| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Lupo02-17-06, 02:52 PM | ok, with the new phb and mm errata it is similar to donning an animal costume and making strange noises ;-), just less effective :-( a druid practically gains NOTHING for wildshaping, albeit looses effects of magic items, even those that are allowed for animal meld into the new form and stop to function. yea wildshaping druids were quite powerfull, but the new nerfing is going a little bit to far, wildshape into a fish and then choke, for not getting the breathe underwater ability, wildshape into a dire bat and not getting blindsense and so on. really no fun ;-( ciao martin m. ps: yes, i play a druid, but one who rarely wildshapes anyway. what a luck not to have one of those builts around this ability :-) |
| redgamer02-17-06, 03:55 PM | Does that mean a druid can turn into a fish on the land now? |
| Maesto02-18-06, 02:54 AM | The magic items hurt a bit, but you never got the special qualities to start with - for example, you never got a direbat's blindsense. Also, you never gained the type or subtype of the thing you changed into, so you never gained the aquatic subtype, and thus didn't get the waterbreathing quality of a fish or shark, so no loss there. HOWEVER, you no longer get the racial skill bonuses, or racial bonus feats of the form you change into. And sometimes, that will hurt (e.g., wolf for track feat, eagle for +8 to spot). |
| Saracen02-18-06, 02:59 AM | Maesto, Um, you are actually dead wrong here. You did change Type and Subtype under the old Poly/Wild Shape chain. It is only now that you don't. You are absolutely correct that you do not gain SQ extraordinary abilities... unless you hit 7th level Master of Many Forms. Bryan Blumklotz Player of both a Wizard and Master of Many Forms. |
| Madfox1102-18-06, 04:08 AM | Just to let you know, they still seem to be updating the errata. As of a couple of hours ago, you DO gain the aquatic subtype, so you will not suffocate. The main impact the lack of type change has, is that many buffing spells do not work anymore on the druid, but to be honest, I always got a feeling they were too powerful, especially since you could share 1 spell with 2 creatures. Of course, on higher levels it comes a bit weird since there is little reason to wildshape into plants or elementals except for disguise reasons. |
| Maesto02-18-06, 05:53 AM | Polymorph/Alter self No, you never get the type/subtype from these spells. Polymorph is based on Alter Self, which says (in the PHB): Page 197, column 3, under the paragraph that says "You do not gain any supernatural special..." etc. It says: "Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form." Wildshape used to be based upon polymorph, so you never got the animal or plant or elemental type. Further, when using polymorph etc, you never get the type or subtype. I think shapechange will give it to you, but shapechange is a silly spell. Jolyon |
| Mad Monkey02-18-06, 06:58 AM | This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. Emphasis mine. The spell explicitly says that your type changes. So with the old wildshape rules you could buff yourself and your animal companion with the same animal related spells by sharing it with your companion. In LG animals can only wear an amulet or cloak (and barding, but that's not the issue here), under the old rules a druid wildshaping would only keep items in those slots at my table. The rest would become non-functional. With the new rules druids lose the effect of their periapt of wisdom while in wildshape and thus lose their extra spells. I can imagine that would hurt for a druid. :) |
| Maesto02-18-06, 09:06 AM | Point to you =) I always hated how to do wildshape you'd look up wildshape, then polymorph, then alter self =S I always thought an animal wearing a cloak was a bit strange, but the amulet slot seemed fine to me. I know a number of druids who are going to be annoyed with the loss of will saves, DCs, and spells because they're in animal form. I think that druids should keep their amulets functional and have everything else meld (except what they are carrying in their hands). Anyway, that's just my 2 c. |
| sintarin02-18-06, 10:41 AM | At the moment i have the feeling druids can just be thrown in the trashbin. With just our normal hitpoints (and no con amulet since that slot will be gone or used for wisdom which we need for spells) we will have less hitpoints then wizards (and that's even not counting false life) cause they all craft +6 con amulets. We can't even buff ourselves anymore since we don't become animals (unless we keep ourselves tied to our animal companions). I understand that they wanted to tone down polymorph but this way they basicaly removed the class identifying ability of the druid all together. In normal form my AC is ALOT higher and all my items work (including stuff like rings fo counterspelling and all). Wildshaping for combat = suicide. And since my character was known for walking around in wildshape all the time they essentially removed everybit of roleplaying with him (that is, if i don't wanna be the dire bear hiding behind the wizards). So i'm just praying for atleast the new con for hitpoints otherwise i got a lvl 14 druid who is probably gonna retire from the campaign immediately. So thx wotc for obliterating the core class named druid, i guess that will learn us not to make an overpowered divined powered quicken metamagicked cleric. To bad we don't seem to understand that only clerics (and wizards) are viable casters. Well luckily they are theaching us now ;( |
| jmweber902-18-06, 06:07 PM | I cannot believe that WotC has done this to the druid class, I really can't. Much of the "alternate form" changes make sense- not beneficial, obviously- but they can be argued intelligently. However, this is an ability defined in the Monster Manual- it is not meant for use with PCs. The limitations are too constricting. The monsters with the Alternate Form ability already have several advantages over a PC of the same ECL and thus must be more constricted or be completely unbalanced. I imagine that is the reason for the term in the first place rather than simply utilizing the Alter Self/ Polymorph which was already available. The stripping of the increased hit points from an increased Con (or the losing of them for a creature with a low Con) is simply unwarranted, unsupported by the Primary Source for PC (the PHB) and completely wrong. To say that you get all the benefits of the adjusted physical stats except the Con bonus hit points is ridiculous, at the least. Is it that way for the raging barbarian, or the character with an Amulet of Health or even the wolverine when he rages? Why single out the shapechanger? If he receives the benefit of increased or decreased physical stats you must go all the way. Using this (il)logic one could argue that he gets the increased weight allowance from the strength boost but not the extra attack and damage rolls. Or that the boost to Dex helps in AC and Ref saves, but not to Dex-based skill checks or Initiative rolls. It makes no sense. The PHB states (pp 146) that an increase in constitution, even a temporary one, grants additional hit points. Since wild shape is a class ability with a duration lasting 1 hour per day per druid level, there can be no arguing that it is a temporary increase. So what's the rationale here? Is the Almighty Druid taking over the campaign? Stealing the thunder of the spiked-chain-wielding fighter? Or the Quickened Spellcasters? The druid has smaller hit dice than fighters or barbarian, fewer healing spells than clerics, fewer flashy evocation spells than the wizard and is designed to only truly excel in outdoor settings. They receive an animal companion and the ability to wild shape. For most druids, the wild shape ability allows them to merely back up the fighter or serve as a scout for the party. It is also a wonderful vehicle for role-playing. Without the ability to retain a stat-bump item or save-bump item worn around the neck, the usefulness of the class ability is almost completely nullified. One could argue that the regaining of lost hit points at each change is a boon, however, if the druid uses a periapt of wisdom (which most divine spellcasters of any class do at mid to high levels) the granted additional spells per day are lost at the first change of form since the item melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. The slots may return when the original form is resumed but they are empty and they must be refilled. Wild shaping 3 or 4 times per day means re-memorizing spells just that often. Ludicrous. Where it really gets messy is for players with levels in classes like the master of many forms or nature's warrior where these prestige class levels stack with druid levels for wild shaping purposes. Specifically it is hardest on the master of many forms. This build completely foregoes additional spellcasting ability of any kind and grants a wider variety of wild shape possibilities for the character. The slow BAB and d8 hit dice are identical the the druid's yet he is designed more for melee combat than any other druid build. The true benfits of this build are the physical changes: the increased strength vastly improves attack and damage rolls, the dexterity improves the unusually low armor class (for those not fortunate enough to have access to the Wild armor enhancement) and the temporary bonus to hit points gained from a higher constitution score. Taking that away leaves a character who can go in and fight toe to toe with the big uglies out there and deal appropriate damage but taking more hits due to no allowable armor or magic item functionality and the inability to absorb that inevitable damage due to the sub-par hit points. Many characters are built speficially for this party niche- the shifter. They set up the character with average physical stats planning on the abilities gained from the wild shape class ability. They raise their wisdom scores so that they can get every bit of those limited spell slots and they survive for 5 levels before they're even able to take advantage of that ability. Surviving 5+ levels with strength, dexterity and constitution scores of around 12 can really be difficult for druids but they are paying their dues knowing that at higher levels it will pay off for them. Obviously I am very opinionated on this subject. I have a lot at stake. I play a 15th level druid/ master of many forms/ nature's warrior. Bran's role is strictly as a damage soak, scout most of the time yet he also uses his abilities to find ways around the impossble. Every form he takes has certain advantages and disadvantages. There are definite trade offs. Anyone who thinks the ability is overpowered has never considered the down sides. For instance, larger shapes have much lower dexterity scores (affecting reflex saves, initiative rolls and AC) and usually much lower ACs that offset the extra reach and strength bonuses. Some forms have insane grapple checks but they are offset but extremely low movement rates (hard to grapple when you can't get to your opponent). The smaller, more agile shapes have significantly lower constitution scores so there is a hit point penalty for shifting into them and one must be very careful around combat. Most forms do not even grant iteritive atatcks but must rely solely on those granted by it's natural attacks. The druid and it's associated wild-shaping PrCs are far from broken- at least in comparison with typical classes of similar level. Many would argue against this last statement when playing with a master of many forms because the ability to assume such a wide range of shapes so often is out of the ordinary in most play settings. However, my character (who's been accused of being broken by more people than I care to count) cannot compete with an adequate fighter of equal level in dealing damage during a combat. I've seen 14th level fighters dealing 70- 100 points of damage in a single attack on a regular basis. Bran is lucky if he can deal 30 or 40 in a full round attack. Hardly comparable. Getting back to myt original popint, taking away the constitution bonus to hit points is akin to taking it away from the barbarian's rage. It's completely unfair and unwarranted. For those of us with 15 levels invested in a character, who have foregone magic items because of the inability to use them in wild shape, who have no ranged or melee weapons because they rely on the natural weapons of their shapes, who have even foregone 10 levels of spellcasting in order to capitalize on the built-in abilities of the wild shape (with it's accompanied checks and balances) it is more than unfair, it's debilitating and callous. I implore the WotC writers to rethink this change to the wild shape ability and find a way to define it that fits within the rules for characters without the ambiguity apparent to the Gordian Knot that is Alter Self/ Polymorph and without the limitations set forth for monsters in the Monster Manual. Please give these arguments their due consideration before making a broad-sweeping change to the rules that can affect uncounted PCs and possibly cripple the druid class beyond playability as a simple spellcaster. Regards, John Weber |
| Maesto02-18-06, 08:48 PM | One thing somebody astutely pointed out - if you gain the aquatic subtype, you gain a swim speed, and if you gain a swim speed, you gain the +8 racial bonus to swim. Otherwise, with the above person all the way for the stupidity of not gaining temporary hit points from the con boost (and a number of other things). Wild armour still works though, afaics. |
| Samwise02-19-06, 10:51 AM | Druids can do a lot more than just wild shape. The last time I looked at their spell list, I saw many powerful spells that can do significantly more damage than a simply change in form. Last weekend I ran a table with 3 druids and 1 cleric that rolled over the adventure, and nobody changed form once. Yes, the wild shape abusive prestige classes will now suffer, along with characters built to take advantage of it. That is inevitable when something like this is corrected. What is missing is that wild shape, like polymorph, has been overpowered for what it can do ever since they were changed for 3E. Break out the AD&D books and compare them. It is long past time when both were cut back to the limited powers they used to be. Such a change will be better for the game as a whole, and I am glad to see it. |
| Mortepierre02-19-06, 11:01 AM | At the moment i have the feeling druids can just be thrown in the trashbin. With just our normal hitpoints (and no con amulet since that slot will be gone or used for wisdom which we need for spells) we will have less hitpoints then wizards (and that's even not counting false life) cause they all craft +6 con amulets. We can't even buff ourselves anymore since we don't become animals (unless we keep ourselves tied to our animal companions). Wildshaping for combat = suicide. And since my character was known for walking around in wildshape all the time they essentially removed everybit of roleplaying with him (that is, if i don't wanna be the dire bear hiding behind the wizards). So i'm just praying for atleast the new con for hitpoints otherwise i got a lvl 14 druid who is probably gonna retire from the campaign immediately. So thx wotc for obliterating the core class named druid, i guess that will learn us not to make an overpowered divined powered quicken metamagicked cleric. To bad we don't seem to understand that only clerics (and wizards) are viable casters. Well luckily they are theaching us now ;( Wow! We all have +6 Con amulets? I wonder where mine has gone. Oh, wait, I know. The 16,000 gp were probably used to buy and transfer spells to my spellbook :rolleyes: I don't recall druids having to pay for the privilege of having access to spells like we do. Neither do I see any "nerf" of the druid's spells (if anything, with the SpC, you're bound to get mightier *cough*binding winds*cough*). You can still wildshape, and now you even regain hit pts when doing so! We - wizards - will probably see Alter Self & Polymorph restricted within a month. I can only imagine what that will do to Transmuter colleagues of mine! You can't use your items when wildshaped? Big deal. The cleric/wizard of the team will be happy to cast a Bear's Endurance on you just before you wildshape. So, you won't be able to walk 24/7 with a ton of hit pts? Since when is it a prerequisite to playing a druid? I don't recall any advertising that druids were supposed to be the group's "tank". You may not have many hit pts compared to, say, the fighter but that still leaves you with way more than what us wizards have. Not to mention you can walk around in armor when we have to waste spells to achieve the same result. I am not saying I rejoice at what happened to your class but don't come here saying wizards have an easy time in comparison, 'cause we don't! |
| jmweber902-19-06, 02:16 PM | I don't think anyone is saying that wizards have it easy- or any other class for that matter. However, when you take away a core-class ability or alter it to be beyond reasonable usability you hurt everyone who's built something around the class. Think about all the mounted combat specialists out there who lost the ride-by-attack/ spirited charge benfits they had set themselves up for. What this rule is doing is singling out one particular class and one particular benefit of using that class ability. The loss of Con bonus hit points strictly goes against the core rules set out in several areas in the PHB. Keep in mind that the rule is now based off of a Monster Manual ability, not a PHB ability or spell. The MM is the primary source for MONSTERS not characters. They operate a little differently and therefore using one of their rules for characters is not going to fit very well. If they were designed for characters to use, then many characters would be taking Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack (especially monks), etc. It just isn't meant to work the same. The wild shape ability is gained only after 5 levels taken as a druid- a core class, not a Prc. Even then it only allows 1 use per day for small and medium animals- that is very limiting. It is only at higher levels (8th for Large creatures and 12th for plants) where things begin to open up a little bit. It is not a broken ability with unlimited daily uses, duration or functionality granted at 1st level. Look also at the limitations on armor that can be worn- padded, leather and hide only, unless you have access to dragonhide. How does that compare with the cleric's use of armor? Does the druid get fireball, lightning bolt, disintegrate or any of those neat necromancy spells you like? No. What about the healing spells of the cleric- not at the same level progression. Their spell list can be quite impressive, but not nearly as much when they're not in a natural setting. Try using entangle in a dungeon. Or maybe plant growth in a cave. What about spike growth or briar web in a castle? All useless. Am I saying they're a weak class? Not at all. However, I ask that you take into account their serious limitations before minimizing the importance of their quite usable and often character-defining abilities. There are a lot of druids out there who do not use their wild shape ability very often. That's great. There are a lot of rogues out there who do not use their sneak attacks or their trapfinding abilities. However, to so limit the usability of an ability that it makes it nearly useless, you are basically taking away RP possibilities as well as combat abilities. Changes like this completely take the legs out from under anyone who has built around this specific ability. It's penalizing the player who saw something he liked in a character option and built around it rather than being a generalist- something which makes his character stand out. For instance, you mentioned your wizard and by the tagline I assume he's a Necromancer specialist. What would happen if LG decided to do restrict all necromancy spells because they didn't fit in with the "hero" plotline they wanted to see? Then they tell you that you can't make up for it in any way- you just lose the ability to cast the spells in your spellbook, could not replace them with other spells and you could not replace your specialty school with another one- you just effectively had 3 prohibited schools and no specialty. It wouldn't be fair, yet people would say that they played with a wizard who dominated a module and never cast one necromancy spell. Or that the necromancy spells were broken anyway since so many don't even allow a saving throw. Then others would tell you that it was unwise to specialize around one school of magic anyway and that getting all the bonus hp from False Life that last all day at higher levels was just broken and deserved to be taken away. I don't think anyone is trying to say that a druid is comparable to either a fighter or a wizard. They are simply saying that they like using their class ability to do more than look cute when prancing through the forest. Being a tank is not a prereq for a druid. That doesn't mean that they can't build their character along those lines, though. especially if they take steps to enter a core-access PrC that lasers in on maximizing this. It's all about personal preference and shouldn't be brow-beaten because of their choices. **************************** Wow! We all have +6 Con amulets? I wonder where mine has gone. Oh, wait, I know. The 16,000 gp were probably used to buy and transfer spells to my spellbook I don't recall druids having to pay for the privilege of having access to spells like we do. Neither do I see any "nerf" of the druid's spells (if anything, with the SpC, you're bound to get mightier *cough*binding winds*cough*). You can still wildshape, and now you even regain hit pts when doing so! We - wizards - will probably see Alter Self & Polymorph restricted within a month. I can only imagine what that will do to Transmuter colleagues of mine! You can't use your items when wildshaped? Big deal. The cleric/wizard of the team will be happy to cast a Bear's Endurance on you just before you wildshape. So, you won't be able to walk 24/7 with a ton of hit pts? Since when is it a prerequisite to playing a druid? I don't recall any advertising that druids were supposed to be the group's "tank". You may not have many hit pts compared to, say, the fighter but that still leaves you with way more than what us wizards have. Not to mention you can walk around in armor when we have to waste spells to achieve the same result. I am not saying I rejoice at what happened to your class but don't come here saying wizards have an easy time in comparison, 'cause we don't! |
| jmweber902-19-06, 02:26 PM | Sorry, my last post was supposed to include this snip as well. BTW, I'd like to know how Alter Self, Polymorph and Wild Shape being limited and/ or banned will make the game as a whole better. Changing shape is not abusive. It merely adds a little more flavor and flash to what would otherwise be just a hack and slash/ fireball gaming world. It opens up tons of RP possibilities and creates an mystique for many characters. Taking it away or making it nearly unusable is not a "correction" but a class stripping. The characters with levels in PrCs that take advantage of the ability give up a lot in order to focus on this one ability; master of many forms is the primary one to look at here and it gives up ALL spell progression in order to focus on shifting. Try taking a 15th level druid/ mmf into an adventure and then tell him he needs to rely solely on his limited 1st-3rd level spells and that he's lost 75% of the benefits to all his most usable wild shapes. He can't survive at APL- even at APL-2. It's just wrong. ********* Druids can do a lot more than just wild shape. The last time I looked at their spell list, I saw many powerful spells that can do significantly more damage than a simply change in form. Last weekend I ran a table with 3 druids and 1 cleric that rolled over the adventure, and nobody changed form once. Yes, the wild shape abusive prestige classes will now suffer, along with characters built to take advantage of it. That is inevitable when something like this is corrected. What is missing is that wild shape, like polymorph, has been overpowered for what it can do ever since they were changed for 3E. Break out the AD&D books and compare them. It is long past time when both were cut back to the limited powers they used to be. Such a change will be better for the game as a whole, and I am glad to see it |
| Samwise02-19-06, 02:53 PM | I don't think anyone is saying that wizards have it easy- or any other class for that matter. However, when you take away a core-class ability or alter it to be beyond reasonable usability you hurt everyone who's built something around the class. It isn't being taken away, and it is still quite useful. The fact that druids can be highly effective without it shows quite clearly that it is not the be-all, end-all ability of the class. Further, any change to anything is going to hurt the characters specifically built around it. That is what happens when a flaw is identified in th rules. Think about all the mounted combat specialists out there who lost the ride-by-attack/ spirited charge benfits they had set themselves up for. What this rule is doing is singling out one particular class and one particular benefit of using that class ability. First, it is not singling out a particular class, it is singling out a specific spell that has been hardwired into multiple class and monster abilities. More importantly, I find it unbelievable that the sole intent and purpose of the wild shape ability is to give druids a super Con and hit point bonus. It has significantly more utility than that. If they were designed for characters to use, then many characters would be taking Improved Natural Armor, Improved Natural Attack (especially monks), etc. It just isn't meant to work the same. I take it you missed where players were complaining about not being able to take those feats. They are indeed designed to be used by anyone with such an attack, they are simply not allowed for players in the LG campaign. The wild shape ability is gained only after 5 levels taken as a druid- a core class, not a Prc. Even then it only allows 1 use per day for small and medium animals- that is very limiting. It is only at higher levels (8th for Large creatures and 12th for plants) where things begin to open up a little bit. It is not a broken ability with unlimited daily uses, duration or functionality granted at 1st level. So I guess druids were thoroughly useless in AD&D. *He gains the ability to shapechange into a reptile, bird, or mammal up to three times per day after he reaches 7th level Each animal form (reptile, bird, or mammal) can be used only once per day. The size can vary from that of a bullfrog or small bird to as large as a black bear. Upon assuming a new form, the druid heals 10 to 60 percent (1d6 x 10%) of all damage he has suffered (round fractions down). The druid can only assume the form of a normal (real world) animal in its normal proportions, but by doing so he takes on all of that creature's characteristics - its movement rate and abilities, its Armor Class, number of attacks, and damage per attack. Thus, a druid could change into a wren to fly across a river, transform into a black bear on the opposite side and attack the orcs gathered there, and finally change into a snake to escape into the bushes before more orcs arrive. The druid's clothing and one item held in each hand also become part of the new body; these reappear when the druid resumes his normal shape. The items cannot be used while the druid is in animal form. - 2nd Edition Player's Handbook (The 1st ed version is functionally the same.) Duration was greater, but available forms was incredibly more limited, (not even dire (giant or primitive) animals were allowed, never mind plants), as was size (diminutive to medium). For instance, you mentioned your wizard and by the tagline I assume he's a Necromancer specialist. What would happen if LG decided to do restrict all necromancy spells because they didn't fit in with the "hero" plotline they wanted to see? Then they tell you that you can't make up for it in any way- you just lose the ability to cast the spells in your spellbook, could not replace them with other spells and you could not replace your specialty school with another one- you just effectively had 3 prohibited schools and no specialty. Except they haven't removed the wild shape ability completely. Nor have they refused to let you continue to wild shape. So your comparison is simply not valid. Now if you were to limit it to something more reasonable, say suggesting that anyone with any of the shapechanging prestige classes be allowed to change them as if the classes were now restricted, along with replacing any wild shape derived feats including natural spell, then I would agree. And not because I think wild shape has been made utterly useless, but because that is how other changes have been handled. (Indeed, I think the rationale for not banning polymorph from LG as well as MoH is weak because of that. Just allow people to replace the spells and related prestige classes, and move on.) |
| Samwise02-19-06, 03:16 PM | BTW, I'd like to know how Alter Self, Polymorph and Wild Shape being limited and/ or banned will make the game as a whole better. Removing, replacing, and revising unbalanced powers and spells always makes the game better. Right now, the game is almost unplayable above 15th level, and as a result characters have to retire at 16th level. Restoring balance to the game might mean we can play until characters have enough xp to reach 21st level. An additional 5 levels of game play seems a whole lot better to me. Changing shape is not abusive. If it were just changing shape it wouldn't be abusive. Since it includes massive stat boosts and ability gains, it is quite abusive. It merely adds a little more flavor and flash to what would otherwise be just a hack and slash/ fireball gaming world. There is "flavor" and "flash" to wandering around looking like a troglodyte most of the time? It seems to me that if people are complaining about losing raw power, then all that is being lost is just another variant on hacking, slashing, and fireballing. It opens up tons of RP possibilities and creates an mystique for many characters. There is a mystique in being mistaken for the party dog on a regular basis? There are RP possiblities in being able to do more damage than a 'tank' build? Taking it away or making it nearly unusable is not a "correction" but a class stripping. The characters with levels in PrCs that take advantage of the ability give up a lot in order to focus on this one ability; master of many forms is the primary one to look at here and it gives up ALL spell progression in order to focus on shifting. Try taking a 15th level druid/ mmf into an adventure and then tell him he needs to rely solely on his limited 1st-3rd level spells and that he's lost 75% of the benefits to all his most usable wild shapes. He can't survive at APL- even at APL-2. It's just wrong. Then restrict master of many forms, and let the druid rebuild his character without those levels. Problem solved. And again there is this assertion that "75% of the benefits" of wild shape is in extra hp from a super-boosted Con, and being able to use a collar, necklace, or other neckgear, and a cloak. And if that druid can't survive at APL 12, or even APL 14, there are more problems with his build than just losing hp and type and such when wild shaping. |
| Mortepierre02-19-06, 03:56 PM | Couldn't have said it any better. Sam, you're my hero :cheer: |
| haferka02-19-06, 05:15 PM | Instead of simply removing the bonus hp from a druids wildshape, I would prefer to see the wild shape duration reduced, and the bonus hp form Con as "temporary hp" (ie just like barbarian rage). As for the melding of items, I dont think items should meld if they are allowed to be worn by the new form. As to the various "forms" that can be used for wildshape, I have no problem with the imposed limitation of creatures from the druid "Summoning" line of spells. Your character would gain access to any form that he can summon with his "summoning" spells. Master of Many forms would recieve access to alternat forms on the clr/wiz "summoning spell list in addition to the druid spells. |
| CSHunt6802-19-06, 06:59 PM | Samwise has it dead right. 'Nuff said. |
| clannagh02-19-06, 09:04 PM | i think its more the combination of the changes that has upset people basically the HP and magic items changes reduce the combat effectiveness of a wild shaped druid to the point where its value versus a human form is being debated at the same time the non combat druids that used wildhsape to become things like a wolf to track with now loose any benefit of the new form meanwhile all the disadvantages like no benefit from armor unless its wild and no ability to speak in most forms remain |
| Objulen02-19-06, 10:05 PM | BTW, I'd like to know how Alter Self, Polymorph and Wild Shape being limited and/ or banned will make the game as a whole better. Changing shape is not abusive. It merely adds a little more flavor and flash to what would otherwise be just a hack and slash/ fireball gaming world. It opens up tons of RP possibilities and creates an mystique for many characters. Taking it away or making it nearly unusable is not a "correction" but a class stripping. The characters with levels in PrCs that take advantage of the ability give up a lot in order to focus on this one ability; master of many forms is the primary one to look at here and it gives up ALL spell progression in order to focus on shifting. Try taking a 15th level druid/ mmf into an adventure and then tell him he needs to rely solely on his limited 1st-3rd level spells and that he's lost 75% of the benefits to all his most usable wild shapes. He can't survive at APL- even at APL-2. It's just wrong. I'm also not seeing how Alter Self or Polymorph are broken in LG, which limits Polymorph spells to one size catagroy above base and to creatures in the MM, which basically fixes the issue right there. I know that both allowed for certain options more powerful than other spells of an equal level with certain forms, but they weren't that powerful, and really only available several levels later, unless you were using all spells of that level for the privelege. Shapechange is very powerful. Then again, so is every other lvl 9 spell. Even if Shapechange is simply too good, I don't see why it can't be altered like Polymorph was to keep in it line with other lvl 9 spells. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-20-06, 04:34 PM | I'm also not seeing how Alter Self or Polymorph are broken in LG, which limits Polymorph spells to one size catagroy above base and to creatures in the MM, which basically fixes the issue right there. I know that both allowed for certain options more powerful than other spells of an equal level with certain forms, but they weren't that powerful, and really only available several levels later, unless you were using all spells of that level for the privelege. The problem is it was "broken" in Mark of Zeroes, which is the campaign setting WotC keeps trying to shove like a pailful of broken glass down our throats. Then again, come the end of this month (or is it next? I forget) MoZ won't have any playable modules available anyways. Sad, really. There are ways they could have really "fixed" polymorph and related abilities (they could have just taken our own restrictions, for instance, and added them in). Instead, they opted to make the most confusing, misleading, worst thought-out errata'ing that I've ever seen. Shame on them. And what's sad is that we, the gamers, are the ones who have to suffer for their base ineptitude. |
| Samwise02-20-06, 05:46 PM | Sad, really. There are ways they could have really "fixed" polymorph and related abilities (they could have just taken our own restrictions, for instance, and added them in). Instead, they opted to make the most confusing, misleading, worst thought-out errata'ing that I've ever seen. Well no, they couldn't have. None of those "fixes" or restrictions fix anything. They are just a bunch of rules-heavy bandaids that tone the spell down in a specific campaign. WotC is supposed to be making the rules functional for everyone who buys the product, not just those playing in Living Greyhawk or other RPGA events. As for the errata, it is only confusing because they presented it in a minimalist fashion, with line by line replacements, instead of a full text replacement of the Alternate Self and Change Shape abilities. Otherwise the errata is very straightforward, and well reasoned, if demonstrating quite well just how interrelated the entire system is. (Thus requiring follow ups to avoid streaking druids, and suffocating fish.) |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-20-06, 05:58 PM | Well no, they couldn't have. None of those "fixes" or restrictions fix anything. They address all of the problems that made it "broken" in people's minds. WotC is supposed to be making the rules functional for everyone who buys the product, not just those playing in Living Greyhawk or other RPGA events. Then they did the worst job of making it functional that I've ever seen. I never saw a problem before they announced this major change. It looks like it was a change made for Mark of Zeroes, a much smaller campaign than we've got. I don't like it in the slightest. You may be a WotC-defender to your dying breath and that's fine, but I think they screwed up and I'm saying so. As for the errata, it is only confusing because they presented it in a minimalist fashion, with line by line replacements, instead of a full text replacement of the Alternate Self and Change Shape abilities. Even if they had, the substance of the changes are stupid. Otherwise the errata is very straightforward, and well reasoned, if demonstrating quite well just how interrelated the entire system is. (Thus requiring follow ups to avoid streaking druids, and suffocating fish.) Well reasoned? I disagree fully. We're still finding problems with it left and right, and they're making changes that have no basis in existing rules. This isn't an errata, it's the result of someone who hates a particular class getting in charge and deciding to take their anger out on something. |
| clannagh02-20-06, 06:11 PM | This isn't an errata, it's the result of someone who hates a particular class getting in charge and deciding to take their anger out on something. It is interesting that the claimed reason for the changes is to fix polymorph but in a number of areas the changes are specifically worse for druids than they are for wizards using polymorph. Even assuming druids actually were overpowered between level 10 and 16 (debatable) ..... a balanced adjustment in that area should have seen a compensating improvement at the weaker lower and higher levels where they are weaker than most other classes. Its also important not to fall into the trap of assuming that certian classes (usually fighters and sorceror/wizards) are meant to be superior by default and that players choosing to be a bard/druid/whatever are choosing a secondary character that is meant to be overall weaker. |
| Lupo02-20-06, 07:19 PM | ok, with the new phb and mm errata it is similar to donning an animal costume and making strange noises ;-), just less effective :-( a druid practically gains NOTHING for wildshaping, albeit looses effects of magic items, even those that are allowed for animal meld into the new form and stop to function. yea wildshaping druids were quite powerfull, but the new nerfing is going a little bit to far, wildshape into a fish and then choke, for not getting the breathe underwater ability, wildshape into a dire bat and not getting blindsense and so on. really no fun ;-( ciao martin m. ps: yes, i play a druid, but one who rarely wildshapes anyway. what a luck not to have one of those builts around this ability :-) after reading all the relevant paragraphs and puzzling together the new text pattern . . . . . ok, it may matter for high level campaign only, but what happens when a druid becomes able to change into elemental form?????????? without special qualities he might suffer some problems. at the moment he would be burnt from own heat in fire elemental form, not able to survive on the elemantal planes and so on . . . . really what a mess on the other hand in fire elemental form he would not suffer terribly from water magic :-) ciao again martin m. |
| Objulen02-20-06, 08:21 PM | It is interesting that the claimed reason for the changes is to fix polymorph but in a number of areas the changes are specifically worse for druids than they are for wizards using polymorph. Even assuming druids actually were overpowered between level 10 and 16 (debatable) ..... a balanced adjustment in that area should have seen a compensating improvement at the weaker lower and higher levels where they are weaker than most other classes. Its also important not to fall into the trap of assuming that certian classes (usually fighters and sorceror/wizards) are meant to be superior by default and that players choosing to be a bard/druid/whatever are choosing a secondary character that is meant to be overall weaker. I'm not willing to say that Wizards hates Druids, but given that the issue was Polymorph, it does seem odd that this resulted in a massive nerf for Wildshape that hit druids and (especially) MoMF's without really touching any issues with Polymorph. It seems to me that it would have made sense to adopt LG rules on the topic. Even if you think it's just a band-aid, it's a better band-aid than what Wizards did. |
| King Kashue02-20-06, 08:37 PM | Here are the two issues I see with the changes: 1. Not having Con change seems foolish to me. Str and Dex change with the new body, because it is either stronger/weaker and more/less agile, but the body doesn't become hardier/frailer? There is no internal logic to the decision. 2. It forces anyone who wants to play a Druid to own the MM. This is the big one. Whatever happened to "all you need to play is a PHB"? This has long been the motto of the game, and that is no longer true. The PHB makes specific reference to an MM ability, and the Druid class cannot be played without access to that book... Bad job WotC... |
| redgamer02-20-06, 08:48 PM | The monster manual is needed to wildshape. It has always been needed to wildshape. Without the monsters manual a druid has nothing to wild shape into. |
| clannagh02-20-06, 08:56 PM | The monster manual is needed to wildshape. It has always been needed to wildshape. Without the monsters manual a druid has nothing to wild shape into. Actually the standard MM monsters are all part of the SRD as is the entire PHB and DMG. Its just not practical in game to refer to the SRD online .. you need a book format for easy rule checking and hence buy the books. For wild shape however it was relatively simple to choose one or two available animal shapes and just print those from the SRD. |
| jmweber902-20-06, 09:14 PM | Removing, replacing, and revising unbalanced powers and spells always makes the game better. Right now, the game is almost unplayable above 15th level, and as a result characters have to retire at 16th level. Restoring balance to the game might mean we can play until characters have enough xp to reach 21st level. An additional 5 levels of game play seems a whole lot better to me. If the game is unplayable above 15th level that's due to poor module writing, not unbalanced spells or abilities. It just takes a little more creativity and imagination. If it were just changing shape it wouldn't be abusive. Since it includes massive stat boosts and ability gains, it is quite abusive. Keep in mind that in most shapes where there is a significant boost to one physical stat there is almost always a significant decrease in another. That's something that i find often overlooked. A nice +4 to you Con helps with your Fort and hp, but the -4 to Dex hurts AC, Ref and initiatives. There is "flavor" and "flash" to wandering around looking like a troglodyte most of the time? It seems to me that if people are complaining about losing raw power, then all that is being lost is just another variant on hacking, slashing, and fireballing. I play a master of many forms and I tell you that I spend fully half of my wild shapes per day on non-combat/ scout forms. For instance, if I walk into a dwarven village I become a dwarf. When I encounter a new creature I might try duplicating it and talking to it, at night when camping I become a plant creature and soak my roots in the soil. I used to be able to do these types of things without a problem. Now, however, If I assume a humanoid/ monstrous humanoid/ giant/ fey creature I lose all equipment regardless and appear naked in fron of them. I alos no longer get the type traits and therefore cannot communicate with others of that kind in their language or gain the natural abilities of that type (except swimming/ water breathing aquatic- whoopee!). THAT is what I meant by flavor and flash. There is a mystique in being mistaken for the party dog on a regular basis? There are RP possiblities in being able to do more damage than a 'tank' build? See above answer. That is also what I mean by mystique. Then restrict master of many forms, and let the druid rebuild his character without those levels. Problem solved. And again there is this assertion that "75% of the benefits" of wild shape is in extra hp from a super-boosted Con, and being able to use a collar, necklace, or other neckgear, and a cloak. And if that druid can't survive at APL 12, or even APL 14, there are more problems with his build than just losing hp and type and such when wild shaping. As I've said, I play a MoMF and as such I only have access to 3rd level spells (none of which have any effective damage dealing capabilities) and I rely solely on the versatility of my shapes to get me through encounters (combat and non-combat). I already have to forego the use of any weapon as most shapes use natural weapons or are imprperly sized to use a medium sized weapon, I forego the use of any stat bump item or save booster other than what can be worn around the neck (ie, no rings, headgear, boots, gloves/ gauntlets, bracers, eyeglasses, vests, etc.) or an Ioun Stone. Take aaway the ability to keep even the cloak or amulet as well as the ability to boost your hp and remove the RP-ability of most of your humanoid/monstrous humanoid/fey/giant/ some aberrations and you're left with much fewer options and a very tough time surviving as the "tank build" you've set yourself up for. I can't think of anyone at 12th level or higher that operates without ANY magic items or weapons and can survive at their APL. BTW, there's nothing wrong with tank builds. It just seems that no one likes it for anyone but a fighter or a barbarian. How well would any of your characters do without their stat-boost items, weapons, armor, body-slot-affinity items at their APL? Do that and anyone has a lot of problems with their build at APL. |
| haferka02-20-06, 09:31 PM | I can't think of anyone at 12th level or higher that operates without ANY magic items or weapons and can survive at their APL. BTW, there's nothing wrong with tank builds. It just seems that no one likes it for anyone but a fighter or a barbarian. How well would any of your characters do without their stat-boost items, weapons, armor, body-slot-affinity items at their APL? Do that and anyone has a lot of problems with their build at APL. Amen brother! If the problem gets any worse, I would suggest that you request a rewrite. Do a Special Mission for Primeval (Frostburn). Join the Bandit Kingdoms region. Come play in the Fellreev forest with the rest of the crazy druids. For those that don't know, Primeval is a Limited prestige class that gives your a "limited" version of Wildshape, this version allows you to pick an 8hd animal (dire, normal or even dino) and wildshape into a hybrid humanoid form. Since its not actually wildshape you go by the specific ability modifiers of the class. I am just hoping that they do NOT @$#@ it up to... (or the Bear warrior). |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-20-06, 09:37 PM | If the game is unplayable above 15th level that's due to poor module writing, not unbalanced spells or abilities. It just takes a little more creativity and imagination. I couldn't agree more. |
| Objulen02-20-06, 09:44 PM | As I've said, I play a MoMF and as such I only have access to 3rd level spells (none of which have any effective damage dealing capabilities) and I rely solely on the versatility of my shapes to get me through encounters (combat and non-combat). I already have to forego the use of any weapon as most shapes use natural weapons or are imprperly sized to use a medium sized weapon, I forego the use of any stat bump item or save booster other than what can be worn around the neck (ie, no rings, headgear, boots, gloves/ gauntlets, bracers, eyeglasses, vests, etc.) or an Ioun Stone. Take aaway the ability to keep even the cloak or amulet as well as the ability to boost your hp and remove the RP-ability of most of your humanoid/monstrous humanoid/fey/giant/ some aberrations and you're left with much fewer options and a very tough time surviving as the "tank build" you've set yourself up for. I can't think of anyone at 12th level or higher that operates without ANY magic items or weapons and can survive at their APL. BTW, there's nothing wrong with tank builds. It just seems that no one likes it for anyone but a fighter or a barbarian. How well would any of your characters do without their stat-boost items, weapons, armor, body-slot-affinity items at their APL? Do that and anyone has a lot of problems with their build at APL. Actually, you keep most/all of your equipment with the following forms: Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Some/Most Outsiders, Some Undead, Some Constructs (edit: note that MoMF can not become outsiders, undead, or constructs; they are included for completeness, since Polymorph Any Object allows these forms). That means all your items are still completely functional. Certain other forms (such as the umber hulks and certain constructs) probably keep certain items, such as amulets and weapons. Given that the MoMF loses most spell casting, this isn't an issue. It's not really an issue for Polymorph either, since most of the forms with better NA, stats, and exceptional attacks and the like are generally inhuman, even cutting of casting, until you reach Polymorph Any Object @ lvl 15 min. Turning into a giant gives you better STR and CON, but if you want a good AC, you have to shell out the gp for it. That doesn't even inlcude the smaller base HD or the poor BAB. |
| Feyd Rautha02-20-06, 11:26 PM | I just want to come out and say that I've played with John's MoMF and he is (was?) effective, but no more so than MANY other PCs in the campaign. If you have a character archetype/build on the list below you shouldn't be talking... A high level cleric with the Good domain A high level monk A spiked chain wielder A Bear Warrior A character with more than three classes (Core+PrC) A character with two or more crafting feats A bard/marshall combo An optimized archer I've judged both John and every single one of the above types as well as played with John and every single one of the above types. If you are on the list above you deserve a core rule change for your class as well. Feyd |
| clannagh02-20-06, 11:35 PM | speaking of monks woould a druid/monk now add wisdom to AC while wild shaped and be able to flurry/stunning fist with natural attacks while shaped ? (edit) I agree on the spiked chains .. i have a spike-chain/combat-relexes/improved-trip/improved-disarm fighter. He gets attacks of opportunity (usually a trip, followed by a free normal attack on the now prone attacker) even when surprised and flat footed against up to three normal normal creatures charging him .. as a gm i would not be happy if my players created teh same character :) The spiked chain also adds 10 to his normal attack role when disarming. |
| Samwise02-21-06, 12:37 AM | If the game is unplayable above 15th level that's due to poor module writing, not unbalanced spells or abilities. It just takes a little more creativity and imagination. And how many adventures have you written for the campaign? Particularly, how many APL 16-20 adventures have you written for the campaign? I hope it is more than none and it was well received by everyone, providing a balanced, enjoyable experience to every single party before you go making such a charge against all the people who have written such for this campaign. Keep in mind that in most shapes where there is a significant boost to one physical stat there is almost always a significant decrease in another. That's something that i find often overlooked. A nice +4 to you Con helps with your Fort and hp, but the -4 to Dex hurts AC, Ref and initiatives. Which pale in comparison to the hit point and damage gains. How many other characters can get so many bonuses to Str, Con, natural armor, multiple natural attacks, and more, with just one ability? I play a master of many forms and I tell you that I spend fully half of my wild shapes per day on non-combat/ scout forms. For instance, if I walk into a dwarven village I become a dwarf. When I encounter a new creature I might try duplicating it and talking to it, at night when camping I become a plant creature and soak my roots in the soil. I used to be able to do these types of things without a problem. Now, however, If I assume a humanoid/ monstrous humanoid/ giant/ fey creature I lose all equipment regardless and appear naked in fron of them. I alos no longer get the type traits and therefore cannot communicate with others of that kind in their language or gain the natural abilities of that type (except swimming/ water breathing aquatic- whoopee!). THAT is what I meant by flavor and flash. Gaining type does not grant you the ability to speak their language. A druid does gain a specific ability to communicate with animals of "the same general grouping" when changed, but that is animals, and is not lost. More as a master of many forms, you gain a special ability to communicate over and above that, which isn't affected or changed by this. As for equipment, that is very easily accomplished either by removing then replacing your clothes, carrying spare clothes, or a simple additional illusion. So exactly what have you lost other than some convenience in getting dressed and undressed repeatedly? As I've said, I play a MoMF and as such I only have access to 3rd level spells (none of which have any effective damage dealing capabilities) and I rely solely on the versatility of my shapes to get me through encounters (combat and non-combat). Which means you don't need a periapt of wisdom and can benefit from an amulet of health. There are some of your hp. Or you can remove and replace an amulet of mighty fists, and gain multiple attack bonuses. I already have to forego the use of any weapon as most shapes use natural weapons or are imprperly sized to use a medium sized weapon, Which means you save money on buying a weapon. I forego the use of any stat bump item or save booster other than what can be worn around the neck (ie, no rings, headgear, boots, gloves/ gauntlets, bracers, eyeglasses, vests, etc.) or an Ioun Stone. Which means you save even more money on items in those slots. Take aaway the ability to keep even the cloak or amulet as well as the ability to boost your hp and remove the RP-ability of most of your humanoid/monstrous humanoid/fey/giant/ some aberrations and you're left with much fewer options and a very tough time surviving as the "tank build" you've set yourself up for. I can't think of anyone at 12th level or higher that operates without ANY magic items or weapons and can survive at their APL. Except you can remove and replace the cloak and the amulet, you can get hp from an amulet of health or a bear's endurance spell, and you can still role-play all you want. BTW, there's nothing wrong with tank builds. It just seems that no one likes it for anyone but a fighter or a barbarian. How well would any of your characters do without their stat-boost items, weapons, armor, body-slot-affinity items at their APL? Do that and anyone has a lot of problems with their build at APL. Well other than the simple fact that a tank build is simply most efficient and effective with a character class that gets multiple feats, and more hp. No matter how much you focus it, be it shapechanging druid, or wizard, or combat cleric, or what not, you will still wind up behind the curve of a fighter or barbarian. And no, you haven't lost all your stat-boost items, weapons, armor, and body-slot-affinity items. You still have your wild shape, and all the other bonuses it gives. |
| King Kashue02-21-06, 12:57 AM | The monster manual is needed to wildshape. It has always been needed to wildshape. Without the monsters manual a druid has nothing to wild shape into. A druid needs the stats from the MM, not specific rules references, there is a difference. With the errata, this is the first core class that specifically references rules from another book in order to function. |
| clannagh02-21-06, 01:06 AM | A druid needs the stats from the MM, not specific rules references, there is a difference. With the errata, this is the first core class that specifically references rules from another book in order to function. i would disagree on that for example wizzies get scribe scroll as a free first level feat but need to refer to the DMG to be able to actually do it |
| King Kashue02-21-06, 01:35 AM | i would disagree on that for example wizzies get scribe scroll as a free first level feat but need to refer to the DMG to be able to actually do it That's a feat, not a class ability, it can be used by multiple classes. And actually, the rules for the feat itself are in the PHB, it is the general rules for scrolls that are in the DMG. A player can use that feat without the DMG handy. S/he may not know how to use the scroll once it's created, but all the mechanics for make it are in the PHB. And obviously the PHB makes reference to the DMG, I'm not saying it doesn't. But this is the first time that another book is necessary for the understanding of the abilities of a core class. |
| Zodar602-21-06, 01:37 AM | Except you can remove and replace the cloak and the amulet, you can get hp from an amulet of health or a bear's endurance spell, and you can still role-play all you want. I'd like to see the group that will wait the extra 2 - 3 rounds in combat for the druid/MoMF to put on his gear which he dropped before wild shaping into a combat form appropiate for the situation - because it won't stay on his body after the shift. Oh wait, the new form doesn't have any hands - could the party wizard/bard/cleric please help me get dressed? Then he can start buffing himself further which will cost another 2 -3 rounds. Oh the fight's already over? Strange how I couldn't contribute - thanks to the new wild shaping rules! Even stranger: The ability assume form now allows the retainment of equipment that is usable by the new form. But wild shaping explicitly still does not - oversight? |
| clannagh02-21-06, 01:44 AM | Even stranger: The ability assume form now allows the retainment of equipment that is usable by the new form. But wild shaping explicitly still does not - oversight? It doesnt seem like an oversight as it was a specific errata change to the druid rules without an errata change to the wizard rules for the spell. I think what is being misunderstood here is the real question is this "why make druids go to all the hastle of dropping gear and re-equiping it while allowing wizards to just transform and automatically keep the gear that fits the new form" |
| Samwise02-21-06, 02:09 AM | I'd like to see the group that will wait the extra 2 - 3 rounds in combat for the druid/MoMF to put on his gear which he dropped before wild shaping into a combat form appropiate for the situation - because it won't stay on his body after the shift. Oh wait, the new form doesn't have any hands - could the party wizard/bard/cleric please help me get dressed? Seeing as how he can keep that form for several hours, I would be rather surprised if he waited until combat to wild shape. So that shouldn't be an issue. Then he can start buffing himself further which will cost another 2 -3 rounds. Of course he would have to do that even under the old rules, so that hardly matters. Oh the fight's already over? Strange how I couldn't contribute - thanks to the new wild shaping rules! That's what I think about several cleric-tank builds that require excessive buffing, even if they are augmented by divine metamagic - quicken. It doesnt seem like an oversight as it was a specific errata change to the druid rules without an errata change to the wizard rules for the spell. I think what is being misunderstood here is the real question is this "why make druids go to all the hastle of dropping gear and re-equiping it while allowing wizards to just transform and automatically keep the gear that fits the new form" On that I agree, it does seem rather peculiar. However, I would approach it from a slightly different angle: 1. Druid Wild Shape is only supposed to allow a change into regular animals, then plants, and elementals. (That is, in the Core rules as opposed to through feats and prestige classes from expansion books.) Further, tt is technically an LG house rule that allows animals to use neck and cloak space items. As such, druids should always be absorbing everything by default. Of course, that still doesn't explain why it needs to be stated separately unless they really don't want them open to any such variations or exemptions. If so, it would be nice if they noted that in the errata as they did with several other errata documents that noted the problem and offered an explanation of why it was being done. 2. The various feats and prestige classes that expand what you can wild shape into assume some variations on the standard wild shape ability by default. If I were to errata it yet again, I would consider putting any exceptions to the absorbtion rule into them, rather than in the default druid ability which shouldn't need it. Together that would keep the core class as intended, and allow any expansion to appear only in expansions, and make it easier to regulate the effects of such expansions. Of course that is a design fix, and isn't something I'd expect to be house ruled into LG, but who knows. |
| King Kashue02-21-06, 02:47 AM | Seeing as how he can keep that form for several hours, I would be rather surprised if he waited until combat to wild shape. So that shouldn't be an issue. You're assuming the use of one form, or at least 1 "combat form", except that's not how most combat druids work, and certainly not how master of many forms works (it's right there in the title)... The flexibility of wild shape in general, and the MoMF in specific is that you can choose a form to fit the situation..."Enemy with DR?" form with big damage attack to plow through DR..."Enemy with lots of hitpoints and a good AC?" maybe a form with multiple attacks to increase chance of hitting..."Physically weak spell caster?" Something with good grapple abilities... You say you'd be surprised if he waited till combat to shift, personally, I'd be surprised if he didn't...I know few if any druids who don't choose form based on the nature of the combat... And there has still been zero explanation of the internal inconsistancy of gaining most physical traits (Str & Dex) but not all (Con)...That decision lacks internal logic... |
| Sieylianna02-21-06, 07:37 AM | Then they did the worst job of making it functional that I've ever seen. I never saw a problem before they announced this major change. It looks like it was a change made for Mark of Zeroes, a much smaller campaign than we've got. I don't like it in the slightest. You may be a WotC-defender to your dying breath and that's fine, but I think they screwed up and I'm saying so. I don't think it's a coincidence that Mark of Heroes is about to level bump to 7th level, which will make polymoprh and wild shape a significant factor in the game. (I'd be surprised if more than 5% of the players in the campaign managed to make 7th through play. I've missed two modules total since the campaign started and am still sixth level - of course, my PC was hosed because they posted my Gen Con slot zeroes and then applied the level bump. Just another example of how the RPGA continuously screws the judges and players that make the campaigns work). Ed |
| Samwise02-21-06, 11:35 AM | You say you'd be surprised if he waited till combat to shift, personally, I'd be surprised if he didn't...I know few if any druids who don't choose form based on the nature of the combat... Well, there you have it. The druids I know that run around wild shaped stay in their chosen form constantly until either talking to people in town, they can't fit their large form, or they need to make an emergency change to a flying form. They don't constantly change form two or three times and encounter. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-21-06, 11:43 AM | Well, there you have it. The druids I know that run around wild shaped stay in their chosen form constantly until either talking to people in town, they can't fit their large form, or they need to make an emergency change to a flying form. They don't constantly change form two or three times and encounter. Then you've never played with a Master of Many Forms, or many Druids at all. They regularly change to fit whatever needs are around. |
| jmweber902-21-06, 12:30 PM | And how many adventures have you written for the campaign? Particularly, how many APL 16-20 adventures have you written for the campaign? I hope it is more than none and it was well received by everyone, providing a balanced, enjoyable experience to every single party before you go making such a charge against all the people who have written such for this campaign. I am not charging anything against anyone. In fact, the high level modules I have played I have found quite enjoyable and challenging. In fact everyone that I've played these high level mods seemed to thoroughly enjoy them- especially the ones with untiered encounters that lure the cocky PCs into unwinnable encounters. However, If I recall correctly, you were the one who said that the game was unplayable at 15th level. I simply suspected that if you had a problem with high level game play it was due to the modules you played- not the game itself. Especially since the game was written and designed for up to 20th level with expansion options for epic level. Which pale in comparison to the hit point and damage gains. How many other characters can get so many bonuses to Str, Con, natural armor, multiple natural attacks, and more, with just one ability? The gains to hp are there to accomodate for all the additional hits you take due to a much lower AC. At 15th level, it is not very practical to walk around with a 19 - 24 AC as a front line fighting build- unless of course you have access to the Wild armor enhancement (and in over 130 modules I have played to date I have not seen access to it once- except through the Tropical Intrigue option). So, to offset this huge decrease in AC, you get the bonus hit points to help absorb the damage you take. Also, don't assume that multiple natural attacks is such a wonderful thing. Most of these attacks are at -5 penalty (just like iteritive attacks) and do a heck of a lot less damage than most weapons- unless of course you receive the form's feats (which you don't) or it's racial bonus feats (oops, those have gone away now as well). As for equipment, that is very easily accomplished either by removing then replacing your clothes, carrying spare clothes, or a simple additional illusion. So exactly what have you lost other than some convenience in getting dressed and undressed repeatedly? Really? So when I shift from a humanoid to a frost giant, all I have to do is slip my clothes back on and they'll fit? Hmm. Guess my shirt and pants have magical abilities I didn't know about. Ah well. I guess having to stop game play while I rummage for something suitable to wear won't upset the flow of the game or minimize the enjoyment level at all. Which means you don't need a periapt of wisdom and can benefit from an amulet of health. There are some of your hp. Or you can remove and replace an amulet of mighty fists, and gain multiple attack bonuses. Nope, unless I stay in a medium size form, that is. Anything else and the item won't fit. The rules clearly state that a magical item will not resize to fit. And, since the PHB errata says contradicts the MM errata on the issue of not melding and resizing, it cannot be done. Which means you save money on buying a weapon. Yep. I have a ton of gold and nothing to spend it on. No access to size large weapons so far. If I want a weapon for my larger sizes I must use an apporpriate non-magical club made through my wood shape or stone shape spells. But then I have to figure out a way to carry it around since it's too large to fit into a handy haversack or bag of holding (type I). Since I can't do it without incurring a penalty to my encumberance or risk losing it completely when I shift into something incapable of carrying/ wielding it, I just have to do without a weapon. I haven't complained about that; it's not a big deal, really. It's part of my character's focus and make-up and I role-play that as part of teh character. Which means you save even more money on items in those slots. Great. I have the money to spend on those slots- but there's no point since they either meld into my new form and become nonfuntional or they're just plain useless unless I choose a form of the appropriate size and body type. If I want a stat boost I can only get it through level bumps or access to the apropriate Ioun Stone (which are hard to come by). If I could keep EITHER the Con hp boost from the form OR the body slot availability I would be happy. But as it stands now, I get neither. Except you can remove and replace the cloak and the amulet, you can get hp from an amulet of health or a bear's endurance spell, and you can still role-play all you want. Again, this only works for a medium sized form with the appropriate body slot. It won't work on giants, aberrations (most), animals (many), oozes, dragons, elementals, vermin, mostrous humanoids (many) or plants. Well other than the simple fact that a tank build is simply most efficient and effective with a character class that gets multiple feats, and more hp. No matter how much you focus it, be it shapechanging druid, or wizard, or combat cleric, or what not, you will still wind up behind the curve of a fighter or barbarian. And no, you haven't lost all your stat-boost items, weapons, armor, and body-slot-affinity items. You still have your wild shape, and all the other bonuses it gives. I am not suggesting that I want to be ahead of the curve- only that I want to be able to use the class-granted benefits as they were written. In fact, I didn't choose the MoMF just for the combat. It's the versatility of the class that I love. And, yes, you do lose your stat boost items (other than Ioun Stones if your new form has a head) and body slot affinity items because they meld into the new form and become non-functional. What is the point in having an item if it becomes nonfunctional most of the time? Most of this I have no problem with- it's what you give up in order to get the benefits of the class ability of improved wild shape. However, if I have to give all that up, it's only fair to get the other benefits to offset this massive sacrifice. Otherwise you're no better off than the typical creature you're emulating. Actually, you're worse off since most of those creatures have better than d8 HD, actually get their Con bonus to hp, and any use their creature-specific set of feats aimed at maximizing their natural abilities. Here's an example. How hard would it be for a pack of demons (pretty common encounter at high APLs) to kill off a stone giant, for example, (a 14 HD creature) when the giant does not have its hide armor bonus (+3 AC), its feats of: Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack and Precise Shot, it's greatclub, it's bag of rocks and without 52 of it's normal 119 hit points? Becuase that's basically what you become when you shift into one. In the old rules, the only real difference would be the +52 hit points and your normal Will saves. Does this really make him overpowered or even comparable to a normal creature of it's type? Obviously not. I think that's why so many people think that this ability is broken. They think you get all those other benefits when you actually don't. They think about the times they've encountered one in a module and what it could do. They don't stop to think about all the things that are missing from that creature when it's accessed through wild shape or improved wild shape. These creatures are already nerfed through the ability. To take away the Con bonus to hp, type traits and racial bonus feats hurts it to the point where it's practically useless in most combats- unless you succumb to finding every little loophole and exploiting every cheesy rule you can get your hands on. And this isn't limited to combat creatres, either. We used to be able to take the form of a hawk or eagle and become the party scout. However, you no longer get the racial skill bonuses either, so you become a hawk with human vision- not very impressive (or effective)- especially so when you consider that those bonuses really just offset the range penalty to Spot due to your height while flying. In fact, now you will actually spot less since the range increment penalty now gives you a lower Spot roll than if you stayed on the ground in your normal form. SO what's the point except to be able to fly across the river or move a little faster than the rest of the party? Now, the role-playing aspect can still be salvaged and worked around, but 10 levels of a role-playing class does not do much in the meat grinders of high APL modules. |
| jmweber902-21-06, 12:37 PM | Then you've never played with a Master of Many Forms, or many Druids at all. They regularly change to fit whatever needs are around. That's absolutely right. In fact, because of the damage we sustain in the fight, we often shift at least twice during an encounter to heal back some hit points. If you get as many as 10 wild shapes a day (which seems like a lot) and you use 2 for role-playing and 2 for traveling/overcoming encounters you're only left with 6 shifts left that day to deal with any combats. This is usually enough, but sometimes it gets pretty tight. Especially in the dungeon crawls where there's no time to rest between encounters. You really have to be selective and frugal in those cases. |
| jmweber902-21-06, 12:44 PM | You're assuming the use of one form, or at least 1 "combat form", except that's not how most combat druids work, and certainly not how master of many forms works (it's right there in the title)... The flexibility of wild shape in general, and the MoMF in specific is that you can choose a form to fit the situation..."Enemy with DR?" form with big damage attack to plow through DR..."Enemy with lots of hitpoints and a good AC?" maybe a form with multiple attacks to increase chance of hitting..."Physically weak spell caster?" Something with good grapple abilities... This is precisely what I mean by the versatility and flexibility of the class that I love. It also works for non-combat situations like scouting, information gathering, tracking, avoiding/vercoming obstacles and situations, role-playing, etc. And there has still been zero explanation of the internal inconsistancy of gaining most physical traits (Str & Dex) but not all (Con)...That decision lacks internal logic... This is what bothers me most, too. It's what makes it seem like it's personally directed at players of druids and MoMF as if they're being seen by WotC as overpowered and unbalanced. |
| Samwise02-21-06, 01:23 PM | I am not charging anything against anyone. In fact, the high level modules I have played I have found quite enjoyable and challenging. In fact everyone that I've played these high level mods seemed to thoroughly enjoy them- especially the ones with untiered encounters that lure the cocky PCs into unwinnable encounters. However, If I recall correctly, you were the one who said that the game was unplayable at 15th level. I simply suspected that if you had a problem with high level game play it was due to the modules you played- not the game itself. Especially since the game was written and designed for up to 20th level with expansion options for epic level. Which doesn't mean that the game is playable at those levels. That's one of the reasons 3.5 was released 2 years before they had planned it. I've run many adventures at APL 14+, and all have had serious balance and challenge issues because of the wide array of abilities available to PCs. When encounters at that level come down to winning initiative or a PC dies, something is wrong with the system that good adventure design can't overcome. The gains to hp are there to accomodate for all the additional hits you take due to a much lower AC. . . .QUOTE] Which should be a sign that the basic build concept is not viable. You are not a barbarian, with d12 HD, and might raging. Indeed, many barbarians have realized just how vulnerable they are going into combat with low AC even with all their hp. [QUOTE]Really? So when I shift from a humanoid to a frost giant, all I have to do is slip my clothes back on and they'll fit? Hmm. Guess my shirt and pants have magical abilities I didn't know about. Ah well. I guess having to stop game play while I rummage for something suitable to wear won't upset the flow of the game or minimize the enjoyment level at all. Since equipment, including clothes, didn't resize before, what is the change? You are still short of clothing, unless you were doing something wrong. And how exactly does "And I change clothes" slow down game play? What is there to rummage for? Nope, unless I stay in a medium size form, that is. Anything else and the item won't fit. The rules clearly state that a magical item will not resize to fit. And, since the PHB errata says contradicts the MM errata on the issue of not melding and resizing, it cannot be done. Then you need to choose between the benefits of a large form or having extra items. That seems quite reasonable to me. Yep. I have a ton of gold and nothing to spend it on. . . . It's part of my character's focus and make-up and I role-play that as part of teh character. Again, that's the trade off you make. You gain access to all those forms, but it becomes more difficult to equip yourself. And that is not part of role-playing, that is part of combat maximizing. The two are not the same. Great. I have the money to spend on those slots- but there's no point since they either meld into my new form and become nonfuntional or they're just plain useless unless I choose a form of the appropriate size and body type. If I want a stat boost I can only get it through level bumps or access to the apropriate Ioun Stone (which are hard to come by). If I could keep EITHER the Con hp boost from the form OR the body slot availability I would be happy. But as it stands now, I get neither. Or by casting various buff spells. Again, this only works for a medium sized form with the appropriate body slot. It won't work on giants, aberrations (most), animals (many), oozes, dragons, elementals, vermin, mostrous humanoids (many) or plants. And the benefits of those forms more than makes up for it. I am not suggesting that I want to be ahead of the curve- only that I want to be able to use the class-granted benefits as they were written. In fact, I didn't choose the MoMF just for the combat. It's the versatility of the class that I love. . . . Then what is the problem with not being as combat effective? You still have the full range of shapes to change into, you just don't fight as effectively. I think that's why so many people think that this ability is broken. They think you get all those other benefits when you actually don't. . . . Except you still have all your other class abilities. And you still get the reach, increased Strength, and natural armor. And, as most people are well aware, combats at high APLs tend to be absurdly short things, barely lasting more than two or three rounds. So all those lost hp should be irrelevant, and the encounter should be over by the time you need to unleash them. And yet again, you are talking about being a combat monster and not a shapeshifting master infiltrator and communicator. My Living Arcanis character focused exclusively on non-combat abilities until he hit 7th level and gained some of the more harsh killing abilities. The most I could contribute to combat was calling astral constructs so people could get flanking bonuses, and sucking up a single attack before starting to bleed to death. Outside of combat of course I was absurdly powerful for my level.Any DM that ran for me regularly gave up on asking me to make Diplomacy checks, as I'd top out the list at my APL by taking 1, and could play up 6-8 APL and still keep the group going. The amount of damage I prevented and resources I saved by that more than made up for me being a speed bump once combat began. And now one of the more useful combat powers I have is being removed. (Solicit psicrystal.) Oh well, so much for being a combat monster, back to just talking my way out of everything. This is what bothers me most, too. It's what makes it seem like it's personally directed at players of druids and MoMF as if they're being seen by WotC as overpowered and unbalanced. And that is what bothers me most. Do you really think this is something that personal? That the designers just said "That danged Jim Weber and his MoMF! He must be stopped before he breaks another LG adventure!" Or that they even plotted generically against all players of MoMF? I am sure they did plot against something - polymorph effects, which most people I discussed it with were made egregiously overpowered when expounded upon in the Rules of the Game articles. And, as made clear in Andy Collins discussion of the change, it does indeed have a massive effect throughout the game system, so removing it is going to affect a lot. A bunch of MM critters didn't even get alternate form or change shape to replace it, they just lost it completely. Now that is losing out! And if something is seen as overpowered and unbalanced, what do you think they should do? Just ignore because there are people who are using it? That hardly seems like a good plan for design and development. Look at some of the threads about adventure design and review. There are low CR creatures with DR or hardness that can be placed in APL 2 adventures. Should they be used no matter what just because they can be? Wouldn't it be more enjoyable if they were kept out and players given a reasonable chance to survive their first adventure? I don't think anybody want to just gratuitously hose over people using a particular build or ability. But sometimes it is realized that something is too powerful and must be changed or removed. That is what has happened with the core rules. How it affects LG still remains to be seen. As Chris Tulach noted in another thread, the Circle will discuss it at WF and issue a ruling in Dispel Confusion after. And as several people have commented in the design forums, after that burst of follow up errata, they are expecting more revisions to follow. So it could be something completely different. And if not, I think I am safe in assuring you that it really isn't personal, even if it does mean a reduction (massive or minor to each persons perception) in combat power. |
| clannagh02-21-06, 05:14 PM | I think as a GM the main downside of these changes is party make-up is going to move even more towards boring fighters and mages (and teh odd cleric or rogue) with weird prestige classes that are annoying to judge. Locally i have actively tried to encourage more of the alternate core classes like druid, ranger and bard. The local group has a lot of younger players who tend to go fighter or mage, add a prestige class, hit things and then walk around after the game saying ... "I saved your asses did you see the XXX damage i did with my great axe/scorching ray?" |
| jmweber902-21-06, 09:38 PM | When encounters at that level come down to winning initiative or a PC dies, something is wrong with the system that good adventure design can't overcome. I've never run into an encounter like that before, unless the other players at the table were so unprepared that they deserved to die if they failed an initiative. Perhaps this is a sign that their "build concepts were just not viable." Which should be a sign that the basic build concept is not viable. You are not a barbarian, with d12 HD, and might raging. Indeed, many barbarians have realized just how vulnerable they are going into combat with low AC even with all their hp. The build allows a MoMF to fight like a barbarian in this instance. However, to really make this comparable, take your barbarian and make him rage and while he loses 2 pts of AC he does not get the additional hp from the Con boost. But of course his Fort save is improved and that should be consolation enough, I suppose. Then we can tell him that his build isn't viable since he isn't tweaked out to the max. And how exactly does "And I change clothes" slow down game play? What is there to rummage for? If only it were that simple. Then you need to choose between the benefits of a large form or having extra items. That seems quite reasonable to me. It is reasonable, to a point. There is a HUGE trade off already: no armor, no weapons, no stat boost items, no scrolls/potions, no rings, boots, headgear or eyewear, no gloves/ gauntlets or belts. The only thing you were allowed to keep was a cloak and a necklace. That is a lot to give up, but we could make it work. Now even that little thing is being taken away- for no good reason that I can see. Again, that's the trade off you make. You gain access to all those forms, but it becomes more difficult to equip yourself. And that is not part of role-playing, that is part of combat maximizing. The two are not the same. Yes, it is the trade off we were willing to make. Now we're been told to give up everything. And it's not just difficult to equip yourself, it's nearly impossible unless you have campaign documentation. Again, we were all willing to sacrifice that because we were allowed to keep 2 slots open- slot open even to animals. It's been left alone for the NPC monsters as well as adventuring animals but has been changed solely for the wild shaper. In addition, this does affect your role playing. If you think role-playing and combat are not interrelated then you have A LOT to learn about role-playing. Or by casting various buff spells. I have 4 1st level/ 3 second level/ 2 3rd level slots per day. Just how much buffing can really be accomplished by that- especially since I allocate half of these to role-playing benefits. Otherwise I just become a min/maxed weasel and that's not how I run my character. And the benefits of those forms more than makes up for it. There are definite benefits of these forms, that's true. However, they do not "more" than make up for it. It's a pretty fair trade, usually. Until you take away the type traits, body slots and Con bonus to hp. Then you're nothing more than a stripped down version of the form you've taken. Then what is the problem with not being as combat effective? You still have the full range of shapes to change into, you just don't fight as effectively. It's not that you're simply less effective, you're MUCH less effective. Unfairly so. Except you still have all your other class abilities. And you still get the reach, increased Strength, and natural armor. And, as most people are well aware, combats at high APLs tend to be absurdly short things, barely lasting more than two or three rounds. What?! You've got to be kidding, right? Why do you think that low APL tables finish on time at a convention and high APL tables almost always run way over? Instead of facing one or two creatures with just a few hit points, you've got several advanced versions of things with classes and over 200 hit points, DR, SR and everything else an author can dream up. And yet again, you are talking about being a combat monster and not a shapeshifting master infiltrator and communicator. And here again you are assuming that because there is a combat benefit to something that there can be no roleplaying benefit. This is shortsighted- and why people who believe this don't play the class. Those that play a MoMF can see the RP possibilities in most other aspects while also being effective in combat. And that is what bothers me most. Do you really think this is something that personal? That the designers just said "That danged Jim Weber and his MoMF! He must be stopped before he breaks another LG adventure!" Or that they even plotted generically against all players of MoMF? I am sure they did plot against something - polymorph effects, which most people I discussed it with were made egregiously overpowered when expounded upon in the Rules of the Game articles. And, as made clear in Andy Collins discussion of the change, it does indeed have a massive effect throughout the game system, so removing it is going to affect a lot. A bunch of MM critters didn't even get alternate form or change shape to replace it, they just lost it completely. Now that is losing out! Actually, I'm not sure why they did this. That's why it's so troubling. It's ridiculous to imply that I would think it was directed at me personally. But plotting against polymorph? Where is polymorph even addressed in the FAQ? It is under the heading of Wild Shape. Not polymorph type effects or even Alter Self- Wild Shape. That means it only afffects those with the Wild Shape ability- ie, Druids, Nature's Warriors and MoMFs. If there was some spell called Wild Shape, then I would see where it could affect spellcasters. If there was a feat called Wild Shape then I could see where it would affect those that took the feat. But there simply isn't. It's only available to the druids, NW and MoMF. THAT is why I feel we're being singled out. I would think that was obvious. I'm tired of arguing this. There's nothing that can be done about it. We, the affected players, can only await the Circle's ruling (which I doubt will overturn any part of the FAQ- only explain why it happened) and hope for a partial rebuild in order to account for this massive change in ability mechanics. Thanks for discussing this with me. John Weber |
| Sieylianna02-21-06, 10:10 PM | I've never run into an encounter like that before, unless the other players at the table were so unprepared that they deserved to die if they failed an initiative. Perhaps this is a sign that their "build concepts were just not viable." Then you've been lucky. In one VTF module, there is an ambush with two wild-shaped high level druids. Each casts fire storm as his first action. Even making both saving throws can be deadly to PCs who don't have evasion or excellent hit points. I believe the Spot DC to notice them, because they were also distant, was almost 50. Ed |
| Samwise02-21-06, 10:16 PM | I've never run into an encounter like that before, unless the other players at the table were so unprepared that they deserved to die if they failed an initiative. Perhaps this is a sign that their "build concepts were just not viable." Nope. Because if they won initiative, they could wipe out the bad guys with no problem. The problem is with powers at that level dealing so much damage that it is all who gets to go first that determines who wins. When surprise is a death sentence, something is wrong. The build allows a MoMF to fight like a barbarian in this instance. Excpet you still don't have access to everything a barbarian has. You've made that clear. Meanwhile you have other powers a barbarian can never have. So trying to strip stuff from the barbarian to make your point doesn't. If only it were that simple. It is that simple if you let it be. If you think role-playing and combat are not interrelated then you have A LOT to learn about role-playing. Or maybe you have a lot to learn about combat. I have 4 1st level/ 3 second level/ 2 3rd level slots per day. Just how much buffing can really be accomplished by that- especially since I allocate half of these to role-playing benefits. Otherwise I just become a min/maxed weasel and that's not how I run my character. Then don't complain when your character isn't as effective in combat as a min/maxed weasel. You have already made the decision to be less combat effective. A little more or less shouldn't matter. What?! You've got to be kidding, right? Why do you think that low APL tables finish on time at a convention and high APL tables almost always run way over? Not in my experience. But then, I like to run fast, efficient combats, so maybe my tables are just lucky. Like anything else, it is a matter of priorities. If you want to fool around, waste time, and fight below your maximum efficiency because of "role-playing", then don't complain when you can't finish an adventure on time. Instead of facing one or two creatures with just a few hit points, you've got several advanced versions of things with classes and over 200 hit points, DR, SR and everything else an author can dream up. You say that as though it were a lot. One d-door and two tanks unleashing 200-300 points of damage per full attack sequence, with weapons that make DR irrelevant, and everything is dead before it can say "Is it my initiative yet?" And here again you are assuming that because there is a combat benefit to something that there can be no roleplaying benefit. This is shortsighted- and why people who believe this don't play the class. Those that play a MoMF can see the RP possibilities in most other aspects while also being effective in combat. Apparently you completely missed me saying my LA character avoids hundreds of points of damage by pure role-playing communications skills. Actually, I'm not sure why they did this. That's why it's so troubling. It's ridiculous to imply that I would think it was directed at me personally. "It's what makes it seem like it's personally directed at players of druids and MoMF as if they're being seen by WotC as overpowered and unbalanced." But plotting against polymorph? Where is polymorph even addressed in the FAQ? Actually, I think that is the real problem. They were afraid of taking polymorph down, so they tried to band-aid it by changing everything related to it instead. As I've said in other places, that is always a mistake. And indeed as I've said elsewhere, if I were to make a change it wouldn't be on wild shape, which because of the shapes it covers in its base version is fine, but in variants on wild shape, like the MoMF. I think it still needs significant toning down beyond that, but that is how I'd divide up the changes. |
| Samwise02-21-06, 10:20 PM | Then you've been lucky. In one VTF module, there is an ambush with two wild-shaped high level druids. Each casts fire storm as his first action. Even making both saving throws can be deadly to PCs who don't have evasion or excellent hit points. I believe the Spot DC to notice them, because they were also distant, was almost 50. Ed Or the infamous Keoland T-Rex of Legend with 3.0 Haste. (Charge, Bite, and Swallow in the surprise round. Yeah baby! Then get your AoO, clear your palate, and repeat.) |
| Mommy was an Orc02-21-06, 10:25 PM | I've never run into an encounter like that before, unless the other players at the table were so unprepared that they deserved to die if they failed an initiative. Perhaps this is a sign that their "build concepts were just not viable." Perhaps you've never seen a Disintegrate or Finger of Death from a decent DC spellcaster being aimed at the party Wizard? A Grey Elf who started with a 19 Int should have a 22 Int. Give him a +2 Item for 24 and +1 more for Spell Focus. Suddenly there's a DC 24 Fort Save to be made or Wizard takes 24d6 of damage from the 12th level Wizard. It is reasonable, to a point. There is a HUGE trade off already: no armor, no weapons, no stat boost items, no scrolls/potions, no rings, boots, headgear or eyewear, no gloves/ gauntlets or belts. The only thing you were allowed to keep was a cloak and a necklace. That is a lot to give up, but we could make it work. Now even that little thing is being taken away- for no good reason that I can see. Master of Many Forms - Green Hags are still plenty tough - in fact, they're better than before because the MoMF won't lose HP for taking it. And then they can use all their equipment for super high AC. Druids - they're still full fledged casters who can now turn into tiny birds with high hp and start summoning. Now that might not have been your intent with being a Druid, but it is effective. |
| clannagh02-21-06, 10:28 PM | Apparently you completely missed me saying my LA character avoids hundreds of points of damage by pure role-playing communications skills Somewhat off topic .. but one of the issues in LG is that diplomacy to avoid combat rewards you with lost item access on the AR. |
| JohnduBois02-21-06, 10:37 PM | That's why you always negotiate with your axe hidden away somewhere (like a Glove of Storing). "Everything OK? You're putting down your weapons? Great. Did I forget to mention that Chaotic Good means that I can talk cultists of Vecna into putting their weapons down so that I can chop their heads off when they turn their back?" |
| Samwise02-21-06, 10:41 PM | Somewhat off topic .. but one of the issues in LG is that diplomacy to avoid combat rewards you with lost item access on the AR. That's something I've never seen. Most times Diplomacy just gets you a chance to reduce the EL of an upcoming encounter by giving you useful information, or it skips a needless encounter with critters you weren't supposed to fight in the first place. There were some issues with this early on, but they seemed resolved with a greater understanding of how the RPGA wanted encounters and xp awards to be handled. Now though such encounters are not meant to be fought, but are included for completeness of determined groups. An example would be the Keoland adventure Tomb of Tloques-Popolocas. Sure you could get some pretty cool items by hacking down the Olman cleric, and probably slaughtering the entire village. You could wind up completely missing the last encounter, and thus blowing the whole adventure like that, as well as picking up a bit of a curse, but that wasn't the intended outcome, so you aren't "losing" the acces, you just aren't getting the consolation "prize." |
| kmcrowe02-21-06, 11:00 PM | OK, I'm new to this board and to the whole druid thing, so maybe I'm missing it but it seems that there were three big changes: 1. Con no longer effects HP. 2. Loss of type and such, more confusion about immunity to fire if your a fire elemental and stuff 3. The specific requirement put into wild shape that no matter what form you take, all equipment melds. (which seems a stupid addition considering what's in alter shape) Is that correct? Also, on the flip side, the druid loses the restrictions of polymorph, so a 5 HD druid can change into a ... well nothing special. But an 8th level druid who can go large, can now change into a 12 HD dire bear because the restriction on HD came from polymorph, right? Which no longer applies since we're now using alter shape as the default ability, and alter shape doesn't have HD requirements. Are these the major changes? Is there anything I'm missing? |
| Iswald02-22-06, 10:47 AM | Also, on the flip side, the druid loses the restrictions of polymorph, so a 5 HD druid can change into a ... well nothing special. But an 8th level druid who can go large, can now change into a 12 HD dire bear because the restriction on HD came from polymorph, right? Which no longer applies since we're now using alter shape as the default ability, and alter shape doesn't have HD requirements. Are these the major changes? Is there anything I'm missing? The HD limitations didn't change. You still can't change into something with more HD than your druid level. This comes from the description of wild shape itself. |
| theliel02-22-06, 12:57 PM | OK, I'm new to this board and to the whole druid thing, so maybe I'm missing it but it seems that there were three big changes: 1. Con no longer effects HP. 2. Loss of type and such, more confusion about immunity to fire if your a fire elemental and stuff 3. The specific requirement put into wild shape that no matter what form you take, all equipment melds. (which seems a stupid addition considering what's in alter shape) Is that correct? <snip. the hd stuff was taken care of> still waiting on the #2 question, as that's pretty much borked the druids who went stright druid and go elemental to avoid insta dead from the assasins and sneak attacking rouges. oh wait, they changed the erratta. but didn't change the name of the file, great... so they made one type change exception, which still leaves the problem of, y'know, being an elemental and not being immune to critals and your own form. the mere fact that these changes create this kind of situation shows just how.....well, let's just say there does not appear to have been any regression testing on this one. |
| Samwise02-22-06, 04:05 PM | still waiting on the #2 question, as that's pretty much borked the druids who went stright druid and go elemental to avoid insta dead from the assasins and sneak attacking rouges. Druids that changed into elemental forms never gained the elemental type, and were never immune to sneak attack and the like. So this is simply not an issue. Nor would they need to be immune to their own form for some reason. An elemental does not do damage to itself simply by existing. |
| Objulen02-22-06, 06:11 PM | Druids that changed into elemental forms never gained the elemental type, and were never immune to sneak attack and the like. So this is simply not an issue. Nor would they need to be immune to their own form for some reason. An elemental does not do damage to itself simply by existing. Partially true. The Druid gains all the Elemetnals Exceptional, Spell-Like, and Supernatural Abilities, including the Immunity to Fire and Vulnerability to Cold for Fire Elementals, for example. On the upside, it means that certain clerics can't turn you. |
| Lupo02-23-06, 08:09 AM | a druid wearing a "druid's vestment" is granted an additional wildshape. so at what point exactly does the vestment meld into a wildshaped form and become nonfunctional???? pearls of power, metamagic rods and some other thingies are use activated and only need to be in the possession of the user, do they become nonfunctional as well?? ciao martin m. |
| Casebier02-25-06, 04:48 PM | One thing I keep seeing mentioned here is that these changes were made by the RPGa against only LG. The Errata was made by Wizards, not RPGa; it affects everyone that chooses to use the errata (or is forced to). Druid Wild Shape used to be based off of Polymorph. Polymorph said you changed to the type and subtype of your new form. Due to the changes made in the Errata, those Druids who also relied upon Wild Shape to give them low-light vision no longer have that. I easily remember a module that had the party entering an empty building, just to be attacked in the surprise round by 3 invisible rogues/assassins with very high Initiative modifiers. If the lead character loses THAT initiative roll, he'll probably take at least 6 sneak attacks. Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. The one thing I've disliked about the magic item usability by animals: Why can't they use bracers? There is a specific example in the MM of a creature using bracers. Granted, it's actually a magical beast, but if bracers can't be worn on any body part an animal has, what two limbs does a Unicorn have compared to a horse that can wear EACH bracer? John |
| Objulen02-25-06, 04:57 PM | Equipment melding with the new form doens't hurt the druid as much, since most forms wouldn't be able to use it anyway. It really screws the MoMF, since MoMF can use wildshape to actually turn into creatures that can use armor and weapons (giants, aberrations, etc). |
| Saracen02-25-06, 05:49 PM | <SNIP> Druid Wild Shape used to be based off of Polymorph. Polymorph said you changed to the type and subtype of your new form. Due to the changes made in the Errata, those Druids who also relied upon Wild Shape to give them low-light vision no longer have that. <SNIP> John John, And this is why the Polymorph spell chain was such a pain... Wild Shape is based on Polymorph Polymorph is based on Alter Self While you do gain type and subtype under Polymorph (which is different than Alter Self) you only gain traits that are Extraordinary (Ex) Special Attacks and all Natural Abilites (See PHB, pg. 180 for definition). You never gain (Ex) Special Qualities, any Spell Like ability (Sp) or any Supernatural ability (Su). Low-Light Vision is an (Ex) Special Quality so druids never got those abilities from Wild Shape even though it is listed in Animal traits. Bryan Blumklotz AKA Perithoth Lord of Grumpiness Player of a Drd5/Master of Many Forms4/Warshaper1 and Wiz5/Master of the Arcane Order4 |
| Casebier02-25-06, 10:43 PM | John, And this is why the Polymorph spell chain was such a pain... Wild Shape is based on Polymorph Polymorph is based on Alter Self While you do gain type and subtype under Polymorph (which is different than Alter Self) you only gain traits that are Extraordinary (Ex) Special Attacks and all Natural Abilites (See PHB, pg. 180 for definition). You never gain (Ex) Special Qualities, any Spell Like ability (Sp) or any Supernatural ability (Su). Low-Light Vision is an (Ex) Special Quality so druids never got those abilities from Wild Shape even though it is listed in Animal traits. Bryan Blumklotz AKA Perithoth Lord of Grumpiness Player of a Drd5/Master of Many Forms4/Warshaper1 and Wiz5/Master of the Arcane Order4 Bryan, That is why we're losing Low-Light vision. You never gained (Ex) Special Qualities, any Spell Like ability (Sp) or any Supernatural ability (Su) for the FORM you assumed, but you did gain the traits of the TYPE. One of the traits of the Animal type is Low-Light vision. Of course, it's a moot point now, so why argue about it? :) John |
| Samwise02-25-06, 11:23 PM | Bryan, That is why we're losing Low-Light vision. You never gained (Ex) Special Qualities, any Spell Like ability (Sp) or any Supernatural ability (Su) for the FORM you assumed, but you did gain the traits of the TYPE. One of the traits of the Animal type is Low-Light vision. Of course, it's a moot point now, so why argue about it? :) John Not according to the Rules of the Game article on polymorph. It was written saying you getting the type and subtype, and clearly states that changing into an animal you do NOT get low-light vision. And if people are playing wrong and the Circle decides not to implement this game rules change, then it is not a moot point. Another example would be changing into any large forms. The LG "version" of polymorph says your equipment doesn't change size. That means it wouldn't change size for anyone, even a master of many forms, because his wild shape is still based on polymorph, and would still default to that for the expanded range of shapes. So perhaps people aren't losing that much after all. |
| Objulen02-26-06, 12:18 AM | Not according to the Rules of the Game article on polymorph. It was written saying you getting the type and subtype, and clearly states that changing into an animal you do NOT get low-light vision. And if people are playing wrong and the Circle decides not to implement this game rules change, then it is not a moot point. Another example would be changing into any large forms. The LG "version" of polymorph says your equipment doesn't change size. That means it wouldn't change size for anyone, even a master of many forms, because his wild shape is still based on polymorph, and would still default to that for the expanded range of shapes. So perhaps people aren't losing that much after all. Hmmm. I suppose that depends. Does the fix for Polymorph only apply to the spell, or everthing based on it? It does specifically state that the change to size limits doesn't apply to druids, which seems to be a clarification, more than anything else. However, given that I never ran into this problem, I don't know. |
| Samwise02-26-06, 12:28 AM | Hmmm. I suppose that depends. Does the fix for Polymorph only apply to the spell, or everthing based on it? It does specifically state that the change to size limits doesn't apply to druids, which seems to be a clarification, more than anything else. However, given that I never ran into this problem, I don't know. As the exemption from the limit is on size, it would only apply to size, and not to growing equipment. So I guess Masters of Many Forms who have been becoming large giants and such have always been naked, but nobody realized it. |
| Objulen02-26-06, 09:45 AM | As the exemption from the limit is on size, it would only apply to size, and not to growing equipment. So I guess Masters of Many Forms who have been becoming large giants and such have always been naked, but nobody realized it. I'm not so sure. It doesn't make sense, really, when you consider that the change to Polymorph was really just to fix Polymorph. Then again, Druids were also barred from assuming forms outside of the MM as well, I guess. However, I'd say that the MoMF would be an exception. Druids couldn't normally assume shapes that used items anyway, unlike MoMF's, and the changes to Polymorph were meant mostly to make the spell balanced (or more balanced, depending on your opinion). Now, that doesn't mean that there actually was an exception, but given that it would seem a great many people never really noticed and/or assumed that the armor on a MoMF would resize in such shapes, it does beg the question. It also begs the question of how many wizards/sorcs were using giant forms and the like, since those classes couldn't use armor anyway -- the only characters really affected were MoMF's. The Circle itself may have been guilty of overlooking the same issue as DM's and players. Just one of those things that slipped through the cracks, I guess. |
| Samwise02-26-06, 10:40 AM | I'm not so sure. It doesn't make sense, really, when you consider that the change to Polymorph was really just to fix Polymorph. Then again, Druids were also barred from assuming forms outside of the MM as well, I guess. Yes they were. And wild shape worked based off of . . . polymorph. You know, as the explanation for the errata explained was part of the problem. However, I'd say that the MoMF would be an exception. Druids couldn't normally assume shapes that used items anyway, unlike MoMF's, and the changes to Polymorph were meant mostly to make the spell balanced (or more balanced, depending on your opinion). Except no such exemption was given for equipment resizing, only size limitation. So it would apply. Now, that doesn't mean that there actually was an exception, but given that it would seem a great many people never really noticed and/or assumed that the armor on a MoMF would resize in such shapes, it does beg the question. It also begs the question of how many wizards/sorcs were using giant forms and the like, since those classes couldn't use armor anyway -- the only characters really affected were MoMF's. The Circle itself may have been guilty of overlooking the same issue as DM's and players. Most wizards and sorcerers using it only changed people into medium forms precisely because of the resizing limitation. |
| Sieylianna02-26-06, 10:46 AM | Not according to the Rules of the Game article on polymorph. It was written saying you getting the type and subtype, and clearly states that changing into an animal you do NOT get low-light vision. So perhaps people aren't losing that much after all. The loss of animal type is going to make a big difference to my PC. In combat situations, I generally use Fast Wild Shape to change into a tiger and then cast animal growth on my tiger animal companion and myself. Two huge animals with pounce and reach are unpleasant for the opponents, although the size increase sometimes makes it difficult to find charge lanes. Ed |
| Samwise02-26-06, 10:54 AM | The loss of animal type is going to make a big difference to my PC. In combat situations, I generally use Fast Wild Shape to change into a tiger and then cast animal growth on my tiger animal companion and myself. Two huge animals with pounce and reach are unpleasant for the opponents, although the size increase sometimes makes it difficult to find charge lanes. Ed You can't stack size increases like that as the rules are now, so the change won't make any difference. |
| Objulen02-26-06, 10:54 AM | Yes they were. And wild shape worked based off of . . . polymorph. You know, as the explanation for the errata explained was part of the problem. It's not part of the problem. The problem was that Polymorph was house-ruled, and the house-rule needed a bit more clarification. And as it is, the errata left MoMF just as screwed, which was the case with the old RAW, so it's something of a moot point. Except no such exemption was given for equipment resizing, only size limitation. So it would apply. Yes, it would. I'm just saying that this was probably overlooked becaues MoMF can assume forms that use equipment that druids can't, just like this was probably overlooked with the errata to wildshape. Most wizards and sorcerers using it only changed people into medium forms precisely because of the resizing limitation. That's true, but then again, it's my opinion that Polymorph should have a range of personal. The changes to Polymorph were designed to fix Polymorph, and should be viewed in that light -- they were only designed to change wildshape in a somewhat minor way (only MM forms). That's neither here nor there, however, in a question about MoMF's, who can only change their own shape, and not others, and lose spell casting to do so. Removing items from them in forms that can normally use them breaks them. |
| Samwise02-26-06, 10:59 AM | That's true, but then again, it's my opinion that Polymorph should have a range of personal. The changes to Polymorph were designed to fix Polymorph, and should be viewed in that light -- they were only designed to change wildshape in a somewhat minor way (only MM forms). That's neither here nor there, however, in a question about MoMF's, who can only change their own shape, and not others, and lose spell casting to do so. Removing items from them in forms that can normally use them breaks them. Right. Again, I think that's the critical thing I agree with. Perhaps posting that over in the polymorph thread would make it clear to the designers. (Who are getting mostly suggestions for forms viewed, or xp costs, and such like.) |
| Objulen02-26-06, 11:05 AM | Where is that thread? These forums don't have a search function. :/ |
| JamesMaissen02-26-06, 11:21 PM | You can't stack size increases like that as the rules are now, so the change won't make any difference. First, that is (slightly) incorrect. You can wildshape into a large form and animal growth yourself (atleast previously). You don't gain size, but you do gain animal growth's resistances. Now of course there's wierd things like being able to enlarge person on a shifted druid, but that's what happens when you make random changes. Second, if the goal here was to make things make more sense then they've certainly failed. They identify the problem as relying upon other definitions for wildshape and to solve it what do they do but rely upon another definition! This 'well thought out' idea had fish not breathing water in its first incarnation, so I have trouble with seeing it as 'well thought out' myself. When you then start thinking how to handle a Con score not tied to your hps without being given further explaination then I think it will really dawn on everyone just how little thought did go into this. Best solution would be for them to decide what the heck they want wildshape to be able to do and write the entry separately and completely. Then they need to consider the few druid PrCs that specialize from wildshape and how they should change them in retrospect to accomodate both these changes and the original flavor of the particular PrC. Personally this melding issue is a horrid rules change as it only penalizes a small group without solving ANYTHING. The pure druid that was going to shape and have a necklace worn as a bear can (as has been stated) simply remove the necklace, shape into the bear and have someone else put it back on them. So it's not stopping a wildshaped druid from wearing gear that it was wearing beforehand. It is destroying the master of many forms that wishes to play an infiltrator and changes from human to elf just to find all his gear go away for no reason. It's a silly change that doesn't seem to do anything positive rather only curtail certain fun aspects of specialty classes. This isn't a case of whether or not druids are too powerful, but rather can we make wildshape make some degree of sense. The changes only annoy pure druids and curtail certain reasonable tactics (shifting for danger rather than 24-7). They certainly do not 'balance' anything, rather instead of smoothing things out they cause wierd problems and inconsistancies. -James PS: As to high level adventures.. I see the problem as twofold. First is that, by that time, cookie cutter modules (or plug and play) don't work with randomly generated 'parties' of adventurers. The choices we have in character building are far too wide reaching to be 'expected'. This doesn't lend itself into a unadapted short block module setting. Let alone be forgiving for railroading and rules errors (ie I just ran into a module that had bad guys 'take 20' for hide) to lead adventurers on a linear path (which given time constraints can be most desirable from a design standpoint). Second is that the game changes with level. Just as LG slowly learned that high level tables will do things like teleport (and that modules can incorporate such things rather than not take them into account..) we will learn that LG needs to adjust to higher level play by more than just scaling ELs of encounters and making skills checks have DCs of APL+X. Anyway that's my rant on that. (And to forstall or to curtail some of the fall out, no I don't have an easy solution to this.. if I did it would be here and many other places as my wonderful relvelation. But I've witnessed enough in LG to see some of the problems and identify them). Laters. |
| clannagh02-27-06, 12:16 AM | Second is that the game changes with level. Just as LG slowly learned that high level tables will do things like teleport (and that modules can incorporate such things rather than not take them into account..) we will learn that LG needs to adjust to higher level play by more than just scaling ELs of encounters and making skills checks have DCs of APL+X. This is an issue at all levels in LG not just high levels. My observation is that a good part of the issues lies with the local GM's. It is clear that the better written modules are designed to allow the GM to challenge a party of six well made characters in a balanced party a level above the APL. It is also clear that an APL 6 mod that is designed to challenge a well balanced full party of level 7 characters will party-kill the 4 level 4's with a horse and couple of dogs if the GM doesnt make some allowances. One of our local GM's regularly party kills any party that is not equal to or above the level of the module .. simply by playing the encounters with the monsters taking maximum advantage of every situation. |
| kjenks02-28-06, 09:57 AM | Equipment melding with the new form doens't hurt the druid as much, since most forms wouldn't be able to use it anyway. Oh, really? What does your druid lose when he uses Wild Shape? What? You don't play a druid? (How ever could I tell?) Losing armor, shield, rings, boots, pearls and metamagic rods is bad enough, but the worst for me is the necklace slot. My druid loses out on either a Periapt of Wisdom or an Amulet of Health. The Periapt is particularly troubling because of the loss of spell slots. Yes, I can change form then have my buddies dress me, but that's degrading and time-consuming. This whole mess means I'll almost never use Wild Shape for combat, and I now have a mostly-useless Natural Spell feat. I agree with James. This change was not thought through at all well and it was executed poorly. LG doesn't need to be a part of this. LG druids worked fine before this errata. |
| Objulen02-28-06, 10:19 AM | Oh, really? What does your druid lose when he uses Wild Shape? What? You don't play a druid? (How ever could I tell?) Losing armor, shield, rings, boots, pearls and metamagic rods is bad enough, but the worst for me is the necklace slot. My druid loses out on either a Periapt of Wisdom or an Amulet of Health. The Periapt is particularly troubling because of the loss of spell slots. First, read the post. Notice "as". The change doens't hurt druids AS MUCH as MoMF. I play druids. The forms druids can assume don't keep armor and shields because the forms taken don't use them -- that was true before the change. Rings might stay, they might not. A plant won't keep them, nor would some elementals, I'd imagine. Many would probably keep them Rods vanish for the same reason as weapons -- your form doesn't use them. Losing amulets sucks, and there's really no reason for it. Compare this to the MoMF, who has forms that use armor, weapons, and shields in the monster description, like giants. They get hurt much worse than druids, since they give up spell-casting to turn into giants, mosnterous humanoids, etc, who don't have the NA and the like of many other forms, and now, can't use items that made up for the difference. Yes, I can change form then have my buddies dress me, but that's degrading and time-consuming. And stupid. Honestly, I'd apply the "dressing-up" principle to druid wild shape. If I take off my equipment, hand it Joe Partymember, change form, and have Joe put items I can use back on, adjusted for size, I should be able to keep them when I simply wild shape. A bear can realistically wear an amulet, and probably rings, but it can't wield weapons (no opposable digit) and can't wear armor, since it's not a humanoid form (though you could have armor made for a specific form if you wanted to go around in that form all the time). A giant can wear everything, given the humanoid shape, and thus should be able to. This is by the old Polymorph rules that wild shape operated under. Your bear wouldn't keep armor or weapons unless it had an item with a magical property that said otherwise. This whole mess means I'll almost never use Wild Shape for combat, and I now have a mostly-useless Natural Spell feat. Druids aren't as bad off. Consider that you just said that you'll never use Wild Shape for combat. You still have full spell progression. Compare this to a MoMF, who loses 10 levels (or more) of spell progression for better wild shapes. No comparison. I agree with James. This change was not thought through at all well and it was executed poorly. LG doesn't need to be a part of this. LG druids worked fine before this errata. And I agree. I also think that MoMF have it worse off from this change than regular druids. There's no real contesting that. |