Post/Author/DateTime	Post
amnuxoll 05-10-07, 04:37 PM	Is the Power Attack feat too powerful? Please reply to this thread and just vote yes or no. If you'd like to argue about it, please switch to the "Most Broken Rules Options Debate" thread. Thanks, :AMN: EDIT: The Tally So Far (up to Bold): 4 yes vote 29 no votes
amnuxoll 05-10-07, 04:38 PM	My Vote: Yes. :)
Redfist 05-10-07, 04:38 PM	No more than Empower for mages, Rapid shot for Archers, Mounted Combat for calvary, etc. No.
Jay_Ibero_911 05-10-07, 04:39 PM	No Without it, fighters are worthless.
LachlarlanIII 05-10-07, 04:47 PM	No, without it, front-liners cannot, IMO, compete with back-liners (casters and archers) in the damage department.
bitznarf 05-10-07, 04:49 PM	No.
Mattastrophic 05-10-07, 04:53 PM	Um, no.
Fleetfang 05-10-07, 05:05 PM	Vote: No.
Mommy was an Orc 05-10-07, 05:05 PM	no
Rerednaw 05-10-07, 05:07 PM	No way. And my main is a summoner/battlefield controller mage.
kjenks 05-10-07, 05:08 PM	No. Power Attack is one of the few things that prevents high-level melee fighters from becoming completely pointless at high APLs.
Sieylianna 05-10-07, 05:11 PM	Yes - two handed power attack is too good. Ed
ShinAkuma2 05-10-07, 05:14 PM	Yes. It allows non-casters to do damage. This abuse must stop.
Japangirl 05-10-07, 05:15 PM	No. Frontliner fighter/barbarians need good damage to keep up with rogues and casters.
bitznarf 05-10-07, 05:15 PM	Yes. It allows non-casters to do damage. This abuse must stop. LMAO
Haro 05-10-07, 05:20 PM	Yes - two handed power attack is too good. Ed Yes, for the above reason.
JamesMaissen 05-10-07, 06:00 PM	No, it places value on maintaining AC. It adds to the dimension of the space by not reducing AC down to just a Boolean score. This is especially valid in LG where mooks are rare in combats. -James
_metz_ 05-10-07, 08:23 PM	No. I think whinging about power attack is one of those rare cases where a caster or something actually doesn't outperform the fighter in a combat and gets irritated by that...
Swiftbrook 05-10-07, 08:25 PM	No
RedKnightofKet 05-10-07, 09:22 PM	No. Unless we want to get rid of everything effective in DnD so none of us are "munchkins".
solbergb 05-10-07, 09:38 PM	nope
Maesto 05-10-07, 10:16 PM	No, except when used with something like spirited charge and a lance.
GorTeX 05-10-07, 10:45 PM	It is nice, could use some revisions, but it is not overpowered.
GreatSiron 05-11-07, 01:38 AM	No, because it doesn't do what some people say it does, which is cause fighters to not sword and board. My fighter has it, and he sword and boards (has a tower shield in fact). If he really needs to do damage, he'll drop the shield and wield his waraxe two-handed. But if the casters have that covered, (which at higher APL's, they should) he can tank.
paigeoliver 05-11-07, 03:02 AM	No, except when used with something like spirited charge and a lance. I totally agree, unless the character is also a raging barbarian and marshall with the charge aura, at which point it rolls right past broken right around to balanced again. =)
ThaiGQ 05-11-07, 04:13 AM	Yes. It allows non-casters to do damage. This abuse must stop. I'm with Blitznarf on this one...LMAOL. I couldn't stop cracking up for like a minute after reading this! And, no, I don't think Power Attack is broken.
gomeztoo 05-11-07, 04:36 AM	Edit: rephrase I don't think it's broken. But I do think that it is overpowered as written.
zoinks69 05-11-07, 04:36 AM	No. It's one of a handful of "fixes" in 3.5 that I like. Bigger numbers == more fun :)
ezreal2001 05-11-07, 04:57 AM	No its one of those furphies which gets thrown up when people complain about spell x + meta magic y is broken - not in the same league really Oh and as Originally Posted by ShinAkuma2 Yes. It allows non-casters to do damage. This abuse must stop.
Stormydoom 05-11-07, 06:36 AM	no.
MatteBlack 05-11-07, 09:11 AM	No
TWG_Prometheus 05-11-07, 11:36 AM	I don't see why it wasn't restricted to a maximum of 5 like Combat Expertise was, but it's not really broken. Fact is, if you're Power Attacking for more than 3, most often you're just shooting yourself in the foot anyway. Not broken, but gets a little silly sometimes and could use some adjustments.
chesspiece 05-11-07, 12:06 PM	No, it's not too powerful. I'd still like to see a better balance between 2H PA vs Sword&Board vs 2WF vs Finesse Fighters. IMHO, 2H PA is incredibly dominant. I guess I like my D&D with less Conan's and more Knights of the Round Table / Swashbucklers. Scaling back PA a little or improving the other melee styles a little would make me :D
Bold 05-11-07, 12:06 PM	Fact is, if you're Power Attacking for more than 3, most often you're just shooting yourself in the foot anyway. Agreed. If you're Power Attacking for a lot, then you're not hitting very often and thus not doing an optimal amount of damage. If you're Power Attacking for a little, then the end affect isn't very large. There are some times when PA can be "broken", but they're limited to weird synergies like with Spirited Charge. Or due to luck, such as when a player foolishly Power Attacks for full and still manages to hit his high-AC opponent.
bitznarf 05-11-07, 12:11 PM	There is a thread for the debate over here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=844708&page=3) :)
amnuxoll 05-11-07, 12:14 PM	I'm going to stop counting votes at this point since the result is apparent and folks are starting to make long posts instead of just votes. I must say, I'm surprised. I knew the vote would go down in favor of "not overpowered" but I didn't realize it would be by such a margin. My high level melee PC does full power attack all the time and rarely misses. Maybe I'm just lucky or, more likely, just too twinky. :embarrass
smerwin29 05-11-07, 12:38 PM	I've created a spreadsheet for each of my Power Attacking characters that breaks down the optimal PA level against a range of ACs in different situations: Full Attack, Single Attack, Full Attack (Raging), Single Attack (Raging), Full Attack (Raging + Haste), etc. And for each I include a couple extra columns with the adjustments for +2 and +4 to attack, to account for other factors (charge, flank, bless, etc.) LOL. THIS is why Power Attack is broken. :gah: The pain of watching people figure their bonuses, or worse yet not be able to figure out their bonuses, is worse than a rule discussion on grappling underwater. Or not.
MeepoTheMighty 05-11-07, 12:47 PM	I don't think power attack is necessarily too powerful, but it's close. What I do see a lot of is convenient math errors, where someone will power attack for full but still hit ACs in the mid-30's. Power Attack does move into the realm of broken once you start adding spirited charge, leap attack, combat brute, exotic weapon master, etc into the mix, but that's not really Power Attack's fault. I think they should have left the x0.5/x1/x1.5 progression that was originally planned for light/one-handed/two-handed power attack, instead of the 0/x1/x2 that we ended up with. I'm going to stop counting votes at this point since the result is apparent and folks are starting to make long posts instead of just votes. I must say, I'm surprised. I knew the vote would go down in favor of "not overpowered" but I didn't realize it would be by such a margin. My high level melee PC does full power attack all the time and rarely misses. Maybe I'm just lucky or, more likely, just too twinky. :embarrass
Samwise 05-11-07, 05:37 PM	LOL. THIS is why Power Attack is broken. :gah: The pain of watching people figure their bonuses, or worse yet not be able to figure out their bonuses, is worse than a rule discussion on grappling underwater. Or not. Seconded! What we really need is a campaign rule that anyone who takes power attack must keep such a spreadsheet with them at all time. That, or if it takes longer to figure out your attack bonus than to kill the critter, you lose your turn. :P
Redfist 05-11-07, 05:45 PM	Seconded! What we really need is a campaign rule that anyone who takes power attack must keep such a spreadsheet with them at all time. That, or if it takes longer to figure out your attack bonus than to kill the critter, you lose your turn. :P :D I do exactly that. I have a spreadsheet that shows my bonuses from power attacking for 0 through full BAB, with 1 handed damage, 2 handed damage, strength at normal, strength up or strength down. Quick. Easy.
_metz_ 05-11-07, 06:19 PM	Seconded! What we really need is a campaign rule that anyone who takes power attack must keep such a spreadsheet with them at all time. That, or if it takes longer to figure out your attack bonus than to kill the critter, you lose your turn. :P HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA I'll keep that in mind, when currently deciding whether or not to get a Laptop over a Desktop... (hmm... power attack spreadsheets, Hero/SpellForge...)
Bold 05-11-07, 06:31 PM	:D I do exactly that. I have a spreadsheet that shows my bonuses from power attacking for 0 through full BAB, with 1 handed damage, 2 handed damage, strength at normal, strength up or strength down. Quick. Easy. Not for some people--some of the worst offenders of the Slow-player Syndrome are the melee guys who use a big table with all their modifiers. I've seen far too many players get lost in their own spreadsheets, either taking too long to figure out which column and row they're supposed to be in, or they end up making a mistake because they looked at the wrong cell. The tables I use are only to guide me in figuring out what level of PA I should use, and all this is done prior to my turn. I write down the attack bonus(es) and damage modifiers in advance so there's no spreadsheet consultation on my turn. Just announce, roll, and go.
Redfist 05-11-07, 06:38 PM	I try not to metagame my PA setting. If my PC doesn't have a good idea of AC he simply tries "power attack for half". I look at the 2-handed, normal str cell and there it is - to hit + damage. If I hit easily, I move the PA up. If I missed badly, I move the PA down. I think the key is having an EASY TO READ chart and not some monochromatic spew of #'s that is hard to navigate. Mine is color-coded and well organized. I decide my power attack in 1-2 seconds and know my tohiit/damage in 1 second. I roll dice and add. I can't get much quicker than that. I never have to say "ok... that's StrMod*2 because I have uncanny blow + PA*2 because I'm 2-handed. So, that's umm... carry the 40... add dice (3 minutes later). Ok - I do 87 points." I've seen players do that and it drives me nuts. :-) --Gordon
Hariman 05-11-07, 07:34 PM	I'll add my nail in the coffin, emphatic, NO. You hit less when you do more damage. It's that simple. Now, you can make this more dramatic by using Spirited Charge or other bonuses. Or perhaps a one level dip for True Strike. I've seen Power Attack used at Full BAB against low AC enemies to great effect. I've seen "can't hit me" enemies that laughed at power attackers. (Damn clerics)
copper_wyrmling 05-11-07, 07:51 PM	I'll add my nail in the coffin, emphatic, NO. You hit less when you do more damage. It's that simple. Sure... but for my particular PC, he's L10, and up to about AC 28 he gets at least a 20% bonus to average damage / round from using power attack (using that nifty calculator). His optimum PA versus AC 25 comes out at about six points. He hits less, but on average the extra damage more than makes up for it. That's pretty good for one feat with trivial prereqs. I don't think it's broken. It might be better than it should be (like fatespinner, dervish, radiant servant, a lot of no-save spells from the PHB, etc).
cycloptic_squirrel 05-11-07, 09:16 PM	Broken? No. I think the two handed option is unbalanced compared to other styles though. Ideally I'd like to see something like PAx1.5 if you only attack with one weapon; or maybe an option to have your combat expertise bonus doubled if you have a heavy sheild readied. Something. Power attack as it stands is a good option that doesn't need to be nerfed, but there aren't enough other options/reasons to wear a sheild if you're the frontliner.
KarmaInferno 05-12-07, 07:42 PM	I try not to metagame my PA setting. In my half-orc fighter/barbarian's case, it's easy not to metagame. He's too stupid to do anything else except power attack for full. Preferably while raging. He has more rage than brains. Also, he has more feats than he has skill points. :D -karma
Genghis Cohen 05-12-07, 08:42 PM	Seconded! What we really need is a campaign rule that anyone who takes power attack must keep such a spreadsheet with them at all time. That, or if it takes longer to figure out your attack bonus than to kill the critter, you lose your turn. :PSounds good to me, but its not quite as bad as unprepared summoners. I have a color coded spread sheet for power attack, which is not broken, that allows me to do that voo doo that i do so well.
Samwise 05-12-07, 09:58 PM	Sounds good to me, but its not quite as bad as unprepared summoners. Don't look at me, I have my critters statted out.
Puggle Halfwine 05-12-07, 10:20 PM	No, except when used with something like spirited charge and a lance. ... <whistles innocently...> And I vote no. :O
Genghis Cohen 05-13-07, 12:25 PM	Don't look at me, I have my critters statted out.I wasn't thinking of you. You've mastered the high art of the Badger. I was thinking about other players with druids.
katrick 05-13-07, 12:44 PM	nuh katrick
jstorrie 05-13-07, 04:13 PM	No.
GenghisBob 05-15-07, 06:03 AM	no, it is not broken.
The_Jester 05-15-07, 09:56 AM	No.
Cardinal Teplin 05-15-07, 10:30 AM	Yes, but only for two-handed weapons. Scale it back to 1.5 for 1 rather than 2 for 1, like the strength bonus, and it works just fine.
clannagh 05-15-07, 07:53 PM	No, except when used with something like spirited charge and a lance. what about a deadly charge and crit with lance and riding boots for 14 points damage for each point of attack bonus sacrificed :)
Reylance 05-16-07, 02:31 PM	Overall, no. It's slightly broken, and would be better with two feats (one allowing 5 points of Power Attack, the second allowing any Power Attack). It would also be better if the damage bonus was .5 for light weapons and secondary natural attacks, 1 for one-handed weapons and primary natural attacks, and 1.5 for two-handed weapons and creatures with one natural attack. The second biggest problem with Power Attack comes from monsters with ridiculous Strength and BAB for their challenge rating. Anything that hits regularly while Power Attacking for 20 is a bit much. The biggest problem with Power Attack comes from any ability that allows you to substitute anything other than BAB for damage.
mowaca 05-20-07, 11:29 AM	LOL. THIS is why Power Attack is broken. :gah: The pain of watching people figure their bonuses, or worse yet not be able to figure out their bonuses, is worse than a rule discussion on grappling underwater. Or not. Re: Grappling underwater...I recently had a long in-game argument with a player about the mechanics of casting spells while swimming...that was more painful than power attack arithmetic. My biggest PA problem is all the errors. Its not broken, but it sure is annoying.
Oogar 05-20-07, 11:21 PM	no
Mithreinmaethor 05-20-07, 11:35 PM	No, I dont think that its broken. But to play Devil's advocate I could see them restrict it to 5 and then add Imrpoved Power Attack and Greater Power Attack (max 10 and 15 respectively) in a later release of the game.
frupton 05-21-07, 12:25 AM	Not broken. Shock Trooper is closer to being broken than Power Attack. Though I agree with others that I would rather see it only add 1.5 X damage to 2H weapons. If there were a separate feat "Improved Power Attack" that was required to power attack for >5, it would probably not be universally taken. A primary attraction of Power Attack is that it opens up the rest of that tree of feats.
dkay807 05-21-07, 10:25 PM	No, Power Attack is not broken. Animated Shields are broken. There is absolutely no reason not to use an Animated Shield when you can get access to one. Because of the availability of Animated Shields, no player of a melee PC thinks twice about playing a two-handed power attacker. Remove the possibility of using a shield and two-handed power attacking together (without dumping a ton of feats into fighting with a buckler), and you'll suddenly see a big improvement in game balance. Think about the definition of broken - something that inherently breaks the rules of the game it is a part of. Power Attack is great, but under that definition, not broken. The Animated Shield upgrade is. Think about it.
CdrcJsn 05-22-07, 02:33 AM	No. Just because a feat is almost always taken for a specific play style, does not make it any more broken than the fact that all (effective) archers take rapid shot.
Timlagor 05-22-07, 06:53 AM	DKay: Definitions of "broken" vary wildly. AFAIK only one feat is required to use a Buckler with 2HF.
dkay807 05-22-07, 07:17 PM	DKay: Definitions of "broken" vary wildly. AFAIK only one feat is required to use a Buckler with 2HF. True, only one feat, but it also costs you a point of attack bonus. Altogether, a high cost for what animated does for free (+1 more AC).
bitznarf 05-22-07, 07:33 PM	True, only one feat, but it also costs you a point of attack bonus. Altogether, a high cost for what animated does for free (+1 more AC). If by 'free' you mean 'costs money' then yes. Note that using a buckler with Improved Buckler Defence is in some ways similar to taking Combat Expertise (-1 to hit for +1AC).
solbergb 05-22-07, 10:33 PM	Animated is a +2 enhancement. Getting an animated shield means begging the cleric for magic vestment, because you'll have a hard time affording enchanting it much beyond that. My own tower shield guy isn't planning on getting animated ever. He'd rather have a +5 (or highest plus he can afford) shield every single game. When he wants to use 2-handed power attack he shucks the shield. There will be many enemies whose attacks his fullplate will stop on its own. My archer on the other hand might someday get an animated shield. Maybe not though. He's been letting his AC languish since level 4 and it hasn't bit him yet. Until it does, all his big ticket items (boots of haste, holy bow, strength belt, health amulet upgrades, resistance items) will likely have higher priority. There is a tradeoff. It isn't free, except for clerics and favored souls who self-buff with magic vestment (and even then, there is a spell slot to consider, although that's a lesser cost)
Evanta 05-23-07, 10:59 PM	Is power attack broken? I'd say yes, just so that they change the mechanics if there ever is a 4.0 up. Back to the restriction of 5 would be nice. Although I'm more of the opinion that they need to beef up the other styles of combat more (sword and board, TWF, single-handed) rather than nerf power attack.
bronzmonkee 05-30-07, 02:42 PM	1 handed - No Two handed - iffy, better if it was capped at 5 My preference would be for the following Light - x1/2 One Handed - x1 Two Handed - x1.5 But then the math would be harder :)
rexfelis 05-31-07, 12:24 AM	Yes -1 attack penalty can equal +2 damage, and it can stack on much higher damage. No Pre-requisite feat or advanced BaB. No requirement of Fighter Class. This damage is not situational like other feats that require a charge or special weapons or a special attack and so on. It should be clear that AS A FEAT: Power Attack is much, much too good! Just because it might seem required mechanic to give Meleers something they can rely on does not mean that is a game-balanced feat. Power Attack should never have been a feat. It should have been a melee combat option like Fighting Defensively, and then scaled down to less than +2 damage per Base Attack Bonus.
trollbill 05-31-07, 04:18 PM	Well, I have been looking at the situation and the damage a Power Attacking high-level fighter can do can look pretty darn scary. That is until you start comparing it to high-level spellcasters and archers, and then its barely on par. Which tells me the only thing wrong with Power Attack is that there aren't enough other ways a melee fighter-type can do on-par damage at high levels. Though feats like Deadly Defense are a step in the right direction. So to answer the question, No, it's not broke. But I would like to see a greater assortment of Feat trees that allowed you to do similar damage.
MatteBlack 05-31-07, 05:28 PM	The math would be a bit harder but, I'd suggest when using a a two-hander and power attack that Fighter BAB count double and all other BAB count 1.5x. It gives the long sought reason to stay a pure fighter and tones down power attack dramatically in most builds. Sure people would use the BAB from their fighter levels first but, the method would improve two common complaints.