Question about Dying Wizards [Archive] - Wizards Community

Question about Dying Wizards [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kschaecher
05-23-07, 08:05 AM I have a Living Greyhawk wizard who just gained a wizard level (4th to 5th). He chose 2 new 3rd level spells and wrote them in his spell book. He then died the next mod, but was raised half way between 4th and 5th level wizard. What happens to the 2 3rd level spells he wrote into his spell book? I would think they would still be there; he just cannot use them until he gets to 5th level wizard again. When he goes to 5th level wizard again, does he get to chose two more spells? I would think that he would since a wizard can choose two new spells whenever they gain a wizard level. Let me know your thoughts.
haferka
05-23-07, 08:59 AM You earned learned those spells.. they are in your spellbook so you know them.. you just can't cast them untill you regain your level.
and when you regain your level.. you will gain 2 more spells.
Lupo
05-23-07, 09:42 AM I have a Living Greyhawk wizard who just gained a wizard level (4th to 5th). He chose 2 new 3rd level spells and wrote them in his spell book. He then died the next mod, but was raised half way between 4th and 5th level wizard. What happens to the 2 3rd level spells he wrote into his spell book? I would think they would still be there; he just cannot use them until he gets to 5th level wizard again. When he goes to 5th level wizard again, does he get to chose two more spells? I would think that he would since a wizard can choose two new spells whenever they gain a wizard level. Let me know your thoughts.

there was a debate on this somewhere . . .

anyway, you loose the "free" spells, but may keep any spells that you copied from other wizards or from other sources and payed for (or not, in the case of a boocob's blessed book).

with loosing a level, you loose ALL benefits of the leveling, even the scribed spells and any knowledge of them.

ciao

martin m.
haferka
05-23-07, 09:50 AM there was a debate on this somewhere . . .

anyway, you loose the "free" spells, but may keep any spells that you copied from other wizards or from other sources and payed for (or not, in the case of a boocob's blessed book).

with loosing a level, you loose ALL benefits of the leveling, even the scribed spells and any knowledge of them.

ciao

martin m.

I could see how people would have a problem with this.. but.. its a core rules issue..

Even if you "loose" the bonus spells they still exist in your spellbook.
Lupo
05-23-07, 10:01 AM I could see how people would have a problem with this.. but.. its a core rules issue..

Even if you "loose" the bonus spells they still exist in your spellbook.

no, either they are vanishing from your spellbook OR you have to take the same spells again when leveling. every other way of dealing with this would create a benefit for loosing a level.

and i think this discussion has already taken place, just check the various yahoo groups, or these boards.

ciao

martin m.
haferka
05-23-07, 10:38 AM no, either they are vanishing from your spellbook OR you have to take the same spells again when leveling. every other way of dealing with this would create a benefit for loosing a level.

and i think this discussion has already taken place, just check the various yahoo groups, or these boards.

ciao

martin m.

If you loose the bonus spells known.. they are removed from your spells known list.. BUT.. they do NOT disapear from your spellbook..

Either you would need to re-scribe them.. or "master" your own spellbook to get them back onto your "spells known" list..
Dominick
05-23-07, 11:04 AM Had a Barbarian that took a Cleric level, among other things he gained literacy.

He died; he lost the Cleric level, and loses literacy. Doesn't make sense but, oh well, it doesn't make sense that a fireball comes out of a little stick and explodes exactly in a circular pattern, its so accurate you can position it near your friends.

I RPed it like he got hit so hard, he forgot how to read and lost faith in Kord. He stumbles around with a bandaged head for a while.
bitznarf
05-23-07, 11:05 AM Don't forget that if you hit a centaur hard enough, he can shrink.
JJeff
05-23-07, 12:20 PM While we are roughly on the topic of Wizards and spells, can a Wizard copy a higher level spell than he can cast into his spellbook for future use?
Howie23
05-23-07, 01:28 PM While we are roughly on the topic of Wizards and spells, can a Wizard copy a higher level spell than he can cast into his spellbook for future use?

If he can make the spellcraft, yes. There is no restriction. Level-up spells have to be castable, but copied spells don't.

David
jhorred
05-23-07, 04:26 PM When my wizard died and went from 8th to 7th, I left the spells in the spellbok but I didn't take more spells again when I releved. I figured this was the easiest and most conservative way to do it.
kschaecher
05-23-07, 09:27 PM Thanks guys for the comments. Still don't know what to do. I guess that I will write the region coordinator and get a ruling from them.
haferka
05-24-07, 07:55 AM If you don't care about adding 2 new spells.. you could just pick the same ones that you previously lost..

No arguments..
chesspiece
05-24-07, 05:53 PM IIRC, Britt once said that the Table GM can rule on issues similar to this (that may have long-term effects on equipment, etc.) when it happens. But then clarified that if a later GM finds this objectionable, they can over-rule. I'll try to find the quote / context on the weekend if this isn't confirmed / denied by then. ;)

So... you probably should have asked your GM at the table when the wizard died. Barring that, ask your next GM.

If you agree with those of us that feel this shouldn't be a benefit, you could:
- remove the 2 spells and learn 2 new ones at the next level up
- keep the 2 spells and not learn new ones at the next level up
- one of the similar options (spell is there but you no longer 'know' it)

This discussion has gone around a few times without a Circle ruling. So let your next GM have it their way (maybe adding a note to an AR) and you can't go wrong.
JJeff
05-24-07, 09:40 PM And for the record, I am a GM that wouldn't mind if you didn't remove the 2 spells learnt and learnt two more when you re-leveled.

I feel that the Class feature is the "free-ness" of the two spells, not the scribing into the spellbook, so the spells stay in the spellbook. I think dying and coming back from the dead is rather bad enough to have to have 2 spells ripped from your head.

But I'll abide by any other previous GM's ruling on any character that passes my table.
LGMoses
05-25-07, 02:32 AM If you loose the

OMG ITS LOSE LOSE!!! :BANGHEAD:
JJeff
05-25-07, 03:45 AM OMG ITS LOSE LOSE!!! :BANGHEAD:

Ok...Ok... Calm down.
*Casts Calm Emotions and begins Diplomacy check the next round*
Lupo
05-25-07, 08:21 AM And for the record, I am a GM that wouldn't mind if you didn't remove the 2 spells learnt and learnt two more when you re-leveled.

I feel that the Class feature is the "free-ness" of the two spells, not the scribing into the spellbook, so the spells stay in the spellbook. I think dying and coming back from the dead is rather bad enough to have to have 2 spells ripped from your head.

But I'll abide by any other previous GM's ruling on any character that passes my table.

:confused: arcanist ONE dies, resets spells known to last level, has lost all knowledge of the lost spells.

:confused: arcanist TWO dies, resets spells known to last level, has lost all knowledge of the lost spells.

now look at this scenario when arcanist ONE is a sorcerer and arcanist TWO is a wizard:rolleyes: .

to me, the free spells aren't a "class feature" but a "leveling" feature.

just for game balance issues the two free spells should be erased from the spellbook as well, or at least the wizard should be forced to take the same spells when leveling - and even this may cause some additional problems:

what if said passed wizard does NOT take a wizard level with next leveling, but a class that does not add to his previous spellcasting class??

what if other arcanists copy the "surplus" spells from the wizard's spell book??

what if the wizard now casts a "limited wish" to duplicate one of these spells - and the spell in question is NONC??

what if access to the source of NONC spells expire while the wizard is adventuring till his next level, can he still learn the now closed spells??

just think about these problems ;)

ciao

martin m.

ps: yes i have one and in a fourth night two wizard characters in LG, and i don't plan for "convenient" death scheduling, although dying in LG has more benefits than downsides IF most of the gp are paid with overcap or favors AND the character was less than half way on XP for the next level.
[both my top characters had terminal accidents a few XP short of leveling and even then, the negative effects were way less negative than the advantages were positive :)] .
ThaiGQ
05-26-07, 05:55 AM OMG ITS LOSE LOSE!!! :BANGHEAD:

LOL... I'm actually inclined to side with LGMoses on this one...I just wanted to see if anyone else wanted to point it out. :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kschaecher 05-23-07, 08:05 AM	I have a Living Greyhawk wizard who just gained a wizard level (4th to 5th). He chose 2 new 3rd level spells and wrote them in his spell book. He then died the next mod, but was raised half way between 4th and 5th level wizard. What happens to the 2 3rd level spells he wrote into his spell book? I would think they would still be there; he just cannot use them until he gets to 5th level wizard again. When he goes to 5th level wizard again, does he get to chose two more spells? I would think that he would since a wizard can choose two new spells whenever they gain a wizard level. Let me know your thoughts.
haferka 05-23-07, 08:59 AM	You earned learned those spells.. they are in your spellbook so you know them.. you just can't cast them untill you regain your level. and when you regain your level.. you will gain 2 more spells.
Lupo 05-23-07, 09:42 AM	I have a Living Greyhawk wizard who just gained a wizard level (4th to 5th). He chose 2 new 3rd level spells and wrote them in his spell book. He then died the next mod, but was raised half way between 4th and 5th level wizard. What happens to the 2 3rd level spells he wrote into his spell book? I would think they would still be there; he just cannot use them until he gets to 5th level wizard again. When he goes to 5th level wizard again, does he get to chose two more spells? I would think that he would since a wizard can choose two new spells whenever they gain a wizard level. Let me know your thoughts. there was a debate on this somewhere . . . anyway, you loose the "free" spells, but may keep any spells that you copied from other wizards or from other sources and payed for (or not, in the case of a boocob's blessed book). with loosing a level, you loose ALL benefits of the leveling, even the scribed spells and any knowledge of them. ciao martin m.
haferka 05-23-07, 09:50 AM	there was a debate on this somewhere . . . anyway, you loose the "free" spells, but may keep any spells that you copied from other wizards or from other sources and payed for (or not, in the case of a boocob's blessed book). with loosing a level, you loose ALL benefits of the leveling, even the scribed spells and any knowledge of them. ciao martin m. I could see how people would have a problem with this.. but.. its a core rules issue.. Even if you "loose" the bonus spells they still exist in your spellbook.
Lupo 05-23-07, 10:01 AM	I could see how people would have a problem with this.. but.. its a core rules issue.. Even if you "loose" the bonus spells they still exist in your spellbook. no, either they are vanishing from your spellbook OR you have to take the same spells again when leveling. every other way of dealing with this would create a benefit for loosing a level. and i think this discussion has already taken place, just check the various yahoo groups, or these boards. ciao martin m.
haferka 05-23-07, 10:38 AM	no, either they are vanishing from your spellbook OR you have to take the same spells again when leveling. every other way of dealing with this would create a benefit for loosing a level. and i think this discussion has already taken place, just check the various yahoo groups, or these boards. ciao martin m. If you loose the bonus spells known.. they are removed from your spells known list.. BUT.. they do NOT disapear from your spellbook.. Either you would need to re-scribe them.. or "master" your own spellbook to get them back onto your "spells known" list..
Dominick 05-23-07, 11:04 AM	Had a Barbarian that took a Cleric level, among other things he gained literacy. He died; he lost the Cleric level, and loses literacy. Doesn't make sense but, oh well, it doesn't make sense that a fireball comes out of a little stick and explodes exactly in a circular pattern, its so accurate you can position it near your friends. I RPed it like he got hit so hard, he forgot how to read and lost faith in Kord. He stumbles around with a bandaged head for a while.
bitznarf 05-23-07, 11:05 AM	Don't forget that if you hit a centaur hard enough, he can shrink.
JJeff 05-23-07, 12:20 PM	While we are roughly on the topic of Wizards and spells, can a Wizard copy a higher level spell than he can cast into his spellbook for future use?
Howie23 05-23-07, 01:28 PM	While we are roughly on the topic of Wizards and spells, can a Wizard copy a higher level spell than he can cast into his spellbook for future use? If he can make the spellcraft, yes. There is no restriction. Level-up spells have to be castable, but copied spells don't. David
jhorred 05-23-07, 04:26 PM	When my wizard died and went from 8th to 7th, I left the spells in the spellbok but I didn't take more spells again when I releved. I figured this was the easiest and most conservative way to do it.
kschaecher 05-23-07, 09:27 PM	Thanks guys for the comments. Still don't know what to do. I guess that I will write the region coordinator and get a ruling from them.
haferka 05-24-07, 07:55 AM	If you don't care about adding 2 new spells.. you could just pick the same ones that you previously lost.. No arguments..
chesspiece 05-24-07, 05:53 PM	IIRC, Britt once said that the Table GM can rule on issues similar to this (that may have long-term effects on equipment, etc.) when it happens. But then clarified that if a later GM finds this objectionable, they can over-rule. I'll try to find the quote / context on the weekend if this isn't confirmed / denied by then. ;) So... you probably should have asked your GM at the table when the wizard died. Barring that, ask your next GM. If you agree with those of us that feel this shouldn't be a benefit, you could: - remove the 2 spells and learn 2 new ones at the next level up - keep the 2 spells and not learn new ones at the next level up - one of the similar options (spell is there but you no longer 'know' it) This discussion has gone around a few times without a Circle ruling. So let your next GM have it their way (maybe adding a note to an AR) and you can't go wrong.
JJeff 05-24-07, 09:40 PM	And for the record, I am a GM that wouldn't mind if you didn't remove the 2 spells learnt and learnt two more when you re-leveled. I feel that the Class feature is the "free-ness" of the two spells, not the scribing into the spellbook, so the spells stay in the spellbook. I think dying and coming back from the dead is rather bad enough to have to have 2 spells ripped from your head. But I'll abide by any other previous GM's ruling on any character that passes my table.
LGMoses 05-25-07, 02:32 AM	If you loose the OMG ITS LOSE LOSE!!! :BANGHEAD:
JJeff 05-25-07, 03:45 AM	OMG ITS LOSE LOSE!!! :BANGHEAD: Ok...Ok... Calm down. Casts Calm Emotions and begins Diplomacy check the next round
Lupo 05-25-07, 08:21 AM	And for the record, I am a GM that wouldn't mind if you didn't remove the 2 spells learnt and learnt two more when you re-leveled. I feel that the Class feature is the "free-ness" of the two spells, not the scribing into the spellbook, so the spells stay in the spellbook. I think dying and coming back from the dead is rather bad enough to have to have 2 spells ripped from your head. But I'll abide by any other previous GM's ruling on any character that passes my table. :confused: arcanist ONE dies, resets spells known to last level, has lost all knowledge of the lost spells. :confused: arcanist TWO dies, resets spells known to last level, has lost all knowledge of the lost spells. now look at this scenario when arcanist ONE is a sorcerer and arcanist TWO is a wizard:rolleyes: . to me, the free spells aren't a "class feature" but a "leveling" feature. just for game balance issues the two free spells should be erased from the spellbook as well, or at least the wizard should be forced to take the same spells when leveling - and even this may cause some additional problems: what if said passed wizard does NOT take a wizard level with next leveling, but a class that does not add to his previous spellcasting class?? what if other arcanists copy the "surplus" spells from the wizard's spell book?? what if the wizard now casts a "limited wish" to duplicate one of these spells - and the spell in question is NONC?? what if access to the source of NONC spells expire while the wizard is adventuring till his next level, can he still learn the now closed spells?? just think about these problems ;) ciao martin m. ps: yes i have one and in a fourth night two wizard characters in LG, and i don't plan for "convenient" death scheduling, although dying in LG has more benefits than downsides IF most of the gp are paid with overcap or favors AND the character was less than half way on XP for the next level. [both my top characters had terminal accidents a few XP short of leveling and even then, the negative effects were way less negative than the advantages were positive :)] .
ThaiGQ 05-26-07, 05:55 AM	OMG ITS LOSE LOSE!!! :BANGHEAD: LOL... I'm actually inclined to side with LGMoses on this one...I just wanted to see if anyone else wanted to point it out. :P