Playing Down [Archive] - Wizards Community

Playing Down [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
trollbill
07-26-06, 04:39 PM I know there is a rule regarding playing down (playing a adventure at an APL X levels below your character level) that requires you to take half gold and XP, but no matter how many times I scan the LGCS I can't seem to find it. Can someone point me to the page number its on?
Japangirl
07-26-06, 05:27 PM Page 13 says you can't play adventures when you are four or more levels above APL.

I don't see the place where it talks about playing up, or what happens when you are three levels higher than APL.
pedr
07-26-06, 06:36 PM Actually ... I'm convinced this must have been a rule, as so many people think it is, but what page 13 of the LGCS actually says is this:

You may not play an adventure with a character who is more than four levels above the maximum APL that the adventure accommodates.

So if the module has APLs 2-8, then a 12th or higher level PC cannot play it. Max APL 10, 14th level characters can't play it. Obviously anyone can play modules which top out at APL 12.

But there is no rule which means that you can't have a table of levels 1, 1, 1, 8 (APL 2.75) playing at APL 2.

The level 8 character would receive half gold and half XP. This rule isn't contained in the LGCS, but instead in the boilerplate text of each module. The correction to the boilerplate text contained in LGCS 4.2 was removed in the 596 version, so the boilerplate text now takes effect as written: if you are more than three levels above or below the APL you are playing at receive half gold and half xp.

You could also have a table of levels 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 1 (APL 6.83 + 1 for 6 players = 7.83) playing at APL 8. The level 1 character would receive half gold and half xp.

Finally, if the table APL is higher than the maximum APL offered by the module, but no player is more than three levels above that maximum, you can play at the maximum APL of the module. So if the module's top APL is APL 10, six players of level 12 can play at APL 10 even though they are an APL 13 table.

I know that's complicated (isn't LG great??) .... but I hope it helped. If I made any mistakes, I'm sure someone will come along and correct me!
kjenks
07-27-06, 08:17 AM There was a rule about this in the previous LGCS, but LGCS 596CY removed that rule. Now, you just go by what the module says. The "boilerplate" text in the front of each module tells you how to handle playing up/down. For most normal scenarios these days, you get half xp and half gp for playing more than two away from APL, up or down. Interactives have different rules, usually that you get xp and gp at an APL equal to your level (or level-1 if level is odd), no matter what APL you played the interactive at.

But there are exceptions, so you must ask the DM to read how it works in each scenario.

Generally, everybody at the table has less fun if you play way up or way down. If you play way up, you don't contribute much and the other players may feel compelled to save your sorry butt when you get in over your head. If you play way down, you dominate the combats and reduce the amount of monster-smacking fun everybody else has. So, for the love of fun, don't make a habit of playing up or down. Try to avoid it.
trollbill
07-27-06, 09:52 AM Okay. I feel better now. I'm not blind. It really wasn't in the LGCS.

Coincidentally, I will be running my first LG module in a couple of weeks and just got a copy of it last night. Sure enough, the info was in the beginning of the mod. Now if the writer had just remembered to put in the Experience and Treasure Awards summery instead of leaving it as the generic boiler-plate, I'd be all set. :rolleyes:
blood_kite
07-27-06, 12:58 PM I remember hearing that if you play down you earn 1/2 XP and Full gold now, but still get 1/2 & 1/2 if you play up. Isn't that what the new boilerplates say? I also remember hearing that some modules are STILL being printed with boilerplates that are 2-3 years old and out of date.
pedr
07-27-06, 02:08 PM In last year's LGCS there was a 'correction' to the boilerplate text relating to APLs and gp/xp awards. That 'correction' has now been removed so from March 14th 2006, apply the rule contained in the module itself.

Apart from some Onnwal mini-mods I have copies of, every year 5 or 6 module I have seen has the same boilerplate text: "If a player character is three character levels or more either higher or lower than the APL at which the adventure is being played, that character receives only one-half of the experience points and gold for the adventure."

As far as I can ascertain, that's the rule. It's what it says, there's nothing which overrides it, and it appears to have been confirmed by the circle on these boards. It's how we're playing it in our group, at least.
kjenks
07-27-06, 02:13 PM I remember hearing that if you play down you earn 1/2 XP and Full gold now, but still get 1/2 & 1/2 if you play up. Isn't that what the new boilerplates say?

Here's the text from COR6-01:
===
APL also affects the amount of experience and gold a
PC can gain at the end of the adventure. If a player
character is three character levels or more either higher
or lower than the APL at which this adventure is being
played, that character receives only one-half of the
experience points and gold for the adventure. This
simulates the fact that either the PC was not challenged
as much as normal or relied on help by higher-level
characters to reach the objectives.

Furthermore, a PC who is four or more levels higher
than the highest APL supported by the adventure may
not play the adventure.
===

So it's now half xp and half gp, up or down.

Here's the similar text from COR4-01:
===
APL also affects the amount of experience you may gain
at the end of the adventure. If your character is three
character levels or more either higher or lower than the
APL this adventure is being played at, that character will
receive only half of the experience points awardedfor the
adventure. This simulates the fact that either your
character was not as challenged as normal, or relied on
help by higher-level characters to reach the objectives.
===

So that was half xp, up or down.
Iswald
07-28-06, 04:06 AM I remember hearing that if you play down you earn 1/2 XP and Full gold now, but still get 1/2 & 1/2 if you play up. Isn't that what the new boilerplates say? I also remember hearing that some modules are STILL being printed with boilerplates that are 2-3 years old and out of date.

I believe it was stated several times by the circle that this was correct. Just because mods are still using outdated boilerplates, doesn't mean you should be reducing the gold of characters who are playing down.
pedr
07-28-06, 05:46 AM Argh!

These two threads: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=613543, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=619142 discuss this.

What was stated several times previously by the circle applied to rules which changed with the LGCS 596, as explained above.

The rules for the effect of character level and APL are in the boilerplate text as quoted above.

Now, as I commented before, this is a very odd way to make such a change, but, as Stephen Conforti confirmed in those threads, such a change was made. Regardless of how you played last year, and regardless of what you remember being told, as far as I know you get half gold and half xp when you are more than three levels above or below the APL you are playing at.

This still doesn't affect the other question of the OP though: you can play any module at any APL the table works out at so long as you aren't more than four levels above the maximum APL supported by the module.
clannagh
08-04-06, 01:00 AM I suspect the "4 levels above maximum" is a case of very poor wording (no offence to ever wrote it).

Logically what was probably meant was ...

"Characters can not play an adventure if they are more than 4 levels above the APL .. and hence cannot play the adventure AT ALL if they are 4 levels above the maximum APL available"

HOWEVER .. taken literally "as worded" you can play at any APL providing you are within four of the maximum APL for the adventure. This leads to the ludicrous situation of a level 16 being able to play at APL2 so long as the adventure supports an APL12.
Lomiat
08-04-06, 09:49 AM I suspect the "4 levels above maximum" is a case of very poor wording (no offence to ever wrote it).

Logically what was probably meant was ...

"Characters can not play an adventure if they are more than 4 levels above the APL .. and hence cannot play the adventure AT ALL if they are 4 levels above the maximum APL available"

HOWEVER .. taken literally "as worded" you can play at any APL providing you are within four of the maximum APL for the adventure. This leads to the ludicrous situation of a level 16 being able to play at APL2 so long as the adventure supports an APL12.

Actually, it's meant to be taken literally.

Taken literally (correctly), a 16th-level character is retired. A 15th-level character playing with four 1st-level characters = 19 character levels. Divided by 5 = 3.8. Rounds up to 4. Therefore, a 15th-level character trying to play as low as possible can only hit APL 4, but why that 15th level player would want to cap out at 337 XP and 300 GP, while the 1st-level players all take half, too, is beyond me.

It is, in fact, such a ludicrous proposition that it's unlikely to happen. That said, if someone chose to play that way (and the module supported APL 12), I guess we'd just have to admit that the rules allowed it.
JayParker
08-04-06, 01:57 PM Now if the writer had just remembered to put in the Experience and Treasure Awards summery instead of leaving it as the generic boiler-plate, I'd be all set. :rolleyes:

Aren't you able to just add it all up yourself whether there's a "summery" or not? It's really not that hard to figure out.
clannagh
08-04-06, 10:53 PM It is, in fact, such a ludicrous proposition that it's unlikely to happen. That said, if someone chose to play that way (and the module supported APL 12), I guess we'd just have to admit that the rules allowed it.

Not that ludicrous .. a lot of modules have rewards (including in rare cases stat increases) that are totally unrelated to the APL played.
Iswald
08-04-06, 11:47 PM Not that ludicrous .. a lot of modules have rewards (including in rare cases stat increases) that are totally unrelated to the APL played.

That would imply that the player has information that they aren't supposed to. Not implausible, but against the rules.
JohnduBois
08-05-06, 01:13 AM I can think of a number of ways this situation could happen without players breaking the rules.

1. Only one table of a slot goes off at a convention or GD, and the person only brought his 15th level character.
2. 15th level character has played the other mods in the series.
3. Mod's blurb says, "characters that do X should really play this mod", and the 15th is the only character that fits the condition - most common with meta-orgs.

There are probably more, but I'm tired and this is all I could spontaneously come up with.
Mommy was an Orc
08-06-06, 12:33 PM Generally, everybody at the table has less fun if you play way up or way down. If you play way up, you don't contribute much and the other players may feel compelled to save your sorry butt when you get in over your head. If you play way down, you dominate the combats and reduce the amount of monster-smacking fun everybody else has. So, for the love of fun, don't make a habit of playing up or down. Try to avoid it.

Not to mention, it isn't unknown for that high level character to get affected by Dominate Person or similar spells. In a balanced party, the character usually can't do enough damage before someone can touch them with a Protection from Evil. When the Warmage 8 drops a DC 18 Empowered Fireball on the APL 4 party, doing an average of 42 hp of damage...odds are most of the party is dead or dying except maybe the really high hit point characters or those with evasion who managed to save.

As most of the people capable of casting Protection from Evil are likely dead or dying(bad reflex saves for most of them), TPK is just around the corner.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
trollbill 07-26-06, 04:39 PM	I know there is a rule regarding playing down (playing a adventure at an APL X levels below your character level) that requires you to take half gold and XP, but no matter how many times I scan the LGCS I can't seem to find it. Can someone point me to the page number its on?
Japangirl 07-26-06, 05:27 PM	Page 13 says you can't play adventures when you are four or more levels above APL. I don't see the place where it talks about playing up, or what happens when you are three levels higher than APL.
pedr 07-26-06, 06:36 PM	Actually ... I'm convinced this must have been a rule, as so many people think it is, but what page 13 of the LGCS actually says is this: You may not play an adventure with a character who is more than four levels above the maximum APL that the adventure accommodates. So if the module has APLs 2-8, then a 12th or higher level PC cannot play it. Max APL 10, 14th level characters can't play it. Obviously anyone can play modules which top out at APL 12. But there is no rule which means that you can't have a table of levels 1, 1, 1, 8 (APL 2.75) playing at APL 2. The level 8 character would receive half gold and half XP. This rule isn't contained in the LGCS, but instead in the boilerplate text of each module. The correction to the boilerplate text contained in LGCS 4.2 was removed in the 596 version, so the boilerplate text now takes effect as written: if you are more than three levels above or below the APL you are playing at receive half gold and half xp. You could also have a table of levels 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 1 (APL 6.83 + 1 for 6 players = 7.83) playing at APL 8. The level 1 character would receive half gold and half xp. Finally, if the table APL is higher than the maximum APL offered by the module, but no player is more than three levels above that maximum, you can play at the maximum APL of the module. So if the module's top APL is APL 10, six players of level 12 can play at APL 10 even though they are an APL 13 table. I know that's complicated (isn't LG great??) .... but I hope it helped. If I made any mistakes, I'm sure someone will come along and correct me!
kjenks 07-27-06, 08:17 AM	There was a rule about this in the previous LGCS, but LGCS 596CY removed that rule. Now, you just go by what the module says. The "boilerplate" text in the front of each module tells you how to handle playing up/down. For most normal scenarios these days, you get half xp and half gp for playing more than two away from APL, up or down. Interactives have different rules, usually that you get xp and gp at an APL equal to your level (or level-1 if level is odd), no matter what APL you played the interactive at. But there are exceptions, so you must ask the DM to read how it works in each scenario. Generally, everybody at the table has less fun if you play way up or way down. If you play way up, you don't contribute much and the other players may feel compelled to save your sorry butt when you get in over your head. If you play way down, you dominate the combats and reduce the amount of monster-smacking fun everybody else has. So, for the love of fun, don't make a habit of playing up or down. Try to avoid it.
trollbill 07-27-06, 09:52 AM	Okay. I feel better now. I'm not blind. It really wasn't in the LGCS. Coincidentally, I will be running my first LG module in a couple of weeks and just got a copy of it last night. Sure enough, the info was in the beginning of the mod. Now if the writer had just remembered to put in the Experience and Treasure Awards summery instead of leaving it as the generic boiler-plate, I'd be all set. :rolleyes:
blood_kite 07-27-06, 12:58 PM	I remember hearing that if you play down you earn 1/2 XP and Full gold now, but still get 1/2 & 1/2 if you play up. Isn't that what the new boilerplates say? I also remember hearing that some modules are STILL being printed with boilerplates that are 2-3 years old and out of date.
pedr 07-27-06, 02:08 PM	In last year's LGCS there was a 'correction' to the boilerplate text relating to APLs and gp/xp awards. That 'correction' has now been removed so from March 14th 2006, apply the rule contained in the module itself. Apart from some Onnwal mini-mods I have copies of, every year 5 or 6 module I have seen has the same boilerplate text: "If a player character is three character levels or more either higher or lower than the APL at which the adventure is being played, that character receives only one-half of the experience points and gold for the adventure." As far as I can ascertain, that's the rule. It's what it says, there's nothing which overrides it, and it appears to have been confirmed by the circle on these boards. It's how we're playing it in our group, at least.
kjenks 07-27-06, 02:13 PM	I remember hearing that if you play down you earn 1/2 XP and Full gold now, but still get 1/2 & 1/2 if you play up. Isn't that what the new boilerplates say? Here's the text from COR6-01: === APL also affects the amount of experience and gold a PC can gain at the end of the adventure. If a player character is three character levels or more either higher or lower than the APL at which this adventure is being played, that character receives only one-half of the experience points and gold for the adventure. This simulates the fact that either the PC was not challenged as much as normal or relied on help by higher-level characters to reach the objectives. Furthermore, a PC who is four or more levels higher than the highest APL supported by the adventure may not play the adventure. === So it's now half xp and half gp, up or down. Here's the similar text from COR4-01: === APL also affects the amount of experience you may gain at the end of the adventure. If your character is three character levels or more either higher or lower than the APL this adventure is being played at, that character will receive only half of the experience points awardedfor the adventure. This simulates the fact that either your character was not as challenged as normal, or relied on help by higher-level characters to reach the objectives. === So that was half xp, up or down.
Iswald 07-28-06, 04:06 AM	I remember hearing that if you play down you earn 1/2 XP and Full gold now, but still get 1/2 & 1/2 if you play up. Isn't that what the new boilerplates say? I also remember hearing that some modules are STILL being printed with boilerplates that are 2-3 years old and out of date. I believe it was stated several times by the circle that this was correct. Just because mods are still using outdated boilerplates, doesn't mean you should be reducing the gold of characters who are playing down.
pedr 07-28-06, 05:46 AM	Argh! These two threads: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=613543, http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=619142 discuss this. What was stated several times previously by the circle applied to rules which changed with the LGCS 596, as explained above. The rules for the effect of character level and APL are in the boilerplate text as quoted above. Now, as I commented before, this is a very odd way to make such a change, but, as Stephen Conforti confirmed in those threads, such a change was made. Regardless of how you played last year, and regardless of what you remember being told, as far as I know you get half gold and half xp when you are more than three levels above or below the APL you are playing at. This still doesn't affect the other question of the OP though: you can play any module at any APL the table works out at so long as you aren't more than four levels above the maximum APL supported by the module.
clannagh 08-04-06, 01:00 AM	I suspect the "4 levels above maximum" is a case of very poor wording (no offence to ever wrote it). Logically what was probably meant was ... "Characters can not play an adventure if they are more than 4 levels above the APL .. and hence cannot play the adventure AT ALL if they are 4 levels above the maximum APL available" HOWEVER .. taken literally "as worded" you can play at any APL providing you are within four of the maximum APL for the adventure. This leads to the ludicrous situation of a level 16 being able to play at APL2 so long as the adventure supports an APL12.
Lomiat 08-04-06, 09:49 AM	I suspect the "4 levels above maximum" is a case of very poor wording (no offence to ever wrote it). Logically what was probably meant was ... "Characters can not play an adventure if they are more than 4 levels above the APL .. and hence cannot play the adventure AT ALL if they are 4 levels above the maximum APL available" HOWEVER .. taken literally "as worded" you can play at any APL providing you are within four of the maximum APL for the adventure. This leads to the ludicrous situation of a level 16 being able to play at APL2 so long as the adventure supports an APL12. Actually, it's meant to be taken literally. Taken literally (correctly), a 16th-level character is retired. A 15th-level character playing with four 1st-level characters = 19 character levels. Divided by 5 = 3.8. Rounds up to 4. Therefore, a 15th-level character trying to play as low as possible can only hit APL 4, but why that 15th level player would want to cap out at 337 XP and 300 GP, while the 1st-level players all take half, too, is beyond me. It is, in fact, such a ludicrous proposition that it's unlikely to happen. That said, if someone chose to play that way (and the module supported APL 12), I guess we'd just have to admit that the rules allowed it.
JayParker 08-04-06, 01:57 PM	Now if the writer had just remembered to put in the Experience and Treasure Awards summery instead of leaving it as the generic boiler-plate, I'd be all set. :rolleyes: Aren't you able to just add it all up yourself whether there's a "summery" or not? It's really not that hard to figure out.
clannagh 08-04-06, 10:53 PM	It is, in fact, such a ludicrous proposition that it's unlikely to happen. That said, if someone chose to play that way (and the module supported APL 12), I guess we'd just have to admit that the rules allowed it. Not that ludicrous .. a lot of modules have rewards (including in rare cases stat increases) that are totally unrelated to the APL played.
Iswald 08-04-06, 11:47 PM	Not that ludicrous .. a lot of modules have rewards (including in rare cases stat increases) that are totally unrelated to the APL played. That would imply that the player has information that they aren't supposed to. Not implausible, but against the rules.
JohnduBois 08-05-06, 01:13 AM	I can think of a number of ways this situation could happen without players breaking the rules. 1. Only one table of a slot goes off at a convention or GD, and the person only brought his 15th level character. 2. 15th level character has played the other mods in the series. 3. Mod's blurb says, "characters that do X should really play this mod", and the 15th is the only character that fits the condition - most common with meta-orgs. There are probably more, but I'm tired and this is all I could spontaneously come up with.
Mommy was an Orc 08-06-06, 12:33 PM	Generally, everybody at the table has less fun if you play way up or way down. If you play way up, you don't contribute much and the other players may feel compelled to save your sorry butt when you get in over your head. If you play way down, you dominate the combats and reduce the amount of monster-smacking fun everybody else has. So, for the love of fun, don't make a habit of playing up or down. Try to avoid it. Not to mention, it isn't unknown for that high level character to get affected by Dominate Person or similar spells. In a balanced party, the character usually can't do enough damage before someone can touch them with a Protection from Evil. When the Warmage 8 drops a DC 18 Empowered Fireball on the APL 4 party, doing an average of 42 hp of damage...odds are most of the party is dead or dying except maybe the really high hit point characters or those with evasion who managed to save. As most of the people capable of casting Protection from Evil are likely dead or dying(bad reflex saves for most of them), TPK is just around the corner.