Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lomiat 11-18-06, 11:19 AM	If a paladin loses his paladin abilities due to an association with evil NPCs (after he was coerced to work with them -- or prove responsible for the death of his friends), I assume he needs to pay for the pricey version of Atonement. However, does this Atonement need to be cast by a cleric (or divine caster) of his deity (in this case, Gendwar Argrim)? Or can it be cast by any divine caster of appropriate level?
Japangirl 11-18-06, 07:35 PM	It has to be your deity. How could Iuz give you an atonement for Pelor, or Pelor for Iuz? Or to be a little more realistic, how could Obad-hai really forgive you for transgressing against Pelor?
Jay_Ibero_911 11-18-06, 09:42 PM	It has to be your deity. How could Iuz give you an atonement for Pelor, or Pelor for Iuz? Or to be a little more realistic, how could Obad-hai really forgive you for transgressing against Pelor? You simply become a Paladin of whatever deity the Cleric who cast the Atonement follow. Simple. Might change your character flavor-wise, but nothing would chance mechanically for you...
kenobi65 11-18-06, 09:50 PM	I'd agree that it needs to be cast by a cleric of your deity. If you can't *find* a cleric of your deity...well, that demonstrates one of the potential pitfalls of choosing an unusual or uncommon deity in your region.
Jay_Ibero_911 11-18-06, 10:02 PM	I'd agree that it needs to be cast by a cleric of your deity. If you can't *find* a cleric of your deity...well, that demonstrates one of the potential pitfalls of choosing an unusual or uncommon deity in your region. It's spelled out right in the deities document that any specific deity follower can at any time abandon their old deity and get an atonement from a cleric of the new deity and regain all abilities. So it really doesn't matter who you get an atonement from if you don't mind changing deities in character.
kenobi65 11-18-06, 11:21 PM	It's spelled out right in the deities document that any specific deity follower can at any time abandon their old deity and get an atonement from a cleric of the new deity and regain all abilities. So it really doesn't matter who you get an atonement from if you don't mind changing deities in character. That's the key. From a mechanical standpoint, you're correct. From an RP standpoint, it may or may not be appropriate or desireable. If the OP's paladin wants to regain his abilities as a paladin of Gendwar, only a cleric of Gendwar can help with that.
clik_ml 11-19-06, 02:07 AM	Back to the first part though, being coerced into violating code of conduct might not make you lose your paladin status. If you were suggested, dominated, etc, I'm pretty sure you're still in the good. It's not like you made a choice to violate the code of conduct, so you've still been faithful to it. Mileage as always, will vary- likely a table variation thing. I won't make paladins have to atone if that happens to em in my games anyway.
Madfox11 11-20-06, 05:12 AM	The following is from the atonement spell: "the atoning creature committed the evil act *unwittingly* or under some *form of compulsion*, atonement operates normally at no cost to you". So even when forced to commit such an act, it is clearly expected that you attone for the deed. It just costs you only 450 gp - standard price for a 5th level spell and not particular expensive (especially not at higher levels)- and not the huge amount of extra money that is required when the spell costs the caster 500 xp (or 12,500 gp for the PC). I have certainly surprised my DM in a couple of occassions where I paid for this spell when my character was forced into dodgy actions - most of the time for the exact same reason the original poster stated. As a player I hated it when one player blackmailed the others into an act, so I certainly did not do the same when playing something akin to a paladin (although I would note down the name of the PC and refuse to adventure with him in future adventures). Note that after a Core you can find a cleric of virtually any faith, so if there is no such cleric available regionally, you can always do so after (or before depending on the DM and adventure) a Core.
Britt 11-20-06, 05:31 AM	I don't think atonement is on the core access spell list, though. It would make sense that you could find the spell in Greyhawk City, but I'd have to look over the LGCS again to make sure you can even get the spell without someone in the mod having it.
Madfox11 11-20-06, 10:13 AM	After reading the rules in the LGCS (page 43 and 44) concerning NPC Spellcasting availability, there are two things to conclude: - The rules are more restrictive than I remembered... - Atonement is NOT on the list. - I am not entirely sure that the list is a list of the *only* available spells... It is something I am going to look in when we are going to work on the new version of the LGCS. Atonement should be available, if only to help limit potential player conflicts. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
Britt 11-20-06, 11:11 AM	If it becomes available, you'll need a section clarifying when NPCs will cast it for you. Some uses it says typically require a quest, which I would think would need a SM form the Triad. Maybe say that the cheap uses are freely available?
Lomiat 11-20-06, 06:16 PM	Don't "unwittingly" and "compulsion" (in the sense of whether or not a Paladin fully intend to commit an evil act) refer to some sort of ruse through which the Paladin can't see and/or mental domination/control? I'm curious. The situation in which our paladin lost his paladin-hood was this: Our party played through the first part of an adventure with an optional encounter (which featured an assassin--clearly evil) and then set out to capture the assassin after it got away (or follow our leads to its master). We fought the NPC responsible for all the schemes, including the hiring of the assassin, and got our butts handed to us. In order to prevent a TPK, our bard (the only PC left standing) offered our services in exchange for our lives. Thus, when the paladin was brought back to positive hit points, he had the "option" to agree to the bargain or risk everyone's lives while sacrificing his own. He agreed to work with the NPC, clearly allying himself with known evil forces (though the NPC was likely neutral herself, she had hired an evil assassin to commit a clearly evil act). This is why I said our paladin was "coerced." The decision was not quite foregone, but it put him in a very difficult place to make a "good" choice. At any rate, he agreed to the bargain, and the DM decided he lost his paladin-hood. Meanwhile, I wonder if it's possible to: 1) Use a Limited Wish to Atone a PC -- as though cast by a deity of the PC's choice. 2) Use Magic Device to emulate a cleric of the appropriate deity while casting the spell (either prepared or from a scroll). Thanks again.
Britt 11-20-06, 06:33 PM	1) I would probably allow this from an arcane caster of the appropriate diety, but I would not allow an arcane caster to mimic having an appropriate diety. 2) You are not activating a magic device if you cast it, so no in that method. If from a scroll, there is nothing in UMD that allows emulating the deity you worship; while I might in other situations say that intent would allow emulating the worship of a deity, atonement is such a specific case that I would not allow it for this. One thing to note, neither the PH nor the LGCS limit atonement to particular deities. According to a strict reading of the rules, a cleric of Iuz could atone a paladin. I think this is ridiculous and it has led to a few arguments in my experience. Personally, I limit valid casters to worshippers of the same deity or worshippers of a deity that shares a similar concern regarding the violation that is being atoned. For example, if someone is trying to regain paladinhood for commiting chaotic acts, a LN deity might work. If a cleric of a god of magic somehow loses their powers for destroying magic or some such, I would allow a cleric of another god of magic to restore their abilities. This is just what I've done in the past; there are no actual rules for it. For switching faiths, I've always required a cleric of the new deity cast the atonement.
Madfox11 11-21-06, 04:33 AM	In a home campaign I would probably require the paladin to go for the expensive variation of the atonement. In Living Greyhawk I would be much less strict due to nature of organizing tables. I prefer my players to role-play, but not at the expense of the others at the table. In any event, Britt is right. Right now you will need to contact either your local triad, or the triad of the region in which the adventure was set, and ask about the atonement. I also agree with Britt that I would allow other gods to provide an atonement under limited circumstances, although I would focus more on relations than outlook. If I remember correctly Gendwar (no books at hand, and sue me for not knowing all the Greyhawk deities ;)) is a dwarven deity, so I would definitely allow clerics of Moradin, Beronar or Clangedin cast an atonement. Ultimately this is up to your local triad though.
gomeztoo 11-21-06, 02:35 PM	I could have told you you nee dto contact your Triad - that's how I got an atonement to change the faith of my PC (from Zagyg to Aasterinian). Some triads may make it easier than others, given the rigth reason. I had to pay some gold (1000 gp iirc) and TU - still not much, but I figure the clerics liked my PC to convert ;).
clannagh 11-21-06, 05:41 PM	Alternatively find a player cleric of Gendwar. As for changing deities. As far as I recall the reference in the deities document refers specifically to clerics and favored souls .. implying to me that if you are NOT a cleric/favored soul you can change deity willy nilly. Logically it would be rather odd if a barbarian fighter type with no strong religious views had to obtain an atonement every time they changed the nomminal diety they worship.
_m_ 11-21-06, 06:41 PM	Alternatively find a player cleric of Gendwar. well gee, i wonder who THAT could be... ... damn pessamist...
clik_ml 11-22-06, 02:29 AM	As for changing deities. As far as I recall the reference in the deities document refers specifically to clerics and favored souls .. implying to me that if you are NOT a cleric/favored soul you can change deity willy nilly. I believe it goes on to say that divine casters (paladins, rangers, druids, or whoever has a divine caster list) who choose to venerate a specific deity are then shackled with the same restrictions for switching deities due to that choice.
gomeztoo 11-22-06, 02:27 PM	Logically it would be rather odd if a barbarian fighter type with no strong religious views had to obtain an atonement every time they changed the nomminal diety they worship. The char turned from a cleric of Zagyg to a cleric of Aasterinian. Hence the need of an atonement. She did spent a scenario without clerical powers too (she had to prove herself a bit first). But luckily with only one level of cleric that doesn't hurt that much. Gomez