Post/Author/DateTime	Post
catsclaw 06-11-07, 03:38 PM	So I was playing my monk over the weekend in a particularly nasty battle interactive, and got into a rules argument over tanglefoot bags. Here's the relevant passage: When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater. A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. A character capable of spellcasting who is bound by the goo must make a DC 15 Concentration check to cast a spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately.I threw a tanglefoot bag at a wolf, hit, and moved away. The next round, the judge had the wolf bite its way out, and then said the wolf was no longer entangled, nor did it have to move at half speed. He made the following assertions: 1) If you make your reflex save when you're hit with a tanglefoot bag, you are not affected (I believe you are entangled regardless; the reflex save only determines whether you are stuck to the ground) 2) Once you do 15 points of damage to the bag, you are no longer affected (I think the damage only cuts yourself loose, you still need to wait 2d4 rounds to be unentangled) 3) If one of us cast fireball on the entangled creature, it would burn away the goo and unstick the creature (I think only a slashing weapon unsticks you). What's the right ruling?
Rerednaw 06-11-07, 03:55 PM	...He made the following assertions: 1) If you make your reflex save when you're hit with a tanglefoot bag, you are not affected (I believe you are entangled regardless; the reflex save only determines whether you are stuck to the ground) 2) Once you do 15 points of damage to the bag, you are no longer affected (I think the damage only cuts yourself loose, you still need to wait 2d4 rounds to be unentangled) 3) If one of us cast fireball on the entangled creature, it would burn away the goo and unstick the creature (I think only a slashing weapon unsticks you). What's the right ruling? Looks like he made some house rulings. By the RAW When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. Nowhere does it indicate that making the save entirely negates the effect. In fact the saving throw only comes in with the following sentence: An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater. The next assertion is tricky. Cutting yourself free is indicated. Nothing is explicitly stated about how to 'get rid of the rest of the goo' when you make your initial save or have broken free, other than the stated duration. That's a DM call there. The third assertion he made is not supported by the text. There is nothing in the text that says in addition to a slashing weapon, magical attacks may be used to remove the goo. Hpoefully there's an official ruling somewhere...
pedr 06-11-07, 04:13 PM	I see no room for DM calls, actually. You're covered with lots and lots and lots of sticky glue. If you pour universal solvent on it, it goes away. Otherwise it gets brittle in 2d4 rounds and breaks off. If you're not careful/lucky, when you got hit by it you also got stuck to the ground. If you want to be able to move, you have to break or cut yourself free. Simple, although the wording is, like many things in the equipment chapter, quite dense. It takes a bit of time and re-reading to 'get' the meaning, sometimes. Of course they're powerful things - some think too powerful - and so perhaps the judge, in adversarial 'battle interactive' mode, felt that allowing it to work your way (they way it should work) would make things too easy for you. There's no excuse for that, but it's a possible reason.
Sieylianna 06-11-07, 05:36 PM	Why would they have rules for scraping off the goo if it didn't accomplish anything? You've taken X amount of time and removed enough of the goo that you are no longer affected. I'd also agree with the judge on the fireball. So we consider the goo to have DR 1,000,000/slashing. Magic ignores DR. I think you have a point on the first issue. Ed
pedr 06-11-07, 05:53 PM	Why would they have rules for scraping off the goo if it didn't accomplish anything? So that if you are stuck to the floor you can unstick yourself.You've taken X amount of time and removed enough of the goo that you are no longer affected.That's not what the rules say. The rules say that if you are hit you are entangled. If you are stuck to the floor you can scrape enough goo off so that you can move (at half speed, and still entangled).I'd also agree with the judge on the fireball. So we consider the goo to have DR 1,000,000/slashing. Magic ignores DR.Why 'consider' anything? It doesn't have DR/slashing - if it did, that's what it would say. What it says is that to remove enough goo so that you can move, if you were stuck, requires a slashing weapon. The text is quite clear and quite exact. It tells you exactly what happens and what you can do to avoid some of the effects. There is no need - and no justification that I can see - to do anything apart from follow the text given, as given.
catsclaw 06-11-07, 06:04 PM	Why would they have rules for scraping off the goo if it didn't accomplish anything? You've taken X amount of time and removed enough of the goo that you are no longer affected.The rules clearly say you can only scrap off the goo if you're immobilized. And it does have an effect -- you're no longer immobilized and can move at half speed.A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed.Since the rules are pretty clear that you can only break free if you're glued to the floor, it doesn't make sense that you'd have a way to remove the entangled condition if you failed your save, but not if you succeeded. Thus, you must not be able to remove the entangled condition at all, just the "stuck to the ground" condition.I'd also agree with the judge on the fireball. So we consider the goo to have DR 1,000,000/slashing. Magic ignores DR.The problem with that reasoning, of course, is if they had meant DR 100/slashing, they could have said DR 100/slashing. At best it's a grey area.
mlund 06-11-07, 06:54 PM	Entangled: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. Nothing in the Reflex Saving Throw or the ability to scrape off goo eliminates the Entangled condition. Only the expiration of the duration or application of the solvent removes the Entangled condition. As noted, being stuck to the ground constitutes more than mere entanglement. The wolf could, at best, become unstuck from the ground. It could not in any way eliminate its Entangled state until the goo's duration runs out. - Marty Lund
copper_wyrmling 06-11-07, 08:49 PM	I think the item is ridiculously overpowered for a nonmagical 50gp item - there should be a way to remove the entangled condition, but from what I can see, there isn't. (My dervish got tanglefooted by forest giants in the last game he played. He needs a ring of freedom of movement: getting your 70ft move speed cut down to 15ft by heavy undergrowth + entangle with no save is really annoying.)
MatteBlack 06-11-07, 10:44 PM	I think the item is ridiculously overpowered for a nonmagical 50gp item - there should be a way to remove the entangled condition, but from what I can see, there isn't. (My dervish got tanglefooted by forest giants in the last game he played. He needs a ring of freedom of movement: getting your 70ft move speed cut down to 15ft by heavy undergrowth + entangle with no save is really annoying.) There are ways to get free Freedom of Movement, Universal Solvent, Enlarge(to huge), waiting. It's only half movement and some penaties not, a complete takeout. I'll admit that it's very powerful but, not worth a DM blowing off the rules for.
Dr.Cornelius 06-12-07, 02:45 AM	...the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor... Does the -4 Dex from entangle take effect before or after the DC15 Reflex save?
_metz_ 06-12-07, 03:11 AM	Beforehand. (Its prior to being hit)
ezreal2001 06-12-07, 09:12 AM	Does the -4 Dex from entangle take effect before or after the DC15 Reflex save? You know I've ever thought of that one - but I'd say that applying the -4 after the save would save alot of angst at the table.
Mattastrophic 06-12-07, 09:41 AM	Well, this one could go either way, but if you look at the structure of the sentence... "An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor..." All the "effects" of being entangled apply at once, thus the Reflex save occurs at the same time as the Dex penalty, thus the Dex penalty is not in place at the time the target needs to make the save, thus the target is not penalized on the save. As for dealing with Tanglefoot Bags being used on you... -Miss chances. Even Entropic Shield grants a 20%. -High Touch AC. Expertise, Dodge, Ring of Protection, Dusty Rose Prism, etc. -Teleportation. Even Benign Transposition gets you out. -Freedom of Movement. Might get some table variation on this one. With Divine Ward in play, this one's really easy to use now. -Universal Solvent. Isn't this thing Open access now? -Matt
Cardinal Teplin 06-12-07, 10:00 AM	Why would teleportation help defeat the entangle effect? There is no reason to assume the goo would be left behind... I'd allow a prestidigitation to remove the goo though. Not to stop someone being stuck to the floor, but certainly to remove the entangle.
Mattastrophic 06-12-07, 10:17 AM	Why would teleportation help defeat the entangle effect? There is no reason to assume the goo would be left behind... It's not an ongoing magical effect, thus the goo doesn't have to come along with you. If you cast DimDoor while submerged in a pool of water, you don't automatically find yourself surrounded by a 5' cube of water when you land, correct? Same with teleporting out of a Tanglefoot Bag. Of course, if you wanted to bring the Tanglefoot Bag with you, that's entirely your choice. -Matt
KarmaInferno 06-12-07, 11:25 AM	Actually, I'd find that quite humorous, and as a judge might include it. It most likely would have no game effect, aside from getting the floor wet, and it's good for a laugh. <sploosh> Seriously, though, while it can be argued that there isn't that cube of water, you would almost certainly still be wet after the teleport. And anything clinging to you should similarly go with you. Although... the idea of being able to teleport out of your clothing is also amusing. -karma
Mattastrophic 06-12-07, 03:14 PM	Although... the idea of being able to teleport out of your clothing is also amusing. Actually, at least with Dimension Door, you can do that. "You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load." (emphasis mine) This implies that you have a choice in the matter of exactly what comes along. Thus, if you have a choice, you can choose to not bring along, say, that gooey crap that's stuck to your legs. -Matt
Dr.Cornelius 06-13-07, 05:31 AM	While we are on the subject of Tanglefoot Bags - here is a neat combo that shuts down spellcasters: 1) Tie a copper piece to a Tanglefoot Bag with 1ft of string. (Remember - the bag comes apart when deployed. The copper piece is to reduce table variation.) 2) Have your Cleric cast Silence on the copper piece. 3) Drop the Tanglefoot on an enemy spellcaster - with any luck he will have a difficult time getting out of the Silence.
ezreal2001 06-13-07, 06:07 AM	Actually, at least with Dimension Door, you can do that. "You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load." (emphasis mine) This implies that you have a choice in the matter of exactly what comes along. Thus, if you have a choice, you can choose to not bring along, say, that gooey crap that's stuck to your legs. -Matt You should to see alot of expect table variation on that one.
Madfox11 06-13-07, 08:32 AM	While we are on the subject of Tanglefoot Bags - here is a neat combo that shuts down spellcasters: 1) Tie a copper piece to a Tanglefoot Bag with 1ft of string. (Remember - the bag comes apart when deployed. The copper piece is to reduce table variation.) 2) Have your Cleric cast Silence on the copper piece. 3) Drop the Tanglefoot on an enemy spellcaster - with any luck he will have a difficult time getting out of the Silence. Not more so than when you cast it on any other object and drop it next to the caster glued to the floor. Allies can grab it and run away, or cover it (it is an emanation after all)*, or allow the victim to grab it and throw it away. You might consider a check is in order, but there is no rule in the books that tell so, and if you use an already iffy spell in an iffy way I would fully accept the DM to stick to the RAW. * A nasty DM might simply decide the object is completely covered by glue and stops working until the glue shatters.
Cardinal Teplin 06-13-07, 09:04 AM	Just put your hat over the copper peice. Emanation blocked, problem solved. Every character should have a hat - they're very useful.
copper_wyrmling 06-13-07, 09:11 AM	Just put your hat over the copper peice. Emanation blocked, problem solved. Every character should have a hat - they're very useful. A towel would also work, of course. (And I should go reread Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, it's been too long.) I think it's a little sad that using fourth and fifth-level spells to escape the effects of a mundane 50gp item experiences table variation. I agree that it's ambiguous, and wouldn't argue a GM's ruling either way (well, for ddoor / teleport at least, I really think Freedom of Movement must work) - I do think that's another indication that the item is a bit too powerful for its price and nonmagical nature, though.
Cardinal Teplin 06-13-07, 09:18 AM	Or a familiar. They're bright, and typically have many ranks in spellcraft so they know how a silence works. Having your pet rat body tackle the copper peice seems both sensible and in character...
thorinXXX 06-13-07, 02:44 PM	A towel would also work, of course. (And I should go reread Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, it's been too long.) I think it's a little sad that using fourth and fifth-level spells to escape the effects of a mundane 50gp item experiences table variation. I agree that it's ambiguous, and wouldn't argue a GM's ruling either way (well, for ddoor / teleport at least, I really think Freedom of Movement must work) - I do think that's another indication that the item is a bit too powerful for its price and nonmagical nature, though. TF bags are good, but not broken. They do absolutely nothing to huge or larger creatures for instance. They only affect one target. They take an action to draw, and a standard action to use, which could simply be used to kill the target.
Dr.Cornelius 06-13-07, 03:36 PM	Not more so than when you cast it on any other object and drop it next to the caster glued to the floor.Casting Silence on an object attached to the Tanglefoot Bag saves an action. Allies can grab it and run away, or cover it (it is an emanation after all)*, or allow the victim to grab it and throw it away. You might consider a check is in order, but there is no rule in the books that tell so... How do the bad guys know that the silence is specifically on the copper piece? At a minimum this should require a Spellcraft roll. A nasty DM might simply decide the object is completely covered by glue and stops working until the glue shatters.True. A DM could also allow Silence to be cast on the Tanglefoot itself and continue to work after the bag "comes apart" and eminate from the glue patch. This is another case where the player should approach the DM prior to the start of the mod and get a ruling to avoid confusion later. I think this case is a creative, useful combo and not a cheesy rules exploit but others may have a different opinion. Your primary issue seems to be that Silence is trivial to counter. Do you find Silence to be useful, at least at low to mid APL?
Dr.Cornelius 06-13-07, 03:53 PM	TF bags are good, but not broken. They do absolutely nothing to huge or larger creatures for instance. They only affect one target. They take an action to draw, and a standard action to use, which could simply be used to kill the target.Some months ago I played a regional mod that featured flying creatures w/ strong ranged attacks in difficult terrain and other negative conditions that hindered spellcasting. Suffice it to say that this is a very tricky and lethal encounter. Later when I spoke with the mod writer he indicated that the encounter was specifically designed to be resistant to a number of approaches but that the playtest table had defeated the flying baddies with Tangefoot Bags, and his assumption was that every party would be packing, even as low as APL 4. The moral of the story is that writers make assumptions about party capabilities and that most parties should have a few Tanglefoots on hand, along with many other things in the toolkit.
Madfox11 06-14-07, 04:41 AM	Your primary issue seems to be that Silence is trivial to counter. Do you find Silence to be useful, at least at low to mid APL? That was not was I was arguing about. It is a good spell, sometimes too good. I was merely pointing out that the silence/tanglefoot bag combo was nice, but not particular strong. The only time I really think silence is too strong is when people use it with a ready action to automatically counterspell opponents. Otherwise most problems with the spell arise from DMs/players not fully understanding the limitations.
Timlagor 06-14-07, 11:28 AM	Have you not seen the Invisible Flying Familiar of Silence? (who can move over the caster each round and ready to follow them if they move too ..it is a two-PC combo since very few PCs can provide both spells and the Familiar but extremely potent)
Dr.Cornelius 06-14-07, 12:26 PM	Have you not seen the Invisible Flying Familiar of Silence? (who can move over the caster each round and ready to follow them if they move too ..it is a two-PC combo since very few PCs can provide both spells and the Familiar but extremely potent)Nice combo. Interestingly, this is a trick the Mystic Theurge can pull off solo.
thorinXXX 06-14-07, 12:52 PM	Some months ago I played a regional mod that featured flying creatures w/ strong ranged attacks in difficult terrain and other negative conditions that hindered spellcasting. Suffice it to say that this is a very tricky and lethal encounter. Later when I spoke with the mod writer he indicated that the encounter was specifically designed to be resistant to a number of approaches but that the playtest table had defeated the flying baddies with Tangefoot Bags, and his assumption was that every party would be packing, even as low as APL 4. The moral of the story is that writers make assumptions about party capabilities and that most parties should have a few Tanglefoots on hand, along with many other things in the toolkit. I think that the mod writer was correct. Everybody should carry a TF bag. It is right up there on the adventures' gear list with potion of CLW, alchemist fire, and masterwork weapon. On the other hand I don't think I would ever write a scenario that essentially required them.
Madfox11 06-15-07, 04:48 AM	Have you not seen the Invisible Flying Familiar of Silence? (who can move over the caster each round and ready to follow them if they move too ..it is a two-PC combo since very few PCs can provide both spells and the Familiar but extremely potent) Of course, the moment you use the familiar in such a way it suddenly becomes a valid target on the DM's radar which is always a risky thing with familiars. And just as with using PCs for a similar tactic, it becomes dangerous when you suddenly need to heal/buff/de-curse that familiar ;) But this is not a discussion about the ups- and downsides of silence or other spells that are a bit on the powerful side for their level.
Timlagor 06-15-07, 09:40 AM	I have no objection to Gms targetting my familiar -I've used him to deliberately provoke AoOs before now! You have to pick your targets but familiars can be very useful in combat with relatively low risk if you spare a Mage Armour for them and pick your targets. They are also generally not enough of a threat to actually merit attacks once they have delivered their nasty touch spell. (it definitely focussed our attention when we spellcrafted an enemy casting a save-or-become-goo spell for his famiiliar to deliver though! ..but we didn't tanglefoot it)
Cardinal Teplin 06-15-07, 06:33 PM	I have no problem with people targeting my familiar - he's a lot tougher than my wizard is.