Playing Dead...legitimate in LG? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Playing Dead...legitimate in LG? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jay_Ibero_911
02-19-07, 10:23 PM With the appearance of an actual RAW mechanic for it in the Combat Panache tactical feat from PHB2, I was wondering what people were doing to attempt this in the past. To me, the most reasonable thing for somewhat without the feat to do would be for them to ready an action to play dead the next time they take damage, and as the feat suggests it would be bluff vs. sense motive. And even then, I think the bluff would take some penalties because it was clear you were getting ready to do something, so maybe a -2 to your bluff, because it might also be possible that they did knock you out before you could whatever you may have been readying for. Without readying an action, it would be almost impossible to pull off because of the obvious delay between when you took damage and when you actually fell. I do like how the feat tidies up the previously undefined by RAW mechanic for playing dead.
ShinAkuma2
02-19-07, 11:29 PM There's not necessarily a delay. In the round, everything happens more or less at once. It's the like the "delay" between the gun firing and the bullet hitting its target, or the skin tearing and the blood starting to flow out: It's almost unnoticable.

Anyway, you can always act as if you were at 0, and passed out from doing something "strenuous". There's no need to wait for an opponent's action in the case.
Fleetfang
02-20-07, 10:57 AM Although I've had PHB2 for at least a couple of months, I haven't really had time to digest it in full.
With taht said, I'm glad to hear that there are rules for 'playing dead' since it was a glaring void in the rules that I thought should have been patched with any of the Complete books. I'm disappointed that it's only usable with a feat (from what I gather from your post).

In the past I simply didn't allow it, with the idea that if the game designers had intended for Bluff to be used that way, then they had ample opportunities to put it into any of the Complete Books under Alternate Skill Uses.

If I had someone who was very eager to play possum, I allowed a bluff check opposed by an augmented sense motive check (add BAB as per the feinting in combat rules, modified if non-humanoid).

But honestly, even this created problems.

I was running a game once with a crazy bluffing rogue PC in the party. They were jumped by chokers, who proceeded to grapple the heck out of the weak rogue. I allowed the PC to play dead, since he didn't have a prayer of escaping from it. The choker dropped him and proceeded to pay more attention to his allies. Unfortunately for the rogue, he wasn't content to continue to play dead. He saw a sneak attack opportunity and took it. That got the choker's attention again, and the rogue was once again grappled and the choker again began constricting. This time, the rogue drops unconscious for real, but chokers aren't stupid, and this guy wasn't going to fall for the same trick twice.
I really didn't have any choice but to have the choker strangle him well beyond death, just to be sure.

It really wasn't the rogue's best day ever. :)
Mattastrophic
02-20-07, 02:24 PM Well, if you look at Bluff ITSELF, enough information is there to resolve playing dead. It's Bluff vs. Sense Motive, with the Sense Motive check modified by:

"Does my bad guy want to believe he fell down?" : -5
"He fell down, that makes sense." : +0
"No way he could've fallen down! / I'd be taking a risk if I'm wrong..." : +5
"That can't be right! / My life is on the line here..." : +10
"I barely breathed on him and he fell down!" : +20

-Matt
MatteBlack
02-20-07, 06:27 PM Basically, all the rules needed were in the game. The problem was that you needed an action to pull it off which was not how the players wanted it to work. Delay actions or whatever worked fine with the rule system as an opportunity to bluff your death.

I generally found it was a good way to get yourself double-tapped. First time you die, they will assume you are down and the next time you drop they are sure to finish the job.
Hand_OF_Mystra
02-21-07, 08:09 AM I don't see what is so hard about this. It is a free action to fall over. I have always been allowed to fall over. Then on your next, your action is the bluff.
I has saved me several times
solbergb
02-21-07, 09:55 AM Free actions can only be done on your turn.

The only exceptions to this are where the rules explicitly state it can happen. To my knowledge this is limited to the following.

1. Talking
2. AOO's and actions associated with the single attack action (such as followup for improved trip or maintaining the hold and moving in for grapple)
3. Immediate action spells and effects

You can't, for example, rage when it is not your turn. Nor can you drop prone, drop an item etc unless foced to by an enemy. This is the problem with attempts to play dead. The timing is wrong.
copper_wyrmling
02-21-07, 11:12 PM Free actions can only be done on your turn.

The only exceptions to this are where the rules explicitly state it can happen. To my knowledge this is limited to the following.

1. Talking
2. AOO's and actions associated with the single attack action (such as followup for improved trip or maintaining the hold and moving in for grapple)
3. Immediate action spells and effects

You can't, for example, rage when it is not your turn. Nor can you drop prone, drop an item etc unless foced to by an enemy. This is the problem with attempts to play dead. The timing is wrong.

Agreed. I have seen judges allow it, on occasion, usually with some reasoning along the lines of, "You have 40 HP and just took 40 damage, if you'd taken 41 you would fall prone immediately, so if you'd rather collapse than stay on your feet and be staggered, I'll let you..." That does fall under "softballing", though, it's not supported anywhere in the rules (most of the time when I've seen it happen, it's been a low-level character who was playing up to make a table legal and who through no fault of their own ended up as a target).
solbergb
02-22-07, 10:37 AM Yeah, that kind of ruling could fall under "not well modeled by the rules".

I don't do that when judging, but it's close enough to legal that I keep my mouth shut when others do it while judging unless the Judge asks what the rules are (on say, taking free actions out of your turn)
Mommy was an Orc
02-22-07, 11:33 AM 1. Talking
2. AOO's and actions associated with the single attack action (such as followup for improved trip or maintaining the hold and moving in for grapple)
3. Immediate action spells and effects

You can't, for example, rage when it is not your turn. Nor can you drop prone, drop an item etc unless foced to by an enemy. This is the problem with attempts to play dead. The timing is wrong.

Technically speaking, upon being knocked unconscious or even when you're killed, you don't fall down or are made prone. There's actions that specifically say that you fall to the ground(certain ability damage/drain and being paralyzed), so by the RAW, you don't with unconscious/helpless. And being unconcious/dead/helpless doesn't make you paralyzed.

Try pulling that one in a game, though - obvious spirit of the rules.

I'd consider it 'Not an Action' to choose to stay standing after being hit for a lot of damage. It isn't that you're choosing to drop prone, it is that you're not choosing to try to remain standing. The real problem for the manuever, is that until your turn, you don't actually get to make the bluff check as that is an action.
evilaustintom
02-22-07, 11:35 AM It is just nice to finally have an in-game way to play dead without different DMs fudging this or making different rulings from table to table ("Well, you can't play dead if it's not your turn in the round yet"). At least with this feat, it is in black and white - plus it even points out that foes will be flat-footed when you get up after playing dead. You can even make a sneak attacked against fooled foes.

I really like this feat - particularly for a 'face' character.

Tom Thowe
solbergb
02-22-07, 01:15 PM Yeah...some feats really remove the grey for a character and are worth it, even when the feat might not be strictly needed all of the time.

If playing dead is something you want to do a lot, having a feat that gives the Judge mechanics for it is fantastic, especially if it is a tactical feat that gives you other goodies too.

It's kind of like what I do with my sorcerer. I try a lot of weird things with her spells, but if it turns out to be too complex at the table to explain or runs into too much variation, I just pick a spell later that is closer to what I had in mind, and work out a way it can be an evolution of her magic, with the earlier approach being a "failed" approach. This can sometimes end up much more powerful mechanically than my original approach, especially if I end up swapping out the failed spell and thus don't spend resources on it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 02-19-07, 10:23 PM	With the appearance of an actual RAW mechanic for it in the Combat Panache tactical feat from PHB2, I was wondering what people were doing to attempt this in the past. To me, the most reasonable thing for somewhat without the feat to do would be for them to ready an action to play dead the next time they take damage, and as the feat suggests it would be bluff vs. sense motive. And even then, I think the bluff would take some penalties because it was clear you were getting ready to do something, so maybe a -2 to your bluff, because it might also be possible that they did knock you out before you could whatever you may have been readying for. Without readying an action, it would be almost impossible to pull off because of the obvious delay between when you took damage and when you actually fell. I do like how the feat tidies up the previously undefined by RAW mechanic for playing dead.
ShinAkuma2 02-19-07, 11:29 PM	There's not necessarily a delay. In the round, everything happens more or less at once. It's the like the "delay" between the gun firing and the bullet hitting its target, or the skin tearing and the blood starting to flow out: It's almost unnoticable. Anyway, you can always act as if you were at 0, and passed out from doing something "strenuous". There's no need to wait for an opponent's action in the case.
Fleetfang 02-20-07, 10:57 AM	Although I've had PHB2 for at least a couple of months, I haven't really had time to digest it in full. With taht said, I'm glad to hear that there are rules for 'playing dead' since it was a glaring void in the rules that I thought should have been patched with any of the Complete books. I'm disappointed that it's only usable with a feat (from what I gather from your post). In the past I simply didn't allow it, with the idea that if the game designers had intended for Bluff to be used that way, then they had ample opportunities to put it into any of the Complete Books under Alternate Skill Uses. If I had someone who was very eager to play possum, I allowed a bluff check opposed by an augmented sense motive check (add BAB as per the feinting in combat rules, modified if non-humanoid). But honestly, even this created problems. I was running a game once with a crazy bluffing rogue PC in the party. They were jumped by chokers, who proceeded to grapple the heck out of the weak rogue. I allowed the PC to play dead, since he didn't have a prayer of escaping from it. The choker dropped him and proceeded to pay more attention to his allies. Unfortunately for the rogue, he wasn't content to continue to play dead. He saw a sneak attack opportunity and took it. That got the choker's attention again, and the rogue was once again grappled and the choker again began constricting. This time, the rogue drops unconscious for real, but chokers aren't stupid, and this guy wasn't going to fall for the same trick twice. I really didn't have any choice but to have the choker strangle him well beyond death, just to be sure. It really wasn't the rogue's best day ever. :)
Mattastrophic 02-20-07, 02:24 PM	Well, if you look at Bluff ITSELF, enough information is there to resolve playing dead. It's Bluff vs. Sense Motive, with the Sense Motive check modified by: "Does my bad guy want to believe he fell down?" : -5 "He fell down, that makes sense." : +0 "No way he could've fallen down! / I'd be taking a risk if I'm wrong..." : +5 "That can't be right! / My life is on the line here..." : +10 "I barely breathed on him and he fell down!" : +20 -Matt
MatteBlack 02-20-07, 06:27 PM	Basically, all the rules needed were in the game. The problem was that you needed an action to pull it off which was not how the players wanted it to work. Delay actions or whatever worked fine with the rule system as an opportunity to bluff your death. I generally found it was a good way to get yourself double-tapped. First time you die, they will assume you are down and the next time you drop they are sure to finish the job.
Hand_OF_Mystra 02-21-07, 08:09 AM	I don't see what is so hard about this. It is a free action to fall over. I have always been allowed to fall over. Then on your next, your action is the bluff. I has saved me several times
solbergb 02-21-07, 09:55 AM	Free actions can only be done on your turn. The only exceptions to this are where the rules explicitly state it can happen. To my knowledge this is limited to the following. 1. Talking 2. AOO's and actions associated with the single attack action (such as followup for improved trip or maintaining the hold and moving in for grapple) 3. Immediate action spells and effects You can't, for example, rage when it is not your turn. Nor can you drop prone, drop an item etc unless foced to by an enemy. This is the problem with attempts to play dead. The timing is wrong.
copper_wyrmling 02-21-07, 11:12 PM	Free actions can only be done on your turn. The only exceptions to this are where the rules explicitly state it can happen. To my knowledge this is limited to the following. 1. Talking 2. AOO's and actions associated with the single attack action (such as followup for improved trip or maintaining the hold and moving in for grapple) 3. Immediate action spells and effects You can't, for example, rage when it is not your turn. Nor can you drop prone, drop an item etc unless foced to by an enemy. This is the problem with attempts to play dead. The timing is wrong. Agreed. I have seen judges allow it, on occasion, usually with some reasoning along the lines of, "You have 40 HP and just took 40 damage, if you'd taken 41 you would fall prone immediately, so if you'd rather collapse than stay on your feet and be staggered, I'll let you..." That does fall under "softballing", though, it's not supported anywhere in the rules (most of the time when I've seen it happen, it's been a low-level character who was playing up to make a table legal and who through no fault of their own ended up as a target).
solbergb 02-22-07, 10:37 AM	Yeah, that kind of ruling could fall under "not well modeled by the rules". I don't do that when judging, but it's close enough to legal that I keep my mouth shut when others do it while judging unless the Judge asks what the rules are (on say, taking free actions out of your turn)
Mommy was an Orc 02-22-07, 11:33 AM	1. Talking 2. AOO's and actions associated with the single attack action (such as followup for improved trip or maintaining the hold and moving in for grapple) 3. Immediate action spells and effects You can't, for example, rage when it is not your turn. Nor can you drop prone, drop an item etc unless foced to by an enemy. This is the problem with attempts to play dead. The timing is wrong. Technically speaking, upon being knocked unconscious or even when you're killed, you don't fall down or are made prone. There's actions that specifically say that you fall to the ground(certain ability damage/drain and being paralyzed), so by the RAW, you don't with unconscious/helpless. And being unconcious/dead/helpless doesn't make you paralyzed. Try pulling that one in a game, though - obvious spirit of the rules. I'd consider it 'Not an Action' to choose to stay standing after being hit for a lot of damage. It isn't that you're choosing to drop prone, it is that you're not choosing to try to remain standing. The real problem for the manuever, is that until your turn, you don't actually get to make the bluff check as that is an action.
evilaustintom 02-22-07, 11:35 AM	It is just nice to finally have an in-game way to play dead without different DMs fudging this or making different rulings from table to table ("Well, you can't play dead if it's not your turn in the round yet"). At least with this feat, it is in black and white - plus it even points out that foes will be flat-footed when you get up after playing dead. You can even make a sneak attacked against fooled foes. I really like this feat - particularly for a 'face' character. Tom Thowe
solbergb 02-22-07, 01:15 PM	Yeah...some feats really remove the grey for a character and are worth it, even when the feat might not be strictly needed all of the time. If playing dead is something you want to do a lot, having a feat that gives the Judge mechanics for it is fantastic, especially if it is a tactical feat that gives you other goodies too. It's kind of like what I do with my sorcerer. I try a lot of weird things with her spells, but if it turns out to be too complex at the table to explain or runs into too much variation, I just pick a spell later that is closer to what I had in mind, and work out a way it can be an evolution of her magic, with the earlier approach being a "failed" approach. This can sometimes end up much more powerful mechanically than my original approach, especially if I end up swapping out the failed spell and thus don't spend resources on it.