Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_m_ 01-14-07, 10:42 PM	Combat Reflexes, Hold The Line, Reach Weapon, Dex 14. chargin opponent. i get 1 attack when the enemy leaves my 10 foot reach square, and 1 because she charged me. afaik, you can only have 1 aoo of each type per round per enemy, so: does the aoo from hold the count as different for the aoo from them leaving a threatened square, or is the feat useless.
Mithreinmaethor 01-14-07, 10:56 PM	Combat Reflexes, Hold The Line, Reach Weapon, Dex 14. chargin opponent. i get 1 attack when the enemy leaves my 10 foot reach square, and 1 because she charged me. afaik, you can only have 1 aoo of each type per round per enemy, so: does the aoo from hold the count as different for the aoo from them leaving a threatened square, or is the feat useless. I would say that you do get both. One is given but the Hold the Line feat the other is a regular AoO given when the creature enters your threat range.
_m_ 01-14-07, 10:59 PM	I would say that you do get both. One is given but the Hold the Line feat the other is a regular AoO given when the creature enters your threat range. that was how i read it.
Mithreinmaethor 01-14-07, 11:07 PM	Great minds must think alike. Or was that demented minds. I can never remember and the voices in my head are no help
_m_ 01-14-07, 11:09 PM	Great minds must think alike. Or was that demented minds. I can never remember and the voices in my head are no help you're thinking of 'fools never differ'
JJeff 01-14-07, 11:36 PM	I am sure you get both as both are of different triggers. The Hold the Line one is when the enemy ENTERS your Threatened Square The AoO one is for him LEAVING your threatened area (the square 10 feet away).
LachlarlanIII 01-15-07, 04:43 PM	Note, you could ready for the charge as well and get another attack. It would occur before the Hold the Line AoO. If you readied with a spear or similar weapon would you get double damage on all three attacks?
jstorrie 01-15-07, 05:11 PM	You'd only get double damage on the readied attack, not the two AoO's. But you would get one double-damage and two normal, which is effectively four attacks at once... if you can predict when you'll be charged. That's the rub. Two AoO's whenever you get charged is pretty respectable in and of itself.
LachlarlanIII 01-15-07, 05:28 PM	It's even nastier if you have a spiked chain and Improved Trip and Improved Disarm as well :D Take your readied attack, take your AoO from Hold the Line, take your AoO from leaving threatened area to make trip attack, use Improved Trip attack to disarm/hit enemy.
_m_ 01-15-07, 05:36 PM	It's even nastier if you have a spiked chain and Improved Trip and Improved Disarm as well :D Take your readied attack, take your AoO from Hold the Line, take your AoO from leaving threatened area to make trip attack, use Improved Trip attack to disarm/hit enemy. everyone raves about trip. dont get me wrong, its cool, but if you've already had time to swing with power attack, then you can smack the snot out of a chargin enemy befor ever needing to trip it.
LachlarlanIII 01-15-07, 05:41 PM	everyone raves about trip. dont get me wrong, its cool, but if you've already had time to swing with power attack, then you can smack the snot out of a chargin enemy befor ever needing to trip it. Improved Trip isn't about doing damage to them obviously. It's about making them easier for your party to hit while making your party harder to hit. And because someone with Imp. Trip gets to attack again, there's really no reason not to try it. Especially if you can guarantee yourself winning the opposed trip roll. It also negates their charge. If they're on the ground 10 feet away from you, they obviously can't attack you. The disarm you can do when they attempt to stand up/crawl away while in your threatened area.
_m_ 01-15-07, 05:44 PM	Improved Trip isn't about doing damage to them obviously. It's about making them easier for your party to hit while making your party harder to hit. And because someone with Imp. Trip gets to attack again, there's really no reason not to try it. Especially if you can guarantee yourself winning the opposed trip roll. It also negates their charge. If they're on the ground 10 feet away from you, they obviously can't attack you. The disarm you can do when they attempt to stand up/crawl away while in your threatened area. i didnt say trip wasnt good, it is, its cheese, im just saying its not the be all and end all of aoo. i have a mutt fighter who at 6 has spring attack and whirlwind attack, and uses a glaive *grin*
clannagh 01-15-07, 05:56 PM	Improved Trip isn't about doing damage to them obviously. It's about making them easier for your party to hit while making your party harder to hit. And because someone with Imp. Trip gets to attack again, there's really no reason not to try it. Especially if you can guarantee yourself winning the opposed trip roll. It also negates their charge. If they're on the ground 10 feet away from you, they obviously can't attack you. The disarm you can do when they attempt to stand up/crawl away while in your threatened area. Except trip is kinda passe .. everyone does it :) That and he fact that every would be rules expert goes into raptures over trip and tries to do the most insanely illegal things until you jump on them. My level 4 chain fighter might get around to taking trip at 9 or so if he gets really bored but he wants to be different.
_m_ 01-15-07, 07:04 PM	Except trip is kinda passe .. everyone does it :) That and he fact that every would be rules expert goes into raptures over trip and tries to do the most insanely illegal things until you jump on them. My level 4 chain fighter might get around to taking trip at 9 or so if he gets really bored but he wants to be different. i agree. its too normal. id rather kick them in the face then trip them on it.
Some_call_me_Tim 01-15-07, 07:11 PM	Improved Trip isn't about doing damage to them obviously. It's about making them easier for your party to hit while making your party harder to hit. And because someone with Imp. Trip gets to attack again, there's really no reason not to try it. Especially if you can guarantee yourself winning the opposed trip roll.Other than how can you 'guarantee' an opposed roll. You would need a strength modifier that's 20 points higher, not bloody likely. And if have one that much higher I doubt they are a threat anyway. I typically see the usefulness of trip drop off with the enforcement of the rules on reactionary trip attempt. I've had players of 3rd to 5th level chain fighters act surprised at a con I was judging because they never knew about it, none of their previous judges ever tried. You also don't get the +4 for improved trip to avoid being tripped in return. How many trip attempts fail the touch attack roll? 20-25% maybe. [I know someone will say, yeah but they would have missed anyway. True but what about the times you roll a natural 20 or otherwise really high on the touch attack but then roll very poorly on the free melee attack? So, this really cancels out the attack roll for the purposes of my calculations.] Assuming you have the same STR modifier (and +4 for improved trip) you will only succeed about 2/3 of the time. In the remaining 1/3 of the cases, half the time you will end up prone or weaponless. One chance in five of missing entirely; even if you don't miss there is still one in three of failing the trip, one chance in six of being prone or weaponless; I would say that might be a reason not to try. Now, I'm not trying to say tripping is always bad or even often a bad choice, but it is far from risk free.
_m_ 01-15-07, 07:19 PM	Other than how can you 'guarantee' an opposed roll. You would need a strength modifier that's 20 points higher, not bloody likely. And if have one that much higher I doubt they are a threat anyway. I typically see the usefulness of trip drop off with the enforcement of the rules on reactionary trip attempt. I've had players of 3rd to 5th level chain fighters act surprised at a con I was judging because they never knew about it, none of their previous judges ever tried. You also don't get the +4 for improved trip to avoid being tripped in return. How many trip attempts fail the touch attack roll? 20-25% maybe. [I know someone will say, yeah but they would have missed anyway. True but what about the times you roll a natural 20 or otherwise really high on the touch attack but then roll very poorly on the free melee attack? So, this really cancels out the attack roll for the purposes of my calculations.] Assuming you have the same STR modifier (and +4 for improved trip) you will only succeed about 2/3 of the time. In the remaining 1/3 of the cases, half the time you will end up prone or weaponless. One chance in five of missing entirely; even if you don't miss there is still one in three of failing the trip, one chance in six of being prone or weaponless; I would say that might be a reason not to try. Now, I'm not trying to say tripping is always bad or even often a bad choice, but it is far from risk free. so, um... how do you get tripped from 10 / 15 ft away when u fail your attack? you miss them with a spiked chain, then they spit on you and you slip?
clannagh 01-15-07, 07:27 PM	so, um... how do you get tripped from 10 / 15 ft away when u fail your attack? you miss them with a spiked chain, then they spit on you and you slip? agreed I am not sure how this got to happen at a monitored event like a con but it is clear that they get a free trip ATTEMPT but unless they threaten you they have no means of actually taking advanatage of that opportunity to trip back and making it happen. The actual wording is "If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you. " but how on earth do they actually achieve this interesting opposed roll as you swing your glaive at them ???? Disarming with a reach weapon like a chain is clearly different if your weapon (chain) is in their reach they will get the reactionary return disarm even at 20' if you are an enlarged chain fighter. The table variance here arises from where the chain ends up if they suceed.
LachlarlanIII 01-15-07, 09:24 PM	Other than how can you 'guarantee' an opposed roll. You would need a strength modifier that's 20 points higher, not bloody likely. And if have one that much higher I doubt they are a threat anyway. A character I just built will have a +20 or more on trip/disarm checks at somewhere between 9th and 12th level While not exactly a 'guarantee' as I said it was, it is very close to it. Especially considering it's an opposed Str/Dex check.
LachlarlanIII 01-15-07, 09:32 PM	I am not sure how this got to happen at a monitored event like a con but it is clear that they get a free trip ATTEMPT but unless they threaten you they have no means of actually taking advanatage of that opportunity to trip back and making it happen. The actual wording is "If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you. " but how on earth do they actually achieve this interesting opposed roll as you swing your glaive at them ???? It's inferred based on this text snipped from the Trip entry in the SRD. Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped. The opponent grabs the weapon you just wrapped around or stuck between their leg and pulls.
clannagh 01-15-07, 10:28 PM	It's inferred based on this text snipped from the Trip entry in the SRD. Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you don’t provoke an attack of opportunity. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped. The opponent grabs the weapon you just wrapped around or stuck between their leg and pulls. that is a valid interpretation .. and I would go along with that as a player if the table GM called it taht way however in my games I still rule (equally validly) that the situations referred to assume the defender actually threatens the original tripper and there is no mechanism to threaten soemone with their own reach weapon unless you disarm them first. I know a number of GM's that rule that way so expect table variance.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-16-07, 02:35 AM	however in my games I still rule (equally validly) that the situations referred to assume the defender actually threatens the original tripper and there is no mechanism to threaten someone with their own reach weapon unless you disarm them first. But even in your interpretation, the trip attempt can be avoided if you drop your weapon. So... a failed tactic that leaves you vulnerable to be tripped can be avoided if you just disarm yourself? Consider this: I wrap a flail around your leg (you have say... two long swords). If you have enough opportunity to grab my leg or do a leg sweep, you wouldn't do it, you'd just hit me instead. Not to mention that dropping my flail somehow negates my vulnerability. On the other hand, if all you have to do is take a heavy step back to throw my balance, you'd do that, as it doesn't interfere much with whatever else you're doing. As soon as I feel being pulled off balance, I can either hold on to my flail an fall or I can let the weapon go and stay up. So I agree with LachlarlanIII. I feel similarly similarly about disarming.
LGMoses 01-16-07, 02:17 PM	tripping rocks. Trip whenever you can.
LachlarlanIII 01-16-07, 02:22 PM	tripping rocks. Trip whenever you can. I don't think you can trip rocks. :P
LGMoses 01-16-07, 02:33 PM	Sure u can. Thats what you do when u trip appropriately sized earth elementals isn't it? :D
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 04:05 PM	Just a side note...with a single level of Thief Acrobat, you never have to worry about a failed trip attempt again. You're prone, so what?
cycloptic_squirrel 01-16-07, 06:02 PM	I don't think you can trip rocks. Good old rock. Nothing beats rock.
_m_ 01-16-07, 06:37 PM	But even in your interpretation, the trip attempt can be avoided if you drop your weapon. So... a failed tactic that leaves you vulnerable to be tripped can be avoided if you just disarm yourself? Consider this: I wrap a flail around your leg (you have say... two long swords). If you have enough opportunity to grab my leg or do a leg sweep, you wouldn't do it, you'd just hit me instead. Not to mention that dropping my flail somehow negates my vulnerability. On the other hand, if all you have to do is take a heavy step back to throw my balance, you'd do that, as it doesn't interfere much with whatever else you're doing. As soon as I feel being pulled off balance, I can either hold on to my flail an fall or I can let the weapon go and stay up. So I agree with LachlarlanIII. I feel similarly similarly about disarming. thats not what we were arguing about. sure, if ur up in my face with 2 longswords, fair enough, whack em. but if im 15 feet awaya with a length of chain, theres no way you could trip ME with MY chain when you cant even reach me. what are you going to do, grab it and pull me over? hence the drop the weapon rule :D and yes... nothing beats rock.
Some_call_me_Tim 01-16-07, 07:14 PM	so, um... how do you get tripped from 10 / 15 ft away when u fail your attack? you miss them with a spiked chain, then they spit on you and you slip?I've always interpreted that it is an attempt to trip you using your own weapon, hence the ability to drop your weapon to avoid the trip. Remember you didn't miss them, you only failed to trip them. If you miss the touch attack they don't get this free attempt. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you. There is no requirement for them to threaten you or be armed or anything, they are simply reacting to what you did. Imagine you wrapped a spiked chain around someone's leg, you pull on it but he proves stronger. He reacts and yanks on the chain hard enough that either you go prone or let go of the weapon.
clannagh 01-16-07, 08:59 PM	OK .. so lets say you allow the free opposed strength check to trip back against reach weapons such as glaives and the like on a failed trip. I presume no-one is going to argue that the attack of opportunity (for non improved trip touch attacks) fails if you do not threaten. Sooo ... basically with a reach weaponlike glaive the difference improved trip gives a +4 to opposed trip rolls (presumably when tripping not when tripped) and a free melee attack if you succeed. Seems to me I wouldnt get to excited about the feat if i had a glaive and would take it late in the build.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-07, 09:34 PM	Uhh....you can't even make a trip attack with a glaive...I think you mean Guisarme....
_m_ 01-16-07, 10:48 PM	Uhh....you can't even make a trip attack with a glaive...I think you mean Guisarme.... lol, u know what he means *grin*. the point is still valid.
LachlarlanIII 01-17-07, 12:48 PM	Here's a quandry: If an opponent Charges me, and I disarm him before he gets to me, does he have to finish the Charge?
clannagh 01-17-07, 05:07 PM	Here's a quandry: If an opponent Charges me, and I disarm him before he gets to me, does he have to finish the Charge? there is no option in the rules for conditional actions that change part way depending on the situation .. so I would say yes another quandry .. with hold the line (assuming you only threaten 5' for simplicity) the AoO is invoked just before your opponent moves into your threatened square as part of his charge: - if you disarm as an AoO does the weapon drop adjacent to you or 10' away ??? - if you trip as an AoO does your opponent drop prone adjacent to you or 10' away ??? Assuming 10' away (which makes sense) this has two interesting consequences: - his weapon is in the square behind him - you do not threaten the prone defender and hence may lose your free extra attack from improved trip
Some_call_me_Tim 01-18-07, 12:50 PM	Here's a quandry: If an opponent Charges me, and I disarm him before he gets to me, does he have to finish the Charge? there is no option in the rules for conditional actions that change part way depending on the situation .. so I would say yes There is no requirement in the rules to continue an action once started so I would say no. I liken it to using full attack and dropping the target after the first hit. While I often hear "But you said full attack" the rules don't support this; if fact the rules specifically allow you to decide after the first attack. The only caveats I add are you are still at -2 to AC and they have used a move action (if you moved less than your base speed). At this point they have to decide to continue the charge unarmed, stop, or do something else. If they have moved more than their movement then they only have the option to continue or to stop. Remember, the enemy could still attack unarmed, grapple or bullrush at the end of a charge.