Protection from (Align) versus Symbol of Insanity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Protection from (Align) versus Symbol of Insanity [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Rerednaw
05-07-07, 01:16 PM Would a Protection from Evil spell stop a Symbol of Insanity? Or for that matter, Confusion or Insanity?

Just curious.
solbergb
05-07-07, 02:27 PM Probably not. Firstly, it doesn't actually stop you from acquiring an effect such as dominate, it just suppresses the effect.

Second, it only suppresses possession and attempts to "exercise mental control", which means most enchantment(charm) and some (compulsion) effects but not ALL effects of that sort.

Confusion effects are (complusion) but are random - nobody is exerting control over you. It is likely that hold person is in the same category
(nobody is giving you orders, the spell just makes you hold still). The
intent seems to be things like suggestion, charm person, dominate person,
where in addition to landing the spell, the caster has to give specific
orders and there are mechanisms for others to contest control. These
are in some ways "possession remotely" kinds of spells.

There is however some table variation because an individual judge can rule that, say, hold person is "exercising metal control to make you hold still". I think it is the wrong call, but you can't absolutely disprove it from the text:

"Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. "
KarmaInferno
05-07-07, 06:30 PM Eh, I could see it ruled either way, as the ongoing confusion could be seen as a form of mental control.

On a related note:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html

Yes, this probably violates the "no offensive use" clause, but damn if it isn't a funny concept.

-karma
Rerednaw
05-09-07, 05:52 PM Eh, I could see it ruled either way, as the ongoing confusion could be seen as a form of mental control.

On a related note:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html

Yes, this probably violates the "no offensive use" clause, but damn if it isn't a funny concept.

-karma

Here we go again.

Variant on an old idea...I'll put a Symbol of X on my shield, Spell Immunity (Symbol of X) on myself, and cover the shield with a post-it. In combat he'll reach over and rip the cover off, sit back, and enjoy.

Still pretty wicked though. Wonder if we could do the same in an special mod?
bitznarf
05-09-07, 06:05 PM As the caster of the spell, you are automatically attuned to the symbol, no need for the spell immunity. How exactly are you ensuring that your opponent will uncover the symbol himself?
ShinAkuma2
05-09-07, 09:30 PM As the caster of the spell, you are automatically attuned to the symbol, no need for the spell immunity. How exactly are you ensuring that your opponent will uncover the symbol himself?

Though he switched from 1st to 3rd person mid thought, I believe he intends to have his character remove the post-it from his own shield.
bitznarf
05-09-07, 11:38 PM Thats just it. If he pulls the post it note off himself, wouldn't he trigger this clause: "You can’t use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe." Thus, how does he ensure the enemy uncovers the symbol?
_metz_
05-10-07, 09:18 AM Have "don't touch" written on the post-it...
ShinAkuma2
05-10-07, 01:58 PM Thats just it. If he pulls the post it note off himself, wouldn't he trigger this clause: "You can’t use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe." Thus, how does he ensure the enemy uncovers the symbol?

If this wasn't LG, and he had a DM who he could persuade, he could probably get away with blocking an enemy's attack with the shield, causing him to touch the symbol.
CdrcJsn
05-10-07, 03:22 PM Thats just it. If he pulls the post it note off himself, wouldn't he trigger this clause: "You can’t use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe." Thus, how does he ensure the enemy uncovers the symbol?

You can set the trigger to be almost anything, like a contingency.

A trigger to go off when the person carrying a shield takes damage should be sufficient.

Of course, once activated, it affects everything around the shield (unless attuned) and isn't selective. Great for fighting hordes of bad guys...not so good when hit by a bottle in a barfight.

DM "your symbol of death activates and kills everyone in the common room."
Player "Um...check please."
CdrcJsn
05-10-07, 03:26 PM Just noticed something funny...

The picture in the PHB near the Symbol description has Jozan casting a Symbol of Pain.

Symbol of Pain
Necromancy[Evil]

So who does Jozan really worship?
chesspiece
05-11-07, 09:40 AM So who does Jozan really worship?

Oh, that’s just his Evil twin Nozaj. If you want to hear some really good stories, there’s the one where Regdar got hit with a certain girdle and almost got married (under the name Regda). The wedding was called off immediately after the curse was lifted. There was some… drama in the confrontations later on. :D

You know, these characters really need their own soap opera.
:P
celexter
05-15-07, 12:41 AM Just noticed something funny...

The picture in the PHB near the Symbol description has Jozan casting a Symbol of Pain.

Symbol of Pain
Necromancy[Evil]

So who does Jozan really worship?

Same. I noted that a long time ago. Wonder if it was a typo for other symbols.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 05-07-07, 01:16 PM	Would a Protection from Evil spell stop a Symbol of Insanity? Or for that matter, Confusion or Insanity? Just curious.
solbergb 05-07-07, 02:27 PM	Probably not. Firstly, it doesn't actually stop you from acquiring an effect such as dominate, it just suppresses the effect. Second, it only suppresses possession and attempts to "exercise mental control", which means most enchantment(charm) and some (compulsion) effects but not ALL effects of that sort. Confusion effects are (complusion) but are random - nobody is exerting control over you. It is likely that hold person is in the same category (nobody is giving you orders, the spell just makes you hold still). The intent seems to be things like suggestion, charm person, dominate person, where in addition to landing the spell, the caster has to give specific orders and there are mechanisms for others to contest control. These are in some ways "possession remotely" kinds of spells. There is however some table variation because an individual judge can rule that, say, hold person is "exercising metal control to make you hold still". I think it is the wrong call, but you can't absolutely disprove it from the text: "Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. "
KarmaInferno 05-07-07, 06:30 PM	Eh, I could see it ruled either way, as the ongoing confusion could be seen as a form of mental control. On a related note: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html Yes, this probably violates the "no offensive use" clause, but damn if it isn't a funny concept. -karma
Rerednaw 05-09-07, 05:52 PM	Eh, I could see it ruled either way, as the ongoing confusion could be seen as a form of mental control. On a related note: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html Yes, this probably violates the "no offensive use" clause, but damn if it isn't a funny concept. -karma Here we go again. Variant on an old idea...I'll put a Symbol of X on my shield, Spell Immunity (Symbol of X) on myself, and cover the shield with a post-it. In combat he'll reach over and rip the cover off, sit back, and enjoy. Still pretty wicked though. Wonder if we could do the same in an special mod?
bitznarf 05-09-07, 06:05 PM	As the caster of the spell, you are automatically attuned to the symbol, no need for the spell immunity. How exactly are you ensuring that your opponent will uncover the symbol himself?
ShinAkuma2 05-09-07, 09:30 PM	As the caster of the spell, you are automatically attuned to the symbol, no need for the spell immunity. How exactly are you ensuring that your opponent will uncover the symbol himself? Though he switched from 1st to 3rd person mid thought, I believe he intends to have his character remove the post-it from his own shield.
bitznarf 05-09-07, 11:38 PM	Thats just it. If he pulls the post it note off himself, wouldn't he trigger this clause: "You can’t use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe." Thus, how does he ensure the enemy uncovers the symbol?
_metz_ 05-10-07, 09:18 AM	Have "don't touch" written on the post-it...
ShinAkuma2 05-10-07, 01:58 PM	Thats just it. If he pulls the post it note off himself, wouldn't he trigger this clause: "You can’t use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe." Thus, how does he ensure the enemy uncovers the symbol? If this wasn't LG, and he had a DM who he could persuade, he could probably get away with blocking an enemy's attack with the shield, causing him to touch the symbol.
CdrcJsn 05-10-07, 03:22 PM	Thats just it. If he pulls the post it note off himself, wouldn't he trigger this clause: "You can’t use a symbol of death offensively; for instance, a touch-triggered symbol of death remains untriggered if an item bearing the symbol of death is used to touch a creature. Likewise, a symbol of death cannot be placed on a weapon and set to activate when the weapon strikes a foe." Thus, how does he ensure the enemy uncovers the symbol? You can set the trigger to be almost anything, like a contingency. A trigger to go off when the person carrying a shield takes damage should be sufficient. Of course, once activated, it affects everything around the shield (unless attuned) and isn't selective. Great for fighting hordes of bad guys...not so good when hit by a bottle in a barfight. DM "your symbol of death activates and kills everyone in the common room." Player "Um...check please."
CdrcJsn 05-10-07, 03:26 PM	Just noticed something funny... The picture in the PHB near the Symbol description has Jozan casting a Symbol of Pain. Symbol of Pain Necromancy[Evil] So who does Jozan really worship?
chesspiece 05-11-07, 09:40 AM	So who does Jozan really worship? Oh, that’s just his Evil twin Nozaj. If you want to hear some really good stories, there’s the one where Regdar got hit with a certain girdle and almost got married (under the name Regda). The wedding was called off immediately after the curse was lifted. There was some… drama in the confrontations later on. :D You know, these characters really need their own soap opera. :P
celexter 05-15-07, 12:41 AM	Just noticed something funny... The picture in the PHB near the Symbol description has Jozan casting a Symbol of Pain. Symbol of Pain Necromancy[Evil] So who does Jozan really worship? Same. I noted that a long time ago. Wonder if it was a typo for other symbols.