Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 09-10-07, 10:32 PM	POWER ATTACK [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Str 13. Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.) A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats. COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Int 13. Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action. Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class. Special: A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats. I think it's quite clear, especially in comparison to Combat Expertise, that Power Attack merely requires that you set it at any point on your turn some point before you make any attacks if any. Whereas Combat Expertise explicitly can only be set when you use an attack or full attack action. So for instance if a character had power attack, combat expertise, and quickened scorching ray as well as a longsword in one hand, he could either declare his power attack, use the quickened scorching ray and make the attack rolls, then attack with the longsword modified by power attack, or he could use the quickened scorching ray, then use an attack action to attack with the longsword and set your combat expertise. But after you use the quickened scorching ray, you can't set power attack because you've already made attack rolls this round. You can use quickened scorching ray before using an attack or full attack action to use combat expertise. Make sense?
_metz_ 09-11-07, 12:36 AM	I'd agree with that. EDIT: Yes you can set your attack even if you don't make any that round (e.g: for AoOs)
Jay_Ibero_911 09-11-07, 12:38 AM	Restating my position: You can declare power attack on your turn without actually having to make an attack. So you could double move, but declare you power attack for the purpose of AOO's and such till your next turn. Correct?
TetsujinOni 09-11-07, 09:09 AM	Restating my position: You can declare power attack on your turn without actually having to make an attack. So you could double move, but declare you power attack for the purpose of AOO's and such till your next turn. Correct? Correct; and on my tables, I allow people to set a default power attack for the adventure which comes into effect on their first initiative.
solbergb 09-11-07, 12:44 PM	Whether or not you can set a default is unclear, but it is clear that power attack is set at the beginning of your turn and doesn't require an attack. What you can't do is charge through an AOO, wait and see if they're going to try and disarm you and then declare power attack based on whether or not they try..... (yes a contrived example, but showing why it is important to set your power attack at beginning of the turn) At some tables, including mine, power attack, fighting defensive and combat expertise are visible to enemies as a "different kind of maneuver", although the exact amount of PA or Expertise is not.
Jay_Ibero_911 09-11-07, 01:45 PM	What you can't do is charge through an AOO, wait and see if they're going to try and disarm you and then declare power attack based on whether or not they try..... That is an interesting corner case. While power attack does not need to be set at a specific point during your turn, it does need to be set before making any attack roles. By making a disarm attempt on an AOO against the charging character, he is forcing the charger to make an attack roll (Disarm uses opposed attack rolls). Now technically, as long as he does it before any dice are rolled, the charger can still set his power attack at this point. Though in this case it would make sense for him to have to set it before the enemy makes his disarm roll as well, so he can't metagame how much he can power attack for and still have a reasonable chance of winning the disarm.
solbergb 09-11-07, 02:04 PM	Right. I wouldn't call anyone on it if they metagamed a high die roll, since it means if I fail the disarm, I get hit less hard. But the intent is to declare at beginning of the turn (and if you don't declare, and take an AOO later, you should have a "power attack for none" result) (I have a couple low AC characters with ranseurs that often try to disarm on the approach AOO. This comes up more often than you'd think in the lower level game.)
Jay_Ibero_911 09-11-07, 02:13 PM	Right. I wouldn't call anyone on it if they metagamed a high die roll, since it means if I fail the disarm, I get hit less hard. But the intent is to declare at beginning of the turn (and if you don't declare, and take an AOO later, you should have a "power attack for none" result) (I have a couple low AC characters with ranseurs that often try to disarm on the approach AOO. This comes up more often than you'd think in the lower level game.) Ah, here is where we disagree then. You are going on the assumption that the intent was that power attack must be declared at a specific point, when there is no RAW support for such a ruling. You can do anything and as much as you want to on your turn before declaring power attack so long as power attack is declared at some point before any attack rolls are made.
Timlagor 09-11-07, 02:30 PM	It may come up but I very much doubt that the writers thought of it. I'd allow someone to declare PA in response to being told they were going to be disarmed. They can certainly declare PA after the AoO if disarming was not attempted but I'd have to agree that PA is set when the disarm attempt is made. If someone sets a default PA at my table, that's their PA unless they have had a turn and changed it -if they have Combat Reflexes and take an AoO before their turn then that is their PA for that AoO. It's also worth noting that PA does not affect ranged attack rolls.
Jay_Ibero_911 09-11-07, 03:01 PM	It may come up but I very much doubt that the writers thought of it. I'd allow someone to declare PA in response to being told they were going to be disarmed. They can certainly declare PA after the AoO if disarming was not attempted but I'd have to agree that PA is set when the disarm attempt is made. If someone sets a default PA at my table, that's their PA unless they have had a turn and changed it -if they have Combat Reflexes and take an AoO before their turn then that is their PA for that AoO. It's also worth noting that PA does not affect ranged attack rolls. Yes, power attack does not affect ranged attack rolls, but as written if you want to set power attack, you must do it before making any attack rolls, ranged or otherwise.
jhorred 09-13-07, 02:07 AM	I have a character with power attack and power throw and I've had a GM rule that I had to declare what level both of them were set at before making any attacks, in case I swapped weapons in my full attack. (i.e. Greatsword target goes down, quickdraw and throw javelins.)
Jay_Ibero_911 09-13-07, 09:50 AM	I have a character with power attack and power throw and I've had a GM rule that I had to declare what level both of them were set at before making any attacks, in case I swapped weapons in my full attack. (i.e. Greatsword target goes down, quickdraw and throw javelins.) Well that's exactly as it should be, as both power attack and power throw specify that they must be set before making ANY attack rolls.