Racial Substitution Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Racial Substitution Levels [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Swiftbrook
02-02-06, 05:47 PM Racial Substitution Levels

Q: Can I use racial substitution levels as presented in Races of Stone and Races of Destiny? What about ‘variant’ versions of the core classes like paladin and ranger as presented in Complete Warrior?

A: No. The LIVING GREYHAWK campaign does not use those rules options.The answer should be Yes.

Allow as many racial substitution levels as possible. They're cool, and I don't think they're overpowered. I’ve been told that the reason why quite a few of the stuff isn't included in LG is b/c the sheer amount of info that DM's and players would be required to know and have.

The sheer volume of material is always increasing. Players and DMs alike, already have the books with these substitution levels in them. Also, each substitution level has a build in disadvantage for each advantage that it gives. I have found them quite balanced. The flavor that they add to the base classes is well worth the extra effort.

-Swiftbrook
JohnduBois
02-02-06, 10:33 PM Not every sub level has disadvantages. Take Dwarf Fighter 1 (the one I would use instantly if allowed). Hit Die bump, Weapon Focus (all axes). You lose a bonus feat, but what fighter doesn't take Weapon Focus?
haferka
02-03-06, 02:37 AM I say... make them all limited. And leave it up the the PCs to find access.
Simpi
02-03-06, 02:50 AM The sheer volume of material is always increasing. Players and DMs alike, already have the books with these substitution levels in them. Also, each substitution level has a build in disadvantage for each advantage that it gives. I have found them quite balanced. The flavor that they add to the base classes is well worth the extra effort.

I say no. The more stuff is in LG, the more change there is that some things allows players to build something so broken that people at Character Optimization would be proud of.

S.H, the guy from Naerie
redgamer
02-03-06, 03:22 AM Many of the racial substitution levels are fine but a few gives only benefits and not actually drawbacks wich ruins it for the rest of them. I disagree with Simpi in that I think the more unique characters can be the better. I also think there is enough uniqueness out there that LG shouldn't have to bother with adding a new mechanic like substitution levels. Flavor... I can give any character the same amount of flavor. Rules don't add flavor you playing a character adds flavor. Racial substitution level do make a character more numerically match racial stereotypes. I guess thats almost the same thing as adding flavor.

edit: Please don't take the above as sarcastic. It sounded pleasant in my head. I don't want anyone to think I'm against them personally.
Mortepierre
02-03-06, 03:35 AM Players and DMs alike, already have the books with these substitution levels in them.

That's a pretty bold statement considering many DMs have been repeatedly asking if they had to buy the SpC now that it's considered core (and weren't happy about doing it if the answer was "yes")

Wake up call: not everybody who plays D&D buys every accessory out there!
Timlagor
02-03-06, 03:51 AM 1) THey are overpowered
2) DMs don't need to have the books or know the levels -any morpe than they are expected to know all the PrCs

3) NB this thread is being ignored by the Circle.
Swiftbrook
02-03-06, 03:20 PM 1) THey are overpowered
If some are then those should be limited or restricted.

2) DMs don't need to have the books or know the levels -any morpe than they are expected to know all the PrCs
DMs don't have to have the book. If I want to use a Dwarf Fighter subsitution level for my character, it is my responsibility to bring the book to the table. If I don't, the DM is free to no allow any of the changes.

3) NB this thread is being ignored by the Circle.Why? I checked out all the posting guidelines.
(1) I'm within the week
(2) On topic
(3) Brief
(4) Not asking for a book that is not already in play.

-Swiftbrook
jboerj
02-03-06, 03:28 PM I think that as stated, #4 on the suggest rules for discussion, do not specifically state you can't ask about Racial Substitution levels but since that could also arguably fall under character classes, I think it is about 50/50 if the Circle will ignore this thread.

I say discuss it, and hope for the best.
Mattastrophic
02-03-06, 03:58 PM I see arguments for both sides. On one hand, Racial Substitution levels grant more options, which is a good thing. If nothing else, it'll prevent us from utterly dismissing the half-elf as a race (don't respond to that, btw), as well as opening up lots of new options.

On the other hand, we have precedent. Back at Complete Conversion, we couldn't convert into, say, a FavoredSoul15, because the Circle wanted to track the new base classes' effects on the campaign gradually. Thus, the same logic applies. Racial Substitution levels can really shake up a campaign. If you don't believe me, check out Half Elf Bard1. Because those same options make the game more complex on the staff end.

So it's a great idea, but I can see why it could be not implemented.

-Matt
Timlagor
02-06-06, 07:45 AM Racial substitution levels are certainly cool and I'd like ot have them but they are still overpowered (half-elves deserve to be ignored).

This is asking for something that is Restricted to be made Core. doesn't mean you can't discuss it but I thought I'd mention it
Swiftbrook
02-07-06, 07:09 PM For the various reason stated in this thread, please consider adding Racial Substitution Levels to the campaign. They sould probably be in the form of core, limited, npc only and restricted just like spells and feats.

-Swiftbrook

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Swiftbrook 02-02-06, 05:47 PM	Racial Substitution Levels Q: Can I use racial substitution levels as presented in Races of Stone and Races of Destiny? What about ‘variant’ versions of the core classes like paladin and ranger as presented in Complete Warrior? A: No. The LIVING GREYHAWK campaign does not use those rules options.The answer should be Yes. Allow as many racial substitution levels as possible. They're cool, and I don't think they're overpowered. I’ve been told that the reason why quite a few of the stuff isn't included in LG is b/c the sheer amount of info that DM's and players would be required to know and have. The sheer volume of material is always increasing. Players and DMs alike, already have the books with these substitution levels in them. Also, each substitution level has a build in disadvantage for each advantage that it gives. I have found them quite balanced. The flavor that they add to the base classes is well worth the extra effort. -Swiftbrook
JohnduBois 02-02-06, 10:33 PM	Not every sub level has disadvantages. Take Dwarf Fighter 1 (the one I would use instantly if allowed). Hit Die bump, Weapon Focus (all axes). You lose a bonus feat, but what fighter doesn't take Weapon Focus?
haferka 02-03-06, 02:37 AM	I say... make them all limited. And leave it up the the PCs to find access.
Simpi 02-03-06, 02:50 AM	The sheer volume of material is always increasing. Players and DMs alike, already have the books with these substitution levels in them. Also, each substitution level has a build in disadvantage for each advantage that it gives. I have found them quite balanced. The flavor that they add to the base classes is well worth the extra effort. I say no. The more stuff is in LG, the more change there is that some things allows players to build something so broken that people at Character Optimization would be proud of. S.H, the guy from Naerie
redgamer 02-03-06, 03:22 AM	Many of the racial substitution levels are fine but a few gives only benefits and not actually drawbacks wich ruins it for the rest of them. I disagree with Simpi in that I think the more unique characters can be the better. I also think there is enough uniqueness out there that LG shouldn't have to bother with adding a new mechanic like substitution levels. Flavor... I can give any character the same amount of flavor. Rules don't add flavor you playing a character adds flavor. Racial substitution level do make a character more numerically match racial stereotypes. I guess thats almost the same thing as adding flavor. edit: Please don't take the above as sarcastic. It sounded pleasant in my head. I don't want anyone to think I'm against them personally.
Mortepierre 02-03-06, 03:35 AM	Players and DMs alike, already have the books with these substitution levels in them. That's a pretty bold statement considering many DMs have been repeatedly asking if they had to buy the SpC now that it's considered core (and weren't happy about doing it if the answer was "yes") Wake up call: not everybody who plays D&D buys every accessory out there!
Timlagor 02-03-06, 03:51 AM	1) THey are overpowered 2) DMs don't need to have the books or know the levels -any morpe than they are expected to know all the PrCs 3) NB this thread is being ignored by the Circle.
Swiftbrook 02-03-06, 03:20 PM	1) THey are overpowered If some are then those should be limited or restricted. 2) DMs don't need to have the books or know the levels -any morpe than they are expected to know all the PrCs DMs don't have to have the book. If I want to use a Dwarf Fighter subsitution level for my character, it is my responsibility to bring the book to the table. If I don't, the DM is free to no allow any of the changes. 3) NB this thread is being ignored by the Circle.Why? I checked out all the posting guidelines. (1) I'm within the week (2) On topic (3) Brief (4) Not asking for a book that is not already in play. -Swiftbrook
jboerj 02-03-06, 03:28 PM	I think that as stated, #4 on the suggest rules for discussion, do not specifically state you can't ask about Racial Substitution levels but since that could also arguably fall under character classes, I think it is about 50/50 if the Circle will ignore this thread. I say discuss it, and hope for the best.
Mattastrophic 02-03-06, 03:58 PM	I see arguments for both sides. On one hand, Racial Substitution levels grant more options, which is a good thing. If nothing else, it'll prevent us from utterly dismissing the half-elf as a race (don't respond to that, btw), as well as opening up lots of new options. On the other hand, we have precedent. Back at Complete Conversion, we couldn't convert into, say, a FavoredSoul15, because the Circle wanted to track the new base classes' effects on the campaign gradually. Thus, the same logic applies. Racial Substitution levels can really shake up a campaign. If you don't believe me, check out Half Elf Bard1. Because those same options make the game more complex on the staff end. So it's a great idea, but I can see why it could be not implemented. -Matt
Timlagor 02-06-06, 07:45 AM	Racial substitution levels are certainly cool and I'd like ot have them but they are still overpowered (half-elves deserve to be ignored). This is asking for something that is Restricted to be made Core. doesn't mean you can't discuss it but I thought I'd mention it
Swiftbrook 02-07-06, 07:09 PM	For the various reason stated in this thread, please consider adding Racial Substitution Levels to the campaign. They sould probably be in the form of core, limited, npc only and restricted just like spells and feats. -Swiftbrook