Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 06-06-07, 11:45 AM	Say an evil summoned creature has swallowed, grappled, pinned or is otherwise engaged in direct contact with a target. Target gains benefit of a Protection from Evil spell. What happens? If grappled or pinned is the summoned critter what does repelled away mean in this instance? Treat as free action/automatic success on an escape grapple check? If the target is swallowed/engulfed by a summoned critter what happens? Is he 'spat out?' In the FAQ somewhere? If there has been an official ruling please cite source. Thanks.
Reska 06-06-07, 09:05 PM	Say an evil summoned creature has swallowed, grappled, pinned or is otherwise engaged in direct contact with a target. Target gains benefit of a Protection from Evil spell. What happens? If grappled or pinned is the summoned critter what does repelled away mean in this instance? Treat as free action/automatic success on an escape grapple check? If the target is swallowed/engulfed by a summoned critter what happens? Is he 'spat out?' In the FAQ somewhere? If there has been an official ruling please cite source. Thanks. Somehow, I see this image in my head of a summoned creature swallowing a halfling that gets "protection from (appropriate prot)" And then the creature being yanked all over the place by his stomach, in a Benny Hill/Cartoon sort of way.
GorTeX 06-06-07, 09:27 PM	I would think that the spell covers this... Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good summoned creatures are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature. since the protection extends 1' from the protected creature, you probalby can't avoid forcing it on the Summoned creature if you are in its' stomach..
King Kashue 06-07-07, 02:46 AM	I would think that the spell covers this... since the protection extends 1' from the protected creature, you probalby can't avoid forcing it on the Summoned creature if you are in its' stomach.. That's not what the passage means. It means you can't take an action to force yourself on it. Standing there while it grapples you is not "you taking an action" any more than it taking a swing at you and you not moving is. That's the whole problem, the rules don't model this. By the rules of what is and is not an action, just standing there is not an action. However, we've got an obvious conflict since they're already touching when the spell is cast... Honestly, I'm not sure how I'd rule this, since I can see arguments both for and against.
Madfox11 06-07-07, 04:10 AM	Since it takes an action from at least one of the grapplers to get out of a grapple, I would rule that the barrier is broken if the spell is used in such a fashion. Otherwise you are getting some weird things, especially when dealing stuff that involves swallowing whole or being stuck on spikes. Mind you, I have never ever had to deal with this problem. Summoned monsters are relatively rare, and even more so with improved grapple and similar abilities, and more often than not I see the freedom of movement being cast or the players concluding that the beast in grapple is less dangerous than without ;)
Zanzibax 06-07-07, 11:38 AM	Since it takes an action from at least one of the grapplers to get out of a grapple, I would rule that the barrier is broken if the spell is used in such a fashion. Otherwise you are getting some weird things, especially when dealing stuff that involves swallowing whole or being stuck on spikes. Mind you, I have never ever had to deal with this problem. Summoned monsters are relatively rare, and even more so with improved grapple and similar abilities, and more often than not I see the freedom of movement being cast or the players concluding that the beast in grapple is less dangerous than without ;) I believe it's a relevant question. If the one gaining the abjuration takes no action in a grapple, then they cannot be said to be forcing the spell against a creature. There are some weird things that should be addressed in my opinion. No hand-waving or general assumptions address the issue.
Sieylianna 06-07-07, 12:07 PM	At my table, if you cast the spell and the target is within 1 foot of an affected creature, the spell will fail. Ed
King Kashue 06-07-07, 02:33 PM	At my table, if you cast the spell and the target is within 1 foot of an affected creature, the spell will fail. Ed And you support that with what rule? Just out of curiosity...
LeeShort 06-07-07, 03:51 PM	My ruling would be that the phrase "the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures" is interpreted as "the spell prevents INITIATION OF bodily contact by summoned creatures." Thus, creatures already in bodily contact do not have said bodily contact forcibly removed, but once the subject escapes, it is immune to further natural weapon attacks or grapple attempts. It's far from clear that the rules are meant this way, but IMO it's the best solution to a sticky situation.
ShinAkuma2 06-07-07, 04:05 PM	My ruling would be that the phrase "the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures" is interpreted as "the spell prevents INITIATION OF bodily contact by summoned creatures." I agree...You can't "prevent" something that's already happened.
katrick 06-07-07, 04:06 PM	pg 156 PHB under grapple; Cast a Spell: blah,blah,blah. Any spell that requires precise and careful action, such as drawing a circle with powdered silver for Protection from Evil, is impossible to cast while grappling or pinned. So same follows for swallow etc... I generally, rule Pro oddities the way it says under the possesion bit which says: "Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast." ie if you have it up then the Evil critter cant attempt the grapple, but if your grappled, unlucky. katrick
Sieylianna 06-07-07, 05:12 PM	And you support that with what rule? Just out of curiosity... You are already in contact with the individual. Therefore you can not establish a a clear space around your body, the opponent is already inside it. Ed
katrick 06-07-07, 05:24 PM	You are already in contact with the individual. Therefore you can not establish a a clear space around your body, the opponent is already inside it. Ed ala Wall of Force
King Kashue 06-07-07, 05:37 PM	You are already in contact with the individual. Therefore you can not establish a a clear space around your body, the opponent is already inside it. Ed Why would that make the spell fail though? It meets none of the criteria for making the spell fail.
Zanzibax 06-07-07, 05:56 PM	You are already in contact with the individual. Therefore you can not establish a a clear space around your body, the opponent is already inside it. Ed I can see how it is supported using the mind-affecting properties interpretation. Which means...if cast *after* begun...*if* you can get away...the protection will work unless and until you, newly protected, forces yourself against a summoned creature.
Zanzibax 06-07-07, 05:58 PM	pg 156 PHB under grapple; Cast a Spell: blah,blah,blah. Any spell that requires precise and careful action, such as drawing a circle with powdered silver for Protection from Evil, is impossible to cast while grappling or pinned. So same follows for swallow etc... I generally, rule Pro oddities the way it says under the possesion bit which says: "Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast." ie if you have it up then the Evil critter cant attempt the grapple, but if your grappled, unlucky. katrick Assume someone else is casting it on the grappled, or it is activated by an item.
lseelba 06-07-07, 07:51 PM	I don't think you are going to find a clear answer in any of the rules, so if you are asking for DM interpretations, here's mine: If it was cast on the halfling grappilng the summoned Dire Bear (halfling couldn't cast it himself as pointed out above), I'd rule as below. I based this on Skip Williams Grappling article (HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a)). Note that this is based on optional rules and a much stricter interpretation would just have the spell fail. However I like innovative thinking by the PC's so here's what I would do: The bear takes an immediate action to release its hold. The halfling may make an immediate action to release its hold in response. If the halfing does not take this action, then the protection against contact by summoned creatures ends, since the warded creature has forced the barrier against the blocked creature.
JJeff 06-07-07, 09:47 PM	The bear takes an immediate action to release its hold. The halfling may make an immediate action to release its hold in response. If the halfing does not take this action, then the protection against contact by summoned creatures ends, since the warded creature has forced the barrier against the blocked creature. There's no option in the rules so far to release as an immediate action, so that'll be hard to introduce. My opinion is that in a grapple, both grapplers are considered to be grappling each other, thus as long as you are being grappled, you are both taking offensive actions against each other, so the prot vs Alignment will not prevent any contact since the clause is broken already
lseelba 06-08-07, 03:08 AM	There's no option in the rules so far to release as an immediate action, so that'll be hard to introduce. My opinion is that in a grapple, both grapplers are considered to be grappling each other, thus as long as you are being grappled, you are both taking offensive actions against each other, so the prot vs Alignment will not prevent any contact since the clause is broken already Well, there are no options for releasing a hold in the rules period. Like I said its an optional rule that I picked up from that article. Its just how I would probably handle the spell instead of saying it automatically fails.
katrick 06-08-07, 09:23 AM	I wouldn't say the spell fails, just the recoil bit, you'd still get the mind affect and saves. katrick
GorTeX 06-08-07, 02:33 PM	remember, in the OP, the PC wasn't just grappled..he was swallowed whole... The spell wouldn't 'fail'..you'd still get the bonuses to AC and such, it's just that the 'summoned and evil creatures can't touch you' part of Prot Evil would fail to activate, IMO. By casting the spell (via item or whatever), you are forceing the 'area' (1' from your body in all directions) on the creature--unless you can find a way to be at least 1' away from the creature in all directions while floating in its stomach.. Oh, and you have to make an opposed grapple check to 'release' a grapple (basically breaking the grapple)--it's not an immediate action.
lseelba 06-08-07, 11:57 PM	remember, in the OP, the PC wasn't just grappled..he was swallowed whole... The spell wouldn't 'fail'..you'd still get the bonuses to AC and such, it's just that the 'summoned and evil creatures can't touch you' part of Prot Evil would fail to activate, IMO. By casting the spell (via item or whatever), you are forceing the 'area' (1' from your body in all directions) on the creature--unless you can find a way to be at least 1' away from the creature in all directions while floating in its stomach.. Oh, and you have to make an opposed grapple check to 'release' a grapple (basically breaking the grapple)--it's not an immediate action. A) If someone tried to cast this while swallowed whole I would definitely say the spell fails. B) The third time I've said it, the 'releasing a hold' is an optional rule from that grappling article I posted that actually shows how to handle a situation where BOTH parties want to stop grappling. After all, why make a halfling wizard make an opposed grapple check to get away from a Dire Bear that wants to drop him?
Madfox11 06-11-07, 08:19 AM	B) The third time I've said it, the 'releasing a hold' is an optional rule from that grappling article I posted that actually shows how to handle a situation where BOTH parties want to stop grappling. After all, why make a halfling wizard make an opposed grapple check to get away from a Dire Bear that wants to drop him? Well, if a grapple is ended you end up standing in a square of your choice outside the area of the opponent you were grappling with. I would assume that is part of the action that takes time. I mean, how often would a real grapple look like in a grappling match with both sides pushing each others upper bodies against each other - especially when dealing with a dire bear grappling the poor halfling?