Natural Ability [Archive] - Wizards Community

Natural Ability [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jokem
05-22-06, 04:28 PM How is the caster level determined for natural abilities?

Can a 12th level Paladin lay on hands to cure lycanthropy?

The spells are cast at 1/2 level, so the same Paladin casting cure
moderate wounds on undead with SR has a level of 6 for that purpose, but
what if he used lay on hands to cure wounds?
kenobi65
05-22-06, 04:49 PM How is the caster level determined for natural abilities?

Typically by total hit dice, for a true "natural ability."

Can a 12th level Paladin lay on hands to cure lycanthropy?

No, it wouldn't work. Laying on hands only cures HP damage, and that's not what it takes to cure lycanthropy. As per the SRD...

Curing Lycanthropy
An afflicted character who eats a sprig of belladonna (also called wolfsbane) within 1 hour of a lycanthrope’s attack can attempt a DC 20 Fortitude save to shake off the affliction. If a healer administers the herb, use the character’s save bonus or the healer’s Heal modifier, whichever is higher. The character gets only one chance, no matter how much belladonna is consumed. The belladonna must be reasonably fresh (picked within the last week).
However, fresh or not, belladonna is toxic. The character must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Strength damage. One minute later, the character must succeed on a second DC 13 save or take an additional 2d6 points of Strength damage.
A remove disease or heal spell cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher also cures the affliction, provided the character receives the spell within three days of the lycanthrope’s attack.
The only other way to remove the affliction is to cast remove curse or break enchantment on the character during one of the three days of the full moon. After receiving the spell, the character must succeed on a DC 20 Will save to break the curse (the caster knows if the spell works). If the save fails, the process must be repeated.

So, from a spellcasting standpoint, there are two options:
- remove disease or heal, cast by a 12th+ level cleric, within 3 days (and note that we're talking about the actual spell heal, not just curing HP damage).
- remove curse or break enchantment, cast during the full moon.

Now, paladins can also do remove disease, as a spell-like ability (note that this is not the same as laying on hands, which only cures HP damage). Whether they'd be able to use that ability to remove lycanthropy is a good question...the text of the curse says that only "clerics" can remove the curse; whether or not other divine spellcasters (such as paladins, favored souls, etc.) can do it is not clear, but by the letter of the rule, I'd say "no." This may be one of those "expect table variation" situations.
jokem
05-23-06, 04:27 PM Typically by total hit dice, for a true "natural ability."

No, it wouldn't work. Laying on hands only cures HP damage, and that's not what it takes to cure lycanthropy. As per the SRD...

So, from a spellcasting standpoint, there are two options:
- remove disease or heal, cast by a 12th+ level cleric, within 3 days (and note that we're talking about the actual spell heal, not just curing HP damage).
- remove curse or break enchantment, cast during the full moon.

Now, paladins can also do remove disease, as a spell-like ability (note that this is not the same as laying on hands, which only cures HP damage). Whether they'd be able to use that ability to remove lycanthropy is a good question...the text of the curse says that only "clerics" can remove the curse; whether or not other divine spellcasters (such as paladins, favored souls, etc.) can do it is not clear, but by the letter of the rule, I'd say "no." This may be one of those "expect table variation" situations.

Sorry, I still find myself slipping into the original game where 'laying on hands'
applied to Paladin cure disease as well as cure HP. But you have captured
the essence of my question.

So a level 12 Druid cannot Cure Lycanthropy? This needs to be addressed by
RPGA as it can get complicated. If a Remove Disease scroll is prepared by
a level 12 Druid (with the level jacked up to 12 also) it cannot be used to
Cure Lycanthropy? Unless used by a level 12 Cleric? How about a staff of
Curing? Only a 12th level Cleric can use it to Cure Lycanthropy? Or any
12 level character can do this if the staff was created by a level 12 Druid?
And lets not even get into it about potions...
Arvagor
05-23-06, 05:05 PM So a level 12 Druid cannot Cure Lycanthropy?By a strict reading of the rules, no, they cannot. Not necessarily unprecedented, as a druid can't cast the other spells to cure lycanthropy either (namely remove curse or break enchantment).

The LGCS also seems to affirm this: "If the player cannot have the curse removed in the adventure and it is within three days of contracting lycanthropy, a remove disease or heal spell cast by a 12th-level priest will remove it." (page 44) I know of no one (in game terms) who would interpret "priest" as possibly being a druid...
kenobi65
05-23-06, 10:01 PM So a level 12 Druid cannot Cure Lycanthropy? This needs to be addressed by
RPGA as it can get complicated.

Sorry, but it's not an RPGA issue...it's a D&D rules issue. With very few exceptions (polymorph being the most notable), the RPGA, or its campaigns, don't rewrite the game rules...they either use them, or they don't.

Unless the D&D FAQ addresses this issue, it's unlikely that LG would ever modify the rules on this on their own.
jokem
05-24-06, 02:31 PM Sorry, but it's not an RPGA issue...it's a D&D rules issue. With very few exceptions (polymorph being the most notable), the RPGA, or its campaigns, don't rewrite the game rules...they either use them, or they don't.

Unless the D&D FAQ addresses this issue, it's unlikely that LG would ever modify the rules on this on their own.

So a potion created by a 12 level priest, with an effective level of 12 is not
the same as the spell cast by that very same cleric? Hmm, OK. I do not
see where this is addressed in the rules, but OK.
kenobi65
05-24-06, 05:08 PM So a potion created by a 12 level priest, with an effective level of 12 is not
the same as the spell cast by that very same cleric? Hmm, OK. I do not
see where this is addressed in the rules, but OK.

Because the rule on lycanthropy, in the Monster Manual, calls for a spell, cast by a cleric of a particular level. Could you interpret that it might allow for a potion made by a cleric of that level? Possibly...but now you're in a gray area within the D&D rules...and those gray areas are things that the LG staff, as a rule, doesn't make campaign-specific rules on. They say, "The D&D FAQ is a rules source." So, unless the D&D FAQ addresses your question, it's still going to be a gray area.
jokem
05-26-06, 02:53 PM Because the rule on lycanthropy, in the Monster Manual, calls for a spell, cast by a cleric of a particular level. Could you interpret that it might allow for a potion made by a cleric of that level? Possibly...but now you're in a gray area within the D&D rules...and those gray areas are things that the LG staff, as a rule, doesn't make campaign-specific rules on. They say, "The D&D FAQ is a rules source." So, unless the D&D FAQ addresses your question, it's still going to be a gray area.

This is why I say it needs to be addressed.
kenobi65
05-26-06, 05:59 PM This is why I say it needs to be addressed.

That's fine. But talking on the LG boards isn't the way to address it...because, again, it's not an issue with the LG rules...it's an issue with the D&D rules. The LG staff does not make rulings on ambiguous D&D rules.

Write to WotC, ask the question on the WotC Knowledge Base, and hope that a clarification shows up in the D&D FAQ or something like that. That's the only way to address it.
jokem
05-31-06, 05:29 PM That's fine. But talking on the LG boards isn't the way to address it...because, again, it's not an issue with the LG rules...it's an issue with the D&D rules. The LG staff does not make rulings on ambiguous D&D rules.

Write to WotC, ask the question on the WotC Knowledge Base, and hope that a clarification shows up in the D&D FAQ or something like that. That's the only way to address it.

OK thanks. If I get confused trying to find it I might be back here asking for a link...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jokem 05-22-06, 04:28 PM	How is the caster level determined for natural abilities? Can a 12th level Paladin lay on hands to cure lycanthropy? The spells are cast at 1/2 level, so the same Paladin casting cure moderate wounds on undead with SR has a level of 6 for that purpose, but what if he used lay on hands to cure wounds?
kenobi65 05-22-06, 04:49 PM	How is the caster level determined for natural abilities? Typically by total hit dice, for a true "natural ability." Can a 12th level Paladin lay on hands to cure lycanthropy? No, it wouldn't work. Laying on hands only cures HP damage, and that's not what it takes to cure lycanthropy. As per the SRD... Curing Lycanthropy An afflicted character who eats a sprig of belladonna (also called wolfsbane) within 1 hour of a lycanthrope’s attack can attempt a DC 20 Fortitude save to shake off the affliction. If a healer administers the herb, use the character’s save bonus or the healer’s Heal modifier, whichever is higher. The character gets only one chance, no matter how much belladonna is consumed. The belladonna must be reasonably fresh (picked within the last week). However, fresh or not, belladonna is toxic. The character must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Strength damage. One minute later, the character must succeed on a second DC 13 save or take an additional 2d6 points of Strength damage. A remove disease or heal spell cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher also cures the affliction, provided the character receives the spell within three days of the lycanthrope’s attack. The only other way to remove the affliction is to cast remove curse or break enchantment on the character during one of the three days of the full moon. After receiving the spell, the character must succeed on a DC 20 Will save to break the curse (the caster knows if the spell works). If the save fails, the process must be repeated. So, from a spellcasting standpoint, there are two options: - remove disease or heal, cast by a 12th+ level cleric, within 3 days (and note that we're talking about the actual spell heal, not just curing HP damage). - remove curse or break enchantment, cast during the full moon. Now, paladins can also do remove disease, as a spell-like ability (note that this is not the same as laying on hands, which only cures HP damage). Whether they'd be able to use that ability to remove lycanthropy is a good question...the text of the curse says that only "clerics" can remove the curse; whether or not other divine spellcasters (such as paladins, favored souls, etc.) can do it is not clear, but by the letter of the rule, I'd say "no." This may be one of those "expect table variation" situations.
jokem 05-23-06, 04:27 PM	Typically by total hit dice, for a true "natural ability." No, it wouldn't work. Laying on hands only cures HP damage, and that's not what it takes to cure lycanthropy. As per the SRD... So, from a spellcasting standpoint, there are two options: - remove disease or heal, cast by a 12th+ level cleric, within 3 days (and note that we're talking about the actual spell heal, not just curing HP damage). - remove curse or break enchantment, cast during the full moon. Now, paladins can also do remove disease, as a spell-like ability (note that this is not the same as laying on hands, which only cures HP damage). Whether they'd be able to use that ability to remove lycanthropy is a good question...the text of the curse says that only "clerics" can remove the curse; whether or not other divine spellcasters (such as paladins, favored souls, etc.) can do it is not clear, but by the letter of the rule, I'd say "no." This may be one of those "expect table variation" situations. Sorry, I still find myself slipping into the original game where 'laying on hands' applied to Paladin cure disease as well as cure HP. But you have captured the essence of my question. So a level 12 Druid cannot Cure Lycanthropy? This needs to be addressed by RPGA as it can get complicated. If a Remove Disease scroll is prepared by a level 12 Druid (with the level jacked up to 12 also) it cannot be used to Cure Lycanthropy? Unless used by a level 12 Cleric? How about a staff of Curing? Only a 12th level Cleric can use it to Cure Lycanthropy? Or any 12 level character can do this if the staff was created by a level 12 Druid? And lets not even get into it about potions...
Arvagor 05-23-06, 05:05 PM	So a level 12 Druid cannot Cure Lycanthropy?By a strict reading of the rules, no, they cannot. Not necessarily unprecedented, as a druid can't cast the other spells to cure lycanthropy either (namely remove curse or break enchantment). The LGCS also seems to affirm this: "If the player cannot have the curse removed in the adventure and it is within three days of contracting lycanthropy, a remove disease or heal spell cast by a 12th-level priest will remove it." (page 44) I know of no one (in game terms) who would interpret "priest" as possibly being a druid...
kenobi65 05-23-06, 10:01 PM	So a level 12 Druid cannot Cure Lycanthropy? This needs to be addressed by RPGA as it can get complicated. Sorry, but it's not an RPGA issue...it's a D&D rules issue. With very few exceptions (polymorph being the most notable), the RPGA, or its campaigns, don't rewrite the game rules...they either use them, or they don't. Unless the D&D FAQ addresses this issue, it's unlikely that LG would ever modify the rules on this on their own.
jokem 05-24-06, 02:31 PM	Sorry, but it's not an RPGA issue...it's a D&D rules issue. With very few exceptions (polymorph being the most notable), the RPGA, or its campaigns, don't rewrite the game rules...they either use them, or they don't. Unless the D&D FAQ addresses this issue, it's unlikely that LG would ever modify the rules on this on their own. So a potion created by a 12 level priest, with an effective level of 12 is not the same as the spell cast by that very same cleric? Hmm, OK. I do not see where this is addressed in the rules, but OK.
kenobi65 05-24-06, 05:08 PM	So a potion created by a 12 level priest, with an effective level of 12 is not the same as the spell cast by that very same cleric? Hmm, OK. I do not see where this is addressed in the rules, but OK. Because the rule on lycanthropy, in the Monster Manual, calls for a spell, cast by a cleric of a particular level. Could you interpret that it might allow for a potion made by a cleric of that level? Possibly...but now you're in a gray area within the D&D rules...and those gray areas are things that the LG staff, as a rule, doesn't make campaign-specific rules on. They say, "The D&D FAQ is a rules source." So, unless the D&D FAQ addresses your question, it's still going to be a gray area.
jokem 05-26-06, 02:53 PM	Because the rule on lycanthropy, in the Monster Manual, calls for a spell, cast by a cleric of a particular level. Could you interpret that it might allow for a potion made by a cleric of that level? Possibly...but now you're in a gray area within the D&D rules...and those gray areas are things that the LG staff, as a rule, doesn't make campaign-specific rules on. They say, "The D&D FAQ is a rules source." So, unless the D&D FAQ addresses your question, it's still going to be a gray area. This is why I say it needs to be addressed.
kenobi65 05-26-06, 05:59 PM	This is why I say it needs to be addressed. That's fine. But talking on the LG boards isn't the way to address it...because, again, it's not an issue with the LG rules...it's an issue with the D&D rules. The LG staff does not make rulings on ambiguous D&D rules. Write to WotC, ask the question on the WotC Knowledge Base, and hope that a clarification shows up in the D&D FAQ or something like that. That's the only way to address it.
jokem 05-31-06, 05:29 PM	That's fine. But talking on the LG boards isn't the way to address it...because, again, it's not an issue with the LG rules...it's an issue with the D&D rules. The LG staff does not make rulings on ambiguous D&D rules. Write to WotC, ask the question on the WotC Knowledge Base, and hope that a clarification shows up in the D&D FAQ or something like that. That's the only way to address it. OK thanks. If I get confused trying to find it I might be back here asking for a link...