Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 08-10-06, 09:56 AM	Just wanted to make sure. Does the current LG rules allow for PHBII material? PHBII came out after the current year's rules right? Thanks. Cheers.
kenobi65 08-10-06, 10:28 AM	Yes, PHB II came out after the CY596 rules update. So, at this point, anything in it would be considered "Limited" access. Possible that some of it might become more available with the CY597 update, next year.
trollbill 08-10-06, 10:30 AM	Technically, everything in the PHB II is classified as 'Limited.' Which means no access without documentation. However, since the PHB II does not appear on the latest LGCS's list of allowable sources for adventure writers, there is no way to get said documentation. In all likely-hood, at least some portions of the PHB II will appear on the LGCS 597 CY. You can also get to play with some of the contents of the PHB II now if you play in the Xendrick Expeditions Campaign.
JamesMaissen 08-10-06, 01:39 PM	Technically, everything in the PHB II is classified as 'Limited.' Which means no access without documentation. However, since the PHB II does not appear on the latest LGCS's list of allowable sources for adventure writers, there is no way to get said documentation. I'm still fuzzy about what's limited and what's not. People say that everything defaults to 'Limited' and when 'new' books come out that everything in them is automatically limited, but the LGCS when defining limited only refers to those materials listed in the beginning of that section which is a fixed list of books. So what exactly is classified as 'Limited'? If you had access to something from it via an AR, is it then something you could take? Obviously that would be the intent, but is it currently legal via the LGCS, or am I reading things incorrectly? -James
ezreal2001 08-10-06, 07:23 PM	I'm still fuzzy about what's limited and what's not. People say that everything defaults to 'Limited' and when 'new' books come out that everything in them is automatically limited, but the LGCS when defining limited only refers to those materials listed in the beginning of that section which is a fixed list of books. So what exactly is classified as 'Limited'? If you had access to something from it via an AR, is it then something you could take? Obviously that would be the intent, but is it currently legal via the LGCS, or am I reading things incorrectly? -James You should also ask what is not restricted for writters too.
JayParker 08-14-06, 09:46 AM	However, since the PHB II does not appear on the latest LGCS's list of allowable sources for adventure writers, there is no way to get said documentation. All you have to do is get Triad appoval (who then get Circle approval) to use sources not listed in the LGCS... I've seen FR stuff in mods, DMG2 stuff and PHB2 stuff on ARs... so saying "there's no way" is incorrect.
JayParker 08-14-06, 09:47 AM	If you had access to something from it via an AR, is it then something you could take? As long as it's on your AR, you can take it... ARs can trump the LGCS (awakened cohort bears for example)... :rolleyes:
JamesMaissen 08-14-06, 03:34 PM	As long as it's on your AR, you can take it... ARs can trump the LGCS (awakened cohort bears for example)... :rolleyes: If this is true, then I'm missing the point of this new 'default' limited. What exactly does it allow that otherwise would not be allowed? If the LGCS listed out the limited material from the books listed in that section, what would change other than several more pages being added? I'd like to understand what's been gained by doing this that wasn't possible without it, Thank you for your patience, James Maissen
Samwise 08-14-06, 03:59 PM	What is gained other than making it easier to eliminate access to "any limited" feat or spell or whatever? And don't confuse the concept of anything on the AR is accessible with whether or not the Circle will approve of something getting on the AR. Yes, IF it is there you can buy it. That doesn't mean you should expect to see everything from the PHB II squeezed onto ARs before the end of the year. Indeed, it doesn't mean you should expect to see anything from the PHB II on an AR before the end of the year.
vvincent 08-14-06, 04:04 PM	If this is true, then I'm missing the point of this new 'default' limited. What exactly does it allow that otherwise would not be allowed? If the LGCS listed out the limited material from the books listed in that section, what would change other than several more pages being added? I'd like to understand what's been gained by doing this that wasn't possible without it, Thank you for your patience, James Maissen The idea of the default Limited list is that documentation is required to take something unless it appears on one of the other lists. If there's a question about whether something is available (such as the new crusader class from Tome of Battle), the default answer is that it's Limited access unless you see it explicitly listed in another section (such as Core or Restricted). The reason the Circle went to the 'default Limited' idea is that the Limited list is the largest list in the LGCS. It rarely, if ever, gets shorter. Because of that - it takes up the most space of the three categories (Core, Limited, Restricted). So the Circle decided that they would rather assume that something is Limited unless they chose to place it in a different category. Yes - it means more work for the player to reference in the LGCS. You now have to look through two lists (Core and Restricted) and infer from the information you find there as to whether what you are looking for is Limited. For my money, I'd rather see those lists moved to an Appendix (Appendix Two: Limited Access) - which could be easily updated. But I'm not Circle and I assume they have their reasons for doing it they way they do. Now - as to whether PH2 is allowed in the campaign - while the LGCS does list those books that have been officially incorporated, it should not be viewed as comprehensive or exhaustive. The fact is that stuff from any WotC product could potentially show up in the campaign. The list, as I view it, is meant to be an indication of approved sources for material in the campaign, but that doesn't mean something that doesn't appear on the list isn't approved. For writers - it's always good to ask the Triad if you want to use something from a source other than those listed in the LGCS. Assuming the Triad even wants it allowed in the campaign, they then have to get special permission from the Circle. Hope that helps! Vernon L. Vincent Verbobonc Triad
thorinXXX 08-14-06, 04:26 PM	PHBII stuff is being allowed in LG. I have seen a few AR's with PHBII stuff; spells, feats, and other benefits.
vvincent 08-14-06, 04:50 PM	PHBII stuff is being allowed in LG. I have seen a few AR's with PHBII stuff; spells, feats, and other benefits. It's probably more accurate to say that PH2 stuff has been permitted in the game. I saw some stuff given out in the LG GenCon Special. However, saying it's 'allowed' gives the impression that it's freely available (at least it gives me that imoression). In general, the stuff is still Limited. None of the material is Core access (so no Knights or Duskblades without special access). In general, if you're a writer - ask your Triad for permission before using any material from a book not specifically mentioned in the LGCS. Vernon L. Vincent Verbobonc Triad
Mattastrophic 08-16-06, 05:47 PM	So, question: My character has a favor that allows him to take any Limited spell and add it to his spellbook. Does this mean that he can take a PHB2 spell? -Matt
vvincent 08-16-06, 06:16 PM	Just an opinion here - but I would say no. As PH2 has not explicitly appeared in the LGCS, it's not available for people to chose options from unless you get documentation explicitly granting you the privilege. Incidentally, the Circle decreed that rewards could not longer grant access to 'any' limited spell/feat/etc- the reward instead had to name a specific Limited item. Any reward that granted such access was required to be errataed by the issuing Triad. If you got that reward from a regional adventure, you should contact the Triad of the issuing region. Vernon L. Vincent So, question: My character has a favor that allows him to take any Limited spell and add it to his spellbook. Does this mean that he can take a PHB2 spell? -Matt
Mattastrophic 08-16-06, 07:05 PM	Well, a spell/feat/PrC... it's Limited or it's not. So if it's Limited, I can take it. If it's Not Limited, I can't take it. Thus, is the content of the PHB2 Limited or Not Limited? Your post before this one says yes, but this one right here says no. Just an opinion here - but I would say no.
vvincent 08-16-06, 07:31 PM	Okay - if you want to be argumentative. All I was doing earlier was trying to help another individual understand "Limited" as clarified in the LGCS. The Circle's logic is that - unless it appears in either the Core or Restricted list - it's Limited. However, the Circle has also clarified what books constitue valid resources for Limited access. This list is found on page 62 of the LGCS 596 (Chapter Nine: Living Greyhawk FAQ, Errata, & Rules Variants). Player's Handbook II does not appear there. So you are not allowed to make use of anything in there unless you have documentation that specifically grants you the right. As a side note - material from the Forgotten Realms (and other sources) has appeared in LG. That does not mean that said material is a legitimate source of Limited access. Just because a new book appears on AR does not mean that it's available for general use - it means that the Circle granted an exception and allowed it in until such time as they chose to make a blanket ruling of the material (i.e. when they next update the LGCS). Triads are able to secure such exceptions provided it fits their regional flavor and the Circle is willing to grant such an exception - but, again, that does not mean all such material is autmatically available. The LGCS is very clear as to what books are in general use in the campaign. Unless you have documentation explicitly allowing you to use options from other books, it's not allowed. If you want to use my attempt to be helpful as justification to shoehorn access to Player's Handbook II now - I wish you luck and will patiently await the fruits of your endeavor. Vernon L. Vincent Verbobonc Triad Well, a spell/feat/PrC... it's Limited or it's not. So if it's Limited, I can take it. If it's Not Limited, I can't take it. Thus, is the content of the PHB2 Limited or Not Limited? Your post before this one says yes, but this one right here says no.
Mattastrophic 08-16-06, 08:00 PM	If I sound argumentative, it's because I'm very annoyed by allllllll the confusion that LGCS creates rather than dispels. All the ambiguous wordings, especially. Such as this case. One has to admit that this "you have to have access to the book, too" way of doing things is just an absolutely terrible way to run things. Also, the language of page 62 and the LGCS's liberal use of the term "campaign documentation" all but clarifies what "campaign documentation" actually is. A question I posted awhile back about whether Exalted Deeds content is Limited got kicked all the way back up to the Circle, who came back with "Consult your Triad." Now that's a ball dropping if I've ever seen one. -Matt However, the Circle has also clarified what books constitue valid resources for Limited access. This list is found on page 62 of the LGCS 596 (Chapter Nine: Living Greyhawk FAQ, Errata, & Rules Variants). Player's Handbook II does not appear there. So you are not allowed to make use of anything in there unless you have documentation that specifically grants you the right.
Iswald 08-16-06, 09:35 PM	Okay - if you want to be argumentative. All I was doing earlier was trying to help another individual understand "Limited" as clarified in the LGCS. The Circle's logic is that - unless it appears in either the Core or Restricted list - it's Limited. However, the Circle has also clarified what books constitue valid resources for Limited access. This list is found on page 62 of the LGCS 596 (Chapter Nine: Living Greyhawk FAQ, Errata, & Rules Variants). One of the primary reasons given for the removal of the list of limited spells, feats, PrCs was that it would speed up the inclusion of new material into the campaign. Clearly, this means that as new books are released, everything in them is limited and available. Otherwise, nothing changes. It would still take just as long to add new material into the campaign as the circle would have to go through everything and sort it out into core, limited, restricted or NPC only.
JamesMaissen 08-17-06, 03:26 AM	Okay - if you want to be argumentative. All I was doing earlier was trying to help another individual understand "Limited" as clarified in the LGCS. The Circle's logic is that - unless it appears in either the Core or Restricted list - it's Limited. However, the Circle has also clarified what books constitue valid resources for Limited access. This list is found on page 62 of the LGCS 596 (Chapter Nine: Living Greyhawk FAQ, Errata, & Rules Variants). I can't speak for the other poster, but I will say that I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I'm merely confused as there seems to be a selfcontradiction here. Maybe I'm not understanding the nuances here or something. On the one hand people post on the boards and say 'everything not in the LGCS is limited' but at the same time the LGCS says it's constrained to just the stuff from a specific list of books. So which is it? It seems you are saying both are true. I don't doubt that what you're saying is the truth, but it seems to be contradictory. So, perhaps explaining what has been gained by this 'default Limited' rule, other than remove a long list from the LGCS that was helpful to players? I don't mind something changing and being slightly annoying to deal with (as this is as the list was a good resource), but I would like to know that it is in futherance of some goal (and what it has accomplished). If it was merely a lack of desire to maintain the list in question, I'm sure that a volunteer could have been found that would be more than willing to do so and everyone would be happy and this confusion would have been avoided. Again, I'm not trying to cause trouble or an arguement here. I just want to understand this. I've asked this question sporatically since its inception and have never been able to get a straight answer to it. People have said it lets triads/authors include material from other sources, but I don't see how this furthers it. You could simply tell them they could get 'outside' sources approved and still have a generalized limited list from specific 'LG' sources to keep track of say where one should look for a feat (in case a new version comes out, or a feat gets lost in the shuffle, or the like). Anyway, if someone could really explain this to me I'd be interested in understanding it finally, Thanks, James
GrahamWills 08-17-06, 08:29 AM	The LCGS has a section which defines which books are to be considered. If it's not in there, you have no form of access whatsoever. Forgotten Realms, PHBII, the cool spell you wrote on your napkin at Gen Con ... they are all in the same category; not up for consideration. They do not exist in LG. If what you are looking for is in one of the listed books and is not specifically listed as CORE or RESTRICTED, then it is LIMITED. It really isn't that hard. If an AR says, say "may use the fighter feat progression from PHBII", then that is basically the same as saying "may use the Brother of the Skin spell from Call of Cthulhu 6.0" or "has access to the Charioteering feat from Slaine". The only difference is that wizards make money when you buy PHBII, but not when you buy Slaine.
Madfox11 08-17-06, 09:39 AM	The AR can provide access to anything D&D related published by WotC* that is not specifically banned by being restricted or NPC Only. The LGCS is incorrect so far as that specific list is concerned. The list of sources though is a good guideline for players requesting special missions for access to feats or prestige classes. Chances of getting the request granted for other sources is about 0. In short, an AR that provides access to a feat from Slaine or Call of Chuthulu (sp?) is an error. An AR that provides access to a feat from PHBII is quite correct, unless of course the item became restricted or NPC Only later on. * Specific exceptions can be made, such as for the regional feats published in the Dragon Magazine, but that falls outside the scope of the Triads or authors (or even the Circle for that matter). Also note that campaign specific material (e.g. warforged, shifters) is also considered restricted. Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
Mattastrophic 08-17-06, 03:25 PM	Now that we have you "on the line," Pieter, a question... Is the content from the PHB2 on the 'invisible' Limited list? Does an AR item that grants access to any one Limited feat/spell/etc extend to the PHB2? What about Hordes of the Abyss, or other sources? If the PHB2 content isn't Limited, then is it Restricted? NPC Only? -Matt
pedr 08-17-06, 06:43 PM	The problem that I see here is the interaction between the statement 'everything not in the LGCS is limited by default' and favours from year 5 which give access to 'any limited item' or similar. In Onnwal, one such favour was later errata'd to give a list of the rules items it was able to unlock. I believe that the circle issued instructions to all triads/metaregional reps to change any live favours which gave access to any limited item. So as far as I know there shouldn't be any of those favours still valid in the game. All favours should give precise information about what rules items they unlock. If that is the case, then there really isn't a problem with 'anything not in the LGCS is limited by default'. It's just code for 'we haven't decided this doesn't fit at all yet, so it's not restricted, but we want to restrict access to it'. If anyone believes they have a favour which allows access to 'any limited item' (or 'any limited spell' or similar) then they are probably mistaken - that favour has probably been errata'd since it was issued. It's almost certainly necessary to check with the issuing triad before taking advantage of it. Once these kind of favours are all gone from the campaign, the situation will be very clear I think: You can take anything on the core list. You will never see a PC with anything on the NPC or Restricted lists, and never see an NPC use anything on the Restricted list. Everything else published by WotC for the generic D&D Campaign or for Greyhawk specifically might be available to you through campaign documentation, which will make it perfectly clear what you have access to.
Madfox11 08-18-06, 02:56 AM	Pedr is right. You will need to ask the Triad that issued the favor to what exactly it provides access now. Also be warned that some of the spells from the Spell Compendium will become restricted... Pieter Sleijpen RPGA Living Greyhawk Circle Member The Splintered Suns
Maesto 08-18-06, 03:48 AM	You're referring to Delay Death, aren't you... *sighs*
Arvagor 08-18-06, 11:50 AM	Delay Death is a core spell...
Maesto 08-19-06, 06:08 PM	I know. Pieter said "will become restricted" ;-)