Post/Author/DateTime	Post
katrick 05-18-07, 03:40 PM	If you give a Vrock Barb levels can it cast it's Spell like abilities, Extaordinary,Supernatural abilities (at will) whilst raging??? katrick
Rerednaw 05-18-07, 04:52 PM	Um...I'm pretty sure that Vrock do not advance via character class. If it were possible? I think I'd rules as follows. While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. Extraordinary Abilities (Ex): Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are spells and magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See the table below for a summary of the types of special abilities So no to spells/spell-like. Yes to SU or Ex if they do not mention any kind of concentration requirements.
Dr.Cornelius 05-20-07, 07:52 PM	Um...I'm pretty sure that Vrock do not advance via character class.Adding non-associated class levels is a cheese way to make a monster much tougher without upping the ECL much. This is technically correct, but it is essentially an exploit against the rating system which is known to undervalue certain options. Most good authors know that it is not that difficult to design a technically legal encounter which will TPK most average parties. The goal is not to prove that the author can optimize the CR rules but should be to make encounters which will challenge strong parties and provide a satisfying experience.
King Kashue 05-20-07, 09:29 PM	Adding non-associated class levels is a cheese way to make a monster much tougher without upping the ECL much. This is technically correct, but it is essentially an exploit against the rating system which is known to undervalue certain options. However, adding a Barb level to a Vrock is not an non-associated class level. They're specifically melee fighters and "assault troops"...Adding a Barb level is an associated level, and is 1 for 1 on CR.
Madfox11 05-21-07, 09:12 AM	In fact, normally advancing vrocks generates a much more dangerous creature than giving it barbarian levels since somehow adding outsider levels is non-associated ;) [And increasing it a size category only adds +1 CR...]
gomeztoo 05-21-07, 09:44 AM	The first level of barb is actually the most useful, as you also get the elite array. The second level is a lot less useful compared to extra outsider HD... especially if it has spellike abilities that scale with HD. Iow best cheesy advancement is to give it a single level of barb with elite array (+1 CR) and then switch to outsider HD again...
Timlagor 05-21-07, 07:02 PM	Give it Warrior or Cleric (and claim that's non-associated!) and don't change the CR at all ;P
solbergb 05-21-07, 09:50 PM	If you give a Vrock Barb levels can it cast it's Spell like abilities, Extaordinary,Supernatural abilities (at will) whilst raging??? katrick Spell-like - no. Taking away teleport and summoning and refreshing mirror images might make the encounter easier actually. Spores - yes. (rage doesn't really restrict EX abilities near as I can tell and it can't take much concentration to release it if it is a free action) Screech - yes. (it is a SU ability, based on constitution. Not much reason for rage to restrict it.) Dance of Ruin - (it is a SU ability, but to use it you have to dance and chant, which would normally be perform-dance or spellcraft or something similar, ie cha or int based, or perhaps dex based, all ruled out with rage)
Timlagor 05-22-07, 06:52 AM	The dance definitely requries concentration too imo. In any case the "at will" has no bearing on this question. All 'At Will' means is that there is no limit per day/week/month/year/minute to the number of times an ability can be used.
King Kashue 05-22-07, 03:37 PM	The dance definitely requries concentration too imo. It also requires them to be on the ground, which I have seen several DMs screw up. "They're doing the dance 60 feet up in the air" "No, they're not. They have average flying mobility, they can't hover in place, and they can't fly around in a tight circle in three adjacent squares" "Um... They're doing the dance 60 feet up in the air" :headexplo
Samwise 05-23-07, 03:08 AM	It also requires them to be on the ground, which I have seen several DMs screw up. "They're doing the dance 60 feet up in the air" "No, they're not. They have average flying mobility, they can't hover in place, and they can't fly around in a tight circle in three adjacent squares" "Um... They're doing the dance 60 feet up in the air" :headexplo I may be missing something, but why can't they fly in that tight a circle? They are large creatures with a reach of 10 feet. They can turn 45* after moving a square. They have a speed of 50 feet so they must move at least 25 feet. Unless you are taking the minimum forward speed as a minimum in a straight line forward, then they can easily dance up in the air simply by moving through each other, circling a central point. And since they can give up 5 feet of movement for an extra 45* turn in a space, they can actually make an even tighter turn. So why can't they do this?
King Kashue 05-23-07, 03:35 AM	I may be missing something, but why can't they fly in that tight a circle? They are large creatures with a reach of 10 feet. They can turn 45* after moving a square. They have a speed of 50 feet so they must move at least 25 feet. Unless you are taking the minimum forward speed as a minimum in a straight line forward, then they can easily dance up in the air simply by moving through each other, circling a central point. And since they can give up 5 feet of movement for an extra 45* turn in a space, they can actually make an even tighter turn. So why can't they do this? One point is likely the difference. Namely, it's "turn in place", not 'turn in a space'. It's not the ability to spend extra movement to turn more while moving, it's the ability to 'turn in place', i.e., without moving from the square. While moving, they can turn 45 degrees per five feet of movement. And that's what they need to do while maintaining minimum forward speed. It doesn't need to be in a straight line, but the maximum turn they can do while moving is 45 per five feet. For instance, if they move 20, turn 45 at the end of that, spend 5 to turn another 45, then finish off their move with 25 more, that's fine. But 5, then turn 90 (using an extra five), then another five, turn 90 (using an extra 5), then another five, etc. Is not maintaining forward movement, it's moving five feet then 'turning in place' and moving another five, etc. As for what that means for our vultury friends, it means their turns are too wide. Not only 'can' they circle a central point, they must circle a central point. Because there are three different vectors, they must circle a single point in order to all be moving forward. With only 45 degree turns at their disposal, it's not possible...it might not even be possible with your reading, though I'd have to do the plotting on it (I know for certain it isn't with the Vrocks because of a 30 minute long rules conference on it) Now, I'd also have to look at it, but with four or five Vrocks, it definitely could be possible, because you'd be making the circle significantly larger, and thus shallower turns would be possible. My statement is only with three (which I didn't state earlier).
Samwise 05-23-07, 04:04 AM	For instance, if they move 20, turn 45 at the end of that, spend 5 to turn another 45, then finish off their move with 25 more, that's fine. But 5, then turn 90 (using an extra five), then another five, turn 90 (using an extra 5), then another five, etc. Is not maintaining forward movement, it's moving five feet then 'turning in place' and moving another five, etc. As for what that means for our vultury friends, it means their turns are too wide. No it isn't, because they don't have turn in place. The key point is that there is no minimum distance between additional turns, merely that 5 foot move. Therefore: 1. Move 5 feet straight 2. Turn 45* 3. Move 5 feet diagonally 4. Turn 45* 5-8. Repeat 1-4 9-12. Repeat 1-4 13-16. Repeat 1-4 That is 40 feet of movement, and the large creature is in the same place it started the turn. Not only 'can' they circle a central point, they must circle a central point. Because there are three different vectors, they must circle a single point in order to all be moving forward. With only 45 degree turns at their disposal, it's not possible...it might not even be possible with your reading, though I'd have to do the plotting on it (I know for certain it isn't with the Vrocks because of a 30 minute long rules conference on it) Plot what I described above. It is not possible with three medium sized creatures with a 5' reach, but it most certainly is possible with three large sized creatures with a 10' reach like vrocks. Oh, and it won't be a "perfect" circle. Given that you use a square grid, I wouldn't expect that is even theoretically possible, so I'm not even considering that as a requirement. The vrocks dance in a vaguely roundabout manner defined by a square grid, each always remaining within 10' of the other two.
King Kashue 05-23-07, 04:49 AM	I'll look at it again tomorrow. Seriously though, we had a stupid 30 minute conversation on this when it came up (and I was not among those who wanted to discuss it. I was in the "for crap's sake we're going to disrupt it anyway so who cares" camp)...
Samwise 05-23-07, 04:53 AM	(and I was not among those who wanted to discuss it. I was in the "for crap's sake we're going to disrupt it anyway so who cares" camp)... :rofl: Yeah, as DM that's what I'd default to as well. "Casting" a "spell" with a three round "casting time" in the middle of combat is just asking to get abused. Just whack one of the danged things and get it over with.
copper_wyrmling 05-23-07, 11:44 AM	:rofl: Yeah, as DM that's what I'd default to as well. "Casting" a "spell" with a three round "casting time" in the middle of combat is just asking to get abused. Just whack one of the danged things and get it over with. Well, you have to do more than hit them, you need to stop them from dancing - grapple, stun, knocking one of them out, etc. It's still usually pretty easy when there's only one circle, but it can become non-trivial when you have enough vrocks that they can form multiple circles and still have some left over to hold back the PCs. (Sixteen vrocks is an EL 17 encounter, although I think when we fought a flight of vrocks at APL 14, they were advanced and there were only 10-12 of them. That's still quite a lot of stunning screeches and CL 12 Telekinesis spells...)
Timlagor 05-23-07, 03:14 PM	One Solid Fog and they all stop :D Every bit of damage will force a Concentration Check as well so you don't need to get fancy with your combat.
copper_wyrmling 05-23-07, 04:08 PM	One Solid Fog and they all stop :D Every bit of damage will force a Concentration Check as well so you don't need to get fancy with your combat. Why would it force a Concentration check? They don't need to do skill rolls, and it's supernatural not spell-like. Actually in the case of our vrock flight most of the circles got Confused by our grey elf wizard, which was hilarious. Solid Fog should probably work as well - but this is more or less why I get very twitchy about playing the top APLs with no arcane ;)
solbergb 05-23-07, 05:49 PM	on a related note, my monk used his brand new cloak of the arachnid recently to lock down a nasty melee monster that had a whole lot of attacks in its full attack (natural weapons, multiple manufactured weapons) with its little "web 1/day" power. My intention was to just slow it one round while the party got set up. After the fight was over, (it never got to move freely from it, since somebody in the party moved up and sucked down the full attack later...) we discovered that it had a dervish level, and would have scooted right by the tank tumbled through my reach and hit me with every single attack, cutting me into little tiny chunks (although probably delay-deathed chunks). Mobility is important...and you never know when that monster is gonna get pounce or dervish dance or something. Yeah. Solid fog = good :) My only character that has actually battled vrocks doing dance of ruin is my monk, and at the time they were as good at grappling as he was, and much more dangerous to hm if they got mad and full attacked so he had to work hard at it to make the dance fail. Had he his new toy, it was an enclosed area and he could have webbed them up....
Madfox11 05-24-07, 04:26 AM	Of course, sometimes DMs do silly things that are correct by the RAW (or at least not worth that 30 minutes of discussion). The last time I came across vrocks as a player, they summoned dozens of dretches who all started by casting stinking cloud and the DM had us throw a save for each overlapping spell we were in. Besides the fact that it allowed the vrocks to fly out of sight until one of us could fly, it also disabled the one and only PC able to cast fly. I was just glad most PCs could run out of the area of that dance of ruin ability...