Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gm_dug 02-09-07, 09:14 PM	Hi First I will apologize, as I may not be able to keep up with this discussion (I am taking a bunch od boy scouts winter camping first thing in the morning, and wont be back until sometime sunday) Hopfuly I am just misreading, but under "Experience Penalties" on pg 14 of the LGCS it says: "Multiclass experience penalties are limited to 50%; if you would normally lose more than 50%, you instead lose 50%." The way I am reading this, then if the PHB says you would normally take more than a 50% hit on XP, then you would only take a 50% XP hit. For instance, a halfling Ftr 5 Wiz 1 would by the PHB take a 80% xp hit. (20% for each level of more than 1 level between the Wiz and Ftr.) Does this character only take a 50% xp hit? Or is the intention that the player not be allowed to put the character in that position? Doug
Mithreinmaethor 02-09-07, 11:14 PM	Hi First I will apologize, as I may not be able to keep up with this discussion (I am taking a bunch od boy scouts winter camping first thing in the morning, and wont be back until sometime sunday) Hopfuly I am just misreading, but under "Experience Penalties" on pg 14 of the LGCS it says: "Multiclass experience penalties are limited to 50%; if you would normally lose more than 50%, you instead lose 50%." The way I am reading this, then if the PHB says you would normally take more than a 50% hit on XP, then you would only take a 50% XP hit. For instance, a halfling Ftr 5 Wiz 1 would by the PHB take a 80% xp hit. (20% for each level of more than 1 level between the Wiz and Ftr.) Does this character only take a 50% xp hit? Or is the intention that the player not be allowed to put the character in that position? Doug Your math is a little off here. A Fighter 5 / Wizard 1 would only have a 60% penalty. A Fighter 2 / Wizard 1 has no penalties so ever Fighter level above that is +20% penalty. And after reading Page 12 (says 14 on the page counter but is marked as page 12) the above combo would mean you are taking a 50% Exp and Gold hit everytime you play this character. You can of course lower this by taking more levels in wizard. Or hopefully be a Half-Elf, Human, Dwarf or Elf so that one of those 2 classes doesnt count towards the penalty.
JamesMaissen 02-09-07, 11:18 PM	Your math is a little off here. A Fighter 5 / Wizard 1 would only have a 60% penalty. A Fighter 2 / Wizard 1 has no penalties so ever Fighter level above that is +20% penalty. And both of your rules are a bit off.. it's 20% per CLASS not per LEVEL. The case you mention of FTR5/WIZ1 (assuming no favored classes) would give a 20% penalty. The core rule is a bit silly imho and an artifact of not adjusting to 3rd ed's multiclassing as a design your own class concept, but it seems we need to live with it. -James
Mithreinmaethor 02-09-07, 11:20 PM	Yes sorry forgot about that. Nothing here to see, move along
Tarlyn Alurach 02-10-07, 05:54 PM	I would actually love to see this applied not only to the base classes but to PRCs as well. Bring some kind of balance back to the game.
Mithreinmaethor 02-10-07, 06:19 PM	I would actually love to see this applied not only to the base classes but to PRCs as well. Bring some kind of balance back to the game. Unfortunately the Core rules state that PRC's dont count for this. But I get your point
Tarlyn Alurach 02-10-07, 06:30 PM	Seriously, who needs to have 3 core classes (Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian) and three PRCs? And be 10th level. I'm all about character concept, but just to do it JUST so you can do it, is ridiculous. Especially those spiked chain using cheese monkeys. I enjoy the ROLE playing aspect, but it's kind of hard to enjoy a game when the gouda ape keeps saying: Are we're fighting yet? Why aren't we fighting yet? Get to the fight!
myshkingfh 02-10-07, 06:39 PM	How about you make your character and I make mine?
Tarlyn Alurach 02-10-07, 06:59 PM	That sounds like a good idea, but when your character ruins the table and chases other players and DMs away, you need to seriously reconsider what you are doing. And yes, I'm speaking from experience.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 07:22 PM	That sounds like a good idea, but when your character ruins the table and chases other players and DMs away, you need to seriously reconsider what you are doing. And yes, I'm speaking from experience. Except that you are confusing "character build" with "player". 1) Not all such builds (even limitting it to the "cheesy" ones) have characters who think like that. 2) Not all players ruin games (even with characters who basically like hitting things -some of them can be extremely entertaining to play with). You have an issue with a certain type of player and no amount of rules restrictions will make them play any more to your liking [though it might be possible to drive them away altogether ...probably about the time you kill the whole campaign]
Tarlyn Alurach 02-10-07, 07:50 PM	It's not just the player that we have issues with. Our group will be dealing with that later. It's the fact that I've seen this all too much. Last con I went to, we had a spiked chain fighter/barbarian/ranger combo at just about every table. Only one guy wasn't a cheese monkey with it. I'm just using that as an example. I've seen worse. I just can't see why anyone needs that many core classes. And I can't see why people need more than two PRCs.
myshkingfh 02-10-07, 08:16 PM	Maybe you're just too easily upset by things.
jstorrie 02-10-07, 08:35 PM	The 'spiked chain weasel' is just as effective if he's just Fighter/Barbarian, or even straight Fighter. I think you're a) making a mountain of a molehill and b) not really understanding the rules. The Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger with three prestige classes is not significantly more powerful. The main problem with spiked chains is spiked chains.
Tarlyn Alurach 02-10-07, 08:50 PM	You'd be wrong on both counts. I've been gaming since 1E. I don't mind multi-classing. But what I'm seeing more ROLL playing than I do ROLE playing. I'm just seeing a lot of one trick ponies and that does take the fun out of the game. And yes, I've been yelled by one trick ponies because I don't min/max. So far I haven't heard a valid argument for multiclassing that much.
DroidTrooper 02-12-07, 08:11 PM	The best reasoning for leaving the rules alone is probably this: Every rule you change add/errata/delete is a rule that a well informed (potential min/maxer) person can take advantage of and manipulate. Whereas a less well informed individual is more likely to be totally oblivious to it and be frustrated by it when he encounters it unexpectedly. ………………………………………………………. I believe you would likely find that the classes are not balanced even when you look at straight Fighter10 or Cleric10 or Ranger10 etc. Much less limiting players to fewer selections does not correct the problem of min/max character being more powerful than non min/max characters. The reason min/max characters are more potent is that they, generally speaking, take better advantage of rules then people who do not focus on the using rules to their advantage. This is not a specific problem to D&D. This is more noticeable in Living Grayhawk is bound more closely to the rules (as written) then a casual home play adventure (where the GM can better manipulate things to manually balance the adventure for a given party). As far as players being dissatisfied with other players at the table this is a symptom of LG as well. By having a system where it is easier for less well acquainted group of people to adventure together, the people don't know each other as well. Thus is more common for someone to be less than happy with the actions taken because they were unexpected and the reasoning behind them is unknown. ………………………………………………………….. The argument for multiclassing that much: I am Thor, I wish to become the bestest most strongest warrior in the world. I shall walk the path that makes the me the bestest most strongest warrior where ever that path shall be. To find the path to be the greatest warrior of all why must examine many roads. He could try learning at a monastery for a while, combine that with the back woods lore he learned while searching out the monastery, combined with the early fighter training the government required of him to defend his homeland in his first years that first sparked the idea that he could be the greatest warrior ever. ………………………………………………………. Some of the multiclassed characters have very developed stories behind them. Some probably do an excellent job of including the plots of the actually Mods they have played into their story lines. Just like that Rng1/Bar1/Fgt2/Monk2 etc who yelled at you, does know the reasons why you made such foolish decisions in a given 4 hour adventure where you and he happened to be together, you probably don't know the reasons why he took such a round about route to develop his character.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-12-07, 08:22 PM	It's not just the player that we have issues with. Our group will be dealing with that later. It's the fact that I've seen this all too much. Last con I went to, we had a spiked chain fighter/barbarian/ranger combo at just about every table. Only one guy wasn't a cheese monkey with it. I'm just using that as an example. I've seen worse. I just can't see why anyone needs that many core classes. And I can't see why people need more than two PRCs. I guess my Ranger/FIghter/Barbarian/Warmage/Wildrunner/Dragon Disciple makes you cry then?
amnuxoll 02-12-07, 09:46 PM	I guess my Ranger/FIghter/Barbarian/Warmage/Wildrunner/Dragon Disciple makes you cry then? Have we already forgotten about my barbarian/sorcerer/fighter/ranger/scout/order of the bow initiate/occult slayer (with pending levels in four more classes...)? ;) Admittedly, I'm just being silly with that PC but I think multiclassing is one of the *fun* things about D&D3. As long as it remains balanced (and it usually does) it's fun. :AMN:
clannagh 02-12-07, 11:46 PM	if people want to rort the system they will ... for example .. given a couple of free or half price raises .. level up .. retrain arrange to die free raise .. lose a level level up retrain again arrange to die free raise .. lose a level continue until cheap raise deads run out
Grantor 02-13-07, 02:36 PM	Actually, according to the rules, it is EASIER to mix lots of classes than it is to mix just two or three. With six classes at level one or two each, there is no experience penalty. If the class levels are kept even, you can multiclass your way to 20th level and not be behind the straight wizard. It's the Wood Elf Fighter that adds one more class, like Barbarian 1, that starts to run into trouble. Or the halfling Paladin with a level of Fighter. However, this is balanced by introducing higher powered abilities at higher levels. If you multiclass like crazy, you don't get high-level powers. Well, that's the theory. But Fighter, Barbarian and a few classes are all front-loaded, where you get benefits at early levels that are the same "power" as those at later levels. (For instance, more rages per day for the barbarian as he goes up. Not useful in LG where there is normally no more than two encounters per day). What I wonder about: will D&D 4th edition be MORE class-based, back pedaling on the freedom to create your own character with PrCs and multiple base classes, or will it be more open, with extremely basic base classes and MORE feat-trees, more lists of abilities to choose from as you reach each level and more ability to fine-tune your character to your vision of a fantasy archetype?
Grantor 02-13-07, 02:39 PM	if people want to rort the system they will ... for example .. given a couple of free or half price raises .. level up .. retrain arrange to die free raise .. lose a level level up retrain again arrange to die free raise .. lose a level continue until cheap raise deads run out The new LGCS does not allow class level retraining, just class abilites, skill points and feats. Class levels are still fixed. (Well, technically, you can die, die, die and then pick three different levels as you regain your xp, but that is about as fast as starting a new character.)
Timlagor 02-13-07, 02:48 PM	Chaning a Class is "Rebuilding" rather than "Retraining".
DuctShuiTengu 02-14-07, 10:46 AM	Seriously, who needs to have 3 core classes (Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian) and three PRCs? And be 10th level. I'm all about character concept, but just to do it JUST so you can do it, is ridiculous. Especially those spiked chain using cheese monkeys. I enjoy the ROLE playing aspect, but it's kind of hard to enjoy a game when the gouda ape keeps saying: Are we're fighting yet? Why aren't we fighting yet? Get to the fight! That sounds like a good idea, but when your character ruins the table and chases other players and DMs away, you need to seriously reconsider what you are doing. And yes, I'm speaking from experience. It's not just the player that we have issues with. Our group will be dealing with that later. It's the fact that I've seen this all too much. Last con I went to, we had a spiked chain fighter/barbarian/ranger combo at just about every table. Only one guy wasn't a cheese monkey with it. I'm just using that as an example. I've seen worse. I just can't see why anyone needs that many core classes. And I can't see why people need more than two PRCs. You'd be wrong on both counts. I've been gaming since 1E. I don't mind multi-classing. But what I'm seeing more ROLL playing than I do ROLE playing. I'm just seeing a lot of one trick ponies and that does take the fun out of the game. And yes, I've been yelled by one trick ponies because I don't min/max. So far I haven't heard a valid argument for multiclassing that much. Stormwind Fallacy (http://boards-test-dev.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9165883). Read it, know it, link it. Or, to clarify that a bit more... There is no in-game mechanic (number of classes, spellcasting, damage-dealing, etc) that turns the player into a "gouda ape." There is no in-game mechanic that "ruins the table" or "chases other players and DMs away" (though some players or DMs may leave because of stupid assumptions about the player based on their character). If "the gouda ape keeps saying: Are we're fighting yet? Why aren't we fighting yet? Get to the fight!" that's because they're a bad player, not because their character is multiclassed. Their character sheet didn't cast touch of idiocy on them when they added that last class.
KarmaInferno 02-14-07, 03:54 PM	I'd note that you see Spiked Chains a lot because they are better optimized for their role than other weapons, regardless of how much the players roll-play or role-play. It's an odd consequence of group mentality. The larger a number of available choices, the LESS you are likely to see major variation in what gets chosen. If you give a group of people a large number of choices to pick something from for a task, and they are well informed about each of the choices and their capacities, they will by far and wide pick the most optimized choice for the task rather than a wider variety of choices. A larger number of choices merely allows a closer match to the task requirements, not a wider variety of approaches to the task. Game design dictates that in situations where you want to provide a large number of choices, you must ALSO arrange some limiters, some means of forcing diversity in choice. (unless you are happy with folks always picking the same thing.) D&D has some limiters that result in variation, so there's a fair degree of variety in characters. But there are still optimized combinations of choices that are clearly superior than other builds for a given role, so you will inevitably see those combos a lot. You cannot blame the players for this phenomena, really. Any time you have a large base of people this kind of thing will happen. It's inevitable. Complaining to the players will not alter the situation as a whole - only changing the parameters and rules of choice can do that. So, as long as chain fighters are a very effective combat choice, you will see them pop up again and again. -karma
clannagh 02-14-07, 05:19 PM	several comments - if you do not like a persons playing style do not play with him, do not GM for him, do not play in games he runs - the more you role play the more likely you are to multiclass as things happen in mods that move your character away from its original destiny - spiked chains are common because they are versatile which makes them probably the optimal fighter weapon. Good fighters that are useful can be tricky to build so a weapon that makes that task easier will be popular. I honestly can't understand this whole "fighters are nerfed except for chain fighters who are cheesy nonsense". - having used spiked chains a bit I can honestly say the critics actually have no idea. Its a feat heavy weapon that cannot possibly achieve all of its potential in 15 levels. The whole trip issue is a problem with improved trip NOT the weapon itself. You virtually never hit anything on the inside 5' so that only is a benefit when enlarged. The actual real benefits of a chain (like being a DH finess weapon that power attacks !!! .. instant dex to double damage convertor) are never actually mentioned just superficial stuff that stands out to the uniniated but really does not matter much. - a lot of the apparently valid chain criticisms are because people have got the rules wrong .. intervening allies give cover, you actually cant trip someone as they stand up etc etc etc - the game is not supposed to be PvP world of warcraft style. If i get a Radiant Cheesweasel or Shocktrooping Deepwarden or chainfighter or well built druid on my table I think "great". I certianly do not sit there muttering "cheesy bastards are stealing my chance to bignote myself and do impressive damage".
solbergb 02-14-07, 05:42 PM	of course you can only power attack with 13 str, so the "finesse" thing is mostly wasted. Very few characters have both finesse and power attack, and of those that do, the diff between dex and str is usually pretty small. The main mechanical advantages are: 1. exotic weapon master class (exotic flurry and the funny around the corner AOO reach thing work) 2. it's both a tripping weapon and a disarm bonus weapon. No martial reach weapon does both. 3. hit close range stuff when enlarged. Its main mechanical disadvantages are 1. piercing damage type means it can't sunder anything unless the Judge is feeling nice to you, and its "flavor" means it is probably the only piercing weapon that is also half damage underwater. DR/Piercing is also extremely rare. 2. It costs a feat to use, while only giving 2d4 damage. All of the other exotic reach weapons do 1d12 or 2d6 barring weird things like mancatcher. 3. It looks totally stupid :)
clannagh 02-14-07, 08:10 PM	of course you can only power attack with 13 str, so the "finesse" thing is mostly wasted. Very few characters have both finesse and power attack, and of those that do, the diff between dex and str is usually pretty small. The main mechanical advantages are: 1. exotic weapon master class (exotic flurry and the funny around the corner AOO reach thing work) 2. it's both a tripping weapon and a disarm bonus weapon. No martial reach weapon does both. 3. hit close range stuff when enlarged. Its main mechanical disadvantages are 1. piercing damage type means it can't sunder anything unless the Judge is feeling nice to you, and its "flavor" means it is probably the only piercing weapon that is also half damage underwater. DR/Piercing is also extremely rare. 2. It costs a feat to use, while only giving 2d4 damage. All of the other exotic reach weapons do 1d12 or 2d6 barring weird things like mancatcher. 3. It looks totally stupid :) This thread is getting a wee bit off topic :) Good chain fighters cannot multiclass much because they need lots of feats. Strength 13 Dex 18+ is not that unusual especially among wood elves. Otherwise I agree on most of that .. - EWM flurry is good (though not specifically a feature of just spiked chains) - the combination of trip and disarm in the same weapon is good (PROVIDING you are prepared to invest the four feats to get there .. EWF, combat expertise, imp trip, imp disarm. Note that a chain fighter is likely to also want combat reflexes and possibly power attack or finesse .. chain fighters are a feat heavy build and can never do everything) - the hit everything in 20' when enlarged is a massive advantage .. but interestingly the "chain whiners" seem to miss this point and not mention it. disadvantages .. - no shield - chew up feats - piercing only - rare on AR's and yes .. aside from the chain weilding manga schoolgirl out of Kill Bill .. most representations of chain fighters are pretty silly. I would also say the only thing sillier than a chain underwater is a sling underwater :)
haferka 02-14-07, 08:59 PM	I would actually love to see this applied not only to the base classes but to PRCs as well. Bring some kind of balance back to the game. I will refrain from calling you ..... and simply accept that you are ignorant of the reason this will not work. Prestige classes can be anywhere from 1-10 levels. Prestige classe require the player to take aprox 3-10 levels of base classes to gain access. Many prestige classes require characters to multiclass base classes first. Now, lets look at the facts with some examples... seems to me.. if you counted prestige classes towards multiclass xp penalties.. MOST of them would REQUIRE an XP penalty. In fact the player that sticks with a single "non-favored" base class to level 6 before taking a single prestige class level would have a %100 XP penalty where as a player that takes a single level in 6 base classes before taking a prestige class level would have a %0 penalty.
Timlagor 02-14-07, 09:29 PM	you should look up the rules on xp penalties. It's only the number of mismatched classes that matters; how far apart they are has no bearing whatsoever.
haferka 02-14-07, 10:04 PM	oops, I claim ignorance. lets look at a some examples with your suggestion: Dwarf Fighter 6/Exotic Weapon Master 3 : By your rule the only way to avoid gaining an xp penalty with this character is to take more Fighter. Halfling Wizard 3/Druid 3 : If this character picks up Arcane Heirophant or any other prestige class, he takes an xp penalty.
DuctShuiTengu 02-15-07, 12:22 AM	- a lot of the apparently valid chain criticisms are because people have got the rules wrong .. intervening allies give cover, you actually cant trip someone as they stand up etc etc etc Silly rules-thing: you actually can trip someone as they stand up per a literal reading of the RAW, because there's nothing in the rules on being prone that prevents you from being tripped while prone. However, doing so is (barring bits of extreme silliness) completely pointless. Your AoO/Readied attack goes off prior to them standing, leaving them no more prone than they were before, then they just get up, same as they would have if you hadn't retripped them.
jstorrie 02-15-07, 01:19 PM	oops, I claim ignorance. lets look at a some examples with your suggestion: Dwarf Fighter 6/Exotic Weapon Master 3 : By your rule the only way to avoid gaining an xp penalty with this character is to take more Fighter. Halfling Wizard 3/Druid 3 : If this character picks up Arcane Heirophant or any other prestige class, he takes an xp penalty. No, these are not correct; prestige classes do not count for the purposes of determining XP penalties. To avoid xp penalties, the dwarf could take levels of whatever she likes, because fighter is a favoured class; the halfling could take levels of a prestige class, or levels of rogue (her favoured class) but not levels of a non-favoured based class, like fighter or cleric.
Crazy Boro 02-15-07, 01:51 PM	No, these are not correct; prestige classes do not count for the purposes of determining XP penalties. To avoid xp penalties, the dwarf could take levels of whatever she likes, because fighter is a favoured class; the halfling could take levels of a prestige class, or levels of rogue (her favoured class) but not levels of a non-favoured based class, like fighter or cleric. They were doing a scenario if Tarlyn Alurach's suggestion of counting prestige classes for XP penalties was to happen. Show them why counting PRC's for it would be bad.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-15-07, 10:42 PM	What I wonder about: will D&D 4th edition be MORE class-based, back pedaling on the freedom to create your own character with PrCs and multiple base classes, or will it be more open, with extremely basic base classes and MORE feat-trees, more lists of abilities to choose from as you reach each level and more ability to fine-tune your character to your vision of a fantasy archetype? 4th edition? :twitch: We're not speculating on that already, are we? It's at least 4-5 years away, right? Please?
clannagh 02-15-07, 10:56 PM	4th edition? :twitch: We're not speculating on that already, are we? It's at least 4-5 years away, right? Please? there is speculation everywhere .. some people predicting as early as 2008 but that seems just rumour mongering here is an interesting link from way back in 2001 ..... http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010401a
LGMoses 02-15-07, 11:24 PM	Silly rules-thing: you actually can trip someone as they stand up per a literal reading of the RAW, because there's nothing in the rules on being prone that prevents you from being tripped while prone. However, doing so is (barring bits of extreme silliness) completely pointless. Your AoO/Readied attack goes off prior to them standing, leaving them no more prone than they were before, then they just get up, same as they would have if you hadn't retripped them. you could just ready an action to trip them once they are fully on there feet. I wonder if somewhere there is an entire gaming group of chain fighters?
cycloptic_squirrel 02-15-07, 11:26 PM	there is speculation everywhere .. some people predicting as early as 2008 but that seems just rumour mongering here is an interesting link from way back in 2001 ..... http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010401a Reads like an April fool's joke. Even if true, I could live with 2011. Not sure I'd feel the same 3 years from now, but I guess it's going to happen at some point,
LGMoses 02-16-07, 12:08 AM	We need to add some mysticism to 4th eds release. Someone make some grim prophecies concerning what will happen with the coming of 4th ed.
clannagh 02-16-07, 12:15 AM	Reads like an April fool's joke. Even if true, I could live with 2011. Not sure I'd feel the same 3 years from now, but I guess it's going to happen at some point, ummh .. I think the reference to the D30 system suggests it was not serious :)
MatteBlack 02-16-07, 12:24 AM	I think the D20 system is pretty strong overall. There should at least be a D&D3.8 or whatever that reintegrates newer rules in to the games strong core. Give me an editorial pass on how all the non-core stuff works together and is balanced and the game should be good for awhile. There are probably alot of classes, feats, spells and other rules that are so similar that they could be removed for redundancy sake and streamline the rule set alot.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-16-07, 02:43 AM	We need to add some mysticism to 4th eds release. Someone make some grim prophecies concerning what will happen with the coming of 4th ed. In 4th edition D&D Every character is a dwarf fighter named Rolf Rule mandated noogies Spiked chain will stay since it's now cannon, but the new popular cheeze-monkey tool will be something that can best be described as 'a large pair of scissors' Due to rule irregularities, a brick consistantly deals more damage than a shortbow. Goblin is a core PC race, dwarf is not. Complete new pantheon with exciting new gods like Tim: god of breakfast cereals overdue library books New sense of drama and excitement brought about by comprehensive critical hit tables Added third dimension to refined alignment system: pessimistic vs. optimistic, good vs. misunderstood, and chaotic vs. even more chaotic. Sample adventure ends in three ways: Councilman Wither's proposal to raise personal income tax by 1.3% succeeds unanimously, the proposal succeeds, but only after several amendments including a controversial credit given for voluntary fire squad service, and the proposal never makes it out of the subcommittee due to a procedural inconsistancy that couldn't be resolved. Magic is now spelled majic Shotguns are standard issue for ogre magi Sorcerers come in 'flavors', an inovation that is claimed to be important, but doesn't really do much of anything Druids are alergic to metal, a teamate wearing metal armor for an extended period results in penalties. New DMG gives scientific explainations behind most game aspects, including derivations of the more important equations. The four weakest creatures in the new Opponent Index (renamed monster manual) listed in increasing difficulty are: llamma, animated can of beans, orcish orthodontist, wyvern No horses, just small mopeds A paladin gets a harley, but requires premium gasoline The barbarian's spells are more powerful than the cleric's Rouge is a prestige class Combat rules are reworked to allow them to run 'real time' To level your character, just buy a booster pack of randomly assorted upgrade cards (+3 hit points, gain a spell level, +1/3 attack bonus) available from any fine hobby store If your FE (fantasy entitity, new term for character) dies, it rises again the next night as evil intentioned dust mote Personality types have benifits/drawbacks and associated rules; 'hippie', 'used car salesman', and 'you think you're a sentient pumpkin' are amonst the most powerful Celebrity designers Adventuring equipment supplimental rules fold out into waterproof toga Choices of familiar are limited to an imaginary friend or a talking stick of beef jerky (the YOU ARE GOD guide suggests that if the players are good you could expand this list to include lawn mowers, small rocks, and phychopathic imps who are both very stabby and very prone to confusing friend and foe) Fresh fruit is now considered a monk-like weapon The enchantment of any magic weapon requires the soul of a baby duckling Corn is one of the more popular materials in armor composition. Tables include maximum volume of liquid imbibed, stereo upgrades, and carrying capacity of many large objects (barrel, wagon, beltpouch) measured in units of 'halfling' Instead of schools spells are now classified by their liquor component All demons are nothing more than broken VCRs gifted with intellegence Saves are made with a modifier for player hair length Bards use improves other people's abilities by demonstration of impeccable table manners No one has any arms. OK, I better stop before things get silly.;) So that is the horror of fourth edition. Let us pray it never comes. (Although it might be kinda interesting to try out once or twice.)
LGMoses 02-19-07, 03:58 AM	when 4th edition comes. All of those $30.00 chunks of paper you bought will corner you in a room, laugh at you, and spontaneously combust and slowly burn to ash rite in front of your eyes...:eek: