Pouncing Griffons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Pouncing Griffons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
andrew.pierson
01-12-07, 11:14 AM A griffon gets a full attack on a dive due to its pounce ability. Does it get the diving +2 to hit and a x2 damage multiplier bonus for the first, or for all its attacks?

advTHANKSance
CrystalBlue
01-12-07, 11:25 AM It would stand to reason that he gets the x2 damage to everything. Like, if you power attack for full in a full attack, all of your attacks are power attacks.
katrick
01-12-07, 01:37 PM Does that apply to Bronze Griffons of the Wondrous Figurine sort?
There has to be somethng other than fly and the odd grapple for 20,000gp
marty
clik_ml
01-13-07, 06:48 AM It would stand to reason that he gets the x2 damage to everything. Like, if you power attack for full in a full attack, all of your attacks are power attacks.

Or rather, +2 to all attacks for charging, and x2 damage for no attacks (since there is no reason for them to get doubled damage... I really doubt they're wielding lances).
andrew.pierson
01-13-07, 10:28 AM Or rather, +2 to all attacks for charging, and x2 damage for no attacks (since there is no reason for them to get doubled damage... I really doubt they're wielding lances).

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly

A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage.

And http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce

When a creature with [pounce] makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

These are the two references I'm trying to gain some clarity on. Any creature who dives can get a single attack at +2 to hit and x2 damage, but how does pounce interact with this?
andrew.pierson
01-13-07, 10:32 AM Does that apply to Bronze Griffons of the Wondrous Figurine sort?
There has to be somethng other than fly and the odd grapple for 20,000gp
marty

Yes. From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bronzeGriffon
When animated, a bronze griffon acts in all ways like a normal griffon under the command of its possessor.
Samwise
01-14-07, 03:59 AM These are the two references I'm trying to gain some clarity on. Any creature who dives can get a single attack at +2 to hit and x2 damage, but how does the pounce feat interact with this?

Pounce isn't a feat.
But I'd say the interaction is pretty simple:

You can Pounce or you can Dive.
You can not do both.
andrew.pierson
01-14-07, 10:04 AM Pounce isn't a feat.
But I'd say the interaction is pretty simple:

You can Pounce or you can Dive.
You can not do both.

So the line, "A dive attack works just like a charge", does not imply equivalence! That was my mistake! I thought anything that affected a charge could be applied to a dive.

While the wording does not support this view, I still think that a dive is essentially a flying charge, with the damage multiplier being gained for the extra decent speed. The rules in this case might be simpler if they said, "A dive attack is just like a charge, and can be substituted for one any time the diving creature moves a minimum of..."

--Andy
clannagh
01-14-07, 05:42 PM I would work on the basis that any attack that counts as a charge gets the bonus.

My reading would be that if the pounce attacks get the +2 attack bonus of charging then it also gets the double damage.

If however you interpret pounce as only gives the +2 for charging on the first attack then only that attack gets it.

This situation seems to be one that is going to have table variance as RAW doesnt quite cover it.
shuntsbe
01-16-07, 04:14 AM Pounce isn't a feat.
But I'd say the interaction is pretty simple:

You can Pounce or you can Dive.
You can not do both.

Indeed. Pounce = full attack at normal damage.
Dive = talons only at double damage. Not both.

Note a Griffon can Pounce while on the ground,
but cannot Dive since that requires Flying down.
andrew.pierson
01-17-07, 12:44 PM Indeed. Pounce = full attack at normal damage.
Dive = talons only at double damage. Not both.

Note a Griffon can Pounce while on the ground,
but cannot Dive since that requires Flying down.

Since a dive "works just like a charge", the griffon only gets a single melee attack at double damage when diving. The way I interpret it, the griffon could still charge and pounce from the air, even if descending enough to satisfy the requirements of a dive. In other words, it isn't forced to execute a dive.

I realize you weren't explicitly advocating this position, but I don't want anyone else to get confused.
Eagle Prince
01-17-07, 08:42 PM The griffon can use dive + pounce, or charge + pounce, it says that much in the description (if a griffon dives upon or charges a foe...)

Why I think only the first attack would get double damage, charge/dive and full attack are different kinds of actions. IE, trip and disarm both use the attack action. An ability that gives a +4 on trip doesn't also give a +4 to disarm; they might both use the 'attack' action, but they are different kinds of actions. Charge/dive and full attack are both full-round actions, but they are still different types of actions.
andrew.pierson
01-18-07, 12:54 PM The griffon can use dive + pounce, or charge + pounce, it says that much in the description (if a griffon dives upon or charges a foe...)

Ok, so Samwise was wrong about that one. Thanks for setting us straight!

Why I think only the first attack would get double damage, charge/dive and full attack are different kinds of actions. IE, trip and disarm both use the attack action. An ability that gives a +4 on trip doesn't also give a +4 to disarm; they might both use the 'attack' action, but they are different kinds of actions. Charge/dive and full attack are both full-round actions, but they are still different types of actions.

Ok, I've come full circle now. :confused: Let's look at the wording again, because I think I disagree with your logic here.

If a griffon dives upon or charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
[When diving] it can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage.

From these two statements it looks like the griffon gets 2 claw and two rake attacks, all at double damage. It does NOT get its bite attack, because that is forbidden in a dive.

I think all the attacks should be at x2 damage becuase the diving text says nothing about limiting the bonus to one attack. To the contrary it uses the word "attacks", directly stating that multiple attacks, if possible, are allowed.
kjenks
01-19-07, 08:46 AM A griffon can clearly make a diving charge and pounce at the same time.

There are ambiguous rules about whether or not it gets the +2 to attack (and double damage on all of its claw or talon attacks) or just one of its attacks during the pounce.

Here's the ambiguity:

SRD
===
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above).

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
====

So, that's a single attack at the end of a charge. However, the Pounce ability gives an exception to that rule:

SRD
===
Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack -- including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.
===

That rule allows multiple attacks at the end of a charge, but the Pounce ability does not specify whether or not the creature gets the +2 attack bonus on all of its attacks or just one of its attacks.

Likewise, the diving charge rule that Andrew quoted says nothing explicity about whether or not the creature inflicts double damage with all of its claw or talon attacks or just one, but there is a clue that it might apply to all of these attacks: The rule says "attacks" plural, not attack singular.

SRD
===
A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage.
===

Personally, I give the pouncer +2 on all of his attacks, and a pouncing diving charge critter or a pouncing Spirited Charge rider or a pouncing mounted lancer would get double or triple damage on all of his attacks at the end of a charge. But I recognize that the rules are not explicit about this, so I'll accept a DM call that the charger only gets +2 and other benefits of charging on the first attack.
Samwise
01-19-07, 04:07 PM I think the griffon entry in the MM needs some clarification.
Dive says only claw/talon attacks.
Pounce says all attacks.
Those two are simply incompatible without a specific exemption or explanation.
kjenks
01-19-07, 09:38 PM They're not really incompatible.

A griffon's full attack is "Bite +11 melee (2d6+4) and 2 claws +8 melee (1d4+2)." On a diving charge, with pounce, he'd get double damage with the claws, but no increase in damage with the bite, and he'd get +2 on all attacks, like this:

Bite +12 melee (2d6+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (2d4+4)

On a critical hit (20/x2), the bite would inflict 2d6+8, but because of the doubling rules, a critical with a claw would inflict 3d4+6.
Samwise
01-19-07, 09:42 PM The incompatibility is the bite attack.
Pounce says you get it, Dive says you don't.
Which one takes precedence?
kjenks
01-19-07, 09:47 PM The incompatibility is the bite attack.
Pounce says you get it, Dive says you don't.
Which one takes precedence?

Ah, I see. I'd missed that part. I guess if the griffon gets double damage with its claws, it doesn't get to bite.
andrew.pierson
01-20-07, 10:50 AM It seems that the precedence should be with the dive. You get all attacks, but not the bite. But what about the rake attacks that are made with the rear claws? The SRD says about Rake:

...a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe.

And the griffon gets rake attacks as part of its pounce. So, the diving attacks should be:

2 claws +10 melee (2d4+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (2d6+4)

All the while getting a -2 on its AC.
Samwise
01-20-07, 10:54 AM Just to be clear, I don't know for sure.
I would think, from the text and as others have suggested, that they do just get the claws and rake and no bite. That is still quite nasty with the double damage.
Then again, getting obsessive, which the rules constantly do, a "rake" is not listed as a "claw" or "talon," merely described as one. Silly, but then we've got square horses.
(Which griffons eat. Hence the origin of the "square meal.")
:D
Samwise
01-22-07, 01:39 PM According to CustServ:
Q:
How does a griffon, or any other creature, Pounce and Dive at the same time?

Pounce allows a creature to use all of its attacks, including its rake, on a charge.

Dive (under Movement Modes on pages 311 and 312 of the DMG) works "like a charge" but only attack with claws/talons, and do double damage.

Do griffons have an exemption from the normal rules for Dive that allow them to bite and rake when they Dive?
If a creature has two claw attacks, like a hippogriff, do they get both attacks when they Dive?

A:
If the pouncing and diving creature has multiple claw attacks, then it gets them all during the pounce/dive. Likewise, because they depend upon claws/talons, the creature would be allowed to rake. However they would not be able to bite, regardless of the pounce ability. The hippogriff doesn't have pounce, and so would only be allowed a single claw attack in a dive.

This time the answer is a lot simpler than the question. :P
So:
Hippogriff - 1 claw, double damage.
Griffon - 2 claws and 2 rakes, double damage, no bite. That is still gonna leave one heck of a mark.
Britt
01-22-07, 01:44 PM From what rule did they derive "no bite"?
Samwise
01-22-07, 01:48 PM From what rule did they derive "no bite"?

From the text for Dive. It says you can only make claw/talon attacks.
That was the main question, which takes precedence, Dive or Pounce in regards to whether you get a bite attack. The answer is Dive.
Britt
01-22-07, 01:52 PM Ahh, I don't have my books with me. That makes sense and would probably be how I would rule.
clannagh
01-22-07, 05:39 PM From the text for Dive. It says you can only make claw/talon attacks.
That was the main question, which takes precedence, Dive or Pounce in regards to whether you get a bite attack. The answer is Dive.

though there is still the issue of critters with multiple claw/talon attacks
Samwise
01-22-07, 11:53 PM though there is still the issue of critters with multiple claw/talon attacks

That was answered.
If it has Pounce it gets all of them.
If it doesn't, it makes only one attack.
pimeister
01-31-07, 12:52 AM I previously had a discussion with some LG friends about this, and I would rule that something flying with pounce and claws/talons could use pounce to get in the extra claw attacks it had. So it is whether or not you want to hit a whole lot of times, or fewer times with double damage. Up to the controller of the monster, or in our case, character.
CdrcJsn
01-31-07, 06:22 PM I sincerely hope nobody is thinking of making one of those halfling rider uber griffon mounts...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
andrew.pierson 01-12-07, 11:14 AM	A griffon gets a full attack on a dive due to its pounce ability. Does it get the diving +2 to hit and a x2 damage multiplier bonus for the first, or for all its attacks? advTHANKSance
CrystalBlue 01-12-07, 11:25 AM	It would stand to reason that he gets the x2 damage to everything. Like, if you power attack for full in a full attack, all of your attacks are power attacks.
katrick 01-12-07, 01:37 PM	Does that apply to Bronze Griffons of the Wondrous Figurine sort? There has to be somethng other than fly and the odd grapple for 20,000gp marty
clik_ml 01-13-07, 06:48 AM	It would stand to reason that he gets the x2 damage to everything. Like, if you power attack for full in a full attack, all of your attacks are power attacks. Or rather, +2 to all attacks for charging, and x2 damage for no attacks (since there is no reason for them to get doubled damage... I really doubt they're wielding lances).
andrew.pierson 01-13-07, 10:28 AM	Or rather, +2 to all attacks for charging, and x2 damage for no attacks (since there is no reason for them to get doubled damage... I really doubt they're wielding lances). From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. And http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce When a creature with [pounce] makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. These are the two references I'm trying to gain some clarity on. Any creature who dives can get a single attack at +2 to hit and x2 damage, but how does pounce interact with this?
andrew.pierson 01-13-07, 10:32 AM	Does that apply to Bronze Griffons of the Wondrous Figurine sort? There has to be somethng other than fly and the odd grapple for 20,000gp marty Yes. From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bronzeGriffon When animated, a bronze griffon acts in all ways like a normal griffon under the command of its possessor.
Samwise 01-14-07, 03:59 AM	These are the two references I'm trying to gain some clarity on. Any creature who dives can get a single attack at +2 to hit and x2 damage, but how does the pounce feat interact with this? Pounce isn't a feat. But I'd say the interaction is pretty simple: You can Pounce or you can Dive. You can not do both.
andrew.pierson 01-14-07, 10:04 AM	Pounce isn't a feat. But I'd say the interaction is pretty simple: You can Pounce or you can Dive. You can not do both. So the line, "A dive attack works just like a charge", does not imply equivalence! That was my mistake! I thought anything that affected a charge could be applied to a dive. While the wording does not support this view, I still think that a dive is essentially a flying charge, with the damage multiplier being gained for the extra decent speed. The rules in this case might be simpler if they said, "A dive attack is just like a charge, and can be substituted for one any time the diving creature moves a minimum of..." --Andy
clannagh 01-14-07, 05:42 PM	I would work on the basis that any attack that counts as a charge gets the bonus. My reading would be that if the pounce attacks get the +2 attack bonus of charging then it also gets the double damage. If however you interpret pounce as only gives the +2 for charging on the first attack then only that attack gets it. This situation seems to be one that is going to have table variance as RAW doesnt quite cover it.
shuntsbe 01-16-07, 04:14 AM	Pounce isn't a feat. But I'd say the interaction is pretty simple: You can Pounce or you can Dive. You can not do both. Indeed. Pounce = full attack at normal damage. Dive = talons only at double damage. Not both. Note a Griffon can Pounce while on the ground, but cannot Dive since that requires Flying down.
andrew.pierson 01-17-07, 12:44 PM	Indeed. Pounce = full attack at normal damage. Dive = talons only at double damage. Not both. Note a Griffon can Pounce while on the ground, but cannot Dive since that requires Flying down. Since a dive "works just like a charge", the griffon only gets a single melee attack at double damage when diving. The way I interpret it, the griffon could still charge and pounce from the air, even if descending enough to satisfy the requirements of a dive. In other words, it isn't forced to execute a dive. I realize you weren't explicitly advocating this position, but I don't want anyone else to get confused.
Eagle Prince 01-17-07, 08:42 PM	The griffon can use dive + pounce, or charge + pounce, it says that much in the description (if a griffon dives upon or charges a foe...) Why I think only the first attack would get double damage, charge/dive and full attack are different kinds of actions. IE, trip and disarm both use the attack action. An ability that gives a +4 on trip doesn't also give a +4 to disarm; they might both use the 'attack' action, but they are different kinds of actions. Charge/dive and full attack are both full-round actions, but they are still different types of actions.
andrew.pierson 01-18-07, 12:54 PM	The griffon can use dive + pounce, or charge + pounce, it says that much in the description (if a griffon dives upon or charges a foe...) Ok, so Samwise was wrong about that one. Thanks for setting us straight! Why I think only the first attack would get double damage, charge/dive and full attack are different kinds of actions. IE, trip and disarm both use the attack action. An ability that gives a +4 on trip doesn't also give a +4 to disarm; they might both use the 'attack' action, but they are different kinds of actions. Charge/dive and full attack are both full-round actions, but they are still different types of actions. Ok, I've come full circle now. :confused: Let's look at the wording again, because I think I disagree with your logic here. If a griffon dives upon or charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks. [When diving] it can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. From these two statements it looks like the griffon gets 2 claw and two rake attacks, all at double damage. It does NOT get its bite attack, because that is forbidden in a dive. I think all the attacks should be at x2 damage becuase the diving text says nothing about limiting the bonus to one attack. To the contrary it uses the word "attacks", directly stating that multiple attacks, if possible, are allowed.
kjenks 01-19-07, 08:46 AM	A griffon can clearly make a diving charge and pounce at the same time. There are ambiguous rules about whether or not it gets the +2 to attack (and double damage on all of its claw or talon attacks) or just one of its attacks during the pounce. Here's the ambiguity: SRD === Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn. A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above). Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge. ==== So, that's a single attack at the end of a charge. However, the Pounce ability gives an exception to that rule: SRD === Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack -- including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability. === That rule allows multiple attacks at the end of a charge, but the Pounce ability does not specify whether or not the creature gets the +2 attack bonus on all of its attacks or just one of its attacks. Likewise, the diving charge rule that Andrew quoted says nothing explicity about whether or not the creature inflicts double damage with all of its claw or talon attacks or just one, but there is a clue that it might apply to all of these attacks: The rule says "attacks" plural, not attack singular. SRD === A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. === Personally, I give the pouncer +2 on all of his attacks, and a pouncing diving charge critter or a pouncing Spirited Charge rider or a pouncing mounted lancer would get double or triple damage on all of his attacks at the end of a charge. But I recognize that the rules are not explicit about this, so I'll accept a DM call that the charger only gets +2 and other benefits of charging on the first attack.
Samwise 01-19-07, 04:07 PM	I think the griffon entry in the MM needs some clarification. Dive says only claw/talon attacks. Pounce says all attacks. Those two are simply incompatible without a specific exemption or explanation.
kjenks 01-19-07, 09:38 PM	They're not really incompatible. A griffon's full attack is "Bite +11 melee (2d6+4) and 2 claws +8 melee (1d4+2)." On a diving charge, with pounce, he'd get double damage with the claws, but no increase in damage with the bite, and he'd get +2 on all attacks, like this: Bite +12 melee (2d6+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (2d4+4) On a critical hit (20/x2), the bite would inflict 2d6+8, but because of the doubling rules, a critical with a claw would inflict 3d4+6.
Samwise 01-19-07, 09:42 PM	The incompatibility is the bite attack. Pounce says you get it, Dive says you don't. Which one takes precedence?
kjenks 01-19-07, 09:47 PM	The incompatibility is the bite attack. Pounce says you get it, Dive says you don't. Which one takes precedence? Ah, I see. I'd missed that part. I guess if the griffon gets double damage with its claws, it doesn't get to bite.
andrew.pierson 01-20-07, 10:50 AM	It seems that the precedence should be with the dive. You get all attacks, but not the bite. But what about the rake attacks that are made with the rear claws? The SRD says about Rake: ...a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. And the griffon gets rake attacks as part of its pounce. So, the diving attacks should be: 2 claws +10 melee (2d4+4) and 2 claws +10 melee (2d6+4) All the while getting a -2 on its AC.
Samwise 01-20-07, 10:54 AM	Just to be clear, I don't know for sure. I would think, from the text and as others have suggested, that they do just get the claws and rake and no bite. That is still quite nasty with the double damage. Then again, getting obsessive, which the rules constantly do, a "rake" is not listed as a "claw" or "talon," merely described as one. Silly, but then we've got square horses. (Which griffons eat. Hence the origin of the "square meal.") :D
Samwise 01-22-07, 01:39 PM	According to CustServ: Q: How does a griffon, or any other creature, Pounce and Dive at the same time? Pounce allows a creature to use all of its attacks, including its rake, on a charge. Dive (under Movement Modes on pages 311 and 312 of the DMG) works "like a charge" but only attack with claws/talons, and do double damage. Do griffons have an exemption from the normal rules for Dive that allow them to bite and rake when they Dive? If a creature has two claw attacks, like a hippogriff, do they get both attacks when they Dive? A: If the pouncing and diving creature has multiple claw attacks, then it gets them all during the pounce/dive. Likewise, because they depend upon claws/talons, the creature would be allowed to rake. However they would not be able to bite, regardless of the pounce ability. The hippogriff doesn't have pounce, and so would only be allowed a single claw attack in a dive. This time the answer is a lot simpler than the question. :P So: Hippogriff - 1 claw, double damage. Griffon - 2 claws and 2 rakes, double damage, no bite. That is still gonna leave one heck of a mark.
Britt 01-22-07, 01:44 PM	From what rule did they derive "no bite"?
Samwise 01-22-07, 01:48 PM	From what rule did they derive "no bite"? From the text for Dive. It says you can only make claw/talon attacks. That was the main question, which takes precedence, Dive or Pounce in regards to whether you get a bite attack. The answer is Dive.
Britt 01-22-07, 01:52 PM	Ahh, I don't have my books with me. That makes sense and would probably be how I would rule.
clannagh 01-22-07, 05:39 PM	From the text for Dive. It says you can only make claw/talon attacks. That was the main question, which takes precedence, Dive or Pounce in regards to whether you get a bite attack. The answer is Dive. though there is still the issue of critters with multiple claw/talon attacks
Samwise 01-22-07, 11:53 PM	though there is still the issue of critters with multiple claw/talon attacks That was answered. If it has Pounce it gets all of them. If it doesn't, it makes only one attack.
pimeister 01-31-07, 12:52 AM	I previously had a discussion with some LG friends about this, and I would rule that something flying with pounce and claws/talons could use pounce to get in the extra claw attacks it had. So it is whether or not you want to hit a whole lot of times, or fewer times with double damage. Up to the controller of the monster, or in our case, character.
CdrcJsn 01-31-07, 06:22 PM	I sincerely hope nobody is thinking of making one of those halfling rider uber griffon mounts...