New wizard spells with a PrC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

New wizard spells with a PrC? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
denny1824
12-11-06, 08:33 PM When a wizard takes a level in a PrC that grants an increase in arcane spell level, does that also include getting two new spells in the spellbook? Technically, the 2 new spells in the spellbook are listed under a seperate heading from spells, so it would not be included. The description, on how you have studied and learned those new spells as you adventure, makes me think that you would get them.
Eagle Prince
12-12-06, 04:23 AM I think most all PrCs say it increases spells known also, so you should be fine.
Britt
12-12-06, 05:57 AM Spells known is for sorcerer type classes, not for spells in a spellbook. There is a ruling on this somewhere, but I forget where and what right now and don't have the time to find it :( Sorry. I'm sure someone else on here knows where it is.
Japangirl
12-12-06, 03:35 PM I think, however, that if you go 5 wizard/2 X PrC with full caster progression, at level 7 you get to add your usual two spells for free into your spellbook.
Lord Yod
12-13-06, 02:34 PM Spells known is for sorcerer type classes, not for spells in a spellbook. There is a ruling on this somewhere, but I forget where and what right now and don't have the time to find it :( Sorry. I'm sure someone else on here knows where it is.

A couple months back, I was in a discussion on the lgwizards yahoo group regarding this. I've always thought that the '2 free spells' was a wizard class feature, like familiar advancement - you don't get them from PrC's. Everyone who spoke up on the group thought it was the opposite.

I've yet to find a ruling on it, any chance you could find a reference?

(For what it's worth, Neverwinter Nights doesn't give you free spells when you level in a PrC... :))
TWG_Prometheus
12-13-06, 03:48 PM By that reasoning Sorcerers wouldn't get spells known either. It's part of a Wizard's base casting system. The rules for that stuff aren't laid out very well, unfortuantely, but Wizards should always get their spells so long as they continue progressing their Wizard casting.
Lord Yod
12-14-06, 05:28 PM The various class descriptions say 'spells per day(and spells known)...' as I recall.

So sorcerers/bards/hexblades/etc get new spells. Wizards, though, don't have a 'spells known' list, they've got a spellbook. Spellbooks aren't mentioned in any of the PrC's I've read.
Japangirl
12-14-06, 06:54 PM From what I have seen, even if the rules are silent on the issue, wizards get to add their two new spells per level to their spellbook. Adding spells to the book is like "spells known" to a sorceror.
Eagle Prince
12-15-06, 02:52 AM I would have to disagree, I don't see anything suggesting that spells known is only for sorcerers. And the only ruling that I can recall about this is from the old FAQ that says if you take a PrC that increases your wizard spellcasting, you get to also add spells to your spellbook.
Britt
12-15-06, 03:47 AM First, the term 'Spells Known' has special connotation in D&D as it is the exact term used to describe the sorcerer class ability.

Second, I just took a minute to look up Wizard and it is quite clear. The 'Spells' entry for wizards does not include the entry for new spells at 1st or other levels; that entry is included under the separate header of 'Spellbooks.' Furthermore, it clearly says "[a]t each new wizard level..." (emphasis added). That pretty clearly says you do not get the bonus spells form PrCs, as they are not wizard levels.

Now back to my reading of 1200 pages in 40 hours.
JJeff
12-18-06, 06:18 PM So that's the official word? Just confirming.
Britt
12-18-06, 06:26 PM It's not official. The circle doesn't make official rulings on rules ambiguities. That's just my opinion.
pedr
12-18-06, 09:27 PM I have recently noticed references which suggest that this was debated on Infinite Monkeys (the Yahoo LG rules arguments group) a long time ago, and that it was eventually clarified in some way from WotC that +1 spellcasting level does give a wizard two free spells. I don't have any citation for that, nor can I point anyone to the discussion in IM but it might be in the archives.
Britt
12-18-06, 09:38 PM It was clarified in the 3.0 D&D FAQ that increased caster level included the bonus spells, but this is not in the 3.5 books or FAQ. As a side-note, Infinite Monkeys is not a valid source of rules interpretations for LG; you can use it if you want, but it has no authority.
kjenks
12-18-06, 10:58 PM http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Infinite_Monkeys/message/13484

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Infinite_Monkeys/message/11927
JJeff
12-18-06, 11:11 PM Thanks for the links to Infinite Monkeys, but as Britt says, it's not considered a valid source for LG.

So, do we go to CustServ? I think in the end it'll be that the 2 free will be given, but until they give an official word on this, how are the wizards with PrCs in LG supposed to do when they level?
Britt
12-18-06, 11:23 PM CS isn't a valid source either; It's persuasive, but not authoritative. A FAQ or Errata is all that will eliminate ETV.
pedr
12-19-06, 08:49 AM So the question becomes: has anyone ever seen a table DM audit a wizard's character and expect him to remove the two free spells that he's taken for gaining a PrC?

I haven't ever played a Wizard in 3E so it's not something I've ever thought of, but this feels to me as if it's a core part of what gaining a spellcasting level involves and so should be included. That's just my opinion, of course, but the fact that this was clarified in the 3.0 FAQ and the entirity of the 3.5 rules are silent on it seems to be to be very strongly persuasive authority that this is the best interpretation. Clearly a table DM has the right to make an alternative ruling, but I would be inclined to argue strongly that he's come to the wrong one if he does.

(3.0 FAQ, 6/27/03, page 13)
clik_ml
12-19-06, 09:16 AM As near as I can tell, the wording and such was subtly changed to stealth nerf PrC'd Wizards- so subtle that I never noticed the difference before now. So I'm betting there's lots (probably almost all) of Prestige Classed Wizards out there who would be nerf-stomped effectively from having 4th-8th level spells all the way down to 3rd level spells as their highest (with a few here an there that they bought past their 4 favorites/level). That kind of neutering shouldn't take place as a table ruling/audit when it's not a rock solid interpretation (mostly thanks to 3.0's opposite intent).

If someone is gonna call down the thunder on this, then they had better have given some serious notice (say like putting it in a dispel confusion, possibly with a 1 or 3 month amnesty for Prestige Classed Wizards to fill up on their spell books).
GorTeX
12-19-06, 10:38 AM Isn't the 3.0 FAQ still valid for 3.5 on subjects that didn't change between the editions? I know I've seen this referenced other places, but can't seem to find an 'official' statement at the moment...hmm.
clik_ml
12-19-06, 10:54 AM Isn't the 3.0 FAQ still valid for 3.5 on subjects that didn't change between the editions? I know I've seen this referenced other places, but can't seem to find an 'official' statement at the moment...hmm.

Even if it were the case that 3.0 FAQ is still valid on 3.5 subjects that didn't change (not something that I've seen written, but is reasonable enough to grant as true), the trouble is that the wording did change between editions.

The wording was slightly tweaked for how wizards add spells to their spellbooks from 3.0 to 3.5, and it was tweaked in such a way that it seems as though there was intent to counteract the 3.0 FAQ ruling.
Howie23
12-19-06, 11:45 AM As near as I can tell, the wording and such was subtly changed to stealth nerf PrC'd Wizards- so subtle that I never noticed the difference before now. So I'm betting there's lots (probably almost all) of Prestige Classed Wizards out there who would be nerf-stomped effectively from having 4th-8th level spells all the way down to 3rd level spells as their highest (with a few here an there that they bought past their 4 favorites/level). That kind of neutering shouldn't take place as a table ruling/audit when it's not a rock solid interpretation (mostly thanks to 3.0's opposite intent).

If someone is gonna call down the thunder on this, then they had better have given some serious notice (say like putting it in a dispel confusion, possibly with a 1 or 3 month amnesty for Prestige Classed Wizards to fill up on their spell books).

Nerf-stomped due to lack of scroll access above 750gp. *nod*

The Gordian's Knot on all of this is that most wizards fill up their spellbook/Boccob's Blessed Book from other wizards, who may have been a prestige class wizard who got the spell as one of his levelling up spells. This is how almost all non-PHB core spells enter the campaign and are propagated. Unwinding that knot of access would is a bit problematic, I would say.
Britt
12-19-06, 11:56 AM See, to me, since it was mentioned in the 3.0 FAQ and then the wording was changed in the 3.5 text and the spells at new level not explicitly included, that implies they intended you to not get them. They were obviously aware of the issue, since it was in the FAQ, but chose not to mention it anywhere, while at the same time changing the text for that exact ability.

This is a rules ambiguity, so you're not going to see anything from the Circle on this. Until a ruling comes out in the FAQ or Errata, ETV. I'm guessing most people are going to just ignore the issue, though.
kjenks
12-19-06, 03:04 PM So the question becomes: has anyone ever seen a table DM audit a wizard's character and expect him to remove the two free spells that he's taken for gaining a PrC?

That's not a serious question. Most of us try to obey the rules. The real question here is, "What are the rules?"

My wizard's spellbook has an entry for each spell saying where the spell came from, like "Free spell, wizard level 4" or "NPC Merlin's book, AR 12" or "PC Bob's book, AR 11" or "Scroll, AR 9." So it would be pretty easy for me to figure out which spells to remove if the campaign ever makes a decision on this. (Not that my wizard has any prestige classes yet.)
Howie23
12-19-06, 03:27 PM My wizard's spellbook has an entry for each spell saying where the spell came from, like "Free spell, wizard level 4" or "NPC Merlin's book, AR 12" or "PC Bob's book, AR 11" or "Scroll, AR 9." So it would be pretty easy for me to figure out which spells to remove if the campaign ever makes a decision on this. (Not that my wizard has any prestige classes yet.)

But, do you know whether PC Bob got it as a free spell when leveling up as a Fatespinner? That's the Gordian Knot problem.

David
Britt
12-19-06, 03:31 PM I thought the gordian knot problem was just me shredding your ARs?
Howie23
12-19-06, 03:34 PM I thought the gordian knot problem was just me shredding your ARs?

No, no. That's the Alexandrian solution to the Gordian Knot problem... ;)
_m_
12-19-06, 05:25 PM another question: has anyone ever had a dm count there spells, and ask: how is it you have 108 spells in 1 spellbook, and then ask: how is it you can actually carry 18 spellbooks?

and yes, i know you can get liek, boccobs wonderfull book of yummyness, but its not like it matters, ive never seen a count.
JJeff
12-19-06, 08:00 PM Guess it's time for us to start counting then.
_m_
12-19-06, 08:15 PM Guess it's time for us to start counting then.

i agree. im sitting on a geometers spellbook myself, so im not worried, but it IS a fairly fundamental rule, it probably should be observed.
pedr
12-19-06, 08:33 PM Well for what it's worth I emailed Customer Support. While of course their response isn't determinative of the issue, it's good to get an idea about the answer from the people who are paid to answer these questions. The rep's response was that you do get the two spells.

Now I don't have the 3.0 PH to see the change in wording and I can't seem to find it in the 3.0 SRD but it might be because I've never actually looked in that document before (I skipped 3.0 completely). I think that in general it is very very bad form to change rules essentially by omission, especially given that 3.5 was intended to be an update, not a whole new edition, and therefore changes ought to be very clearly spelled out and not take effect by omission. Given that the 3.0 FAQ had stated explicitly that wizards with PrCs get the spells for their PrCs level, to change that in 3.5 should have been done explicitly as well. In the absence of express words changing the previous rule, I'm far more convinced by the argument that it has not changed.

Of course it would be best if this was actually formally clarified - but I find it odd that it hasn't been made clear even though it's been something like three years since 3.5 came out.
Lupo
12-20-06, 05:01 AM Well for what it's worth I emailed Customer Support. While of course their response isn't determinative of the issue, it's good to get an idea about the answer from the people who are paid to answer these questions. The rep's response was that you do get the two spells.

Now I don't have the 3.0 PH to see the change in wording and I can't seem to find it in the 3.0 SRD but it might be because I've never actually looked in that document before (I skipped 3.0 completely). I think that in general it is very very bad form to change rules essentially by omission, especially given that 3.5 was intended to be an update, not a whole new edition, and therefore changes ought to be very clearly spelled out and not take effect by omission. Given that the 3.0 FAQ had stated explicitly that wizards with PrCs get the spells for their PrCs level, to change that in 3.5 should have been done explicitly as well. In the absence of express words changing the previous rule, I'm far more convinced by the argument that it has not changed.

Of course it would be best if this was actually formally clarified - but I find it odd that it hasn't been made clear even though it's been something like three years since 3.5 came out.

i think, most players that played before the "conversion" did just carry on like before. new players saw what they were doing and never asked. and those who noticed might thought not to disturb sleeping dogs . . . . .

but what are the actual costs?

earliest prestige class level for a wizard around level 6:
level 6, two 3rd level spells, 600 gp
level 7: two 4th level spells, 800 gp
level 8: two 4th level spells, 800 gp
level 9: two 5th level spells, 1000 gp
level 10: two 5th level spells, 1000 gp
level 11: two 6th level spells, 1200 gp
level 12: two 6th level spells, 1200 gp
level 13; two 7th level spells: 1400 gp
level 14; two 7th level spells: 1400 gp
level 15; two 8th level spells: 1600 gp
total: 11400 gp

not some small money, but not so big any caster would start running around in rags.

more problematic is the access to spells, as now - with a restrictive interpretation - all spells would be only available through AR or MO documentation suddenly all the players would pester the writers and triads with demands for spell xy on an AR. making all SpC and PHB spells suddenly limited :rolleyes:

not very likely to happen or even practical.

ciao

martin m.

ps: the "update of rules" was clearly a "false labelling" - there were to fundamental rule changes - to not scare away customers who just invested into the 3.0 edition, it was more like the AD&D to AD&D 2nd switch. you could still use all the background and boxed material but had to adapt the game mechanics dramatically.
JJeff
12-20-06, 09:04 PM I found something:
Complete Mage p.70
Expanded Spellbook: When you reach 2nd level, you can add one spell of your chosen school to your spellbook. The spell can be of any level you can cast, and it is in addition to the normal spells gained when increasing your level.

This implies that spells are gained normally when levelling and refers specifically to a spellbook. Does this count as proof of a wizard gaining 2 spells per level when leveling a PrC?
pedr
12-20-06, 09:19 PM Not 'proof' (as PrC writers have been known to misunderstand rules before) but, along with the way it was clarified in 3.0 and not expressly disavowed when updated to 3.5 and the opinion of customer services, it creates a strong set of evidence which points to that being the interpretation which best fits with the totality of the rules and the intent of the designers as expressed through the rules-as-written.

Thanks for finding it!
clik_ml
12-21-06, 01:44 AM I found something:

Expanded Spellbook: When you reach 2nd level, you can add one spell of your chosen school to your spellbook. The spell can be of any level you can cast, and it is in addition to the normal spells gained when increasing your level.

This implies that spells are gained normally when levelling and refers specifically to a spellbook. Does this count as proof of a wizard gaining 2 spells per level when leveling a PrC?

From a strict reading, that isn't quite implied. It implies that you get the normal amount for leveling, per your class.

For example, from that quote you can say that wizards normally gain 2 spells when increasing their level, whereas prestige class X normally gains 0 spells when increasing their level.

So they worded that bit from Complete Mage in such a fashion that it sadly doesn't help the prestige classed wizard at all in this argument.

If they had said "in addition to the spells always gained when increasing your level" that would have gone a long way towards implying it (but still not clinching it) . Sadly they don't have legalistic enough writers, nor do they have a good set of terms with which to work. There is no real "glossary" term for the increase of a caster level wherein you gain new spells, and that is part of what is creating this whole conundrum.

How can they have such an important category (+caster level for spells known+per day), and no term to describe it? All they have is "caster level" and "effective class level", neither of which really fits the bill.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
denny1824 12-11-06, 08:33 PM	When a wizard takes a level in a PrC that grants an increase in arcane spell level, does that also include getting two new spells in the spellbook? Technically, the 2 new spells in the spellbook are listed under a seperate heading from spells, so it would not be included. The description, on how you have studied and learned those new spells as you adventure, makes me think that you would get them.
Eagle Prince 12-12-06, 04:23 AM	I think most all PrCs say it increases spells known also, so you should be fine.
Britt 12-12-06, 05:57 AM	Spells known is for sorcerer type classes, not for spells in a spellbook. There is a ruling on this somewhere, but I forget where and what right now and don't have the time to find it :( Sorry. I'm sure someone else on here knows where it is.
Japangirl 12-12-06, 03:35 PM	I think, however, that if you go 5 wizard/2 X PrC with full caster progression, at level 7 you get to add your usual two spells for free into your spellbook.
Lord Yod 12-13-06, 02:34 PM	Spells known is for sorcerer type classes, not for spells in a spellbook. There is a ruling on this somewhere, but I forget where and what right now and don't have the time to find it :( Sorry. I'm sure someone else on here knows where it is. A couple months back, I was in a discussion on the lgwizards yahoo group regarding this. I've always thought that the '2 free spells' was a wizard class feature, like familiar advancement - you don't get them from PrC's. Everyone who spoke up on the group thought it was the opposite. I've yet to find a ruling on it, any chance you could find a reference? (For what it's worth, Neverwinter Nights doesn't give you free spells when you level in a PrC... :))
TWG_Prometheus 12-13-06, 03:48 PM	By that reasoning Sorcerers wouldn't get spells known either. It's part of a Wizard's base casting system. The rules for that stuff aren't laid out very well, unfortuantely, but Wizards should always get their spells so long as they continue progressing their Wizard casting.
Lord Yod 12-14-06, 05:28 PM	The various class descriptions say 'spells per day(and spells known)...' as I recall. So sorcerers/bards/hexblades/etc get new spells. Wizards, though, don't have a 'spells known' list, they've got a spellbook. Spellbooks aren't mentioned in any of the PrC's I've read.
Japangirl 12-14-06, 06:54 PM	From what I have seen, even if the rules are silent on the issue, wizards get to add their two new spells per level to their spellbook. Adding spells to the book is like "spells known" to a sorceror.
Eagle Prince 12-15-06, 02:52 AM	I would have to disagree, I don't see anything suggesting that spells known is only for sorcerers. And the only ruling that I can recall about this is from the old FAQ that says if you take a PrC that increases your wizard spellcasting, you get to also add spells to your spellbook.
Britt 12-15-06, 03:47 AM	First, the term 'Spells Known' has special connotation in D&D as it is the exact term used to describe the sorcerer class ability. Second, I just took a minute to look up Wizard and it is quite clear. The 'Spells' entry for wizards does not include the entry for new spells at 1st or other levels; that entry is included under the separate header of 'Spellbooks.' Furthermore, it clearly says "[a]t each new wizard level..." (emphasis added). That pretty clearly says you do not get the bonus spells form PrCs, as they are not wizard levels. Now back to my reading of 1200 pages in 40 hours.
JJeff 12-18-06, 06:18 PM	So that's the official word? Just confirming.
Britt 12-18-06, 06:26 PM	It's not official. The circle doesn't make official rulings on rules ambiguities. That's just my opinion.
pedr 12-18-06, 09:27 PM	I have recently noticed references which suggest that this was debated on Infinite Monkeys (the Yahoo LG rules arguments group) a long time ago, and that it was eventually clarified in some way from WotC that +1 spellcasting level does give a wizard two free spells. I don't have any citation for that, nor can I point anyone to the discussion in IM but it might be in the archives.
Britt 12-18-06, 09:38 PM	It was clarified in the 3.0 D&D FAQ that increased caster level included the bonus spells, but this is not in the 3.5 books or FAQ. As a side-note, Infinite Monkeys is not a valid source of rules interpretations for LG; you can use it if you want, but it has no authority.
kjenks 12-18-06, 10:58 PM	http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Infinite_Monkeys/message/13484 http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Infinite_Monkeys/message/11927
JJeff 12-18-06, 11:11 PM	Thanks for the links to Infinite Monkeys, but as Britt says, it's not considered a valid source for LG. So, do we go to CustServ? I think in the end it'll be that the 2 free will be given, but until they give an official word on this, how are the wizards with PrCs in LG supposed to do when they level?
Britt 12-18-06, 11:23 PM	CS isn't a valid source either; It's persuasive, but not authoritative. A FAQ or Errata is all that will eliminate ETV.
pedr 12-19-06, 08:49 AM	So the question becomes: has anyone ever seen a table DM audit a wizard's character and expect him to remove the two free spells that he's taken for gaining a PrC? I haven't ever played a Wizard in 3E so it's not something I've ever thought of, but this feels to me as if it's a core part of what gaining a spellcasting level involves and so should be included. That's just my opinion, of course, but the fact that this was clarified in the 3.0 FAQ and the entirity of the 3.5 rules are silent on it seems to be to be very strongly persuasive authority that this is the best interpretation. Clearly a table DM has the right to make an alternative ruling, but I would be inclined to argue strongly that he's come to the wrong one if he does. (3.0 FAQ, 6/27/03, page 13)
clik_ml 12-19-06, 09:16 AM	As near as I can tell, the wording and such was subtly changed to stealth nerf PrC'd Wizards- so subtle that I never noticed the difference before now. So I'm betting there's lots (probably almost all) of Prestige Classed Wizards out there who would be nerf-stomped effectively from having 4th-8th level spells all the way down to 3rd level spells as their highest (with a few here an there that they bought past their 4 favorites/level). That kind of neutering shouldn't take place as a table ruling/audit when it's not a rock solid interpretation (mostly thanks to 3.0's opposite intent). If someone is gonna call down the thunder on this, then they had better have given some serious notice (say like putting it in a dispel confusion, possibly with a 1 or 3 month amnesty for Prestige Classed Wizards to fill up on their spell books).
GorTeX 12-19-06, 10:38 AM	Isn't the 3.0 FAQ still valid for 3.5 on subjects that didn't change between the editions? I know I've seen this referenced other places, but can't seem to find an 'official' statement at the moment...hmm.
clik_ml 12-19-06, 10:54 AM	Isn't the 3.0 FAQ still valid for 3.5 on subjects that didn't change between the editions? I know I've seen this referenced other places, but can't seem to find an 'official' statement at the moment...hmm. Even if it were the case that 3.0 FAQ is still valid on 3.5 subjects that didn't change (not something that I've seen written, but is reasonable enough to grant as true), the trouble is that the wording did change between editions. The wording was slightly tweaked for how wizards add spells to their spellbooks from 3.0 to 3.5, and it was tweaked in such a way that it seems as though there was intent to counteract the 3.0 FAQ ruling.
Howie23 12-19-06, 11:45 AM	As near as I can tell, the wording and such was subtly changed to stealth nerf PrC'd Wizards- so subtle that I never noticed the difference before now. So I'm betting there's lots (probably almost all) of Prestige Classed Wizards out there who would be nerf-stomped effectively from having 4th-8th level spells all the way down to 3rd level spells as their highest (with a few here an there that they bought past their 4 favorites/level). That kind of neutering shouldn't take place as a table ruling/audit when it's not a rock solid interpretation (mostly thanks to 3.0's opposite intent). If someone is gonna call down the thunder on this, then they had better have given some serious notice (say like putting it in a dispel confusion, possibly with a 1 or 3 month amnesty for Prestige Classed Wizards to fill up on their spell books). Nerf-stomped due to lack of scroll access above 750gp. nod The Gordian's Knot on all of this is that most wizards fill up their spellbook/Boccob's Blessed Book from other wizards, who may have been a prestige class wizard who got the spell as one of his levelling up spells. This is how almost all non-PHB core spells enter the campaign and are propagated. Unwinding that knot of access would is a bit problematic, I would say.
Britt 12-19-06, 11:56 AM	See, to me, since it was mentioned in the 3.0 FAQ and then the wording was changed in the 3.5 text and the spells at new level not explicitly included, that implies they intended you to not get them. They were obviously aware of the issue, since it was in the FAQ, but chose not to mention it anywhere, while at the same time changing the text for that exact ability. This is a rules ambiguity, so you're not going to see anything from the Circle on this. Until a ruling comes out in the FAQ or Errata, ETV. I'm guessing most people are going to just ignore the issue, though.
kjenks 12-19-06, 03:04 PM	So the question becomes: has anyone ever seen a table DM audit a wizard's character and expect him to remove the two free spells that he's taken for gaining a PrC? That's not a serious question. Most of us try to obey the rules. The real question here is, "What are the rules?" My wizard's spellbook has an entry for each spell saying where the spell came from, like "Free spell, wizard level 4" or "NPC Merlin's book, AR 12" or "PC Bob's book, AR 11" or "Scroll, AR 9." So it would be pretty easy for me to figure out which spells to remove if the campaign ever makes a decision on this. (Not that my wizard has any prestige classes yet.)
Howie23 12-19-06, 03:27 PM	My wizard's spellbook has an entry for each spell saying where the spell came from, like "Free spell, wizard level 4" or "NPC Merlin's book, AR 12" or "PC Bob's book, AR 11" or "Scroll, AR 9." So it would be pretty easy for me to figure out which spells to remove if the campaign ever makes a decision on this. (Not that my wizard has any prestige classes yet.) But, do you know whether PC Bob got it as a free spell when leveling up as a Fatespinner? That's the Gordian Knot problem. David
Britt 12-19-06, 03:31 PM	I thought the gordian knot problem was just me shredding your ARs?
Howie23 12-19-06, 03:34 PM	I thought the gordian knot problem was just me shredding your ARs? No, no. That's the Alexandrian solution to the Gordian Knot problem... ;)
_m_ 12-19-06, 05:25 PM	another question: has anyone ever had a dm count there spells, and ask: how is it you have 108 spells in 1 spellbook, and then ask: how is it you can actually carry 18 spellbooks? and yes, i know you can get liek, boccobs wonderfull book of yummyness, but its not like it matters, ive never seen a count.
JJeff 12-19-06, 08:00 PM	Guess it's time for us to start counting then.
_m_ 12-19-06, 08:15 PM	Guess it's time for us to start counting then. i agree. im sitting on a geometers spellbook myself, so im not worried, but it IS a fairly fundamental rule, it probably should be observed.
pedr 12-19-06, 08:33 PM	Well for what it's worth I emailed Customer Support. While of course their response isn't determinative of the issue, it's good to get an idea about the answer from the people who are paid to answer these questions. The rep's response was that you do get the two spells. Now I don't have the 3.0 PH to see the change in wording and I can't seem to find it in the 3.0 SRD but it might be because I've never actually looked in that document before (I skipped 3.0 completely). I think that in general it is very very bad form to change rules essentially by omission, especially given that 3.5 was intended to be an update, not a whole new edition, and therefore changes ought to be very clearly spelled out and not take effect by omission. Given that the 3.0 FAQ had stated explicitly that wizards with PrCs get the spells for their PrCs level, to change that in 3.5 should have been done explicitly as well. In the absence of express words changing the previous rule, I'm far more convinced by the argument that it has not changed. Of course it would be best if this was actually formally clarified - but I find it odd that it hasn't been made clear even though it's been something like three years since 3.5 came out.
Lupo 12-20-06, 05:01 AM	Well for what it's worth I emailed Customer Support. While of course their response isn't determinative of the issue, it's good to get an idea about the answer from the people who are paid to answer these questions. The rep's response was that you do get the two spells. Now I don't have the 3.0 PH to see the change in wording and I can't seem to find it in the 3.0 SRD but it might be because I've never actually looked in that document before (I skipped 3.0 completely). I think that in general it is very very bad form to change rules essentially by omission, especially given that 3.5 was intended to be an update, not a whole new edition, and therefore changes ought to be very clearly spelled out and not take effect by omission. Given that the 3.0 FAQ had stated explicitly that wizards with PrCs get the spells for their PrCs level, to change that in 3.5 should have been done explicitly as well. In the absence of express words changing the previous rule, I'm far more convinced by the argument that it has not changed. Of course it would be best if this was actually formally clarified - but I find it odd that it hasn't been made clear even though it's been something like three years since 3.5 came out. i think, most players that played before the "conversion" did just carry on like before. new players saw what they were doing and never asked. and those who noticed might thought not to disturb sleeping dogs . . . . . but what are the actual costs? earliest prestige class level for a wizard around level 6: level 6, two 3rd level spells, 600 gp level 7: two 4th level spells, 800 gp level 8: two 4th level spells, 800 gp level 9: two 5th level spells, 1000 gp level 10: two 5th level spells, 1000 gp level 11: two 6th level spells, 1200 gp level 12: two 6th level spells, 1200 gp level 13; two 7th level spells: 1400 gp level 14; two 7th level spells: 1400 gp level 15; two 8th level spells: 1600 gp total: 11400 gp not some small money, but not so big any caster would start running around in rags. more problematic is the access to spells, as now - with a restrictive interpretation - all spells would be only available through AR or MO documentation suddenly all the players would pester the writers and triads with demands for spell xy on an AR. making all SpC and PHB spells suddenly limited :rolleyes: not very likely to happen or even practical. ciao martin m. ps: the "update of rules" was clearly a "false labelling" - there were to fundamental rule changes - to not scare away customers who just invested into the 3.0 edition, it was more like the AD&D to AD&D 2nd switch. you could still use all the background and boxed material but had to adapt the game mechanics dramatically.
JJeff 12-20-06, 09:04 PM	I found something: Complete Mage p.70 Expanded Spellbook: When you reach 2nd level, you can add one spell of your chosen school to your spellbook. The spell can be of any level you can cast, and it is in addition to the normal spells gained when increasing your level. This implies that spells are gained normally when levelling and refers specifically to a spellbook. Does this count as proof of a wizard gaining 2 spells per level when leveling a PrC?
pedr 12-20-06, 09:19 PM	Not 'proof' (as PrC writers have been known to misunderstand rules before) but, along with the way it was clarified in 3.0 and not expressly disavowed when updated to 3.5 and the opinion of customer services, it creates a strong set of evidence which points to that being the interpretation which best fits with the totality of the rules and the intent of the designers as expressed through the rules-as-written. Thanks for finding it!
clik_ml 12-21-06, 01:44 AM	I found something: Expanded Spellbook: When you reach 2nd level, you can add one spell of your chosen school to your spellbook. The spell can be of any level you can cast, and it is in addition to the normal spells gained when increasing your level. This implies that spells are gained normally when levelling and refers specifically to a spellbook. Does this count as proof of a wizard gaining 2 spells per level when leveling a PrC? From a strict reading, that isn't quite implied. It implies that you get the normal amount for leveling, per your class. For example, from that quote you can say that wizards normally gain 2 spells when increasing their level, whereas prestige class X normally gains 0 spells when increasing their level. So they worded that bit from Complete Mage in such a fashion that it sadly doesn't help the prestige classed wizard at all in this argument. If they had said "in addition to the spells always gained when increasing your level" that would have gone a long way towards implying it (but still not clinching it) . Sadly they don't have legalistic enough writers, nor do they have a good set of terms with which to work. There is no real "glossary" term for the increase of a caster level wherein you gain new spells, and that is part of what is creating this whole conundrum. How can they have such an important category (+caster level for spells known+per day), and no term to describe it? All they have is "caster level" and "effective class level", neither of which really fits the bill.