| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Lomiat02-20-06, 02:58 PM | With the current furor over the Polymorph errata still seeking resolution, I wanted both to voice my opinion that Polymorph should stay in LG and that the Circle deserves credit for how it has handled Polymorph for the past couple years (I've only played a couple, so I don't know if the size and MM restrictions have been in place since the campaign's inception). The current Circle ruling is proving (see the confusion on other boards) to be far simpler, more elegant, and more liberating than the muddled attempt WotC has made to restrict its abuses in other settings. Kudos, Circle. |
| Objulen02-20-06, 03:04 PM | With the current furor over the Polymorph errata still seeking resolution, I wanted both to voice my opinion that Polymorph should stay in LG and that the Circle deserves credit for how it has handled Polymorph for the past couple years (I've only played a couple, so I don't know if the size and MM restrictions have been in place since the campaign's inception). The current Circle ruling is proving (see the confusion on other boards) to be far simpler, more elegant, and more liberating than the muddled attempt WotC has made to restrict its abuses in other settings. Kudos, Circle. I wholehearted agree. Why Wizards doesn't just adopted a similar policy, I don't know, since it removes the cheese from Polymorph. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-20-06, 04:39 PM | With the current furor over the Polymorph errata still seeking resolution, I wanted both to voice my opinion that Polymorph should stay in LG and that the Circle deserves credit for how it has handled Polymorph for the past couple years (I've only played a couple, so I don't know if the size and MM restrictions have been in place since the campaign's inception). The current Circle ruling is proving (see the confusion on other boards) to be far simpler, more elegant, and more liberating than the muddled attempt WotC has made to restrict its abuses in other settings. Kudos, Circle. You know what? This is the first time I'm ever going to vote that the Circle just ignore an incredibly bad, pointless, inept "errata" from WotC and keep playing the same way we've been playing. |
| SYB02-20-06, 08:04 PM | Bob, Your incessant ranting on this topic has become annoying. Your position is clear. Please stop trolling every thread with it. It only makes you look bad and damages your credibility. -SYB |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-20-06, 09:05 PM | Bob, Your incessant ranting on this topic has become annoying. Your position is clear. Please stop trolling every thread with it. It only makes you look bad and damages your credibility. -SYB I have sent you a PM. I see no point exposing the boards to your blatant flaming. |
| CSHunt6802-21-06, 02:38 PM | Bob, Your incessant ranting on this topic has become annoying. Your position is clear. Please stop trolling every thread with it. It only makes you look bad and damages your credibility. -SYB Hear hear. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-21-06, 03:32 PM | Hear hear. Are you enjoying following me around and stalking my posts? Is this some sort of fun joke on your part? Some of us have characters impacted. Some don't. I personally don't. However, even I can see how poorly worked out their errata decision is, if you aren't some power-gaming freak who gets glee out of watching other people's characters get nerfed unnecessarily. I'm going to ask you once. LEAVE ME ALONE. |
| CSHunt6802-21-06, 04:02 PM | Are you enjoying following me around and stalking my posts? Is this some sort of fun joke on your part? Some of us have characters impacted. Some don't. I personally don't. However, even I can see how poorly worked out their errata decision is, if you aren't some power-gaming freak who gets glee out of watching other people's characters get nerfed unnecessarily. I'm going to ask you once. LEAVE ME ALONE. This is a public board, Bob_the_Theurge. If I concur with someone that another member is going overboard on a particular topic, I will post to that effect. As I did. BTW, having responded to precisely ONE of your posts recently, and only indirectly to another, I think the term "stalking" is a bit harsh. If you're that thin-skinned, perhaps you should consider curbing the enthusiasm of your invective in here. Go ahead. Ask me twice. :) |
| WizO_Shadow02-21-06, 04:16 PM | Thred derailing is a forum disruption which is against the CoC. Knock it off. I'm not going to lock thread after thread because of a rant that won't stop. WizO_Shadow |
| CSHunt6802-21-06, 04:24 PM | I trust that the Circle will do well for us, as they have in the past. I believe that complaining about WotC rules which haven't yet come into play in LG is extremely premature, and that raw invective against WotC has no place in these boards. Regards, Sean Hunt |
| Bruiser42002-21-06, 05:23 PM | The errata's arent effective in LG as soon as theyre issued? How do we know when they come into effect then? I have a druid on track to become a master of many forms at next level, and I'm concerned about this new errata. I feel it does not perform its stated function (a fix to polymorph) and instead addresses any number of abilities based on polymorph. If polymorph were the real concern, why have only derivative abilities been altered? |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-21-06, 05:53 PM | The errata's arent effective in LG as soon as theyre issued? They are. It's just that nobody knows how to fit this errata in, because it keeps changing and because the things it seems to do are so painful for certain players. I pity anyone with a wildshape druid or MoMF who's at Winter Fantasy for example. I have a druid on track to become a master of many forms at next level, and I'm concerned about this new errata. As well you should be. I feel it does not perform its stated function (a fix to polymorph) and instead addresses any number of abilities based on polymorph. If polymorph were the real concern, why have only derivative abilities been altered? The answer is, in service to the Mark of Heroes campaign, WotC's "designers" came up with strange new abilities to hand to various monsters and classes, to "decouple" them from Polymorph. They then banned Polymorph itself (and associated spells) from MoH. The end result is that they don't actually have to fix or reword Polymorph, so they didn't bother. As an added bonus, instead of publishing the "fix" as errata, they're hoping to use it as an incentive to get people to buy the PHB II, much as they used the Spell Compendium rather than publishing errata to "fix" various spells from the Complete series. I hope that answers your questions. |
| CSHunt6802-21-06, 06:02 PM | The errata's arent effective in LG as soon as theyre issued? Typically, yes. In this case, no. As has been posted, the Circle will consider the issue of this errata at Winter Fantasy. How do we know when they come into effect then? The Circle will tell you. I have a druid on track to become a master of many forms at next level, and I'm concerned about this new errata. I guess you'll have to wait and see what happens, along with everyone else. |
| Sieylianna02-21-06, 07:32 PM | The errata's arent effective in LG as soon as theyre issued? How do we know when they come into effect then? I have a druid on track to become a master of many forms at next level, and I'm concerned about this new errata. I feel it does not perform its stated function (a fix to polymorph) and instead addresses any number of abilities based on polymorph. If polymorph were the real concern, why have only derivative abilities been altered? It's definitely a concern. Personally, my straight druid who is on the verge of leveling may pick up a level of master of many forms to improve the odds that I get to rebuild the PC. Let's face it, unless the Circle mitigates the damage the changes done to my druid, he's going to be unplayable at his APL anyway. Ed |
| Lomiat02-21-06, 08:14 PM | Though I find it hard to believe that a straight druid can't at least contribute to a party as a primary caster or buffer, I think Ed's concern validates my earlier appraisal of the Circle's long-standing restriction on Polymorph. With no invective toward WotC, I believe it's fair to say that their decision to ban Polymorph from MoH and, more to the point, to errata every spell that referenced Polymorph has, at the least, opened a "can of worms." It's actually interesting, from a strictly logical perspective, to watch as players and campaign managers and designers alike, try to find a way to word a change to the game. It's discouraging in its impact, sure, but it says something about all the work that has to go into balancing the effects of such an open-ended spell as Polymorph. One of the reasons, though, that I would maintain the Circle should not ban Polymorph from LG is that because that step proceeds (has already jumped) a long way down the "slippery slope" of limiting every open-ended effect. The argument that Polymorph spawned numerous debates and halted numerous games so that players and/or judges could check rules is fair, but the same thing will happen with other spells, and will happen for those other spells more often if Polymorph is removed. There are players who like open-ended effects and want to find creative ways to use them. And they will continue to play differently than blaster mages who just go, "Hey, here's my 10d6 fireball. Make a reflex save." I tend toward both types of spells at times, but it would be a shape if D&D, ore more precisely, LG, veered too close to the restrictive. There will be rules questions no matter which, if any, spells remain in the game. That's how it works. In MN, we have yet to get through a slot zero (all of us judges together) without having to reference our books for a ruling at least once, if not two or three times. That's part of why we have DMs, after all, to make rulings. Polymorph is one of the most iconic spells in the game, and I strongly feel that it ought to remain in the game. Its removal would bring spellcasters ever another step toward black and white, with no gray. The gray's a lot of fun, I think. Personally, I hope WotC designers are perusing all these boards and considering every rational argument. Rather than try to manage the fall-out of the current ruling(s), I think they ought to adopt LG's limitations on Polymorph as an errata to Polymorph rather than peck at its powers peripherally. Because this is the conclusion to which I come time and again, and because LG's Circle members so neatly curtailed most of the spell's troubles before they erupted with new sourcebooks, that's why I started this thread in the first place (and that's why I would hope the thread could stay on topic rather than devolve into flame wars). |
| Samwise02-21-06, 09:39 PM | Polymorph is one of the most iconic spells in the game, and I strongly feel that it ought to remain in the game. Its removal would bring spellcasters ever another step toward black and white, with no gray. The gray's a lot of fun, I think. It is? I don't recall people ever using it so much in 1st and 2nd ed. Probably because it granted nothing but the shape and movement for wizards. Oh sure, you could risk the system shock and mind loss rolls with Polymorph Other. But if you did so regularly it would eventually take you out of the game. The same with Haste. The spell is far from iconic. Now fireball, that's iconic. Of course even fireball got the major hosing way back when damage for it was limited to 10d6. So I don't see the big in giving polymorph the big cutting down to size. |
| CaiasWard02-22-06, 09:03 AM | It is? I don't recall people ever using it so much in 1st and 2nd ed. Probably because it granted nothing but the shape and movement for wizards. Oh sure, you could risk the system shock and mind loss rolls with Polymorph Other. But if you did so regularly it would eventually take you out of the game. The same with Haste. The spell is far from iconic. Now fireball, that's iconic. Of course even fireball got the major hosing way back when damage for it was limited to 10d6. So I don't see the big in giving polymorph the big cutting down to size. Sam, while your contributions to LG are 1) pretty big and 2) much appreciated (Sam is a former Keoland Triad and current judge/etc.), you aren't actually playing LG... Thus, you aren't seeing it from our side. It <i>is</I> big to have rules constantly changed, perfectly legal (and in most cases non-cheese) builds invalidated, and often times watch people with no involvement in the campaign alter our play experience. We even have someone banned from RPGA play for campaign fraud on this board and the LG list influencing people. It's very frustrating to wonder what is going to go away next; from non-core, I understand, but for a core source to get so altered as Wildshape only leads me to believe that Polymorph is going to be changed for the (far) worse. It's a different experience on the other side of the table. And for many of us who are players, to watch our comments not even get acknowledged is frustrating. Some things needed to be changed (nightsticks) even though they seriously affect some of my characters. Polymorph? As a player who uses it from time to time, I find it to be a great combat/utility spell and pretty balanced in the Circle implementation of it. It's also compareable to many 4th level spells in power. Evard's, Dimension Door... the list goes on. Evard's ends combats; Dimension Door ensures a wizard is never in a grapple more than one round. It is also iconic in respect that shapeshifting is a common ability in many of the things that D&D is based on. As for Fireball, it's balanced with other 3rd level spells based on the scale created for 3rd edition. |
| CSHunt6802-22-06, 09:38 AM | Sam, while your contributions to LG are 1) pretty big and 2) much appreciated (Sam is a former Keoland Triad and current judge/etc.), you aren't actually playing LG... I am, and I agree with him. Thus, you aren't seeing it from our side. You mean _your_ side? Because I'm not on your side. It <i>is</I> big to have rules constantly changed, perfectly legal (and in most cases non-cheese) builds invalidated, and often times watch people with no involvement in the campaign alter our play experience. "Perfectly legal" is a straw man. Everything you use is legal. Nothing that's illegal is allowed. Any rule change is going to affect "legal" things. "Non-cheese" is totally subjective. I guess lots of people thought that Wildshape and Polymorph were "cheesy". Finally, I believe that many of the people with input in the decision had involvement with LG. |
| Objulen02-22-06, 09:57 AM | "Perfectly legal" is a straw man. Everything you use is legal. Nothing that's illegal is allowed. Any rule change is going to affect "legal" things. "Non-cheese" is totally subjective. I guess lots of people thought that Wildshape and Polymorph were "cheesy". Finally, I believe that many of the people with input in the decision had involvement with LG. However, was the view that wildshape and polymorph is cheesy valid? Does wildshape or polymorph allow a character to overcome encounters with greater ease than other builds? People are going off on wildshape/polymorph, but in LG, the cheese of huge sized magical beasts has been cut, and thus is not anymore powerful than several other optimized builds, such as the AoO, Spike Chain, Trip Fighter, or the charcter who level dip into 3+ classes (including PrCs) to create the best possible build. If we want to talk about cheese -- Holy Word abuse is cheese. Nightstick enhanced DMM:Q is cheese. Why is it that Wizard's isn't jumping up and down to fix these? Polymorph and Wildshape? Polymorph needed its fix, and it got it. Druid and MoMF wildshapes are self-restricting because of the list of forms that can be assumed (MoMF sacrifice spells for forms, after all). Polymorph, and thus everything associated with, recieved a bad rap when people could turn into 12 headed cyrohydras or war trolls and tear up the landscape. It was broken, but it was fixed -- nothing larger than one above your base size, and nothing outside the MM. Druids certainly aren't more powerful than clerics with wildshape, and there's no massive movement to nerf their abililty to wade through combat with a self-buffed melee build. |
| CaiasWard02-22-06, 10:02 AM | I am, and I agree with him. You mean _your_ side? Because I'm not on your side. "Perfectly legal" is a straw man. Everything you use is legal. Nothing that's illegal is allowed. Any rule change is going to affect "legal" things. "Non-cheese" is totally subjective. I guess lots of people thought that Wildshape and Polymorph were "cheesy". Finally, I believe that many of the people with input in the decision had involvement with LG. Why have you turned this into an attack? I'll leave my responses to you with that, and discuss this matter with those that don't assume confrontation. |
| JohnduBois02-22-06, 10:20 AM | If we want to talk about cheese -- Holy Word abuse is cheese. Nightstick enhanced DMM:Q is cheese. Why is it that Wizard's isn't jumping up and down to fix these? Polymorph and Wildshape? Polymorph needed its fix, and it got it. Druid and MoMF wildshapes are self-restricting because of the list of forms that can be assumed (MoMF sacrifice spells for forms, after all). Polymorph, and thus everything associated with, recieved a bad rap when people could turn into 12 headed cyrohydras or war trolls and tear up the landscape. It was broken, but it was fixed -- nothing larger than one above your base size, and nothing outside the MM. Druids certainly aren't more powerful than clerics with wildshape, and there's no massive movement to nerf their abililty to wade through combat with a self-buffed melee build. To address these in order: 1. Yes. Nightstick enhanced DMM:Q is cheese. That's why the Circle disallowed the item from the campaign. 2. The errata and such involving Polymorph is NOT an LG-limited phenomenon. Mark of Heroes did not have the same restrictions that LG did, and that's a significant part of the reason it got banned. The errata was an effort to not ban base classes in campaigns that chose to disallow Polymorph. Was this the best course? I don't know. Was it better than banning druids and golems in Mark of Heroes? Absolutely. |
| CSHunt6802-22-06, 10:33 AM | Why have you turned this into an attack? I'll leave my responses to you with that, and discuss this matter with those that don't assume confrontation. In what way is this an attack? I took issue with some of the things you posted. You're free to discuss this matter with whoever you like. |
| CSHunt6802-22-06, 10:35 AM | However, was the view that wildshape and polymorph is cheesy valid? I, at least, am willing to concede that the issue of cheesiness is subjective. |
| Samwise02-22-06, 10:47 AM | Sam, while your contributions to LG are 1) pretty big and 2) much appreciated (Sam is a former Keoland Triad and current judge/etc.), you aren't actually playing LG... Haven't you heard the bad news Caias? I am. 4th level wizard and counting. :D I'm going to have to do a major switch in what I've been playing, since I was going to stick with Core adventures, but except for getting to finish the Bright Sands series, that is over. (Because I'm now a Core editor.) So it looks like I get to die in regionals and meta-regionals. (And suffer from Steve Hess puns. The Pain! THE PAIN!) Thus, you aren't seeing it from our side. It <i>is</I> big to have rules constantly changed, perfectly legal (and in most cases non-cheese) builds invalidated, and often times watch people with no involvement in the campaign alter our play experience. We even have someone banned from RPGA play for campaign fraud on this board and the LG list influencing people. It's very frustrating to wonder what is going to go away next; from non-core, I understand, but for a core source to get so altered as Wildshape only leads me to believe that Polymorph is going to be changed for the (far) worse. Well, yes and no. As Triad I was on the receiving end of the complaints constantly. And I was part of the discussions about what to change or not to change. So I am quite aware of the gap between what players want and the rules for them, both for good and bad. I assure you it is just as frustrating trying to administer a campaign and balance everything. It is also iconic in respect that shapeshifting is a common ability in many of the things that D&D is based on. Common yes, but in a fashion significantly more limited than what is available from the common polymorph spell, with or without wild shape being based on it. It is the raw power that takes it from the iconic presentation (you look different but have few abilities, or it comes with a powerful curse) to something that is overpowered for the level. Check the other discussions of it for how many people suggest just upping the level of the spell to 8th or 9th. There is a 9th level spell that does that - shapechange. Polymorph becomes redundant if raised to that level, and thus its power must be severely curtailed somehow. And that means severely curtailing wild shape, if it is based on polymorph. As for Fireball, it's balanced with other 3rd level spells based on the scale created for 3rd edition. Indeed. And yet fireball was reduced in power, while polymorph has been massively expanded. |
| Lomiat02-22-06, 11:18 AM | [QUOTE=Samwise] It is the raw power that takes it from the iconic presentation (you look different but have few abilities, or it comes with a powerful curse) to something that is overpowered for the level. Check the other discussions of it for how many people suggest just upping the level of the spell to 8th or 9th. There is a 9th level spell that does that - shapechange. Polymorph becomes redundant if raised to that level, and thus its power must be severely curtailed somehow. And that means severely curtailing wild shape, if it is based on polymorph. [QUOTE] Please remember that spellcasters don't typically have a high BAB. Thus, Polymorph isn't so fully abusive. Yes, a spellcaster can cast Polymorph on an ally and give that ally a powerful buff; however, most of the time, that buff isn't quite as much as one might expect since most fighter-types are already somewhat optimized before the Polymorph. Barbarians starting with 18 STR or more gain nothing, or rather, very little, at 8th or 9th level by becoming a Troll or Annis Hag, in comparison to simply receiving Enlarge Person. Thus the most "abusive" uses of Polymorph come from straight spellcasters who Polymorph and gain the greatest boost to physical attributes as well as multiple attacks. Nonetheless, with a 4th level spell, an arcane spellcaster is STILL not as effective a melee combatant as a fighter. Yet, a cleric with a 4th level spell, Divine Power, becomes every bit as effective a melee combatant as a straight fighter, and the cleric can quicken the spell with DMM:Q. Mathematically, then, Polymorph offers no real advantage over a spell like Divine Power, except, perhaps, that it is range: touch, instead of Personal. Finally, in game balance, one must always consider the fact that to cast a spell, one must take an action. There are only so many actions in any given combat, and most adventures make it rather difficult to buff ahead of combat. Thus, Polymorph, on its first round, will never do as much damage as a simple Fireball or Magic Missile, because it's impacting combat for all of zero damage (though, admittedly, it might matter in its first round as a defensive spell). |
| Samwise02-22-06, 11:37 AM | Please remember that spellcasters don't typically have a high BAB. Thus, Polymorph isn't so fully abusive. Yes, a spellcaster can cast Polymorph on an ally and give that ally a powerful buff; however, most of the time, that buff isn't quite as much as one might expect since most fighter-types are already somewhat optimized before the Polymorph. Barbarians starting with 18 STR or more gain nothing, or rather, very little, at 8th or 9th level by becoming a Troll or Annis Hag, in comparison to simply receiving Enlarge Person. In general, I agree. To me the most abusive element of polymorph is the natural armor boost. That is utterly ridiculous. Thus the most "abusive" uses of Polymorph come from straight spellcasters who Polymorph and gain the greatest boost to physical attributes as well as multiple attacks. Except for special movement, the only thing I ever really see non-fighters expect from Polymorph is - the natural armor boost. And as it happens, that isn't even dependent on polymorph. Half the mid level wizard or partial wizard builds I see run around as troglodytes once they are out of sight of civilization. The heck with the claw/claw/bite and multiattack, that +6 natural armor is absurd, particularly when backed up by barkskin. Finally, in game balance, one must always consider the fact that to cast a spell, one must take an action. There are only so many actions in any given combat, and most adventures make it rather difficult to buff ahead of combat. Thus, Polymorph, on its first round, will never do as much damage as a simple Fireball or Magic Missile, because it's impacting combat for all of zero damage (though, admittedly, it might matter in its first round as a defensive spell). Mostly true. Again where it becomes a problem is with alter self (at 10 min/level it can be cast as soon as you approach any location based adventure), and polymorph any object (with a durations of hours to "permanent" depending on the form. Of course that all just links in to polymorph itself being the heart of the problem, requiring changes to it to fix those. I will also note, never underestimate the value of a defensive spell. Assuming you stick with a green hag to avoid size change issues, +11 natural armor at 9th level can mean avoiding so many attacks that the cleric is free to unleash attack spells instead of saving them for healing. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-22-06, 11:56 AM | Except for special movement, the only thing I ever really see non-fighters expect from Polymorph is - the natural armor boost. And as it happens, that isn't even dependent on polymorph. Half the mid level wizard or partial wizard builds I see run around as troglodytes once they are out of sight of civilization. The heck with the claw/claw/bite and multiattack, that +6 natural armor is absurd, particularly when backed up by barkskin. So what? They trade in spells for armor. A fighter who spends their money on it can easily reach a 30+ armor class by level 10. Monsters are designed around this principle. They all have insane to-hit bonuses and insane hitpoints, made possible because of the arms race between them and the full-plate, animated tower shield fighters. Where does that leave the Wizard or Sorceror? Out in the cold. Add it up. Shield + Mage Armor + 18 Dex = AC 22. Even with Greater Mage Armor, that's only AC 24. And of course the Shield spell costs you an action in combat, or a quickened spell (there goes a 5th level slot). And now you're APL 12, and the monsters have +25 to hit you. All that work on armor class, meaningless. What's the recourse? Find some natural armor, because armor doesn't stack anymore. Mage Armor won't add together with Bracers of Armor for instance. A mage casting Polymorph might get up to a decent AC, meaning that the monsters only need a 9-10 on the die to hit them or have to stop power attacking for 15-20 points. But even if that's the case, the monster only needs to hit once or twice to kill the mage. Your assertion that polymorphing for natural armor is "broken" is meaningless. It's a survival tactic, nothing more and nothing less. Plus, Polymorph only lasts minutes per level, so the only way to walk around "all day" as a trog is to be a wildshaper, in which case you're in the same pickle as the mages thanks to the "no metal armor" restriction. |
| Iswald02-22-06, 12:18 PM | [QUOTE=Samwise] Finally, in game balance, one must always consider the fact that to cast a spell, one must take an action. There are only so many actions in any given combat, and most adventures make it rather difficult to buff ahead of combat. Thus, Polymorph, on its first round, will never do as much damage as a simple Fireball or Magic Missile, because it's impacting combat for all of zero damage (though, admittedly, it might matter in its first round as a defensive spell). Many people seem to over look this. Even if a druid is wild shaped into a dire bear, they have to give up casting a spell in order to attack. If they're casting a spell, then they can't also attack. Wildshaping or polymorphing simply provides additional options and some extra protection. |
| boolean02-22-06, 12:19 PM | And now you're APL 12, and the monsters have +25 to hit you. All that work on armor class, meaningless. What's the recourse? Find some natural armor, because armor doesn't stack anymore. Mage Armor won't add together with Bracers of Armor for instance. In my experience, that's when the arcane caster heads for miss chances. Blur, Blink, Displacement, Mirror Image, Invisibility (regular and greater). |
| Mommy was an Orc02-22-06, 12:48 PM | So what? They trade in spells for armor. A fighter who spends their money on it can easily reach a 30+ armor class by level 10. And now you're APL 12, and the monsters have +25 to hit you. All that work on armor class, meaningless. The wizard who spends their money on it can easily reach that same armor class(or better) by level 10. Then they Polymorph into a Green Hag and stack +11 onto it. Just take a level of Fighter for proficiency, Still Spell so you can cast spells in armor without ASF, and Craft Arms & Armor and Wondrous. And go out and buy the exact same gear that fighter just did. |
| CSHunt6802-22-06, 01:11 PM | Is it possible that Wizards, and to a lesser extent Druids, just aren't meant to be that good in straight-up melee combat? Compared to _Fighters_? That they've been designed, with spells in their repertoire, to be able to enter into it only under duress, as a last resort, without the staying power of characters who've been designed to do it? That they shouldn't be doing it _all the time_? Really. I realize that there are some shapeshifting PrCs which have been designed to be primarily melee fighters. I think these were probably a bad idea in the first place, but that's just my opinion, and I'm not sure what to do with them now if the Circle accepts the errata word for word. |
| rutrow42402-22-06, 01:17 PM | Monsters are designed around this principle. They all have insane to-hit bonuses and insane hitpoints, made possible because of the arms race between them and the full-plate, animated tower shield fighters. And now you're APL 12, and the monsters have +25 to hit you. All that work on armor class, meaningless. What's the recourse? Find some natural armor, because armor doesn't stack anymore. Mage Armor won't add together with Bracers of Armor for instance. This is one of the biggest issues I've had with 3e and LG in particular - scaling of melee-based foes to hit, AC, and HP. Excluding the initiative or die encounters (I've avoided many of them by avoiding meta-regionals), the worst abuses in module design I've experienced are the giant/troll/wartroll/skullcrusher ogre encounters, where they have been maxed out for killing PCs. Elite array, class levels, optimized feats, unavoidable or undetectable encounter area, full prep, and lots of consumables can make for a real tough encounter at any APL. Doubly so if no save-or-die type stuff is available to the party or the party is otherwise unoptimal (3rd encounter w/o rest, no tank, etc). For that reason alone I have no problem with druids or wizards changing form to get the natural armor or ability scores from wildshape/polymorph/alter self. Getting AC into the 30s at APL12 is not all that great, and if the wizard is casting his spells to make himself a "tank" the party will likely suffer. I think the LG rule was perfect, and that the changes made by WotC were over the top. The no HP from Con ruling is nonsensical. That said, I still think that druids were overpowered, but moreso due to natural spell (make them be wildshaped or spellcasters, not both) and spell-sharing w/ (too good) companions than by wildshape. Of course, I think clerics are overpowered (DMM: anything s/b banned) and play those often enough. This change won't cripple druids, but does take away what was a legitimate option; any druid PCs should be allowed a limited rebuild to account for the change, should it be adopted for LG. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-22-06, 01:36 PM | Bull poop. Still Spell eats up a feat, and higher level spell slots. So do the crafting feats. Side level of fighter gives up spell progression. I won't debate the utility of crafting feats, but you just burned THREE feats off of a character, plus you dumped a level of spell progression. Your argument is void. The wizard who spends their money on it can easily reach that same armor class(or better) by level 10. Then they Polymorph into a Green Hag and stack +11 onto it. Just take a level of Fighter for proficiency, Still Spell so you can cast spells in armor without ASF, and Craft Arms & Armor and Wondrous. And go out and buy the exact same gear that fighter just did. |
| JohnduBois02-22-06, 01:46 PM | So... Where are all the fighters, barbarians, and rogues complaining that they can't cast spells? Where are all the bards and warmages complaining about their limited spell lists in comparison to special abilities? Where are all the sorcerers and favored souls complaining about their limited spell selection abilities? Where are all the other classes complaining that they can't do what other classes are designed to do BETTER THAN THE PRIMARY CLASS ITSELF COULD DO? I don't see them, except for druids. Why is that? It's because players of other classes understand the idea of balance of power... If you want the AC of a fighter, be a fighter or expect to pay out the nose for it in other opportunities. Other examples abound. |
| CSHunt6802-22-06, 02:01 PM | Precisely. All this stuff about druids being nerfed now that they can't fight in melee as effectively as fighters is ... "bull poop". :) |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-22-06, 02:04 PM | Where are all the fighters, barbarians, and rogues complaining that they can't cast spells? Fighters/Barbarians (more likely, Fighter/Barbarian/PRC builds) dish out more damage than anyone else, round after round after round. Rogues complain all the time that their Sneak Attack progression is neutered by the fact that 90% of what you meet in upper-level LG is immune to sneak attacks. Where are all the bards and warmages complaining about their limited spell lists in comparison to special abilities? Did you miss the calls from Warmage players to add a few more evocations from SC to the Core list, so they didn't have to choose between Dancing Lights (Jack) and Tenser's Floating Disk (Squat) for their 3rd-level advanced learning spell? Where are all the sorcerers and favored souls complaining about their limited spell selection abilities? They make it up in spells per day. Though Sorcerors are particularly neutered by not getting a single feat other than Summon Familiar, which Wizards also get, while Wizards get a free metamagic feat every 5 levels. Where are all the other classes complaining that they can't do what other classes are designed to do BETTER THAN THE PRIMARY CLASS ITSELF COULD DO? Nowhere. However, a Druid could never do anything better than the "Primary" class itself could do. I've yet to see a Druid as a trapspringer. I've yet to see a Druid as primary damage dealer, because even when they're getting multiple attacks, the attacks are almost all at -5 to hit and they're dealing on the order of 1d6 or 1d8 plus perhaps 6 to 10 base damage. Druids are not as good as Fighters or Barbarians, because they don't get the Fighter BAB and are limited in what armor they can wear and don't get Fast Movement or any of the Barbarian's nifty stuff like DAMAGE REDUCTION. Druids are not as good boomers as Wizards or Sorcerors, because their boom spells aren't as big and are a smaller selection. Druids are not as good as Clerics, because the progression of their healing spells is slowed down. For pity's sake, they get Cure Moderate at third level. The list goes on. Want to be a Theurge build with a Druid? Arcane Hierophant can't possibly be taken until 8th level, you can start Theurge at 7th. If Druids were the end-all and be-all, if they were so massively mighty, then WAY more people would be playing them. I don't see them, except for druids. Why is that? It's because players of other classes understand the idea of balance of power... No, it's because WotC decided to give the Druid a severe beating with the nerfbat, without good reasoning to do so, and because people like you started calling the Druid players names about things you think their class could do that it couldn't. On the other hand, we've got YOU, who seem to feel that insulting people is the right way to go about your business. If you want the AC of a fighter, be a fighter or expect to pay out the nose for it in other opportunities. Other examples abound. And they DID pay through the nose for it, in feats, in limitations on equipment, in stunted or eliminated spell progression (given up to enter Nature's Warrior and Master of Many Forms). |
| CSHunt6802-22-06, 02:10 PM | However, a Druid could never do anything better than the "Primary" class itself could do. ... I've yet to see a Druid as primary damage dealer, because even when they're getting multiple attacks, the attacks are almost all at -5 to hit and they're dealing on the order of 1d6 or 1d8 plus perhaps 6 to 10 base damage. ROTFL On the other hand, we've got YOU, who seem to feel that insulting people is the right way to go about your business. Where did John insult ANYONE?? Edit your post, or I will report you. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-22-06, 02:15 PM | Where did John insult ANYONE?? Edit your post, or I will report you. He claimed Druid players do not understand the idea of balance of power. It's YOU who doesn't understand that. Or who doesn't actually play this game. I'm now not sure which it is, but those are the only explanations I can think of for your behavior. |
| CSHunt6802-22-06, 02:17 PM | Reported. Hopefully this thread will be closed. BTW, which behaviour would that be, precisely? The one where I disagree with you and say so? If that needs explanation, you shouldn't be posting in here. Some friendly advice. |
| kenobi6502-22-06, 02:23 PM | You know, Bob_the_Theurge, You take umbrage at others exceptionally easily, yet, IMO, you're pretty good at being inflammatory and dismissive yourself. In the past 2 days, you've had a Wiz_O lock one of your threads, and tell you to knock it off in another. Maybe you might consider toning it down a bit. |
| JohnduBois02-22-06, 02:24 PM | Where did John insult ANYONE?? Edit your post, or I will report you. I'm okay with the insult accusation, although it would have been far better articulated as "antagonistic". And it was meant to be so, as I feel that some of the arguments posed here have gotten a little silly. However, a Druid could never do anything better than the "Primary" class itself could do. I've yet to see a Druid as a trapspringer. I've yet to see a Druid as primary damage dealer, because even when they're getting multiple attacks, the attacks are almost all at -5 to hit and they're dealing on the order of 1d6 or 1d8 plus perhaps 6 to 10 base damage. Druid can (although probably shouldn't) function as trapspringers with Summon Nature's Ally. While I can't give you specific examples debunking the damage dealer aspect, I can tell you that my bard could (and did) do better than the stats you give using Alter Self. At fifth level. And his abilities in this regard have not improved as he gained levels, where wild shape is just getting started. While I know that wild shaping druids can't (always) compete with fighters in low or mid levels, once you start getting that high level stuff and the Natural Spell going on, things get ridiculous. I'm from a region where everyone remembers the Flame Striking raccoons. Not because they were weird (which they were), but because they were effective and deadly. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-22-06, 02:27 PM | Reported. Hopefully this thread will be closed. BTW, which behaviour would that be, precisely? The one where I disagree with you and say so? If that needs explanation, you shouldn't be posting in here. Some friendly advice. Ah. Because the best way to "win" an argument, is to spend your time making strawmen, and then when you have nothing to say trying to get a thread locked. I believe I have you pegged, and now I shall simply put you on my ignore filter. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-22-06, 02:29 PM | In the past 2 days, you've had a Wiz_O lock one of your threads, and tell you to knock it off in another. The thread was locked because I had the temerity to speak of WotC's business practices for what they really are. I accept that they're going to do things like that. I still spoke my mind, so be it. |
| kenobi6502-22-06, 02:32 PM | The thread was locked because I had the temerity to speak of WotC's business practices for what they really are. I accept that they're going to do things like that. I still spoke my mind, so be it. The thread was locked because it was rapidly devolving into a flame war. Go visit the Star Wars RPG board, and you'll see rampant criticism of WotC's business practices. That's not enough to get locked, trust me. |
| JohnduBois02-22-06, 02:35 PM | I'm just going to put this out there, since I'm the one that opened the Pandora's Box of "druids are complaining when other classes don't", and in this rebuild, it is true that druids got hit harder than other classes (apart from DMM:Q clerics, who mostly are upset that their worst min/max tool got taken away). The rebuild of wild shape does change the power level of druids significantly, and raising an eyebrow is understood. This kind of gainsaying, however, doesn't really help anyone. For example, look at when Leap Attack and Staggering Strike were restricted. People asked for information, but the kind of inflammation in this thread was nowhere to be seen (or wisely kept in regional discussion groups). There weren't any barbarians saying, "OMGWTFBBQ you nrefed my character Ihateyou!" What is it about this issue that causes so many people to go nuts? |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-22-06, 02:41 PM | Druid can (although probably shouldn't) function as trapspringers with Summon Nature's Ally. Wizards, Sorcerors, and Clerics can do the same with Summon Monster. So? If the trap has a reset (most do) or it's a falling block that'll mess up your travel route, what do you do now? While I can't give you specific examples debunking the damage dealer aspect, I can tell you that my bard could (and did) do better than the stats you give using Alter Self. At fifth level. And his abilities in this regard have not improved as he gained levels, where wild shape is just getting started. So? He's a BARD. Try taking Ironskin Chant, or any of the other things available Just To Bards, instead of spending your time fuming about how some class can do something you can't and having schadenfreude about getting them nerfed. While I know that wild shaping druids can't (always) compete with fighters in low or mid levels, once you start getting that high level stuff and the Natural Spell going on, things get ridiculous. I'm from a region where everyone remembers the Flame Striking raccoons. Not because they were weird (which they were), but because they were effective and deadly. Everything at high level gets ridiculous. Clerics start pumping caster level up with Divine Spellpower to do some cheesy things. Barbarian/Fighter/Pious Templars walk around with Paladin spells for self-buffing, Rage, ridiculous to-hit bonuses, and regularly exceed 200 damage per round. "Ridiculous" is relative. A wildshaped Druid with Natural Spell - okay, so he can either full attack OR he can cast spells. He might be using it for some hitpoints or some natural armor boost. He's still just as vulnerable as anyone else to stat point drain, level drain, touch attacks, grapples, and any other cheese a mod author throws at us. Master of Many Forms? Great. He's got more options. He's also got a lot less spells, so less self-buffing there. A 15th level MoMF versus a 12th level Redcap sorceror with Practiced Spellcaster tossing off Evard's Black Tentacles - guess what, the MoMF still has a better than even chance of being stuck inside that. If you're going to claim they were somehow overpowered in a way to justify this ridiculous nerfing, bring some numbers. Please. I wait for them. |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-22-06, 02:53 PM | I'm just going to put this out there, since I'm the one that opened the Pandora's Box of "druids are complaining when other classes don't", and in this rebuild, it is true that druids got hit harder than other classes (apart from DMM:Q clerics, who mostly are upset that their worst min/max tool got taken away). The staggering consensus (except for a few people who still claim DMM itself is overpowered) was that the Nightsticks were what was broken, because it was those items and not the DMM itself that was the linchpin of the cheese. When you removed the Nightsticks, it looks a whole lot less broken, even if someone decides to build an 18 Charisma cleric with Extra Turning to try to cheese it out the whole way. The rebuild of wild shape does change the power level of druids significantly, and raising an eyebrow is understood. This kind of gainsaying, however, doesn't really help anyone. For example, look at when Leap Attack and Staggering Strike were restricted. People asked for information, but the kind of inflammation in this thread was nowhere to be seen (or wisely kept in regional discussion groups). The reasoning given made perfect sense, and it had been discussed with the players as to why the items in question were broken BEFORE the nerfing happened. Everyone knew that unscrupulous players were trying to deliberately misread LA to do more damage than it does. Everyone knew that the SS card was broken because it was not risked for its reward. This came completely out of the blue, no warning, no discussion, no nothing. There weren't any barbarians saying, "OMGWTFBBQ you nrefed my character Ihateyou!" What is it about this issue that causes so many people to go nuts? A) It's incredibly poorly thought out. B) They didn't bother consulting the players before doing it. C) Hell, they didn't even let our Circle know it was coming down the pipe. D) Have I mentioned the mechanics are ridiculous? E) Nobody, before this, EVER made mention "oh by the way, Druids with wildshaped are overpowered." Yes, the Master Transmogrifist class was Restricted, but that was for legitimate reasons regarding the fact that the class itself is poorly worded and nigh-unworkable. Master of Many Forms - a class that owes its entire existence to Wildshape - is a Core class. The Circle didn't even see it as powerful enough to Restrict, yet it more than any other class just took the major brunt of nerfing from the supposed "polymorph" errata. Chew on that. |
| Lomiat02-22-06, 02:54 PM | The rebuild of wild shape does change the power level of druids significantly, and raising an eyebrow is understood. This kind of gainsaying, however, doesn't really help anyone. For example, look at when Leap Attack and Staggering Strike were restricted. People asked for information, but the kind of inflammation in this thread was nowhere to be seen (or wisely kept in regional discussion groups). There weren't any barbarians saying, "OMGWTFBBQ you nrefed my character Ihateyou!" What is it about this issue that causes so many people to go nuts? There's no place for some of the rudeness that has unfortunately entered this thread, but to answer your question (partially), I believe that from what I've seen here, and in other places, there's a fundamental difference of opinion over what the actual power and impact of polymorph/wildshape is. Those in favor of wildshape/polymorph (by the old rules) maintain that because A) other characters are optimized in different ways, B) the abilities take actions, and C) the limitations currently in LG prevent most abuses, the wildshape/polymorph gains do not make a caster better than a fighter or even as good as a fighter in combat. Those who believe wildshape/polymorph need errata seem to maintain the abilities allow spellcasters to become better melee combatants than primary melee fighters, while in no way hampering their primary function as spellcasters. In this sense, if this argument was correct, the spell and ability would, in fact, be abusive. I find it odd, meanwhile, that no one addresses the "broken" nature of cleric combat spells (Righteous Might, Divine Power, Divine Favor). This is not a flame. This is a curiousity. Anyway, I find myself in the first camp. Even though I love being able to Polymorph things, more often than not, specifically because of my concern about the effectiveness of my decisions, I choose NOT to cast Polymorph more often than not, preparing other spells instead: Assay Spell Resistance, Evard's, Greater Invis, Dim Door, Enervation, etc. |
| CSHunt6802-22-06, 03:12 PM | Wizards, Sorcerors, and Clerics can do the same with Summon Monster. And waste a spell, with a limited duration, to do so. Nonsense tactic. So? If the trap has a reset (most do) or it's a falling block that'll mess up your travel route, what do you do now? Whatever any other party will do. But, you've found the trap. For free. So? He's a BARD. Try taking Ironskin Chant, or any of the other things available Just To Bards, instead of spending your time fuming about how some class can do something you can't and having schadenfreude about getting them nerfed. This argument is PERFECTLY turned on its head for Druids. Next. :) Everything at high level gets ridiculous. This is not a defense of your position. Clerics start pumping caster level up with Divine Spellpower to do some cheesy things. Barbarian/Fighter/Pious Templars walk around with Paladin spells for self-buffing, Rage, ridiculous to-hit bonuses, and regularly exceed 200 damage per round. And Druids can do all kinds of OTHER cheesy things, other than Wild Shape. Do you want some examples? "Ridiculous" is relative. A wildshaped Druid with Natural Spell - okay, so he can either full attack OR he can cast spells. He might be using it for some hitpoints or some natural armor boost. He's still just as vulnerable as anyone else to stat point drain, level drain, touch attacks, grapples, and any other cheese a mod author throws at us. He can EITHER full attack with superb bonuses, OR he can cast at FULL caster level with FULL caster progression. What's wrong with that picture? He might be using it for "some" hit points - yeah, like 80 - or "some" natural armour boost - yeah, like +11. Yes, he's still just as vulnerable as the poor fighter to those other things. So? Master of Many Forms? Great. He's got more options. He's also got a lot less spells, so less self-buffing there. A 15th level MoMF versus a 12th level Redcap sorceror with Practiced Spellcaster tossing off Evard's Black Tentacles - guess what, the MoMF still has a better than even chance of being stuck inside that. If you were defending MoMFs, fine. But you're not. You're defending the position that Druids aren't STILL just as powerful as the other classes. Which is a position I have voided (to use your terminology). If you're going to claim they were somehow overpowered in a way to justify this ridiculous nerfing, bring some numbers. Please. I wait for them. You clearly haven't played much 3.5. That's the only explanation I can come up with. ;) |
| CSHunt6802-22-06, 03:18 PM | This came completely out of the blue, no warning, no discussion, no nothing. You are not entitled to "advance warning" of changes. They will ALL seem to come "out of the blue". Next. A) It's incredibly poorly thought out. In YOUR opinion. In the opinion of others, it's just fine. B) They didn't bother consulting the players before doing it. SOME players were consulted. In fact, I'd wager that LOTS of the people in charge of this errata are, in fact, players - some of them, mentioned by name, in the LG campaign. YOU happened not to be one of them. Get over it. They are under NO obligation to consult you, nor any significant segment of the LG community. C) Hell, they didn't even let our Circle know it was coming down the pipe. Our Circle can make up its own mind. D) Have I mentioned the mechanics are ridiculous? Yes, in case you'd forgotten. Your opinion has been registered. Others disagree. Next. E) Nobody, before this, EVER made mention "oh by the way, Druids with wildshaped are overpowered." Yes, the Master Transmogrifist class was Restricted, but that was for legitimate reasons regarding the fact that the class itself is poorly worded and nigh-unworkable. The Druids are wicked awesome in 3.5 is common knowledge amongst power-gamers. Perhaps, again, you just haven't played that much. Master of Many Forms - a class that owes its entire existence to Wildshape - is a Core class. The Circle didn't even see it as powerful enough to Restrict, yet it more than any other class just took the major brunt of nerfing from the supposed "polymorph" errata. Chew on that. I guess MoMFs are screwed, if the Circle accepts the errata. Chew on THAT. |
| redgamer02-22-06, 03:40 PM | I find it odd, meanwhile, that no one addresses the "broken" nature of cleric combat spells (Righteous Might, Divine Power, Divine Favor). This is not a flame. This is a curiousity. There has been discussion about the broken nature of cleric spells. Just not recently on this board. |
| theliel02-22-06, 04:12 PM | I'm okay with the insult accusation, although it would have been far better articulated as "antagonistic". And it was meant to be so, as I feel that some of the arguments posed here have gotten a little silly. Druid can (although probably shouldn't) function as trapspringers with Summon Nature's Ally. While I can't give you specific examples debunking the damage dealer aspect, I can tell you that my bard could (and did) do better than the stats you give using Alter Self. At fifth level. And his abilities in this regard have not improved as he gained levels, where wild shape is just getting started. While I know that wild shaping druids can't (always) compete with fighters in low or mid levels, once you start getting that high level stuff and the Natural Spell going on, things get ridiculous. I'm from a region where everyone remembers the Flame Striking raccoons. Not because they were weird (which they were), but because they were effective and deadly. well, you could always loose your druid powers for abusing the natural world... and for the record, the raccons are not druids in wild shape, they are awakened raccoons who are druids (and a wizzard) as such only the spellcasting level is any real problem here. |
| theliel02-22-06, 04:15 PM | The problem is that everything can be cheased out. Druids are attractive to power gamers using specific feats to achieve a specific end. they will shelve thier characters and go onto playing self-buffing clerics of doom or just a strigh wizzard, or a spiked chain tripping fighter. the average druid player, who didn't min/max? yha. fun times that. 3.x (and all editions of d&D) are increadably twinkable, it's the nature of the beast. the rules change already has been updated twice due to logical fallicies, it just needs differnt mechanics. |
| Samwise02-22-06, 04:26 PM | What's the recourse? Find some natural armor, because armor doesn't stack anymore. Mage Armor won't add together with Bracers of Armor for instance. They never stacked. So this is an irrelevant point. Your assertion that polymorphing for natural armor is "broken" is meaningless. It's a survival tactic, nothing more and nothing less. Plus, Polymorph only lasts minutes per level, so the only way to walk around "all day" as a trog is to be a wildshaper, in which case you're in the same pickle as the mages thanks to the "no metal armor" restriction. It is quite meaningful. Just because you don't agree does not remove the basic content of my critique. The benefits of the various spells are disproportionate to the benefits they provide. Alter Self provides a +6 natural armor bonus in a 2nd level spell with a 3rd level caster. Barkskin requires a 12th level caster with a 1st level spell to provide a +5 bonus. With the durations, those might be equitable, except that Alter Self also provides other benefits. That makes it unbalanced. Now compare Polymorph and how much it can provide. A +2-10 unnamed bonus to three ability scores, a +3-11 natural armor bonus, special attacks, additional movement speeds, and more. That would take at least three other spells, most providing lesser benefits, to even come close to matching. And that makes it an improperly balanced spell. |
| Objulen02-22-06, 04:43 PM | 2. The errata and such involving Polymorph is NOT an LG-limited phenomenon. Mark of Heroes did not have the same restrictions that LG did, and that's a significant part of the reason it got banned. The errata was an effort to not ban base classes in campaigns that chose to disallow Polymorph. Was this the best course? I don't know. Was it better than banning druids and golems in Mark of Heroes? Absolutely. My question is why Wizard's didn't take a page out of LG's book and just make the same errata? It was a good fix, and far better than simply banning the spell. And what would polymorph have to do with golem or warforged in Mark of Heroes? |
| Objulen02-22-06, 04:59 PM | It is quite meaningful. Just because you don't agree does not remove the basic content of my critique. The benefits of the various spells are disproportionate to the benefits they provide. Alter Self provides a +6 natural armor bonus in a 2nd level spell with a 3rd level caster. Barkskin requires a 12th level caster with a 1st level spell to provide a +5 bonus. With the durations, those might be equitable, except that Alter Self also provides other benefits. That makes it unbalanced. Now compare Polymorph and how much it can provide. A +2-10 unnamed bonus to three ability scores, a +3-11 natural armor bonus, special attacks, additional movement speeds, and more. That would take at least three other spells, most providing lesser benefits, to even come close to matching. And that makes it an improperly balanced spell. This is true to an extent, but there are ways to fix it other than screwing druids. First, Alter Self's only real abuseability is from it's possible NA bonus. Why not make it so you only get +1 NA per caster level max? That way you won't have lvl 3 wizards running around for 30 minutes with +6 NA. The comparison with Bark Skin isn't entirely valid either. Druids can wear armor and they have better combat abilities. The armor bonus contributes far more to the whole for a Druid than it does for a wizard, and Alter Self is personal range. As for Polymorph, generally, the more powerful forms remove items, and possibly casting as well, which helps keep its balance -- it's not only what the spell gives you, but what you have to get up to get it. There are several ways to give it a temporary fix that would have been far better than simply giving it the axe. -Change Polymorph's range to Personal -Make Polymorph Any Object have the duration of Polymorph when used on yourself, or even make it a better version of Polymorph that allows Outsiders, Undead, Plants, and Constructs. -Restrict allowable forms -Disallow casting while Polymorphed -Cap the bonuses based on caster level -Etc. Removing a spell from the game and retooling so many different abilities is a drastic step that wasn't really warranted. If Wizards wanted to band-aid the situation until they could come up with a permanent fix, there were better ways to doing it than this. |
| Objulen02-22-06, 05:03 PM | E) Nobody, before this, EVER made mention "oh by the way, Druids with wildshaped are overpowered." Yes, the Master Transmogrifist class was Restricted, but that was for legitimate reasons regarding the fact that the class itself is poorly worded and nigh-unworkable. A bit of an aside, but what's wrong with the MT? I made a thread on the matter http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=581373, and I have yet to see a compelling reason to restrict the class in LG, given the existing restrictions to Polymorph. |
| Samwise02-22-06, 05:27 PM | My question is why Wizard's didn't take a page out of LG's book and just make the same errata? It was a good fix, and far better than simply banning the spell. Errata has to work for all players, not just those in specific RPGA campaigns. Just as the same house rules as to what allow don't work for all RPGA campaigns, the house rules for any one won't work for the game system as a whole. And by fixing the system as a whole, the need for house rules is lessened considerably. |
| Samwise02-22-06, 05:39 PM | This is true to an extent, but there are ways to fix it other than screwing druids. Well I don't think this is specifically screwing druids, but I agree with most of your suggested alternatives other than limited forms. (Which is fine for an RPGA campaign, but not for the spell in general.) In particular, I'd start with a focus on making polymorph personal. Add in a few caster level caps for it, and alter self, and they are pretty much fixed. Polymorph other can, generally, continue to be absurd, but then it is an 8th level spell, and likely just needs the type change removed, as does polymorph. (And general wild shape, a druid shouldn't be able to try and awaken himself.) And indeed, this is little more than a band-aid while trying to fix the problem. I think I've been very clear that all such are bad by default, no matter how good they may be otherwise. To channel Yoda: "Errata completely or do not errata, there is no temporary fix." |
| Bob_the_Theurge02-22-06, 05:41 PM | Errata has to work for all players, not just those in specific RPGA campaigns. Just as the same house rules as to what allow don't work for all RPGA campaigns, the house rules for any one won't work for the game system as a whole. And by fixing the system as a whole, the need for house rules is lessened considerably. Except that this is proving to work in even less places than a well thought-out house rule does. |
| Objulen02-22-06, 06:32 PM | Errata has to work for all players, not just those in specific RPGA campaigns. Just as the same house rules as to what allow don't work for all RPGA campaigns, the house rules for any one won't work for the game system as a whole. And by fixing the system as a whole, the need for house rules is lessened considerably. I was unclear. I didn't mean a permanent errata, but a temporary fix until they figure out what they want to do. |
| Objulen02-22-06, 06:34 PM | Well I don't think this is specifically screwing druids, but I agree with most of your suggested alternatives other than limited forms. (Which is fine for an RPGA campaign, but not for the spell in general.) I don't mean that there was intent to screw druids, just that the effect is that druids are getting screwed. |
| clannagh02-22-06, 06:59 PM | Most of this discussion seems to be based in opinions with examples dragged up later to try and justify the predecided opinion. I will not enter into the discussion about druids being overpowered as to be quite honest out of the 70 odd local RPGA/LG registered players no more than a handful play druids and they all play more for character. I actually have no first hand experience of any power gamer ever taking a druid. Locally they tend towards woodelfs with spiked chains, clerics and sorcerors (which apparently according to these boards are nerfed????) The odd annoyance about the druid characters locally has generally been unreasonable and come more from young male players whose min/maxed fighter with great sword is outperformed in combat by what they expect to be an inferior class and to make it worse in a lot of cases here locally played by a girl there own age. The criticism then proceeds to draw on "facts" like the way druids are overpowered in online games like NWN or WoW most of which are not even D&D based. I am quite sure there are power-gamed nasty combat oriented druids out there but we do not come across them here. I also find it odd that people take someone powering up a particular class so personally. The complaints do not seem to be about NPC druids but other players ? is this an ego thing ? I am not quite sure where all the stress is coming from. I am also a little sceptical as to exactly how overpowered a combat druid is compared to a min/max spike chain comabt reflex improved trip etc fighter or a well built cleric or mage. |
| WizO_Shadow02-27-06, 09:03 PM | I applaud those who can "roll with the punches" so-to-speak. Thank you for your patience. WizO_Shadow *click* |