Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Japangirl 02-19-07, 12:41 PM	I was looking at all the allowed polymorph subschool spells, and at first glance they're pretty awesome. Swift action, 30 temp hitpoints, turn into a troll or a chimera or even a beholder for rounds/level with all the features of said monster intact. Then I looked at the cost. While I was in that form, I could cast NO SPELLS. My spell component pouch would meld with me! So unless I had bought a second spell pouch to give to someone else and then spent a move action retrieving said pouch (or two moves, one to move over and one to grab), spellcasting with components was out. Dimension door could still be cast, I suppose. OK, well, that workaround can be done. But how about the fact that a Headband of Intellect or Cloak of Charisma both meld too? Instead of giving up one spell slot, casting a trollshape (4th level spell) costs instead an additional somewhere between a 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th spell slots and 2 4ths, a 5th, 6th, and 8th spell slots (assuming stat item +6 at 15th level when you can have 8th level spell slots to lose). That's five spell slots of various spell levels used in addition to the use of the actual polymorphing spell. If the spell is too powerful and must use more spell power, the general solution is to make it go up in spell level, not cost multiple other spell slots. It's also a -3 on the DCs of all spells cast by said person until they unshift, but the bonus spells are gone for good for the day. Just another example of how the polymorph subschool errata is terribly written. People keep calling it a hack job and I find myself forced to agree.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-19-07, 12:51 PM	At least with regard to material components, you can always take Eschew Materials...Not that you could cast spells while in troll shape anyway, because in troll shape you have 6 int....Yes, the new polymorph subschool spells also change your mental ability scores. Also, you lose ALL special abilities of your normal form INCLUDING those derived from class levels...
Japangirl 02-19-07, 12:54 PM	And thus, the silliness of 4th and up spells (only useable by primary casters) rendering casting useless. A 7th level wizard has much better things to do than hit things as a troll . . . I'd completely overlooked that they now changed your mental stats and that you lost class abilities. A completely non-advanced MM troll at APL 6 or 8 is . . . unimpressive, to say the least.
copper_wyrmling 02-19-07, 02:08 PM	About the only use I can see for the new polymorph spells is casting them on your familiar. Temporary hit points are a better mechanic than a Constitution increase, for them :) And having a troll / beholder / dragon familiar isn't so bad...
Mattastrophic 02-19-07, 02:12 PM	Upon looking at it, I noticed that you lose all class features while Polymorphed... i.e. you lose ALL SPELLCASTING. -Matt
Donald_Cannith 02-19-07, 02:14 PM	But even still, that makes these spells go from being an iconic part fo the campaign setting into a useless ability that I have a thousand better things to do with. I just pity the transmuters out there built for those spells because they have been gimped to hell. There should be an option for a rebuild for transmuters because i mean honestly suddenly your transmuter is just a glorified buffer, and honestly thats what clerics and bards are for.
Ancillary 02-19-07, 04:12 PM	Since your hitpoints do not change the troll form is decent. For healing not combat. Regen of 5 hp per caster level is more effecient than any pre-heal cleric spells. It is also a clumsy way for you to delay death yourself. But for what the authors intended the spells are garbage unless you use them on you familiar which will end up getting your familiar killed eventually (with the exception of troll form). Your familiar also does not need to do what you tell it to while polymorphed, but that does not matter in LG where the default is that you are allies.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-19-07, 04:30 PM	Since your hitpoints do not change the troll form is decent. For healing not combat. Regen of 5 hp per caster level is more effecient than any pre-heal cleric spells. It is also a clumsy way for you to delay death yourself. I thought regeneration merely converted all damage into non-lethal and you heal X non-lethal every round. I'd agree that it's a delay death option, but I don't think it'd heal any damage you already took (unless it's non-lethal). I wish the spells were better, but I am happy that there's at least some polymorphing still in LG (but I do sorely miss my alter self).
Lomiat 02-19-07, 06:51 PM	1) Casting the spells on your familiar is still a good option. 2) Do you lose all your spells for the entire day when you assume a polymorphed form? (Most don't have the INT or CHA to cast even a 1st-level spell.) 3) I'm uncertain if you use the monster's base attack progression (e.g. monstrous humanoid is 1/HD?) or if you use the monster's base attack in its base form (e.g. troll is 5 BAB). 4) As you still retain your HD for all effective purposes, if you had a Contingency: Trollshape that you could activate with a Tenser's Transformation, you should be able to turn into a Troll with full BAB/HD, +bonuses, right? 5) That's not as a good as an Annis Hag that doesn't lose its items, but it's not ... awful ... 6) I really want to make this work as the errata has confounded my whole character concept (not the build, mind you; my wizard can still cast spells and has a high DC, etc.--but it seriously disrupted the character concept).
Jay_Ibero_911 02-19-07, 07:02 PM	1) Casting the spells on your familiar is still a good option. 2) Do you lose all your spells for the entire day when you assume a polymorphed form? (Most don't have the INT or CHA to cast even a 1st-level spell.) 3) I'm uncertain if you use the monster's base attack progression (e.g. monstrous humanoid is 1/HD?) or if you use the monster's base attack in its base form (e.g. troll is 5 BAB). 4) As you still retain your HD for all effective purposes, if you had a Contingency: Trollshape that you could activate with a Tenser's Transformation, you should be able to turn into a Troll with full BAB/HD, +bonuses, right? 5) That's not as a good as an Annis Hag that doesn't lose its items, but it's not ... awful ... 6) I really want to make this work as the errata has confounded my whole character concept (not the build, mind you; my wizard can still cast spells and has a high DC, etc.--but it seriously disrupted the character concept). YOu need to reverse your contingencies...Otherwise if you Transformation first, your BAB gets whiped out by the troll shape, whereas if you have a contingency transformation set to trigger with troll shape, then you are good to go...or at least less sucky....Though it's actually pretty kickass to cast BOTH on your familiar.....and troll shape is swift....oh boy, swarm of familiar trolls......
Southernskies 02-20-07, 02:52 AM	By my understanding of the subschool spells (like Trollshape) you simply open the MM and play the listed troll. The only separate item to track outside the MM is your hp.
Arvagor 02-20-07, 07:40 AM	[...] I just pity the transmuters out there built for those spells because they have been gimped to hell. There should be an option for a rebuild for transmuters because i mean honestly suddenly your transmuter is just a glorified buffer, and honestly thats what clerics and bards are for.Oh, please... :rolleyes: Take a look at http://www.d20srd.org/filters/spell.php, select "Wizard" and "Transmutation" -- there are plenty of incredibly useful spells there (polymorph spells being only 5 out of the 73 listed)
Maesto 02-20-07, 08:09 AM	Regen was a special quality, which you don't get from trollshape. It's even worse than you think... I've considered turning into a marut just for fun... just once. However, it's extremely unlikely to do anything remotely useful... Cheers, Jolyon
MerricB 02-20-07, 08:42 AM	The new polymorph spells are actually pretty useful. Here's a few notes: * They're only a swift action to cast. Thus, you can change form and immediately attack. * Yes, you lose regular spellcasting ability. However, you may gain new spells (from the form), and you certainly become pretty good in melee for most forms. * You gain temporary hit points in the forms. These work as an ablative shield. * Melee attacks get past SR. There may be times this is useful. * The loss of bonus spells from the Headband is the one problem with the spells. (In my homebrew games, I just suspend your spell knowledge when you're in the polymorphed form, so there's no spell-loss, but that might not be accurate for LG. It doesn't bother sorcerers, of course). [b]Spells{/b] Shape of the Hellspawned Stalker (CM, Sor/Wiz 3) Hellhound; +10 hp Hellhounds aren't that great. Still, as a 3rd level spell, it's not that bad. You're only going to get one use of the breath weapon (2d6, 15 cone) before the combat ends, but you can do some brief tracking by smell, and the bite attack is decent: +5 melee (1d8+1 plus 1d6 fire) is probably better than what the cleric does. Aspect of the Icy Hunter (CM, Sor/Wiz 4) Winter Wolf; +20 hp This is a step up. Melee +9 (1d8+6 plus 1d6 cold + Trip) is on par with the secondary warriors of the group, and possibly getting up towards the fighters with the Trip ability. You might get the freezing breath weapon twice in the combat (4d6 cold, 15' cone). Trollshape (PH2, Sor/Wiz 4) Troll; +30 hp Trolls have reach! Changing and making a full attack in the first round could be a real surprise... Melee +9/+9 (1d6+6) +4 (1d6+3) plus rend (2d6+9) is very sold. Regeneration 5 as well (on top of the temporary hp gain?) Nice. Form of the Threefold Beast (CM, Sor/Wiz 5) Chimera; +30 hp Breath weapon will probably see use more than once, although it isn't that great. (3d8, 40' line or 20' cone) - mind you, being able to choose what energy type may prove useful against vulnerable opponents. It's not the reason to choose the form, though. Melee +12 (2d6+4), +12 (1d8+4), +12 (1d8+4) +10/+10 (1d6+2) is the reason to choose the form, but by 9th level, this is less effective than normal. You *can* fly (50 ft, poor), though. Unyielding Form of Inevitable Death (CM, Sor/Wiz 8) Marut; +50 hp This form is just terrifying. AC 34, Fast Healing 10, DR 15/chaotic (and what creature is using chaotic weapons?), and a really good melee attack: Melee +22/+22 (2d6+12 plus 3d6 sonic or electricity). Oh, and a bunch of spells (though not Chain Lightning or Earthquake) - air walk, dimension door, fear, greater command, greater dispel magic, mass inflict light wounds, locate creature, true seeing (CL 14). Pity you'll be retiring your PC soon, but you're doing pretty well. Cheers!
MerricB 02-20-07, 08:47 AM	Regen was a special quality, which you don't get from trollshape. It's even worse than you think... Yes you do. You get *all* special abilities (except noted in the spell text) when you cast trollshape. The "not gaining special qualities" was part of the errata for "Alter Self", and Trollshape doesn't pay attention to that spell. Cheers!
Fleetfang 02-20-07, 11:22 AM	LOL... Welcome to the wonderful world of Suck, Japangirl. :) Wildshape has all the same problems that these polymorph spells have. Except for Druids, there aren't hundreds of other spells to memorize instead. They're stuck with a class feature that got gimped, not just a couple of spells. Thanks, Circle, for the Druid rebuild! Woot.