Power Attack and AoO's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Power Attack and AoO's [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
clannagh
07-18-07, 07:29 PM Normally when you get an AoO opportunity in combat you automatically apply the amount of Power Attack you used earlier in the round to the AoO.

What if you didnt attack in the previous round but moved instead? Can you nominate to power attack with your AoO or is it automatically zero ?

What if you have not acted and are flat footed but have combat reflexes. Can you nominate to power attack with your AoO ?

On a related question if you choose to trip as a normal (non AoO) attack is it valid to nominate a power attack with the trip touch attack (so as to get power attack later in the round)?
Some_call_me_Tim
07-18-07, 07:50 PM On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Normally when you get an AoO opportunity in combat you automatically apply the amount of Power Attack you used earlier in the round to the AoO.

What if you didnt attack in the previous round but moved instead? Can you nominate to power attack with your AoO or is it automatically zero ?Nothing says you have actually have to attack to select only that you do it on your turn before making attack rolls. You could tell the judge, "I will power attack for full," even though all you do is move. But if you didn't say that when you moved, you can't choose it when you do get an AoO.

What if you have not acted and are flat footed but have combat reflexes. Can you nominate to power attack with your AoO ?By the same token you could say "I always attack for full power attack unless I say otherwise," when you sit down at the table. But you can't change it now because it is not your action.

On a related question if you choose to trip as a normal (non AoO) attack is it valid to nominate a power attack with the trip touch attack (so as to get power attack later in the round)?Sure, as long as you do so before your first attack roll (and accept the penalty to the touch attack to trip).

As always there may be table variation, so you should discuss it with the judge; however, you should be able to make a case for the above.
gomeztoo
07-22-07, 03:50 PM As long as you announce it during your turn, you can, imo, apply it, ven if you didn't actually attacked during the turn (which for any fighter type is a wasted turn anyway).
I would not let you apply it when you are still flatfooted in the first round, as your turn hasn't been yet.

And you need to announce it every turn. No 'I always PA for 5' at the beginning of a mod - I am not going to keep your books. You have to keep track of your own actions imo.
Some_call_me_Tim
07-22-07, 05:50 PM And you need to announce it every turn. No 'I always PA for 5' at the beginning of a mod - I am not going to keep your books. You have to keep track of your own actions imo.I'm curious, do you make players specify a weapon too? "I'm attacking with my sword" every round. It certainly saves time for a player to state his default actions once at the beginning of a module rather than repeating them everytime the need arises.

It sure doesn't sound like he wants you to keep track of it rather he wants you to aware of why he starts with a different value than most do.

I look at it as time-saver. No different than a mage saying they cast mage armor every morning when they get up or the fighter who carries his bow while walking instead of his sword. I don't want to bothered listening to everyone's laundry list of chores they routinely perform.
MatteBlack
07-23-07, 01:18 PM On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

By the same token you could say "I always attack for full power attack unless I say otherwise," when you sit down at the table. But you can't change it now because it is not your action.

The critical question is does the an AoO an action or just an attack. If it is an action then you could choose your power attack on a flat-footed combat reflex AoO before initiative and your turn. My interpretation was that the AoO is just an attack and you must wait for your initiative to come around to set your power attack at your first action.

Lee
Some_call_me_Tim
07-23-07, 04:12 PM The critical question is does the an AoO an action or just an attack. If it is an action then you could choose your power attack on a flat-footed combat reflex AoO before initiative and your turn. My interpretation was that the AoO is just an attack and you must wait for your initiative to come around to set your power attack at your first action.I have no doubt that you can only set your power attack on your action; the question is can you set your power attack on your action ten minutes or even a day before the encounter starts.

I have no problem with a player stating his default power attack before the encounter or even the module.
TetsujinOni
07-23-07, 04:44 PM I have no doubt that you can only set your power attack on your action; the question is can you set your power attack on your action ten minutes or even a day before the encounter starts.

I have no problem with a player stating his default power attack before the encounter or even the module.

I would tend to hold the position that you can't set your power attack while you're flat footed; seems like this is really only an issue for a character with combat reflexes. You can have a default power attack mode you use, but can't set it until you're aware of the fight.
MatteBlack
07-23-07, 05:31 PM I guess it depends how you interpret this:

The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

I tend to think they meant if combat ends, you drop out of turns and the effect ends but, that is not what the line reads. If you are going to read the rules this tight, a DM would be well within his right to require you to make your declaration during your last action of combat in order to maintain it.
JamesMaissen
07-23-07, 06:21 PM I would tend to hold the position that you can't set your power attack while you're flat footed.

I wouldn't allow someone to set power attack when they don't have a turn, but I don't see a problem with having a default one. In essence they are making this decision continually and I don't have a problem with it holding over from the prior six seconds.

Trying to limit it otherwise would have fun cases as not allowing a fighter to power attack his way through a door unless there was an orc hitting him with a club during that time.

The main thing is that you not allow the power attack value to be changed reactively until the character can indeed react.

-James
TetsujinOni
07-24-07, 10:56 AM Trying to limit it otherwise would have fun cases as not allowing a fighter to power attack his way through a door unless there was an orc hitting him with a club during that time.

Out of combat, I would rule that you get 'your initiative turn', and have an opportunity before you swing at the door to set your Power Attack... or your Combat Expertise for that matter, since you're clearly attacking the door.

"I swing at the door, fighting defensively, and power attacking for full."
Timlagor
07-29-07, 04:09 PM And you need to announce it every turn. No 'I always PA for 5' at the beginning of a mod - I am not going to keep your books. You have to keep track of your own actions imo.

I wonder if I could say "I power attack for 2" every 6 seconds for longer than you could bear to hear it...*

I think you're silly to set such a requirement. It's not asking you to keep track of anything: just to be able to remember it when he later applies that figure to his attacks without wasting time telling you again and again.

How does such a limitation on your part increase the fun of the players?

* No I wouldn't really do that though I would be (slightly) tempted ..then we could have the whole discussion about whether you can power attack when you're not in initiative and whether you can attack a square that you believe to be empty just in case it contains an invisible enemy and... oh what fun we could have!
Samwise
07-29-07, 04:51 PM It is necessary because of players who will wait for the DM to say an attack missed because of using power attack, then claim they weren't because they didn't say it that time.
This is the same kind of player who will also move his figure, declare an attack with flanking, and roll to hit before the DM has a chance to note that the line of movement provokes and AoO. He will then delay the game trying to trace a route that avoids the AoO. When he can't, he will wait for the DM to roll the attack, decide if it will hit, then remember that he can use tumble, roll the check, and insist the AoO doesn't count.

It is much easier to just declare all such things at the proper part of the turn.
JamesMaissen
07-30-07, 01:25 AM It is much easier to just declare all such things at the proper part of the turn.

Actually it's easier to laugh at those players and move along ignoring their protestations...

For the 99.X% of the gamers out there I think 'I always power attack for X unless I state otherwise' should work just fine. The problems you describe are with players. And if you have that level of problem with them then holding hands and even double checking their math and the like might be in order. But it needn't be the case universally.

-James
Samwise
07-30-07, 11:32 AM Actually it's easier to laugh at those players and move along ignoring their protestations...

For the 99.X% of the gamers out there I think 'I always power attack for X unless I state otherwise' should work just fine. The problems you describe are with players. And if you have that level of problem with them then holding hands and even double checking their math and the like might be in order. But it needn't be the case universally.

-James

Actually its not, as their complaints will drown out any other discussion, and you will have to start tracking their damage since you can not trust them to do so.

And for the rest of the gamers out there, I think stating their power attack at the right time is nothing onerous and they have no issues with doing so.
JamesMaissen
07-30-07, 03:16 PM Actually its not, as their complaints will drown out any other discussion, and you will have to start tracking their damage since you can not trust them to do so.

I'll say again, if you have players like this then power attack is not your problem.

-James
Samwise
07-30-07, 03:37 PM I'll say again, if you have players like this then power attack is not your problem.

-James

Since you seem to have missed the point:

Whether you can power attack on an AoO, especially if you haven't attacked during your turn may be a problem with power attack. (I agree with what gomeztoo said about declaring it even if you don't make an attack.)
I have no problem with power attack.

Whether you can declare your power attack permanently at the start of a game session is always a problem with players.
It is in the same category as players who believe they can order the DM to roll separate initiatives for every monster in a group.
Players do not get to make house rules for the game, and they definitely do not get to order DMs to use them, argue with the DM about using them, or even criticize the DM for not using them.
I do have a problem with players trying to impose their house rules off on me, no matter what the circumstances.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clannagh 07-18-07, 07:29 PM	Normally when you get an AoO opportunity in combat you automatically apply the amount of Power Attack you used earlier in the round to the AoO. What if you didnt attack in the previous round but moved instead? Can you nominate to power attack with your AoO or is it automatically zero ? What if you have not acted and are flat footed but have combat reflexes. Can you nominate to power attack with your AoO ? On a related question if you choose to trip as a normal (non AoO) attack is it valid to nominate a power attack with the trip touch attack (so as to get power attack later in the round)?
Some_call_me_Tim 07-18-07, 07:50 PM	On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. Normally when you get an AoO opportunity in combat you automatically apply the amount of Power Attack you used earlier in the round to the AoO. What if you didnt attack in the previous round but moved instead? Can you nominate to power attack with your AoO or is it automatically zero ?Nothing says you have actually have to attack to select only that you do it on your turn before making attack rolls. You could tell the judge, "I will power attack for full," even though all you do is move. But if you didn't say that when you moved, you can't choose it when you do get an AoO. What if you have not acted and are flat footed but have combat reflexes. Can you nominate to power attack with your AoO ?By the same token you could say "I always attack for full power attack unless I say otherwise," when you sit down at the table. But you can't change it now because it is not your action. On a related question if you choose to trip as a normal (non AoO) attack is it valid to nominate a power attack with the trip touch attack (so as to get power attack later in the round)?Sure, as long as you do so before your first attack roll (and accept the penalty to the touch attack to trip). As always there may be table variation, so you should discuss it with the judge; however, you should be able to make a case for the above.
gomeztoo 07-22-07, 03:50 PM	As long as you announce it during your turn, you can, imo, apply it, ven if you didn't actually attacked during the turn (which for any fighter type is a wasted turn anyway). I would not let you apply it when you are still flatfooted in the first round, as your turn hasn't been yet. And you need to announce it every turn. No 'I always PA for 5' at the beginning of a mod - I am not going to keep your books. You have to keep track of your own actions imo.
Some_call_me_Tim 07-22-07, 05:50 PM	And you need to announce it every turn. No 'I always PA for 5' at the beginning of a mod - I am not going to keep your books. You have to keep track of your own actions imo.I'm curious, do you make players specify a weapon too? "I'm attacking with my sword" every round. It certainly saves time for a player to state his default actions once at the beginning of a module rather than repeating them everytime the need arises. It sure doesn't sound like he wants you to keep track of it rather he wants you to aware of why he starts with a different value than most do. I look at it as time-saver. No different than a mage saying they cast mage armor every morning when they get up or the fighter who carries his bow while walking instead of his sword. I don't want to bothered listening to everyone's laundry list of chores they routinely perform.
MatteBlack 07-23-07, 01:18 PM	On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. By the same token you could say "I always attack for full power attack unless I say otherwise," when you sit down at the table. But you can't change it now because it is not your action. The critical question is does the an AoO an action or just an attack. If it is an action then you could choose your power attack on a flat-footed combat reflex AoO before initiative and your turn. My interpretation was that the AoO is just an attack and you must wait for your initiative to come around to set your power attack at your first action. Lee
Some_call_me_Tim 07-23-07, 04:12 PM	The critical question is does the an AoO an action or just an attack. If it is an action then you could choose your power attack on a flat-footed combat reflex AoO before initiative and your turn. My interpretation was that the AoO is just an attack and you must wait for your initiative to come around to set your power attack at your first action.I have no doubt that you can only set your power attack on your action; the question is can you set your power attack on your action ten minutes or even a day before the encounter starts. I have no problem with a player stating his default power attack before the encounter or even the module.
TetsujinOni 07-23-07, 04:44 PM	I have no doubt that you can only set your power attack on your action; the question is can you set your power attack on your action ten minutes or even a day before the encounter starts. I have no problem with a player stating his default power attack before the encounter or even the module. I would tend to hold the position that you can't set your power attack while you're flat footed; seems like this is really only an issue for a character with combat reflexes. You can have a default power attack mode you use, but can't set it until you're aware of the fight.
MatteBlack 07-23-07, 05:31 PM	I guess it depends how you interpret this: The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn. I tend to think they meant if combat ends, you drop out of turns and the effect ends but, that is not what the line reads. If you are going to read the rules this tight, a DM would be well within his right to require you to make your declaration during your last action of combat in order to maintain it.
JamesMaissen 07-23-07, 06:21 PM	I would tend to hold the position that you can't set your power attack while you're flat footed. I wouldn't allow someone to set power attack when they don't have a turn, but I don't see a problem with having a default one. In essence they are making this decision continually and I don't have a problem with it holding over from the prior six seconds. Trying to limit it otherwise would have fun cases as not allowing a fighter to power attack his way through a door unless there was an orc hitting him with a club during that time. The main thing is that you not allow the power attack value to be changed reactively until the character can indeed react. -James
TetsujinOni 07-24-07, 10:56 AM	Trying to limit it otherwise would have fun cases as not allowing a fighter to power attack his way through a door unless there was an orc hitting him with a club during that time. Out of combat, I would rule that you get 'your initiative turn', and have an opportunity before you swing at the door to set your Power Attack... or your Combat Expertise for that matter, since you're clearly attacking the door. "I swing at the door, fighting defensively, and power attacking for full."
Timlagor 07-29-07, 04:09 PM	And you need to announce it every turn. No 'I always PA for 5' at the beginning of a mod - I am not going to keep your books. You have to keep track of your own actions imo. I wonder if I could say "I power attack for 2" every 6 seconds for longer than you could bear to hear it...* I think you're silly to set such a requirement. It's not asking you to keep track of anything: just to be able to remember it when he later applies that figure to his attacks without wasting time telling you again and again. How does such a limitation on your part increase the fun of the players? * No I wouldn't really do that though I would be (slightly) tempted ..then we could have the whole discussion about whether you can power attack when you're not in initiative and whether you can attack a square that you believe to be empty just in case it contains an invisible enemy and... oh what fun we could have!
Samwise 07-29-07, 04:51 PM	It is necessary because of players who will wait for the DM to say an attack missed because of using power attack, then claim they weren't because they didn't say it that time. This is the same kind of player who will also move his figure, declare an attack with flanking, and roll to hit before the DM has a chance to note that the line of movement provokes and AoO. He will then delay the game trying to trace a route that avoids the AoO. When he can't, he will wait for the DM to roll the attack, decide if it will hit, then remember that he can use tumble, roll the check, and insist the AoO doesn't count. It is much easier to just declare all such things at the proper part of the turn.
JamesMaissen 07-30-07, 01:25 AM	It is much easier to just declare all such things at the proper part of the turn. Actually it's easier to laugh at those players and move along ignoring their protestations... For the 99.X% of the gamers out there I think 'I always power attack for X unless I state otherwise' should work just fine. The problems you describe are with players. And if you have that level of problem with them then holding hands and even double checking their math and the like might be in order. But it needn't be the case universally. -James
Samwise 07-30-07, 11:32 AM	Actually it's easier to laugh at those players and move along ignoring their protestations... For the 99.X% of the gamers out there I think 'I always power attack for X unless I state otherwise' should work just fine. The problems you describe are with players. And if you have that level of problem with them then holding hands and even double checking their math and the like might be in order. But it needn't be the case universally. -James Actually its not, as their complaints will drown out any other discussion, and you will have to start tracking their damage since you can not trust them to do so. And for the rest of the gamers out there, I think stating their power attack at the right time is nothing onerous and they have no issues with doing so.
JamesMaissen 07-30-07, 03:16 PM	Actually its not, as their complaints will drown out any other discussion, and you will have to start tracking their damage since you can not trust them to do so. I'll say again, if you have players like this then power attack is not your problem. -James
Samwise 07-30-07, 03:37 PM	I'll say again, if you have players like this then power attack is not your problem. -James Since you seem to have missed the point: Whether you can power attack on an AoO, especially if you haven't attacked during your turn may be a problem with power attack. (I agree with what gomeztoo said about declaring it even if you don't make an attack.) I have no problem with power attack. Whether you can declare your power attack permanently at the start of a game session is always a problem with players. It is in the same category as players who believe they can order the DM to roll separate initiatives for every monster in a group. Players do not get to make house rules for the game, and they definitely do not get to order DMs to use them, argue with the DM about using them, or even criticize the DM for not using them. I do have a problem with players trying to impose their house rules off on me, no matter what the circumstances.