Permadeath [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Permadeath [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Piuro
02-09-07, 03:22 PM Death in LG is always somthing of a sticky issue with people I play with. The idea that you can only play the game semi-regularly usually (as opposed to a weekly homegame).

In a homegame, when you die, there is often a benevolent NPC willing to help, or the DM will let you make a character of the same (or similar) level to the one you just lost.

With the massive time investment that it takes to get a decent character in LG, it seems like the policy around death needs to be reworked a little, such as being able to take out loans which are paid off of the total adventure cap of each adventure, or give one NPC per mod the ability to raise dead at a discount.

Just bringing it up for discussion, but ive seen character death turn more people off LG than any single element.
ZX670
02-09-07, 03:25 PM Character death should remain permanent if the situation decides it as such. This isn't an MMO or computer game, it's a Living Campaign. If character death was non-permanent when a body was unrecoverable, then the guys we fight in mods would get the same luxury, meaning the story lines would never evolve and there'd be no point in playing this game.
Piuro
02-09-07, 05:08 PM Yes, this isnt an MMO or a computer game, but the fact remains that the ease with which a major time investment is taken away is one of the biggest turn offs for a living game. Level loss, gear loss, everything should remain, just considering we need to work our asses off to get even the most simple gear, its a bit obscene.

Also, as I have already stated, there is almost always a mechanic compensating for the obscene res costs in home games, why take that away from somthing which has a larger time (and in the cases of conventions) money investment.

If my character permadied at this point, I would probably walk away from the RPGA and not look back.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-09-07, 05:29 PM Yes, this isnt an MMO or a computer game, but the fact remains that the ease with which a major time investment is taken away is one of the biggest turn offs for a living game. Level loss, gear loss, everything should remain, just considering we need to work our asses off to get even the most simple gear, its a bit obscene.

Also, as I have already stated, there is almost always a mechanic compensating for the obscene res costs in home games, why take that away from somthing which has a larger time (and in the cases of conventions) money investment.

If my character permadied at this point, I would probably walk away from the RPGA and not look back.

I don't know what you are complaining about...there are so very few situations in which permadeath is likely to occur, on being a TPK with no reprieve written into the mod...And as you reach higher levels, the overcap is usually more than enough to pay for a raise...And many times a PC at the table can do it for you...
Timlagor
02-09-07, 09:53 PM I have never considered playing my character to be "working my ass off" (and having a donkey at the table would be rather odd :P) . I wouldn't consider my time wasted if my character died but 'spent' (and enjoyed as well).

If you start viewing your time as spent instead of "invested" then you might feel better about things.
Donald_Cannith
02-10-07, 01:44 AM well i dont know about you but I kno it is quite annoying permanently being well below the APL of your group. Because one of my characters died, I have had to start over from level one while the APL was at 7( my character was 4th level but inthe course of two modules I got hosed for creativity twice in a row by losing my equipment and dying in two consecutive adventures by Dms writing specifically to hose people) The door to the taxidermy is trapped. how was i supposed to see that coming? It stinksand it stinks never being able to contribute meaningfully to the party effort.
Mortepierre
02-10-07, 04:37 AM Donald, I can certainly sympathize with your feelings. The same thing happened to a friend and it wasn't very fun for him either.

That said, we have to see this in a different light. LG (indeed, ALL Living campaigns) were created so that people would get to play together at conventions, not exclusively at home with always the same group of friends.

If you participate only (or mainly) in home games, then - yes - this situation :censored: because you'll always be "behind" the rest of the team. If you go to conventions, then it does not because you should always be able to find tables playing at your APL.

In short, while I don't like it anymore than you do, I've to recognize that it is a logical rule given what LG is supposed to be.
Timlagor
02-10-07, 09:17 AM If you only play with the same people all the time I can't see any reason you'd want to do it in LG. I play mostly in homegames but we have big group with varying enthusiasm so it works well.

The one big advantage you might get from LG is the pre-published modules but there are plenty of pre-written adventures you can buy (and they constitute an increasing proportion of LG now)
Akhamshyy
02-10-07, 10:22 AM well i dont know about you but I kno it is quite annoying permanently being well below the APL of your group. Because one of my characters died, I have had to start over from level one while the APL was at 7( my character was 4th level but inthe course of two modules I got hosed for creativity twice in a row by losing my equipment and dying in two consecutive adventures by Dms writing specifically to hose people) The door to the taxidermy is trapped. how was i supposed to see that coming? It stinksand it stinks never being able to contribute meaningfully to the party effort.

Was it the DM, your judge at the table; or the adventure's written encounter that hosed you? Traps are like that; rogues, scouts and soon beguilers have thier place. Judges can make mistakes that can screw the player up as well. Either way you should voice your concerns to your triad, let them know how it effects you and your game. That way they can learn what to look out for in the future.

The best thing in LG is your ability to go to a con or find a game and catch up to friends. In a home game you can't make up such shortcomings nearly as easily.
Donald_Cannith
02-10-07, 10:25 AM The reason we do it that way, is fittingly, because alot of our guys liek conventions and because in living greyhawk the campaign doesnt just end abruptly becus our Dm got tired of that game. The trouble is when we aren at conventon the way its shaped up is there are 10 of us in two table and only three of us that are low level withrhe rest of the party easily outclassing us.
We cannot wait for ruins of greyhawk so that we will all finally be on even ground.
Donald_Cannith
02-10-07, 10:30 AM Was it the DM, your judge at the table; or the adventure's written encounter that hosed you? Traps are like that; rogues, scouts and soon beguilers have thier place. Judges can make mistakes that can screw the player up as well. Either way you should voice your concerns to your triad, let them know how it effects you and your game. That way they can learn what to look out for in the future.

The best thing in LG is your ability to go to a con or find a game and catch up to friends. In a home game you can't make up such shortcomings nearly as easily.

Well theres half the problem, in keoland it is not worth your time to play a rogue because 2/3s of enounters are vs. undead so sneak attack is worthless. It is msotly the way the modules were written that not only discouraged going off the beaten path but actually quite punished you for it. And as for the door, my DM i suopose could be to fault for not making it a bigger deal,withthe fact that we've no rogue. But honestly a trap like that in the middle of nowhere had no right being a 100 foot spked pit trap with crushing alls triggered whenu hit the bottm. i survived the fall and the spikes ( i was at 0) but the stupid crushing wall killed me. We have horrible writers who justl ike screwing players in keoland/ sheldomar valley.
Akhamshyy
02-10-07, 11:20 AM Well theres half the problem, in keoland it is not worth your time to play a rogue because 2/3s of enounters are vs. undead so sneak attack is worthless. It is msotly the way the modules were written that not only discouraged going off the beaten path but actually quite punished you for it. And as for the door, my DM i suopose could be to fault for not making it a bigger deal,withthe fact that we've no rogue. But honestly a trap like that in the middle of nowhere had no right being a 100 foot spked pit trap with crushing alls triggered whenu hit the bottm. i survived the fall and the spikes ( i was at 0) but the stupid crushing wall killed me. We have horrible writers who justl ike screwing players in keoland/ sheldomar valley.
What is the name of the mod? What APL was it being run at?
PM me with it. I'd like to see what you're talking about.
The fact that traps are being found now shows some of us keoish writers are tryng to change things. Undead, oozes, and constructs shut down much more than sneak, so they do balance out agianst the other iconics. That doesn't make them any better but your meat-shield can't crit, and the mages spells might fizzle. So they're in the same boat.
I've seen my fair share of keoish rogues, most use their skills to great effect and have strategies to deal with the odd things one finds.
And one last thing; there are no undead in Keoland...
pedr
02-10-07, 11:32 AM What is the name of the mod? What APL was it being run at? Please only answer this openly if it is not a Year 6 or 7 module! What has been posted so far is already spoilers, please don't compound it by naming the module!.
Donald_Cannith
02-10-07, 11:35 AM I snet it to him thoguh I actually forgot the name of the module as i threw them out at the end of the year. It was year 5 i do believe when i lost all of my equipment. and i can only assume it was year five when that dumb trap got me.
Akhamshyy
02-10-07, 11:38 AM Please only answer this openly if it is not a Year 6 or 7 module! What has been posted so far is already spoilers, please don't compound it by naming the module!.

That's why I specifically said to PM me.
Akhamshyy
02-10-07, 11:48 AM Also since it's so akin to PC death, how about item loss as another crap-tacular nigh unrecoverable way to hurt a player.
"OK, you hit the column girl, roll me a fort save."
"... I rolled a 1!"
"Sorry your pretty +2 adamantine greatsword just shattered."
"!!!"
Now that can really hit hard. Your still breathing but unable to keep up with friends in an adventure because of the investment lost to that kind of thing.

I had a guy cry when his dwarf lost his axe to a rust monster.
Japangirl
02-10-07, 12:09 PM Well theres half the problem, in keoland it is not worth your time to play a rogue because 2/3s of enounters are vs. undead so sneak attack is worthless. It is msotly the way the modules were written that not only discouraged going off the beaten path but actually quite punished you for it. And as for the door, my DM i suopose could be to fault for not making it a bigger deal,withthe fact that we've no rogue. But honestly a trap like that in the middle of nowhere had no right being a 100 foot spked pit trap with crushing alls triggered whenu hit the bottm. i survived the fall and the spikes ( i was at 0) but the stupid crushing wall killed me. We have horrible writers who justl ike screwing players in keoland/ sheldomar valley.

Middle of nowhere? Middle of nowhere like in the middle of a long corridor when you were walking someplace you shouldn't have been, or middle of nowhere like crossing a field or walking in a forest randomly? It's a nasty trap, but it's not broken or unfair in any way. Traps are supposed to either soften a party up for an encounter, or outright kill you.

If the trap was in front of a door, then it's to be expected that there was a trap there. And as for Keoland being 2/3 undead, well, I have a combat rogue in the BK which is almost as bad. It is possible to pull it off, you just cry and moan a lot in combats where you can't do much except provide flanks and assist the tank to hit or AC.
Donald_Cannith
02-10-07, 12:34 PM by middle of nowhere I mean it was just an innocuous shopkeeper's door , thats all. And as for the moaning and not having a use, well thep layers here tend to think that you are much better off with an extra power atacker or an extra tank than you are with a rogue in the party at all. obviously this is one instance in which we paid for it.
Piuro
02-10-07, 03:11 PM Its not like all of us have massive conventions we can play at weekly, so its not like we can consistently be at a table that matches our character levels.

Also, some modules are completely broken to all hell, if theres going to be loose guidelines on the kind of things you can do to players as a mod writer, there need to be more loose guidelines on death.

Just yesterday I played a mod at APL 2 in which there was a near-iniscapable array of traps (Which were assembled according to god knows what rules) that regularly brought characters to negatives, and a final combat that had a single monster do over 34 damage.

And that was a good mod, some of them (like Red ****ing Tide) are absolute garbage and have players dropping left and right through stupid situations ("Okay, for this arena fight, you can't use weapons"). Somebody seriously needs to think about lower APLs, and include a built in mechanic for body recovery.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Piuro 02-09-07, 03:22 PM	Death in LG is always somthing of a sticky issue with people I play with. The idea that you can only play the game semi-regularly usually (as opposed to a weekly homegame). In a homegame, when you die, there is often a benevolent NPC willing to help, or the DM will let you make a character of the same (or similar) level to the one you just lost. With the massive time investment that it takes to get a decent character in LG, it seems like the policy around death needs to be reworked a little, such as being able to take out loans which are paid off of the total adventure cap of each adventure, or give one NPC per mod the ability to raise dead at a discount. Just bringing it up for discussion, but ive seen character death turn more people off LG than any single element.
ZX670 02-09-07, 03:25 PM	Character death should remain permanent if the situation decides it as such. This isn't an MMO or computer game, it's a Living Campaign. If character death was non-permanent when a body was unrecoverable, then the guys we fight in mods would get the same luxury, meaning the story lines would never evolve and there'd be no point in playing this game.
Piuro 02-09-07, 05:08 PM	Yes, this isnt an MMO or a computer game, but the fact remains that the ease with which a major time investment is taken away is one of the biggest turn offs for a living game. Level loss, gear loss, everything should remain, just considering we need to work our asses off to get even the most simple gear, its a bit obscene. Also, as I have already stated, there is almost always a mechanic compensating for the obscene res costs in home games, why take that away from somthing which has a larger time (and in the cases of conventions) money investment. If my character permadied at this point, I would probably walk away from the RPGA and not look back.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-09-07, 05:29 PM	Yes, this isnt an MMO or a computer game, but the fact remains that the ease with which a major time investment is taken away is one of the biggest turn offs for a living game. Level loss, gear loss, everything should remain, just considering we need to work our asses off to get even the most simple gear, its a bit obscene. Also, as I have already stated, there is almost always a mechanic compensating for the obscene res costs in home games, why take that away from somthing which has a larger time (and in the cases of conventions) money investment. If my character permadied at this point, I would probably walk away from the RPGA and not look back. I don't know what you are complaining about...there are so very few situations in which permadeath is likely to occur, on being a TPK with no reprieve written into the mod...And as you reach higher levels, the overcap is usually more than enough to pay for a raise...And many times a PC at the table can do it for you...
Timlagor 02-09-07, 09:53 PM	I have never considered playing my character to be "working my ass off" (and having a donkey at the table would be rather odd :P) . I wouldn't consider my time wasted if my character died but 'spent' (and enjoyed as well). If you start viewing your time as spent instead of "invested" then you might feel better about things.
Donald_Cannith 02-10-07, 01:44 AM	well i dont know about you but I kno it is quite annoying permanently being well below the APL of your group. Because one of my characters died, I have had to start over from level one while the APL was at 7( my character was 4th level but inthe course of two modules I got hosed for creativity twice in a row by losing my equipment and dying in two consecutive adventures by Dms writing specifically to hose people) The door to the taxidermy is trapped. how was i supposed to see that coming? It stinksand it stinks never being able to contribute meaningfully to the party effort.
Mortepierre 02-10-07, 04:37 AM	Donald, I can certainly sympathize with your feelings. The same thing happened to a friend and it wasn't very fun for him either. That said, we have to see this in a different light. LG (indeed, ALL Living campaigns) were created so that people would get to play together at conventions, not exclusively at home with always the same group of friends. If you participate only (or mainly) in home games, then - yes - this situation :censored: because you'll always be "behind" the rest of the team. If you go to conventions, then it does not because you should always be able to find tables playing at your APL. In short, while I don't like it anymore than you do, I've to recognize that it is a logical rule given what LG is supposed to be.
Timlagor 02-10-07, 09:17 AM	If you only play with the same people all the time I can't see any reason you'd want to do it in LG. I play mostly in homegames but we have big group with varying enthusiasm so it works well. The one big advantage you might get from LG is the pre-published modules but there are plenty of pre-written adventures you can buy (and they constitute an increasing proportion of LG now)
Akhamshyy 02-10-07, 10:22 AM	well i dont know about you but I kno it is quite annoying permanently being well below the APL of your group. Because one of my characters died, I have had to start over from level one while the APL was at 7( my character was 4th level but inthe course of two modules I got hosed for creativity twice in a row by losing my equipment and dying in two consecutive adventures by Dms writing specifically to hose people) The door to the taxidermy is trapped. how was i supposed to see that coming? It stinksand it stinks never being able to contribute meaningfully to the party effort. Was it the DM, your judge at the table; or the adventure's written encounter that hosed you? Traps are like that; rogues, scouts and soon beguilers have thier place. Judges can make mistakes that can screw the player up as well. Either way you should voice your concerns to your triad, let them know how it effects you and your game. That way they can learn what to look out for in the future. The best thing in LG is your ability to go to a con or find a game and catch up to friends. In a home game you can't make up such shortcomings nearly as easily.
Donald_Cannith 02-10-07, 10:25 AM	The reason we do it that way, is fittingly, because alot of our guys liek conventions and because in living greyhawk the campaign doesnt just end abruptly becus our Dm got tired of that game. The trouble is when we aren at conventon the way its shaped up is there are 10 of us in two table and only three of us that are low level withrhe rest of the party easily outclassing us. We cannot wait for ruins of greyhawk so that we will all finally be on even ground.
Donald_Cannith 02-10-07, 10:30 AM	Was it the DM, your judge at the table; or the adventure's written encounter that hosed you? Traps are like that; rogues, scouts and soon beguilers have thier place. Judges can make mistakes that can screw the player up as well. Either way you should voice your concerns to your triad, let them know how it effects you and your game. That way they can learn what to look out for in the future. The best thing in LG is your ability to go to a con or find a game and catch up to friends. In a home game you can't make up such shortcomings nearly as easily. Well theres half the problem, in keoland it is not worth your time to play a rogue because 2/3s of enounters are vs. undead so sneak attack is worthless. It is msotly the way the modules were written that not only discouraged going off the beaten path but actually quite punished you for it. And as for the door, my DM i suopose could be to fault for not making it a bigger deal,withthe fact that we've no rogue. But honestly a trap like that in the middle of nowhere had no right being a 100 foot spked pit trap with crushing alls triggered whenu hit the bottm. i survived the fall and the spikes ( i was at 0) but the stupid crushing wall killed me. We have horrible writers who justl ike screwing players in keoland/ sheldomar valley.
Akhamshyy 02-10-07, 11:20 AM	Well theres half the problem, in keoland it is not worth your time to play a rogue because 2/3s of enounters are vs. undead so sneak attack is worthless. It is msotly the way the modules were written that not only discouraged going off the beaten path but actually quite punished you for it. And as for the door, my DM i suopose could be to fault for not making it a bigger deal,withthe fact that we've no rogue. But honestly a trap like that in the middle of nowhere had no right being a 100 foot spked pit trap with crushing alls triggered whenu hit the bottm. i survived the fall and the spikes ( i was at 0) but the stupid crushing wall killed me. We have horrible writers who justl ike screwing players in keoland/ sheldomar valley. What is the name of the mod? What APL was it being run at? PM me with it. I'd like to see what you're talking about. The fact that traps are being found now shows some of us keoish writers are tryng to change things. Undead, oozes, and constructs shut down much more than sneak, so they do balance out agianst the other iconics. That doesn't make them any better but your meat-shield can't crit, and the mages spells might fizzle. So they're in the same boat. I've seen my fair share of keoish rogues, most use their skills to great effect and have strategies to deal with the odd things one finds. And one last thing; there are no undead in Keoland...
pedr 02-10-07, 11:32 AM	What is the name of the mod? What APL was it being run at? Please only answer this openly if it is not a Year 6 or 7 module! What has been posted so far is already spoilers, please don't compound it by naming the module!.
Donald_Cannith 02-10-07, 11:35 AM	I snet it to him thoguh I actually forgot the name of the module as i threw them out at the end of the year. It was year 5 i do believe when i lost all of my equipment. and i can only assume it was year five when that dumb trap got me.
Akhamshyy 02-10-07, 11:38 AM	Please only answer this openly if it is not a Year 6 or 7 module! What has been posted so far is already spoilers, please don't compound it by naming the module!. That's why I specifically said to PM me.
Akhamshyy 02-10-07, 11:48 AM	Also since it's so akin to PC death, how about item loss as another crap-tacular nigh unrecoverable way to hurt a player. "OK, you hit the column girl, roll me a fort save." "... I rolled a 1!" "Sorry your pretty +2 adamantine greatsword just shattered." "!!!" Now that can really hit hard. Your still breathing but unable to keep up with friends in an adventure because of the investment lost to that kind of thing. I had a guy cry when his dwarf lost his axe to a rust monster.
Japangirl 02-10-07, 12:09 PM	Well theres half the problem, in keoland it is not worth your time to play a rogue because 2/3s of enounters are vs. undead so sneak attack is worthless. It is msotly the way the modules were written that not only discouraged going off the beaten path but actually quite punished you for it. And as for the door, my DM i suopose could be to fault for not making it a bigger deal,withthe fact that we've no rogue. But honestly a trap like that in the middle of nowhere had no right being a 100 foot spked pit trap with crushing alls triggered whenu hit the bottm. i survived the fall and the spikes ( i was at 0) but the stupid crushing wall killed me. We have horrible writers who justl ike screwing players in keoland/ sheldomar valley. Middle of nowhere? Middle of nowhere like in the middle of a long corridor when you were walking someplace you shouldn't have been, or middle of nowhere like crossing a field or walking in a forest randomly? It's a nasty trap, but it's not broken or unfair in any way. Traps are supposed to either soften a party up for an encounter, or outright kill you. If the trap was in front of a door, then it's to be expected that there was a trap there. And as for Keoland being 2/3 undead, well, I have a combat rogue in the BK which is almost as bad. It is possible to pull it off, you just cry and moan a lot in combats where you can't do much except provide flanks and assist the tank to hit or AC.
Donald_Cannith 02-10-07, 12:34 PM	by middle of nowhere I mean it was just an innocuous shopkeeper's door , thats all. And as for the moaning and not having a use, well thep layers here tend to think that you are much better off with an extra power atacker or an extra tank than you are with a rogue in the party at all. obviously this is one instance in which we paid for it.
Piuro 02-10-07, 03:11 PM	Its not like all of us have massive conventions we can play at weekly, so its not like we can consistently be at a table that matches our character levels. Also, some modules are completely broken to all hell, if theres going to be loose guidelines on the kind of things you can do to players as a mod writer, there need to be more loose guidelines on death. Just yesterday I played a mod at APL 2 in which there was a near-iniscapable array of traps (Which were assembled according to god knows what rules) that regularly brought characters to negatives, and a final combat that had a single monster do over 34 damage. And that was a good mod, some of them (like Red ****ing Tide) are absolute garbage and have players dropping left and right through stupid situations ("Okay, for this arena fight, you can't use weapons"). Somebody seriously needs to think about lower APLs, and include a built in mechanic for body recovery.