Post/Author/DateTime	Post
greizak 02-08-07, 11:32 AM	The draft suggests that a player must actually own a non-core rulebook in order to use a rule option from it. I understand the need to have documentation about a rule option available at the gaming table in order to facilitate game play, but it seems a little strict to actually require the player to own the book. Isn't it sufficient to require that the player have a copy of the rule option available at the table? Wouldn't it also be sufficient for the rule to require that the book with the rule option must be available at the gaming table. In that way a player could use a rule option as long as one of the players or the judge at the table has the book with the rule. Otherwise, the rule is merely a marketing technique designed to force every LG player to purchase all optional gaming material.
pedr 02-08-07, 11:35 AM	This isn't a new rule. It was present in previous versions of the LGCS. I doubt it is going to change - I also doubt that people will be too severe in their enforcement of it.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 11:45 AM	The rule states that while you must own the book, a copy of the specific rules items is all you need with you at a table. Basically there is no way for any DM to verify if you actually own a book, so feel free to photocopy away.
MatteBlack 02-08-07, 11:47 AM	Otherwise, the rule is merely a marketing technique designed to force every LG player to purchase all optional gaming material. Have you considered why RPGA is largely free? I wouldn't worry that much, I doubt a DM will ask to see the reciept for the book. Just make sure you have a copy available to you that the owner won't need while you are playing. In the long run, there are worse things than financially supporting your hobby. Lee
Britt 02-08-07, 11:49 AM	The rule states that while you must own the book, a copy of the specific rules items is all you need with you at a table. Basically there is no way for any DM to verify if you actually own a book, so feel free to photocopy away. You must own the book for a photocopy to be valid. What you are suggesting is dangerously close to suggesting that people cheat and break the law.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 11:59 AM	You must own the book for a photocopy to be valid. What you are suggesting is dangerously close to suggesting that people cheat and break the law. Yes, but the DM's have no way of verifying if you own the book, meaning no way of knowing if the photocopy is valid. If you are allowed to use a rules item if you borrow a book, are you allowed to use a rules item if you borrow someone's photocopy of the book? I'm not telling people to "cheat", I'm merely stating the fact that the system leaves much unverified. If you want to use a rules item, but can't afford the books, and don't have one available from elsewhere, there are other options available that cost nothing (except maybe a guilty conscience). Just like, prior to the retraining option being included in the LGCS, there was no legitimate way for a character to swap feats/skills/spells, and yet there is also no campaign documentation for any of the above, so unless a player's character is very well known, they could easily swap out any of the above, as long as their build remained legal.
Britt 02-08-07, 12:02 PM	If you want to use a rules item, but can't afford the books, and don't have one available from elsewhere, there are other options available that cost nothing (except maybe a guilty conscience). Except those other options are cheating and illegal. You are violating the rules of LG and, more seriously, copyright laws.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 12:10 PM	Except those other options are cheating and illegal. You are violating the rules of LG and, more seriously, copyright laws. Oooh, scary...cause I'm sure that nobody on this board downloads music or books, being completely unaware of "copyright". What you are saying is about as useful as those "truth" commercials to smokers. They know it's bad, but they aren't gonna stop, and no one can make them stop.
Britt 02-08-07, 12:16 PM	And I wasn't trying to convince people that are doing it to stop, because that is fruitless. What I am doing is pointing out that it is cheating and illegal and that you shouldn't be encouraging people to do it, even in a round-about way.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 12:23 PM	And I wasn't trying to convince people that are doing it to stop, because that is fruitless. What I am doing is pointing out that it is cheating and illegal and that you shouldn't be encouraging people to do it, even in a round-about way. Just to clarify, I'm not trying to be an ass here, I just can't resist an opportunity to play devil's advocate. My whole point is really that in many regards LG has an honor system. And whenever an honor system is implemented, there are only two possibilities: EIther the people who implemented it are naive and ignorant, or they expect a certain ammount of breaches.
MatteBlack 02-08-07, 12:30 PM	Oooh, scary...cause I'm sure that nobody on this board downloads music or books, being completely unaware of "copyright". What you are saying is about as useful as those "truth" commercials to smokers. They know it's bad, but they aren't gonna stop, and no one can make them stop. So how many other rules do you blow off because you can't be caught? Sooner or later, some of the rules need to be followed if the game is going to be worth playing. Inciting others to ignore them does nothing to improve LG. If you have a book in your hand that no one else will need while you are playing, the game goes on smoother, no laws are broken and the game we enjoy remains a viable product to continued to be produced. I said myself that ownership would be difficult to prove but, what does inciting other players to blow off the rules prove about you? Lee
vvincent 02-08-07, 12:40 PM	Just to clarify, I'm not trying to be an ass here, I just can't resist an opportunity to play devil's advocate. My whole point is really that in many regards LG has an honor system. And whenever an honor system is implemented, there are only two possibilities: EIther the people who implemented it are naive and ignorant, or they expect a certain ammount of breaches. As others have said - this clause requiring ownership of the book is nothing new. It's been arround since LGCS 4.2 (back in 2005), and probably before that. How is the RPGA going to enforce it? When you break it all down, the whole system really operates on an Honor level. People can forge or falsify ARs if they really get it in their mind to cheat. People can read scenarios before they play them. People can be given copies of scenarios or be told about them in advance. People will find more ways to cheat than the Circle has ways of preventing them from cheating. Does that mean we should just say "sure, go ahead and cheat? If we can't stop you, we might as well give our blessing." No, we tell people the conduct we expect of them and trust that, for the most part, they'll abide by it. We have to trust people on some level. We have to trust that you aren't mass-producing copies of material and giving it away for free. If you think you're going to be questioned on whether the material is legally yours, here are some suggestions (in varying degrees of absurdity) 1) Bring the receipt 2) Bring a copy of the receipt 3) Buy the book at a convention from someone we can verify it with. 4) Take a Triad/Circle member with you to the game store so we can witness the purchase. 5) Buy the Triad/Circle a copy of the book when you take us with you to the game store. We'll be so busy looking at the book, we won't notice if you actually bought your copy. 6) Send us copies of your credit card bills. 7) Send us your credit card. I have a house payment coming up. 8) Send us a monthly gratuity fee so we don't turn you in. 9) Send us a weekly gratuity. I spend a lot of money on Pez (love that head-tilt) and need my fix subsidized. 10) Paint my house. I'm colorblind and need some help. 11) Something else (but be creative) Vernon L. Vincent Verbobonc Triad
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 12:50 PM	As others have said - this clause requiring ownership of the book is nothing new. It's been arround since LGCS 4.2 (back in 2005), and probably before that. How is the RPGA going to enforce it? When you break it all down, the whole system really operates on an Honor level. People can forge or falsify ARs if they really get it in their mind to cheat. People can read scenarios before they play them. People can be given copies of scenarios or be told about them in advance. People will find more ways to cheat than the Circle has ways of preventing them from cheating. Does that mean we should just say "sure, go ahead and cheat? If we can't stop you, we might as well give our blessing." No, we tell people the conduct we expect of them and trust that, for the most part, they'll abide by it. We have to trust people on some level. We have to trust that you aren't mass-producing copies of material and giving it away for free. If you think you're going to be questioned on whether the material is legally yours, here are some suggestions (in varying degrees of absurdity) 1) Bring the receipt 2) Bring a copy of the receipt 3) Buy the book at a convention from someone we can verify it with. 4) Take a Triad/Circle member with you to the game store so we can witness the purchase. 5) Buy the Triad/Circle a copy of the book when you take us with you to the game store. We'll be so busy looking at the book, we won't notice if you actually bought your copy. 6) Send us copies of your credit card bills. 7) Send us your credit card. I have a house payment coming up. 8) Send us a monthly gratuity fee so we don't turn you in. 9) Send us a weekly gratuity. I spend a lot of money on Pez (love that head-tilt) and need my fix subsidized. 10) Paint my house. I'm colorblind and need some help. 11) Something else (but be creative) Vernon L. Vincent Verbobonc Triad Well, with the exception of what may happen if book sales drop, the level of "cheating" I'm talking about has no impact on gameplay or other players whatsoever. As long as a player's character follows all the rules of the game mechanics and is a legitamate build, the game is in no way adversely impacted. Unless you are the paranoid type and it detracts from your gameplay experience worrying about things like "I wonder if all the other players at this table just completely changed their PC's ability scores/skills/feats..."
vvincent 02-08-07, 12:58 PM	You're forgetting that the burden is on you to prove ownership of the book. You asked earlier how a DM would prove you owned a book. My contention is that the burden is upon you to prove that you own it - and I address the various ways by which you could prove that you own a book. Cheating is cheating - whether you are falsifying documentation or whether you falsely claim to own a book. People who cheat detract from my play experience because I follow the rules and they don't, and it's not right for them to get away with it. It doesn't come down to paranoia - it comes down to fairness. I realize you're playing devil's advocate - a pastime I appreciate myself. But when you get down to it - the burden is on the player prove they own the book. If you feel you may be challenged on this - be prepared to provide proof. Any further discussion on this is merely argumentative. Vernon L. Vincent Well, with the exception of what may happen if book sales drop, the level of "cheating" I'm talking about has no impact on gameplay or other players whatsoever. As long as a player's character follows all the rules of the game mechanics and is a legitamate build, the game is in no way adversely impacted. Unless you are the paranoid type and it detracts from your gameplay experience worrying about things like "I wonder if all the other players at this table just completely changed their PC's ability scores/skills/feats..."
greizak 02-08-07, 01:06 PM	I did not mean to get everyone so riled up with my post. Nor did I want to suggest that people should violate copyright laws. I also did not intend to suggest that the rule I was commenting on was a new rule in the new LGCS draft. I merely meant to suggest that the rules should encourage players to want to play and take advantage of all of the playing possibilities available to them. With that in mind, it seems that the rules should only require that a particular rules option be available for review at the gaming table if necessary in order to clarify the rule. It doesn't make sense to force a LG player to own a book to take advantage of a legitimate rule. It does however make sense to disallow the use of a game rule if that rule cannot be verified. I hope that clarifies my original intent. Thanks for everyone's comments.
Britt 02-08-07, 01:09 PM	Actually, both goals are valid. We want to both be able to validate the rule AND encourage book sales. I'm being honest here, but more book sales helps this campaign. Yes, LG is a marketing tool for WotC and yes they want us to sell books.
jstorrie 02-08-07, 01:16 PM	Worry a little more about your own conscience than the Circle ban-hammer, duder. If you're constantly using Wizards content at LG gamedays hosted by your local comic store, maybe you ought to consider giving a little in return for the favours? Even if you're downloading the new Completes as they're released on torrent sites, it's not going to kill you to get the hardcopies of the ones you've decided to use.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 01:21 PM	Actually, both goals are valid. We want to both be able to validate the rule AND encourage book sales. I'm being honest here, but more book sales helps this campaign. Yes, LG is a marketing tool for WotC and yes they want us to sell books. Indeed, I'd love to purchase all the books used in this campaign...sadly, I have yet to even purchase a PHB/MM/DMG...so used to using the system reference document. I have actually purchased the Spell Compendium though...
greizak 02-08-07, 01:22 PM	Britt, Thanks for your candid answer. It is appreciated.
copper_wyrmling 02-08-07, 01:44 PM	Actually, both goals are valid. We want to both be able to validate the rule AND encourage book sales. I'm being honest here, but more book sales helps this campaign. Yes, LG is a marketing tool for WotC and yes they want us to sell books. Be happy about your new LGCS draft then, Britt - it caused me to spend around $150 on Amazon yesterday after I saw all the kewl new options for LG ;) (too many feat options... not enough remaining levels in which to retrain... and REALLY not enough TUs :weep:)
jstorrie 02-08-07, 01:49 PM	You should buy a PHB at the very least, Jay, if only out of consideration for your fellow players. "Can I borrow your PHB for a minute?" is such an annoying chant at conventions.
Arvagor 02-08-07, 08:01 PM	You should buy a PHB at the very least, Jay, if only out of consideration for your fellow players. "Can I borrow your PHB for a minute?" is such an annoying chant at conventions.And, unfortunately, a precursor to books going missing...
MatteBlack 02-08-07, 08:30 PM	And, unfortunately, a precursor to books going missing... Too true. I make a habit of writing my name in my books. They become a bit more resistant being accidentally taken and I would suppose helps you prove it yours to boot.
kenobi65 02-08-07, 11:56 PM	Too true. I make a habit of writing my name in my books. They become a bit more resistant being accidentally taken and I would suppose helps you prove it yours to boot. Agreed. I actually put nameplates in the front of all my game books. I'm less concerned about active theft, and more concerned about folks who borrow the book and forget they borrowed it, or when there's several copies of the same book floating around the table.
Gyro_LC 02-09-07, 12:03 AM	If money is a problem (and we all know these books aren't cheap), I don't see why with going halvsies with a family member, close friend, etc. isn't an acceptable solution. Certainly that goes along with the spirit of gaming, plus it's a sale where before there would have been none.
RedKnightofKet 02-09-07, 12:40 AM	Actually, both goals are valid. We want to both be able to validate the rule AND encourage book sales. I'm being honest here, but more book sales helps this campaign. Yes, LG is a marketing tool for WotC and yes they want us to sell books. Well, Britt, your suggestion a little while back that the PH2 would be a good pick up for LG helped me decide to buy it... Are you listening, WOTC? I bought a book (and this isn't the first time) because of LG, and because of Britt... PS - hey Britt, can I get part of your commission? :P
Britt 02-09-07, 12:50 AM	Hah, I wish we got commission. If nothing else, they would have to track sales due to LG, which I think would be surprising to most people.
Gyro_LC 02-09-07, 12:53 AM	Hah, I wish we got commission. If nothing else, they would have to track sales due to LG, which I think would be surprising to most people. I gotta say, I wasn't planning on buying any non-core books ever again (I only have the first four Completes and Spell Compendium), but this sweet LGCS update prompted the sale of a PHB2 and Complete Scoundrel. Curse you.