmaInferno
07-29-07, 08:51 PM I have a low level dwarf that duel wields greataxes.

Feat-intensive, yes. Sub-optimal in combat, yes.

But he's fun to play, and the one time I've scored a double crit was priceless.

-karma
Arvagor
07-29-07, 09:05 PM I have a low level dwarf that duel wields greataxes.How so? Greataxes are 2-handed weapons for you, and Monkey Grip won't change that...
bitznarf
07-29-07, 09:23 PM Effectivly a large sized battle axe has very similar stats to a greataxe.
boolean
07-29-07, 09:54 PM Effectivly a large sized waraxe has the same stats as a greataxe.

Not really. Medium greataxe = 1d12. Large dwarven waraxe = 2d8.

Plus, Monkey Grip specifies that you cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand.

I suspect that there's some confusion with the 3.0 version of the feat, which was quite different from the current one.
bitznarf
07-29-07, 10:07 PM Eh, I meant battle axe. 1d8 -> 2d6. The rest I don't know about. I've never really looked at Monkey Grip in detail.
clannagh
07-30-07, 01:44 AM Not really. Medium greataxe = 1d12. Large dwarven waraxe = 2d8.

Plus, Monkey Grip specifies that you cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand.

I suspect that there's some confusion with the 3.0 version of the feat, which was quite different from the current one.

true

but if you wanted be really silly you could build a barbarian dwarf with monkey grip and oversized TWF and weild a large dwarven waraxe in your primary ahand and a normal one in your offhand .. then get enlarge person cast on you for a huge axe in your primary hand and large in the offhand :)

its almost so stupid I am tempted to do it
Umbra_Kaitou
07-31-07, 12:47 PM I know a halfling with monkey grip who never fails to baffle the DMs

I personally use it on my little human female warrior...hers is a large greatsword named Charisma, since I use it to intimidate >_>

To me its not trying to either break anything or be optimal, its just a fun thing to have.
Jay_Ibero_911
07-31-07, 08:19 PM For the ultimate anti-optimal person, you can invest in exotic weapon proficiency (Warmace), Monkey Grip, and Two-Weapon Fighting/Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. Wield a large warmace in your main hand for 3d6 and medium one in your off-hand for 1d12. -4 to hit with your primary when twf, -2 to off hand, and -2 to AC from the weapons.
clannagh
07-31-07, 09:56 PM For the ultimate anti-optimal person, you can invest in exotic weapon proficiency (Warmace), Monkey Grip, and Two-Weapon Fighting/Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. Wield a large warmace in your main hand for 3d6 and medium one in your off-hand for 1d12. -4 to hit with your primary when twf, -2 to off hand, and -2 to AC from the weapons.

actually .. to be super-sub-optimal make it a kobold so they are swinging medium and small warmaces .. then they need to take a level of soeceror or UMD and buy an enlarge wand to get themselves enlarged to medium to get the large warmace in their first round of combat.
TheBlackFlail
08-02-07, 04:20 PM Monkey Grip is just plain wrong on so many different levels that it makes the baby Buddha cry. (It's suboptimal, it's cheesy, it stretches the imagination beyond its ordinary limit (wielding weapons bigger than you are...)).
bitznarf
08-02-07, 04:21 PM Monkey Grip is just plain wrong on so many different levels that it makes the baby Buddha cry. (It's suboptimal, it's cheesy, it stretches the imagination beyond its ordinary limit (wielding weapons bigger than you are...)).
I thought the generally accepted definition of cheesy precluded it also being suboptimal. But stretching the imagination is a good thing in my opinion. But you haven't seen 'bigger than you are' till you see an enlarged goliath wielding a gargantuan goliath great hammer (6d6 damage).
Jay_Ibero_911
08-02-07, 09:32 PM I thought the generally accepted definition of cheesy precluded it also being suboptimal. But stretching the imagination is a good thing in my opinion. But you haven't seen 'bigger than you are' till you see an enlarged goliath wielding a gargantuan goliath great hammer (6d6 damage).

An enlarged Goliath would only be able to wield a Huge Goliath Greathammer. An enlarged Goliath is large size, and powerful build lets him wield huge weapons, which does not stack with Monkey Grip.
Samwise
08-02-07, 11:44 PM Fortunately, goliaths, like centaurs, are monstrous humanoids, and can not be enlarged with enlarge person.

The real solution of course is to get access to the mighty wallop spell from Races of the Dragon cast at high level.
Banor
08-03-07, 12:35 AM enlarged goliath wielding a gargantuan goliath great hammer (6d6 damage).

You forgot to mention crit x4 :P, yea crit from that baby will hurt alot:)
clannagh
08-03-07, 01:11 AM You forgot to mention crit x4 :P, yea crit from that baby will hurt alot:)

giving a deadly charging enlarged Goliath cavalier 6*6 = 36d6 on a crit :)

unfortunately it doesnt quite work that way as pointed out above :)
Timlagor
08-03-07, 01:56 AM Are goliaths "people"?
KShaver
08-03-07, 10:47 AM Psionic expansion works on goliaths. That at least gets them up to a huge weapon without taking the penalty for monkey grip.
Umbra_Kaitou
08-03-07, 12:29 PM Isn't there a spell from complete mage or something that enlarges a persons weapon one size category without penalty...I want to see that combined with Monkey Grip >_>
bitznarf
08-03-07, 12:42 PM Its the huge->gargantuan change that is the bad one (or good depending on perspective) when it comes to the goliath warhammer. Before that change Monkey Grip is a -2 to hit for +3.5 damage which is a worse trade off than power attack is. But from huge->gargantuan the change is +2d6 or +7 damage at the cost of -2 to hit, a 1:3.5 ratio versus 1:2 for power attack.
Lupo
08-03-07, 01:51 PM Isn't there a spell from complete mage or something that enlarges a persons weapon one size category without penalty...I want to see that combined with Monkey Grip >_>

"Shillelagh" (PHB), changes a simple club or quarterstaff damage to TWO sizes categories up.

"Earth Hammer" (Cl 5, Pal 3; swift spell) from RoS changes the weapon damage type to bludgeoning and adamantine. damage category goes one size up.

ciao

martin m.
Grantor
08-03-07, 04:09 PM Why are we talking about Goliaths on an LG board?

But, while we are, Mountain Rage allows a Goliath to enlarge themselves as a free action as part of a barbarian rage.
bitznarf
08-03-07, 04:30 PM I've seen goliath NPCs in LG. Complete with large sized goliath greathammers and barbarian rage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
spestocks 07-23-07, 02:36 PM	Sorry if this has been answered before, but I can't seem to find the answer (if only these boards had search capability....). In LG, concerning Monkey Grip specifically, do you have to gain access to larger weapons, or if I am a human, say, can I purchase a Large weapon right off the bat? I know the CS says tiny through large are open, but I wasn't sure if it is race-specific in that matter. Thanks!
bitznarf 07-23-07, 02:49 PM	If you get access to a weapon through the LGCS or from a metaorg, you can purchase one of any size from tiny through large regardless of race/feats or anything else. If you find one on an AR that doesn't have a listed size, it is sized for you. For example if you find a +1 flaming longsword, for a human that would be a medium weapon. For a halfing that would be a small weapon, and for a level 6+ centaur PC that would be a large weapon. If however you see access to a '+1 merciful large spiked chain', that is a large sized weapon for all PCs. Monkey grip changes none of that. Edit: Oh, and by the way, if you are taking monkey grip because of an apparent min/maxing advantage, there isn't one, you would be literally wasting a feat in virtually every case. If its for PC style or something like that its a different story.
spestocks 07-23-07, 02:58 PM	OK, so if as a lvl 1 fighter I wanted to take Monkey Grip, I could then buy a Large Longsword to "go with it", yes?
bitznarf 07-23-07, 03:01 PM	You could yes.
Banor 07-23-07, 03:09 PM	Now you better have a good STR score because that -2 to hit will hit hard at lower level
spestocks 07-23-07, 03:58 PM	Quite right -- thanks all for the help!
Timlagor 07-29-07, 04:15 PM	OK, so if as a lvl 1 fighter I wanted to take Monkey Grip, I could then buy a Large Longsword to "go with it", yes? Just don't be surprised if you get looks of disdain from both the power-gamers (it's not a good Feat) and the 'self-styled roleplayers'* (it's "cheesy") ...and the people who just think it's a silly idea ;) Very very few people are going to say "oh wow you have a really big sword that's so cool!" ...but NPC guards will probably be antagonistic.
KarmaInferno 07-29-07, 08:51 PM	I have a low level dwarf that duel wields greataxes. Feat-intensive, yes. Sub-optimal in combat, yes. But he's fun to play, and the one time I've scored a double crit was priceless. -karma
Arvagor 07-29-07, 09:05 PM	I have a low level dwarf that duel wields greataxes.How so? Greataxes are 2-handed weapons for you, and Monkey Grip won't change that...
bitznarf 07-29-07, 09:23 PM	Effectivly a large sized battle axe has very similar stats to a greataxe.
boolean 07-29-07, 09:54 PM	Effectivly a large sized waraxe has the same stats as a greataxe. Not really. Medium greataxe = 1d12. Large dwarven waraxe = 2d8. Plus, Monkey Grip specifies that you cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand. I suspect that there's some confusion with the 3.0 version of the feat, which was quite different from the current one.
bitznarf 07-29-07, 10:07 PM	Eh, I meant battle axe. 1d8 -> 2d6. The rest I don't know about. I've never really looked at Monkey Grip in detail.
clannagh 07-30-07, 01:44 AM	Not really. Medium greataxe = 1d12. Large dwarven waraxe = 2d8. Plus, Monkey Grip specifies that you cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand. I suspect that there's some confusion with the 3.0 version of the feat, which was quite different from the current one. true but if you wanted be really silly you could build a barbarian dwarf with monkey grip and oversized TWF and weild a large dwarven waraxe in your primary ahand and a normal one in your offhand .. then get enlarge person cast on you for a huge axe in your primary hand and large in the offhand :) its almost so stupid I am tempted to do it
Umbra_Kaitou 07-31-07, 12:47 PM	I know a halfling with monkey grip who never fails to baffle the DMs I personally use it on my little human female warrior...hers is a large greatsword named Charisma, since I use it to intimidate >_> To me its not trying to either break anything or be optimal, its just a fun thing to have.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-31-07, 08:19 PM	For the ultimate anti-optimal person, you can invest in exotic weapon proficiency (Warmace), Monkey Grip, and Two-Weapon Fighting/Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. Wield a large warmace in your main hand for 3d6 and medium one in your off-hand for 1d12. -4 to hit with your primary when twf, -2 to off hand, and -2 to AC from the weapons.
clannagh 07-31-07, 09:56 PM	For the ultimate anti-optimal person, you can invest in exotic weapon proficiency (Warmace), Monkey Grip, and Two-Weapon Fighting/Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. Wield a large warmace in your main hand for 3d6 and medium one in your off-hand for 1d12. -4 to hit with your primary when twf, -2 to off hand, and -2 to AC from the weapons. actually .. to be super-sub-optimal make it a kobold so they are swinging medium and small warmaces .. then they need to take a level of soeceror or UMD and buy an enlarge wand to get themselves enlarged to medium to get the large warmace in their first round of combat.
TheBlackFlail 08-02-07, 04:20 PM	Monkey Grip is just plain wrong on so many different levels that it makes the baby Buddha cry. (It's suboptimal, it's cheesy, it stretches the imagination beyond its ordinary limit (wielding weapons bigger than you are...)).
bitznarf 08-02-07, 04:21 PM	Monkey Grip is just plain wrong on so many different levels that it makes the baby Buddha cry. (It's suboptimal, it's cheesy, it stretches the imagination beyond its ordinary limit (wielding weapons bigger than you are...)). I thought the generally accepted definition of cheesy precluded it also being suboptimal. But stretching the imagination is a good thing in my opinion. But you haven't seen 'bigger than you are' till you see an enlarged goliath wielding a gargantuan goliath great hammer (6d6 damage).
Jay_Ibero_911 08-02-07, 09:32 PM	I thought the generally accepted definition of cheesy precluded it also being suboptimal. But stretching the imagination is a good thing in my opinion. But you haven't seen 'bigger than you are' till you see an enlarged goliath wielding a gargantuan goliath great hammer (6d6 damage). An enlarged Goliath would only be able to wield a Huge Goliath Greathammer. An enlarged Goliath is large size, and powerful build lets him wield huge weapons, which does not stack with Monkey Grip.
Samwise 08-02-07, 11:44 PM	Fortunately, goliaths, like centaurs, are monstrous humanoids, and can not be enlarged with enlarge person. The real solution of course is to get access to the mighty wallop spell from Races of the Dragon cast at high level.
Banor 08-03-07, 12:35 AM	enlarged goliath wielding a gargantuan goliath great hammer (6d6 damage). You forgot to mention crit x4 :P, yea crit from that baby will hurt alot:)
clannagh 08-03-07, 01:11 AM	You forgot to mention crit x4 :P, yea crit from that baby will hurt alot:) giving a deadly charging enlarged Goliath cavalier 6*6 = 36d6 on a crit :) unfortunately it doesnt quite work that way as pointed out above :)
Timlagor 08-03-07, 01:56 AM	Are goliaths "people"?
KShaver 08-03-07, 10:47 AM	Psionic expansion works on goliaths. That at least gets them up to a huge weapon without taking the penalty for monkey grip.
Umbra_Kaitou 08-03-07, 12:29 PM	Isn't there a spell from complete mage or something that enlarges a persons weapon one size category without penalty...I want to see that combined with Monkey Grip >_>
bitznarf 08-03-07, 12:42 PM	Its the huge->gargantuan change that is the bad one (or good depending on perspective) when it comes to the goliath warhammer. Before that change Monkey Grip is a -2 to hit for +3.5 damage which is a worse trade off than power attack is. But from huge->gargantuan the change is +2d6 or +7 damage at the cost of -2 to hit, a 1:3.5 ratio versus 1:2 for power attack.
Lupo 08-03-07, 01:51 PM	Isn't there a spell from complete mage or something that enlarges a persons weapon one size category without penalty...I want to see that combined with Monkey Grip >_> "Shillelagh" (PHB), changes a simple club or quarterstaff damage to TWO sizes categories up. "Earth Hammer" (Cl 5, Pal 3; swift spell) from RoS changes the weapon damage type to bludgeoning and adamantine. damage category goes one size up. ciao martin m.
Grantor 08-03-07, 04:09 PM	Why are we talking about Goliaths on an LG board? But, while we are, Mountain Rage allows a Goliath to enlarge themselves as a free action as part of a barbarian rage.
bitznarf 08-03-07, 04:30 PM	I've seen goliath NPCs in LG. Complete with large sized goliath greathammers and barbarian rage.