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Questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jokem
05-02-06, 05:19 PM I have several questions.

1) Are answers given here 'official' or do the answers have to come from
the Triad or Circle, etc.?

2) Countersong must a readied action for a Bard, but can the Bard start
the song up and keep it going to counter expected sonic effects?

3) The spell Shilleligh (sp?) allows a club (even a large club) to be become
a magic weapon dealing damage like it is two sizes larger. Can this be used
on a Greatclub (it is a 'large' weapon and it is a club)? What about other
weapons made exclusively of wood or non metalic material (like Nunchaku).

4) Can spells from items like scrolls and wands be used to cast spells into
spell storing devices?
Arvagor
05-02-06, 05:33 PM 1) Are answers given here 'official' or do the answers have to come from
the Triad or Circle, etc.?Depends on whether a Triad or Circle member answers them; I am neither ;)
3) The spell Shilleligh (sp?) allows a club (even a large club) to be become
a magic weapon dealing damage like it is two sizes larger. Can this be used
on a Greatclub (it is a 'large' weapon and it is a club)? What about other
weapons made exclusively of wood or non metalic material (like Nunchaku).The target entry for shillelagh says "One touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff". Clubs and quarterstaves are weapons with which druids are proficient; great clubs and nunchaku are not. It make sense (in my mind, at least) that the spell therefore affects only clubs and quarterstaves as they are described in the PHB.

And if you don't like that answer, don't worry; it'll apparently disappear whenever these boards are upgraded :P
jokem
05-02-06, 05:46 PM Depends on whether a Triad or Circle member answers them; I am neither ;)
The target entry for shillelagh says "One touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff". Clubs and quarterstaves are weapons with which druids are proficient; great clubs and nunchaku are not. It make sense (in my mind, at least) that the spell therefore affects only clubs and quarterstaves as they are described in the PHB.

And if you don't like that answer, don't worry; it'll apparently disappear whenever these boards are upgraded :P

Druids are not proficient in Large Clubs either, yet they are included in the
spell description. A Druid could just take the Non-proficiency penalty, or
use a feat to get proficiency, or like mine, muticlass as a Barbarian.
Sieylianna
05-02-06, 06:49 PM Druids are not proficient in Large Clubs either, yet they are included in the
spell description. A Druid could just take the Non-proficiency penalty, or
use a feat to get proficiency, or like mine, muticlass as a Barbarian.

You're going to see variation from table to table. Do you have AR access for a large club?

Ed
DarkKnight
05-02-06, 08:39 PM I have several questions.

3) The spell Shilleligh (sp?) allows a club (even a large club) to be become
a magic weapon dealing damage like it is two sizes larger. Can this be used
on a Greatclub (it is a 'large' weapon and it is a club)? What about other
weapons made exclusively of wood or non metalic material (like Nunchaku).

Not to nit pick... Ok, that's what I'm going to do. A Greatclub is not a "large" weapon. It it a two-handed martial weapon that you can buy in either small or medium sizes from the PHB. In order to purchase a "large" greatclub you need access from an AR, this may have already been pointed out but I'm just trying to clerify.
Madfox11
05-03-06, 04:29 AM 1) Are answers given here 'official' or do the answers have to come from the Triad or Circle, etc.?

Official answers need to come from the Triad and Circle, but remember that we cannot give official answers on vague rule mechanics. Those are either answered by the DM on your table, the FAQ or WotC customers support. During evens there is also a senior DM, and that person can overrule rulings of the DM - will not happen very often though.

2) Countersong must a readied action for a Bard, but can the Bard start the song up and keep it going to counter expected sonic effects?

Take a look at the SRD on countersong: "Each round of the countersong, he makes a Perform check"

In short, a bard does NOT have to ready an action to activate it. He simply starts counter songing, and as long as he is doing it, he makes 1 Perform check per round which all allies within range use as a save in case somebody needs to make a save for an effect that is countered by counter song. For example, if a bard starts to counter-song for the harpies song, it will also work against the sound blast spell cast by the enemy cleric.

3) The spell Shilleligh (sp?) allows a club (even a large club) to be become a magic weapon dealing damage like it is two sizes larger. Can this be used on a Greatclub (it is a 'large' weapon and it is a club)? What about other weapons made exclusively of wood or non metalic material (like Nunchaku).

The spell specifies the targets as: club and quarterstaff. Hence it does NOT work on great clubs or nunchaku's. It might look a bit odd that it would work on a Large club and not a great club, but since those two weapons do deal different amounts of damage (1d8 and 1d10 respectively) it should be clear it are different weapons ;) There are spells that target Any Wooden Weapon in case you are wondering (spikes springs to mind).

4) Can spells from items like scrolls and wands be used to cast spells into spell storing devices?

Yep, but it will be at the CL of the scroll and wand, as well as the save DCs for those items. Scrolls and wands cast the spell as normal. Now, I don't think you could do the same with wondrous items though...

Pieter Sleijpen,
Circle Member
Splintered Suns Metaregion
jokem
05-03-06, 09:46 AM Official answers need to come from the Triad and Circle, but remember that we cannot give official answers on vague rule mechanics. Those are either answered by the DM on your table, the FAQ or WotC customers support. During evens there is also a senior DM, and that person can overrule rulings of the DM - will not happen very often though.

Take a look at the SRD on countersong: "Each round of the countersong, he makes a Perform check"

In short, a bard does NOT have to ready an action to activate it. He simply starts counter songing, and as long as he is doing it, he makes 1 Perform check per round which all allies within range use as a save in case somebody needs to make a save for an effect that is countered by counter song. For example, if a bard starts to counter-song for the harpies song, it will also work against the sound blast spell cast by the enemy cleric.

The spell specifies the targets as: club and quarterstaff. Hence it does NOT work on great clubs or nunchaku's. It might look a bit odd that it would work on a Large club and not a great club, but since those two weapons do deal different amounts of damage (1d8 and 1d10 respectively) it should be clear it are different weapons ;) There are spells that target Any Wooden Weapon in case you are wondering (spikes springs to mind).

Yep, but it will be at the CL of the scroll and wand, as well as the save DCs for those items. Scrolls and wands cast the spell as normal. Now, I don't think you could do the same with wondrous items though...

Pieter Sleijpen,
Circle Member
Splintered Suns Metaregion

Thanks for your response. I presume since you are a Circle Member your
answers will be as good as getting it from my own Circle for the BK. Glad
to get a legitimate circle member's response.

Regarding Countersong, I was probably remembering the rule for 3.0, right?
It said it was a readied action? So it can be started and kept running and
counts as one use of Bard Song? Here is another wrinkle, can another Bard
start up his own bard song to play a duet, accompany the primary Bard
and give a synergy bonus? Also can a Bard accompany himself, that is -
Perform (Sing) and add a synergy bonus by playing a Lute - Perform (String
Instrument)?

You are right in it is odd the spell would work on a Large Club but not on
a Greatclub, but the rules can be pretty fussy about this. Even if access
to a Large Club is obtained, it would still have a non-proficiency penalty
as a Large Club wielded two handed still does not count as a 'Great' weapon?
I do not need access to 'oak' to use a normal club?
Howie23
05-03-06, 04:13 PM You are right in it is odd the spell would work on a Large Club but not on
a Greatclub, but the rules can be pretty fussy about this. Even if access
to a Large Club is obtained, it would still have a non-proficiency penalty
as a Large Club wielded two handed still does not count as a 'Great' weapon?
I do not need access to 'oak' to use a normal club?

A large sized club is a hunk of wood. A greatclub is banded in metal, might have spikes, etc. Two different weapons. The staff of a polearm is wood, too. That doesn't mean you can cast the spell on it. The spell says what it says.

Weapons of the wrong size don't have a non-proficiency penalty in 3.5. The non-proficiency penalty would be -4. Rather, they have a -2 penalty for using a weapon of inappropriate size. A large club used by a medium creature is a two-handed weapon. It isn't a greatclub (no iron bands and spikes).

You generally won't find judges requiring access to oak.

David
Howie23
05-03-06, 04:22 PM 1) Are answers given here 'official' or do the answers have to come from
the Triad or Circle, etc.?

Rulings about D&D rules (as opposed to campaign rules) are official when published in accepted books, D&D FAQ, Errata, or other locations as specified in the LGCS. Not here, regardless of who is posting. Don't get me wrong, I'd pay attention to the posts of the Circle and Triad members who post here as generally knowledgable players. Just don't expect to print up the answer and use it to force a table judge ruling to be overturned.

David
jokem
05-03-06, 04:33 PM A large sized club is a hunk of wood. A greatclub is banded in metal, might have spikes, etc. Two different weapons. The staff of a polearm is wood, too. That doesn't mean you can cast the spell on it. The spell says what it says.

Weapons of the wrong size don't have a non-proficiency penalty in 3.5. The non-proficiency penalty would be -4. Rather, they have a -2 penalty for using a weapon of inappropriate size. A large club used by a medium creature is a two-handed weapon. It isn't a greatclub (no iron bands and spikes).

You generally won't find judges requiring access to oak.

David

The metal bindings on a Greatclub are optional.

So a large club weilded two handed has no penalty, and a -2 penalty one
handed?

Someone told me this had been redefined, but allowed the penalty to be
reduced via the Feat Monkey Grip.
Arvagor
05-03-06, 05:22 PM Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.Meaning, if the weapon isn't size the same as you, you take a -2 penalty, period.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.Meaning, a large club, which is normally a one-handed weapon for a Large creature, becomes a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature. So a Large Greatclub, which is a two-handed weapon for a Large creature, cannot normally be wielded at all by a Medium creature.

The Monkey Grip feat from Complete Warrior does not remove the -2 penalty for inappropriate size, but it does let you wield a larger weapon without additional effort. I.e., if a Medium creature has the Monkey Grip feat, then it can wield a Large two-handed weapon in two hands or a Large one-handed weapon in one hand.
Howie23
05-03-06, 05:53 PM The metal bindings on a Greatclub are optional.

So a large club weilded two handed has no penalty, and a -2 penalty one
handed?

Someone told me this had been redefined, but allowed the penalty to be
reduced via the Feat Monkey Grip.

I'm using the metal bands to demonstrate the possible range of difference. The point remains the same. In the abstract, they are different weapons. Modifying one through the color text re: options, etc. doesn't matter. They never become the same thing. This is something that some people will just never agree about. Think of it this way....If you take weapon focus club, you get no bonus with greatclub. If you take weapon focus great axe, no benefit for battleaxe, throwing axe, etc. Same thing.

A large club used by a medium character must be used two handed and incurs a -2 penalty. It would also have a -4 penalty if non-proficient in club (total of -6). The penalty is cummulative if more than one size difference off. So, a small halfling using a large ogre's kama would do so with two hands, incur a -4 inappropriate size penalty, and probably a -4 penalty for an exotic weapon (assuming he's not proficient), for a total of -8. One hand is not an option at all.

Monkey feat changes the effort requirement (light becomes one-handed, one handed becomes two-handed, two-handed becomes impossible), but not the -2 penalty.
Madfox11
05-04-06, 04:00 AM Thanks for your response. I presume since you are a Circle Member your
answers will be as good as getting it from my own Circle for the BK. Glad
to get a legitimate circle member's response.

Which is to say that in case of grey areas in the D&D rules it can still be overruled by your DM and definitely a senior DM on a convention. Mind you, I doubt you will get many different rulings on the answers I gave you...

Regarding Countersong, I was probably remembering the rule for 3.0, right? It said it was a readied action? So it can be started and kept running and counts as one use of Bard Song? Here is another wrinkle, can another Bard start up his own bard song to play a duet, accompany the primary Bard
and give a synergy bonus? Also can a Bard accompany himself, that is -
Perform (Sing) and add a synergy bonus by playing a Lute - Perform (String
Instrument)?

Could be, but the specific rules for 3.0 have become a bit vague...

Another bard can definitely assist a bard as per normal "aid another rules", though it would cost that bard a bard song use as well. I really wonder whether it is worthwhile to do so, but that is just me. As for synergy bonusses, Perform (sing) does not grant a synergy to bonus to Perform (string) instruments by the book. So, I would say no.

You are right in it is odd the spell would work on a Large Club but not on a Greatclub, but the rules can be pretty fussy about this. Even if access to a Large Club is obtained, it would still have a non-proficiency penalty as a Large Club wielded two handed still does not count as a 'Great' weapon? I do not need access to 'oak' to use a normal club?

You are proficient with a Large Club if you are proficient with a Medium Club - which is about everybody. In that regard size does not matter. Like others said, you do get a -2 penalty for the incorrect size, and you do need two hands. As for the oak part, that is just "fluff". If you want your club or quarterstaff to be made out of oak wood there is no problem. Just hope you do not live in the Amedeo Jungle - there are no oaks there ;)
Casebier
05-09-06, 12:00 PM Regarding Countersong, I was probably remembering the rule for 3.0, right?
It said it was a readied action? So it can be started and kept running and
counts as one use of Bard Song? Here is another wrinkle, can another Bard
start up his own bard song to play a duet, accompany the primary Bard
and give a synergy bonus? Also can a Bard accompany himself, that is -
Perform (Sing) and add a synergy bonus by playing a Lute - Perform (String
Instrument)?
With the Versatile Performer feat, a character can make a combined Perform check with two different performance types, provided he can do both of them at the same time. This grants a +2 bonus to the higher modifier of the two. The feat also allows you to duplicate the ranks you have in your highest Perform skill to a certain number of other Perform types equal to your Real Intelligence modifer.

John Jr
jokem
05-11-06, 02:17 PM Thanks to everyone who contributed, especially the Circle Member(s).

I know that a Circle Member here does not make an answer 'official' but
probably carries some 'influence' when the decision is ambiguous.

My character does not need 'access' to get an Oak Weapon, but does need
access to obtain an oversize (large) weapon. It should not be that hard
to make a Large Club out of Oak though, but OK.

A large weapon is not the same as a two-handed weapon, but both need
to be weilded two-handed by a medium sized character. There is a size
penalty (non a non-proficiency penalty) of -2 for the large weapon.

A bard cannot accompany himself to gain a synergy bonus on a perform
check on countersong.

One more question, can a Bard use Perform (string instrument) and Perform
(sing) at the same time to get two perform checks? And would that take
two uses of Bard Song for Countersong?
Arvagor
05-11-06, 03:10 PM A large weapon is not the same as a two-handed weapon, but both need
to be weilded two-handed by a medium sized character. There is a size
penalty (non a non-proficiency penalty) of -2 for the large weapon.Mostly accurate... A Large light weapon (for example, a Large dagger) could be wielded in one hand by a Medium creature; the -2 penalty for inappropriate size would still apply, though.
solbergb
05-11-06, 03:53 PM My character does not need 'access' to get an Oak Weapon, but does need
access to obtain an oversize (large) weapon. It should not be that hard
to make a Large Club out of Oak though, but OK.

A way around this is to craft during the adventure, using "Craft Weaponsmith". If there is oak lying around, some judges will let you use wood shape to speed up the crafting time, especially if you can make the difficulty DC on a "take 1". Most mods don't give you the downtime to craft at normal speeds. Fabricate spell is a way that always works, but not available to druids. You could have a bag full of clubs that add up to the weight of large club for raw materials...

Use the LGCS Fabricate rules as a guideline for creating stuff during a mod. It won't persist past the mod, but if you can make it in the timeframe of the mod, you can use it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jokem 05-02-06, 05:19 PM	I have several questions. 1) Are answers given here 'official' or do the answers have to come from the Triad or Circle, etc.? 2) Countersong must a readied action for a Bard, but can the Bard start the song up and keep it going to counter expected sonic effects? 3) The spell Shilleligh (sp?) allows a club (even a large club) to be become a magic weapon dealing damage like it is two sizes larger. Can this be used on a Greatclub (it is a 'large' weapon and it is a club)? What about other weapons made exclusively of wood or non metalic material (like Nunchaku). 4) Can spells from items like scrolls and wands be used to cast spells into spell storing devices?
Arvagor 05-02-06, 05:33 PM	1) Are answers given here 'official' or do the answers have to come from the Triad or Circle, etc.?Depends on whether a Triad or Circle member answers them; I am neither ;) 3) The spell Shilleligh (sp?) allows a club (even a large club) to be become a magic weapon dealing damage like it is two sizes larger. Can this be used on a Greatclub (it is a 'large' weapon and it is a club)? What about other weapons made exclusively of wood or non metalic material (like Nunchaku).The target entry for shillelagh says "One touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff". Clubs and quarterstaves are weapons with which druids are proficient; great clubs and nunchaku are not. It make sense (in my mind, at least) that the spell therefore affects only clubs and quarterstaves as they are described in the PHB. And if you don't like that answer, don't worry; it'll apparently disappear whenever these boards are upgraded :P
jokem 05-02-06, 05:46 PM	Depends on whether a Triad or Circle member answers them; I am neither ;) The target entry for shillelagh says "One touched nonmagical oak club or quarterstaff". Clubs and quarterstaves are weapons with which druids are proficient; great clubs and nunchaku are not. It make sense (in my mind, at least) that the spell therefore affects only clubs and quarterstaves as they are described in the PHB. And if you don't like that answer, don't worry; it'll apparently disappear whenever these boards are upgraded :P Druids are not proficient in Large Clubs either, yet they are included in the spell description. A Druid could just take the Non-proficiency penalty, or use a feat to get proficiency, or like mine, muticlass as a Barbarian.
Sieylianna 05-02-06, 06:49 PM	Druids are not proficient in Large Clubs either, yet they are included in the spell description. A Druid could just take the Non-proficiency penalty, or use a feat to get proficiency, or like mine, muticlass as a Barbarian. You're going to see variation from table to table. Do you have AR access for a large club? Ed
DarkKnight 05-02-06, 08:39 PM	I have several questions. 3) The spell Shilleligh (sp?) allows a club (even a large club) to be become a magic weapon dealing damage like it is two sizes larger. Can this be used on a Greatclub (it is a 'large' weapon and it is a club)? What about other weapons made exclusively of wood or non metalic material (like Nunchaku). Not to nit pick... Ok, that's what I'm going to do. A Greatclub is not a "large" weapon. It it a two-handed martial weapon that you can buy in either small or medium sizes from the PHB. In order to purchase a "large" greatclub you need access from an AR, this may have already been pointed out but I'm just trying to clerify.
Madfox11 05-03-06, 04:29 AM	1) Are answers given here 'official' or do the answers have to come from the Triad or Circle, etc.? Official answers need to come from the Triad and Circle, but remember that we cannot give official answers on vague rule mechanics. Those are either answered by the DM on your table, the FAQ or WotC customers support. During evens there is also a senior DM, and that person can overrule rulings of the DM - will not happen very often though. 2) Countersong must a readied action for a Bard, but can the Bard start the song up and keep it going to counter expected sonic effects? Take a look at the SRD on countersong: "Each round of the countersong, he makes a Perform check" In short, a bard does NOT have to ready an action to activate it. He simply starts counter songing, and as long as he is doing it, he makes 1 Perform check per round which all allies within range use as a save in case somebody needs to make a save for an effect that is countered by counter song. For example, if a bard starts to counter-song for the harpies song, it will also work against the sound blast spell cast by the enemy cleric. 3) The spell Shilleligh (sp?) allows a club (even a large club) to be become a magic weapon dealing damage like it is two sizes larger. Can this be used on a Greatclub (it is a 'large' weapon and it is a club)? What about other weapons made exclusively of wood or non metalic material (like Nunchaku). The spell specifies the targets as: club and quarterstaff. Hence it does NOT work on great clubs or nunchaku's. It might look a bit odd that it would work on a Large club and not a great club, but since those two weapons do deal different amounts of damage (1d8 and 1d10 respectively) it should be clear it are different weapons ;) There are spells that target Any Wooden Weapon in case you are wondering (spikes springs to mind). 4) Can spells from items like scrolls and wands be used to cast spells into spell storing devices? Yep, but it will be at the CL of the scroll and wand, as well as the save DCs for those items. Scrolls and wands cast the spell as normal. Now, I don't think you could do the same with wondrous items though... Pieter Sleijpen, Circle Member Splintered Suns Metaregion
jokem 05-03-06, 09:46 AM	Official answers need to come from the Triad and Circle, but remember that we cannot give official answers on vague rule mechanics. Those are either answered by the DM on your table, the FAQ or WotC customers support. During evens there is also a senior DM, and that person can overrule rulings of the DM - will not happen very often though. Take a look at the SRD on countersong: "Each round of the countersong, he makes a Perform check" In short, a bard does NOT have to ready an action to activate it. He simply starts counter songing, and as long as he is doing it, he makes 1 Perform check per round which all allies within range use as a save in case somebody needs to make a save for an effect that is countered by counter song. For example, if a bard starts to counter-song for the harpies song, it will also work against the sound blast spell cast by the enemy cleric. The spell specifies the targets as: club and quarterstaff. Hence it does NOT work on great clubs or nunchaku's. It might look a bit odd that it would work on a Large club and not a great club, but since those two weapons do deal different amounts of damage (1d8 and 1d10 respectively) it should be clear it are different weapons ;) There are spells that target Any Wooden Weapon in case you are wondering (spikes springs to mind). Yep, but it will be at the CL of the scroll and wand, as well as the save DCs for those items. Scrolls and wands cast the spell as normal. Now, I don't think you could do the same with wondrous items though... Pieter Sleijpen, Circle Member Splintered Suns Metaregion Thanks for your response. I presume since you are a Circle Member your answers will be as good as getting it from my own Circle for the BK. Glad to get a legitimate circle member's response. Regarding Countersong, I was probably remembering the rule for 3.0, right? It said it was a readied action? So it can be started and kept running and counts as one use of Bard Song? Here is another wrinkle, can another Bard start up his own bard song to play a duet, accompany the primary Bard and give a synergy bonus? Also can a Bard accompany himself, that is - Perform (Sing) and add a synergy bonus by playing a Lute - Perform (String Instrument)? You are right in it is odd the spell would work on a Large Club but not on a Greatclub, but the rules can be pretty fussy about this. Even if access to a Large Club is obtained, it would still have a non-proficiency penalty as a Large Club wielded two handed still does not count as a 'Great' weapon? I do not need access to 'oak' to use a normal club?
Howie23 05-03-06, 04:13 PM	You are right in it is odd the spell would work on a Large Club but not on a Greatclub, but the rules can be pretty fussy about this. Even if access to a Large Club is obtained, it would still have a non-proficiency penalty as a Large Club wielded two handed still does not count as a 'Great' weapon? I do not need access to 'oak' to use a normal club? A large sized club is a hunk of wood. A greatclub is banded in metal, might have spikes, etc. Two different weapons. The staff of a polearm is wood, too. That doesn't mean you can cast the spell on it. The spell says what it says. Weapons of the wrong size don't have a non-proficiency penalty in 3.5. The non-proficiency penalty would be -4. Rather, they have a -2 penalty for using a weapon of inappropriate size. A large club used by a medium creature is a two-handed weapon. It isn't a greatclub (no iron bands and spikes). You generally won't find judges requiring access to oak. David
Howie23 05-03-06, 04:22 PM	1) Are answers given here 'official' or do the answers have to come from the Triad or Circle, etc.? Rulings about D&D rules (as opposed to campaign rules) are official when published in accepted books, D&D FAQ, Errata, or other locations as specified in the LGCS. Not here, regardless of who is posting. Don't get me wrong, I'd pay attention to the posts of the Circle and Triad members who post here as generally knowledgable players. Just don't expect to print up the answer and use it to force a table judge ruling to be overturned. David
jokem 05-03-06, 04:33 PM	A large sized club is a hunk of wood. A greatclub is banded in metal, might have spikes, etc. Two different weapons. The staff of a polearm is wood, too. That doesn't mean you can cast the spell on it. The spell says what it says. Weapons of the wrong size don't have a non-proficiency penalty in 3.5. The non-proficiency penalty would be -4. Rather, they have a -2 penalty for using a weapon of inappropriate size. A large club used by a medium creature is a two-handed weapon. It isn't a greatclub (no iron bands and spikes). You generally won't find judges requiring access to oak. David The metal bindings on a Greatclub are optional. So a large club weilded two handed has no penalty, and a -2 penalty one handed? Someone told me this had been redefined, but allowed the penalty to be reduced via the Feat Monkey Grip.
Arvagor 05-03-06, 05:22 PM	Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.Meaning, if the weapon isn't size the same as you, you take a -2 penalty, period. The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.Meaning, a large club, which is normally a one-handed weapon for a Large creature, becomes a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature. So a Large Greatclub, which is a two-handed weapon for a Large creature, cannot normally be wielded at all by a Medium creature. The Monkey Grip feat from Complete Warrior does not remove the -2 penalty for inappropriate size, but it does let you wield a larger weapon without additional effort. I.e., if a Medium creature has the Monkey Grip feat, then it can wield a Large two-handed weapon in two hands or a Large one-handed weapon in one hand.
Howie23 05-03-06, 05:53 PM	The metal bindings on a Greatclub are optional. So a large club weilded two handed has no penalty, and a -2 penalty one handed? Someone told me this had been redefined, but allowed the penalty to be reduced via the Feat Monkey Grip. I'm using the metal bands to demonstrate the possible range of difference. The point remains the same. In the abstract, they are different weapons. Modifying one through the color text re: options, etc. doesn't matter. They never become the same thing. This is something that some people will just never agree about. Think of it this way....If you take weapon focus club, you get no bonus with greatclub. If you take weapon focus great axe, no benefit for battleaxe, throwing axe, etc. Same thing. A large club used by a medium character must be used two handed and incurs a -2 penalty. It would also have a -4 penalty if non-proficient in club (total of -6). The penalty is cummulative if more than one size difference off. So, a small halfling using a large ogre's kama would do so with two hands, incur a -4 inappropriate size penalty, and probably a -4 penalty for an exotic weapon (assuming he's not proficient), for a total of -8. One hand is not an option at all. Monkey feat changes the effort requirement (light becomes one-handed, one handed becomes two-handed, two-handed becomes impossible), but not the -2 penalty.
Madfox11 05-04-06, 04:00 AM	Thanks for your response. I presume since you are a Circle Member your answers will be as good as getting it from my own Circle for the BK. Glad to get a legitimate circle member's response. Which is to say that in case of grey areas in the D&D rules it can still be overruled by your DM and definitely a senior DM on a convention. Mind you, I doubt you will get many different rulings on the answers I gave you... Regarding Countersong, I was probably remembering the rule for 3.0, right? It said it was a readied action? So it can be started and kept running and counts as one use of Bard Song? Here is another wrinkle, can another Bard start up his own bard song to play a duet, accompany the primary Bard and give a synergy bonus? Also can a Bard accompany himself, that is - Perform (Sing) and add a synergy bonus by playing a Lute - Perform (String Instrument)? Could be, but the specific rules for 3.0 have become a bit vague... Another bard can definitely assist a bard as per normal "aid another rules", though it would cost that bard a bard song use as well. I really wonder whether it is worthwhile to do so, but that is just me. As for synergy bonusses, Perform (sing) does not grant a synergy to bonus to Perform (string) instruments by the book. So, I would say no. You are right in it is odd the spell would work on a Large Club but not on a Greatclub, but the rules can be pretty fussy about this. Even if access to a Large Club is obtained, it would still have a non-proficiency penalty as a Large Club wielded two handed still does not count as a 'Great' weapon? I do not need access to 'oak' to use a normal club? You are proficient with a Large Club if you are proficient with a Medium Club - which is about everybody. In that regard size does not matter. Like others said, you do get a -2 penalty for the incorrect size, and you do need two hands. As for the oak part, that is just "fluff". If you want your club or quarterstaff to be made out of oak wood there is no problem. Just hope you do not live in the Amedeo Jungle - there are no oaks there ;)
Casebier 05-09-06, 12:00 PM	Regarding Countersong, I was probably remembering the rule for 3.0, right? It said it was a readied action? So it can be started and kept running and counts as one use of Bard Song? Here is another wrinkle, can another Bard start up his own bard song to play a duet, accompany the primary Bard and give a synergy bonus? Also can a Bard accompany himself, that is - Perform (Sing) and add a synergy bonus by playing a Lute - Perform (String Instrument)? With the Versatile Performer feat, a character can make a combined Perform check with two different performance types, provided he can do both of them at the same time. This grants a +2 bonus to the higher modifier of the two. The feat also allows you to duplicate the ranks you have in your highest Perform skill to a certain number of other Perform types equal to your Real Intelligence modifer. John Jr
jokem 05-11-06, 02:17 PM	Thanks to everyone who contributed, especially the Circle Member(s). I know that a Circle Member here does not make an answer 'official' but probably carries some 'influence' when the decision is ambiguous. My character does not need 'access' to get an Oak Weapon, but does need access to obtain an oversize (large) weapon. It should not be that hard to make a Large Club out of Oak though, but OK. A large weapon is not the same as a two-handed weapon, but both need to be weilded two-handed by a medium sized character. There is a size penalty (non a non-proficiency penalty) of -2 for the large weapon. A bard cannot accompany himself to gain a synergy bonus on a perform check on countersong. One more question, can a Bard use Perform (string instrument) and Perform (sing) at the same time to get two perform checks? And would that take two uses of Bard Song for Countersong?
Arvagor 05-11-06, 03:10 PM	A large weapon is not the same as a two-handed weapon, but both need to be weilded two-handed by a medium sized character. There is a size penalty (non a non-proficiency penalty) of -2 for the large weapon.Mostly accurate... A Large light weapon (for example, a Large dagger) could be wielded in one hand by a Medium creature; the -2 penalty for inappropriate size would still apply, though.
solbergb 05-11-06, 03:53 PM	My character does not need 'access' to get an Oak Weapon, but does need access to obtain an oversize (large) weapon. It should not be that hard to make a Large Club out of Oak though, but OK. A way around this is to craft during the adventure, using "Craft Weaponsmith". If there is oak lying around, some judges will let you use wood shape to speed up the crafting time, especially if you can make the difficulty DC on a "take 1". Most mods don't give you the downtime to craft at normal speeds. Fabricate spell is a way that always works, but not available to druids. You could have a bag full of clubs that add up to the weight of large club for raw materials... Use the LGCS Fabricate rules as a guideline for creating stuff during a mod. It won't persist past the mod, but if you can make it in the timeframe of the mod, you can use it.