Rapid Shot and Manyshot [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rapid Shot and Manyshot [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tengu
07-24-07, 06:49 AM I am confused as to how the feats Rapid Shot and Manyshot work together if you have both? As I read it, you can either take a full round action and get two attacks with Rapid Shot at -2 to hit on both OR you can take a move action and then use Manyshot to get one attack with two arrows thus it is one die roll with a – 4 penalty.

Is it possible to take a full round action and somehow use both feats? Like get two attacks with the Rapid Shot feat each with 2 arrows for the Manyshot feat but now with a total of -6 penalty on each of the two attacks?
CrystalBlue
07-24-07, 08:02 AM No. Because Rapid Shot requires a full attack, you can't add Many Shot to it. That would be broken as hell.

Pros of Rapid Shot: One more attack for a -2 penalty to everything (and at higher levels your archer should be hitting every time, so this is a plus)
Cons of Rapid Shot: You do need a full attack to make use of it.

Pros of Multi Shot: Take only a standard action to fire off another arrow at -4 (again, your archer should be hitting all the time anyways, so this isn't a problem. Besides, have two Alchemist Arrows and double up on the damage)
Cons of Multi Shot: Can only be used as a standard action.

Multi shot is great for scouts and rogues because they can still sneak-attack/skirmish with one arrow and get to add on some extra arrow damage. But if you're a pure ranger or archer build, you'll be looking at Rapid Shot as your main-stay because of the sheer volume of damage you'll be doing. Look at a +1 Shocking Frost Longbow. 1d8 arrow damage + 1d6 shock damage + 1d6 frost damage + 1 + strength. That's an average of 13 points of damage per arrow. And with the potential of 3 arrows around 8th level, plus haste, that's 4 arrows. That's at least 52 points of damage with all your arrows. Add in an alchemist arrow on each and you're pushing 64. And that's average. You're doing, on average, more damage then a melee fighter. It's just that you won't be getting the high hits and frequent criticals as a power attacking Great Sword would. But you can be 100+ feet away. Enjoy. ^.^
kenobi65
07-24-07, 12:00 PM Just to expound on CrystalBlue's nice answer:

You can't combine the two feats, because:
(a) using Rapid Shot requires you to use the Full Attack action, and
(b) using Manyshot is a Standard action (*not* an attack action)

Don't worry too much...this is one of the most common points of confusion I've seen in 3.5.
Tengu
07-24-07, 12:08 PM Thanks for the reply. From your response, have a few more questions:

1. Where can I read about Alchemist Arrows? I use Dragonsbreath Arrows a lot but I have not found Alchemist Arrows?

2. I like the idea of shock and frost but I don't have access to them. What do you think of a Holy Bow.

3. What do you think of using the snipe and hide tactic (player’s handbook pg 76)? With it allowing only a single shot it seems Manyshot is good with it. But, because it is a -20 to re-hide, this seems only really useful at higher levels.

3A. Given question 3 above, and archery builds in general, what do you think of the Woodland Archery feat in RoW?

Thanks,
CrystalBlue
07-25-07, 08:19 AM 1.) I've seen access for them in many Highfolk mods, as well as Highfolk meta-orgs. I don't remember Dragonbreath ones, however, an Alchemist Arrow should be in Arms and Equipment. They cost a pretty penny, but add 1d6 points of fire damage to each shot.

2.) Getting access to weapon enchancements seems to be the bane of all archers. Holy is nice, but it's selective about who it hurts. If you're hitting all evil creatures, great. But when you look at it big-picture wise, you've got animals, magical beasts, constructs, oozes, and 4 other books worth of enemies that might not be evil. Get a holy bow if you can, but I would still keep hoping for shock and frost.

3.) Snipe and hide is an ok tactic, but usually only works if YOU'RE the one ambushing people. And, based on the track-record of mods I've seen and played, you'll be the one ambushed 9/10 of the time. Don't rely on it unless you have a high hide check (I'm talking about Hide in Plain Sight and a hide check of +30).

3A) Never read that feat. Is that the one that allows you to fire from behind tree cover with no penalty? I can't remember. :P
copper_wyrmling
07-25-07, 09:19 AM 2.) Getting access to weapon enchancements seems to be the bane of all archers. Holy is nice, but it's selective about who it hurts. If you're hitting all evil creatures, great. But when you look at it big-picture wise, you've got animals, magical beasts, constructs, oozes, and 4 other books worth of enemies that might not be evil. Get a holy bow if you can, but I would still keep hoping for shock and frost.

Heh. It does depend on what you usually fight. I would always grab Holy before Shock and Frost... but maybe that's a consequence of playing for several years in a region where most of the enemies are demons (resistance 10 or immunity to all energy types, often have DR / good, always evil). In that environment, Shock and Frost are almost completely useless, whereas access to Holy or Sacred is an archer's dream (especially since you can't put oil of bless weapon on bows). In Cores, I would think Holy is one of the best weapon enhancements for its price (albeit not to the same degree it is in Perrenland), but its value in regionals and metaregionals may vary a lot.

3.) Snipe and hide is an ok tactic, but usually only works if YOU'RE the one ambushing people. And, based on the track-record of mods I've seen and played, you'll be the one ambushed 9/10 of the time. Don't rely on it unless you have a high hide check (I'm talking about Hide in Plain Sight and a hide check of +30).

Also, as CrystalBlue said in his first post, you normally do a lot more damage just by full attacking.

I really like Woodland Archer, but more for Adjust For Range (bonuses to hit if you miss on your earlier arrows) and Pierce the Foliage (ignore concealment miss chance after landing one attack), rather than Moving Sniper.

Btw, I'm always a bit surprised when people say their archers never miss - how? Are the attack bonuses really that insane (my dervish keeps missing APL 10 monsters, with +26 to hit before buffs), or am I reading too much into "never miss"? Do you just mean that against normal opponents, on average you expect all or all but one of the attacks to connect? (This is about what I've seen from a local archer.) Just wondering ;)
CrystalBlue
07-25-07, 12:52 PM My archer, at level 9, rapid shots at +14/+14/+9. Then I add in any buffs, which can usually put me at +17/+17/+17/+12. And I'd like to know how a BAB of +10 gets you a +26 to hit before buffs. That sounds EXTREAMLY suspicious to me.

When you look at a typical EL+2 fight, with an average of a 24 AC, I'm hitting on 7-10 and above, depending on buffs. That's a little more then 50% of the time. And if I'm shooting off 3 arrows, law of averages say that I'm going to hit at least 1.5 - 2 times every round. More with better luck. So when I say I hit, I mean at least once or twice, not the full attack. I have yet to have one of my full attacks land everything. ^.^;;

((PS: I play in the wonder of Highfolk, where we don't get demons...we usually get things that are size huge and have no AC. So hitting isn't the problem. Getting hit is a BIG problem. Going down to -7 from 63 HP hurts and makes me frown. Like this. :( )
clannagh
07-25-07, 07:15 PM My archer, at level 9, rapid shots at +14/+14/+9. Then I add in any buffs, which can usually put me at +17/+17/+17/+12. And I'd like to know how a BAB of +10 gets you a +26 to hit before buffs. That sounds EXTREAMLY suspicious to me.

My archer at Level 9 can shoot at +19 before buffs

22 Dex (natural .. no bracers) +6
BAB 8 (lost one BAB to a rogue level) +8
lesser archery bracers +1
WF longbow +1
+1 longbow +1
point blank +1
elevated position (feat) +1

wearing dex +4 bracers (she has the money) would make that +21 if her BAB was +10 she would be sitting on +23

so I do not see +26 being that outragous
copper_wyrmling
07-26-07, 07:27 AM Ahhh, by "hitting every time" you mean "hitting at least once (and usually more) on every full attack". Right, that agrees better with my experience ;)

My archer, at level 9, rapid shots at +14/+14/+9. Then I add in any buffs, which can usually put me at +17/+17/+17/+12. And I'd like to know how a BAB of +10 gets you a +26 to hit before buffs. That sounds EXTREAMLY suspicious to me.

Remember, I did say this was a dervish, not an archer - I only mentioned him as a yardstick for attack bonus, since I keep missing stuff even when he's attacking at +26, and I was curious about what you meant by a high enough attack bonus that "your archer should be hitting every time" ;) Here's how I get to +26 though:

BAB +10
Str +6
Weapon focus +1
Magic weapon +1
Dervish dance +3*
Acrobatic strike +4**
Haste (boots of speed) +1***
Total = +26

* He has five levels of dervish so can dance 3/day for 6 rounds each time. This is almost always enough to cover every combat in LG scenarios.
** This only applies if I've successfully tumbled past the opponent, but the PC has a +18 tumble check and can take 10 in combat, so getting this bonus is not usually very difficult.
*** This is limited duration, but 10 rounds / day is usually enough.

He's a melee power-attacker - attack bonus for him can be translated directly into damage, so he always wants more bonuses to hit. I imagine your archer's focused more on boosting his damage per arrow (and I would probably do the same in his case) - it's just a matter of emphasis.
CrystalBlue
07-26-07, 07:47 AM So without buffs and abilities, you're at a 10+6+1+1, which is a +18. That is hugely more reasonable.

When you say without buffs, I assume personal buffs as well. The dance, acrobatic strike, and haste are all 'buffs'. Now I feel better. :P
copper_wyrmling
07-26-07, 08:10 AM So without buffs and abilities, you're at a 10+6+1+1, which is a +18. That is hugely more reasonable.

When you say without buffs, I assume personal buffs as well. The dance, acrobatic strike, and haste are all 'buffs'. Now I feel better. :P

A good chunk of the bonuses aren't from the usual suspects, instead coming from PrC abilities and feats that not many characters use, so I can understand why you were a bit suspicious initially. I think we have a different understanding of the word "buffs" though ;)

When I say "buffs" I normally mean stuff that is not always up in combat (in this case, since I was using the PC as a yardstick for "high attack bonus that still regularly misses", there wouldn't be much point in including bonuses that are only rarely in effect) - maybe it requires an action to activate (and you don't always have that action to spare - even swift actions sometimes get used for other things), maybe it requires another PC's help (and you don't always play with them), maybe it's a once/day ability, maybe it takes resources that sometimes go into other things (like hours/level spells - sometimes you need the slot for something else). Once you have three dervish dances / day, dervish dance doesn't really fall into this category (same way most barbarian builds with extra rage list their "unbuffed strength" including their rage modifier), and acrobatic strike isn't in it any more than, say, shocktrooper, or sneak attack damage. The boots of speed are iffy, but I don't tend to think of them as "buffs" because in the LG environment, they're essentially continuous items - you can pretty much always have them on in combat, and they take no action (not even a swift action) to activate.
Frumpkis
07-26-07, 07:16 PM Btw, I'm always a bit surprised when people say their archers never miss - how? Are the attack bonuses really that insane (my dervish keeps missing APL 10 monsters, with +26 to hit before buffs), or am I reading too much into "never miss"? Do you just mean that against normal opponents, on average you expect all or all but one of the attacks to connect? (This is about what I've seen from a local archer.) Just wondering ;)

I think part of the reasoning here is also that archers are pretty much always (aside from the -2 from Rapid Shot) attacking at their "full" attack bonus. By this, I mean that melee characters have the option of decreasing their attack bonus through Power Attack or Combat Expertise, which lowers their probability of hitting. Archers don't have these options, so their chances of hitting will be higher than the typical melee guy.

Plus, the penalty from Rapid Shot isn't that bad, statistically speaking. You take a -2 to all your attacks, but in return, you get an extra chance to hit your opponent at your highest BAB. Not to mention that Improved Rapid Shot removed the -2 penalty altogether.
clannagh
07-26-07, 07:25 PM I think part of the reasoning here is also that archers are pretty much always (aside from the -2 from Rapid Shot) attacking at their "full" attack bonus. By this, I mean that melee characters have the option of decreasing their attack bonus through Power Attack or Combat Expertise, which lowers their probability of hitting. Archers don't have these options, so their chances of hitting will be higher than the typical melee guy.

Plus, the penalty from Rapid Shot isn't that bad, statistically speaking. You take a -2 to all your attacks, but in return, you get an extra chance to hit your opponent at your highest BAB. Not to mention that Improved Rapid Shot removed the -2 penalty altogether.

Nevertheless my archer hitting on +17 rapid shot has regularly found herself needing to roll 15 or more to hit at APL 10.

At 18,18,18,13 hasted she usually gets a hit a round which apparently is what was meant be "Never miss" rather than "only miss on a 1" which is what a few of us assumed was meant.
Timlagor
07-29-07, 03:32 PM Hmm level 10:
Dex: +4 (inc +2 gloves)
BAB: +10
Haste: +1
WF: +1
Bow: +1 (unless GMW)
GWF: +1
RWM: +2
Rapid Shot: -2

So I'm heading for about the 18 mark at level 10 too. I'd hope to hit more than once per round though. Woodland Archer (excellent Feat) might help with that or I might have Improved Rapid at that point (can't remember).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tengu 07-24-07, 06:49 AM	I am confused as to how the feats Rapid Shot and Manyshot work together if you have both? As I read it, you can either take a full round action and get two attacks with Rapid Shot at -2 to hit on both OR you can take a move action and then use Manyshot to get one attack with two arrows thus it is one die roll with a – 4 penalty. Is it possible to take a full round action and somehow use both feats? Like get two attacks with the Rapid Shot feat each with 2 arrows for the Manyshot feat but now with a total of -6 penalty on each of the two attacks?
CrystalBlue 07-24-07, 08:02 AM	No. Because Rapid Shot requires a full attack, you can't add Many Shot to it. That would be broken as hell. Pros of Rapid Shot: One more attack for a -2 penalty to everything (and at higher levels your archer should be hitting every time, so this is a plus) Cons of Rapid Shot: You do need a full attack to make use of it. Pros of Multi Shot: Take only a standard action to fire off another arrow at -4 (again, your archer should be hitting all the time anyways, so this isn't a problem. Besides, have two Alchemist Arrows and double up on the damage) Cons of Multi Shot: Can only be used as a standard action. Multi shot is great for scouts and rogues because they can still sneak-attack/skirmish with one arrow and get to add on some extra arrow damage. But if you're a pure ranger or archer build, you'll be looking at Rapid Shot as your main-stay because of the sheer volume of damage you'll be doing. Look at a +1 Shocking Frost Longbow. 1d8 arrow damage + 1d6 shock damage + 1d6 frost damage + 1 + strength. That's an average of 13 points of damage per arrow. And with the potential of 3 arrows around 8th level, plus haste, that's 4 arrows. That's at least 52 points of damage with all your arrows. Add in an alchemist arrow on each and you're pushing 64. And that's average. You're doing, on average, more damage then a melee fighter. It's just that you won't be getting the high hits and frequent criticals as a power attacking Great Sword would. But you can be 100+ feet away. Enjoy. ^.^
kenobi65 07-24-07, 12:00 PM	Just to expound on CrystalBlue's nice answer: You can't combine the two feats, because: (a) using Rapid Shot requires you to use the Full Attack action, and (b) using Manyshot is a Standard action (not an attack action) Don't worry too much...this is one of the most common points of confusion I've seen in 3.5.
Tengu 07-24-07, 12:08 PM	Thanks for the reply. From your response, have a few more questions: 1. Where can I read about Alchemist Arrows? I use Dragonsbreath Arrows a lot but I have not found Alchemist Arrows? 2. I like the idea of shock and frost but I don't have access to them. What do you think of a Holy Bow. 3. What do you think of using the snipe and hide tactic (player’s handbook pg 76)? With it allowing only a single shot it seems Manyshot is good with it. But, because it is a -20 to re-hide, this seems only really useful at higher levels. 3A. Given question 3 above, and archery builds in general, what do you think of the Woodland Archery feat in RoW? Thanks,
CrystalBlue 07-25-07, 08:19 AM	1.) I've seen access for them in many Highfolk mods, as well as Highfolk meta-orgs. I don't remember Dragonbreath ones, however, an Alchemist Arrow should be in Arms and Equipment. They cost a pretty penny, but add 1d6 points of fire damage to each shot. 2.) Getting access to weapon enchancements seems to be the bane of all archers. Holy is nice, but it's selective about who it hurts. If you're hitting all evil creatures, great. But when you look at it big-picture wise, you've got animals, magical beasts, constructs, oozes, and 4 other books worth of enemies that might not be evil. Get a holy bow if you can, but I would still keep hoping for shock and frost. 3.) Snipe and hide is an ok tactic, but usually only works if YOU'RE the one ambushing people. And, based on the track-record of mods I've seen and played, you'll be the one ambushed 9/10 of the time. Don't rely on it unless you have a high hide check (I'm talking about Hide in Plain Sight and a hide check of +30). 3A) Never read that feat. Is that the one that allows you to fire from behind tree cover with no penalty? I can't remember. :P
copper_wyrmling 07-25-07, 09:19 AM	2.) Getting access to weapon enchancements seems to be the bane of all archers. Holy is nice, but it's selective about who it hurts. If you're hitting all evil creatures, great. But when you look at it big-picture wise, you've got animals, magical beasts, constructs, oozes, and 4 other books worth of enemies that might not be evil. Get a holy bow if you can, but I would still keep hoping for shock and frost. Heh. It does depend on what you usually fight. I would always grab Holy before Shock and Frost... but maybe that's a consequence of playing for several years in a region where most of the enemies are demons (resistance 10 or immunity to all energy types, often have DR / good, always evil). In that environment, Shock and Frost are almost completely useless, whereas access to Holy or Sacred is an archer's dream (especially since you can't put oil of bless weapon on bows). In Cores, I would think Holy is one of the best weapon enhancements for its price (albeit not to the same degree it is in Perrenland), but its value in regionals and metaregionals may vary a lot. 3.) Snipe and hide is an ok tactic, but usually only works if YOU'RE the one ambushing people. And, based on the track-record of mods I've seen and played, you'll be the one ambushed 9/10 of the time. Don't rely on it unless you have a high hide check (I'm talking about Hide in Plain Sight and a hide check of +30). Also, as CrystalBlue said in his first post, you normally do a lot more damage just by full attacking. I really like Woodland Archer, but more for Adjust For Range (bonuses to hit if you miss on your earlier arrows) and Pierce the Foliage (ignore concealment miss chance after landing one attack), rather than Moving Sniper. Btw, I'm always a bit surprised when people say their archers never miss - how? Are the attack bonuses really that insane (my dervish keeps missing APL 10 monsters, with +26 to hit before buffs), or am I reading too much into "never miss"? Do you just mean that against normal opponents, on average you expect all or all but one of the attacks to connect? (This is about what I've seen from a local archer.) Just wondering ;)
CrystalBlue 07-25-07, 12:52 PM	My archer, at level 9, rapid shots at +14/+14/+9. Then I add in any buffs, which can usually put me at +17/+17/+17/+12. And I'd like to know how a BAB of +10 gets you a +26 to hit before buffs. That sounds EXTREAMLY suspicious to me. When you look at a typical EL+2 fight, with an average of a 24 AC, I'm hitting on 7-10 and above, depending on buffs. That's a little more then 50% of the time. And if I'm shooting off 3 arrows, law of averages say that I'm going to hit at least 1.5 - 2 times every round. More with better luck. So when I say I hit, I mean at least once or twice, not the full attack. I have yet to have one of my full attacks land everything. ^.^;; ((PS: I play in the wonder of Highfolk, where we don't get demons...we usually get things that are size huge and have no AC. So hitting isn't the problem. Getting hit is a BIG problem. Going down to -7 from 63 HP hurts and makes me frown. Like this. :( )
clannagh 07-25-07, 07:15 PM	My archer, at level 9, rapid shots at +14/+14/+9. Then I add in any buffs, which can usually put me at +17/+17/+17/+12. And I'd like to know how a BAB of +10 gets you a +26 to hit before buffs. That sounds EXTREAMLY suspicious to me. My archer at Level 9 can shoot at +19 before buffs 22 Dex (natural .. no bracers) +6 BAB 8 (lost one BAB to a rogue level) +8 lesser archery bracers +1 WF longbow +1 +1 longbow +1 point blank +1 elevated position (feat) +1 wearing dex +4 bracers (she has the money) would make that +21 if her BAB was +10 she would be sitting on +23 so I do not see +26 being that outragous
copper_wyrmling 07-26-07, 07:27 AM	Ahhh, by "hitting every time" you mean "hitting at least once (and usually more) on every full attack". Right, that agrees better with my experience ;) My archer, at level 9, rapid shots at +14/+14/+9. Then I add in any buffs, which can usually put me at +17/+17/+17/+12. And I'd like to know how a BAB of +10 gets you a +26 to hit before buffs. That sounds EXTREAMLY suspicious to me. Remember, I did say this was a dervish, not an archer - I only mentioned him as a yardstick for attack bonus, since I keep missing stuff even when he's attacking at +26, and I was curious about what you meant by a high enough attack bonus that "your archer should be hitting every time" ;) Here's how I get to +26 though: BAB +10 Str +6 Weapon focus +1 Magic weapon +1 Dervish dance +3* Acrobatic strike +4 Haste (boots of speed) +1* Total = +26 * He has five levels of dervish so can dance 3/day for 6 rounds each time. This is almost always enough to cover every combat in LG scenarios. This only applies if I've successfully tumbled past the opponent, but the PC has a +18 tumble check and can take 10 in combat, so getting this bonus is not usually very difficult. * This is limited duration, but 10 rounds / day is usually enough. He's a melee power-attacker - attack bonus for him can be translated directly into damage, so he always wants more bonuses to hit. I imagine your archer's focused more on boosting his damage per arrow (and I would probably do the same in his case) - it's just a matter of emphasis.
CrystalBlue 07-26-07, 07:47 AM	So without buffs and abilities, you're at a 10+6+1+1, which is a +18. That is hugely more reasonable. When you say without buffs, I assume personal buffs as well. The dance, acrobatic strike, and haste are all 'buffs'. Now I feel better. :P
copper_wyrmling 07-26-07, 08:10 AM	So without buffs and abilities, you're at a 10+6+1+1, which is a +18. That is hugely more reasonable. When you say without buffs, I assume personal buffs as well. The dance, acrobatic strike, and haste are all 'buffs'. Now I feel better. :P A good chunk of the bonuses aren't from the usual suspects, instead coming from PrC abilities and feats that not many characters use, so I can understand why you were a bit suspicious initially. I think we have a different understanding of the word "buffs" though ;) When I say "buffs" I normally mean stuff that is not always up in combat (in this case, since I was using the PC as a yardstick for "high attack bonus that still regularly misses", there wouldn't be much point in including bonuses that are only rarely in effect) - maybe it requires an action to activate (and you don't always have that action to spare - even swift actions sometimes get used for other things), maybe it requires another PC's help (and you don't always play with them), maybe it's a once/day ability, maybe it takes resources that sometimes go into other things (like hours/level spells - sometimes you need the slot for something else). Once you have three dervish dances / day, dervish dance doesn't really fall into this category (same way most barbarian builds with extra rage list their "unbuffed strength" including their rage modifier), and acrobatic strike isn't in it any more than, say, shocktrooper, or sneak attack damage. The boots of speed are iffy, but I don't tend to think of them as "buffs" because in the LG environment, they're essentially continuous items - you can pretty much always have them on in combat, and they take no action (not even a swift action) to activate.
Frumpkis 07-26-07, 07:16 PM	Btw, I'm always a bit surprised when people say their archers never miss - how? Are the attack bonuses really that insane (my dervish keeps missing APL 10 monsters, with +26 to hit before buffs), or am I reading too much into "never miss"? Do you just mean that against normal opponents, on average you expect all or all but one of the attacks to connect? (This is about what I've seen from a local archer.) Just wondering ;) I think part of the reasoning here is also that archers are pretty much always (aside from the -2 from Rapid Shot) attacking at their "full" attack bonus. By this, I mean that melee characters have the option of decreasing their attack bonus through Power Attack or Combat Expertise, which lowers their probability of hitting. Archers don't have these options, so their chances of hitting will be higher than the typical melee guy. Plus, the penalty from Rapid Shot isn't that bad, statistically speaking. You take a -2 to all your attacks, but in return, you get an extra chance to hit your opponent at your highest BAB. Not to mention that Improved Rapid Shot removed the -2 penalty altogether.
clannagh 07-26-07, 07:25 PM	I think part of the reasoning here is also that archers are pretty much always (aside from the -2 from Rapid Shot) attacking at their "full" attack bonus. By this, I mean that melee characters have the option of decreasing their attack bonus through Power Attack or Combat Expertise, which lowers their probability of hitting. Archers don't have these options, so their chances of hitting will be higher than the typical melee guy. Plus, the penalty from Rapid Shot isn't that bad, statistically speaking. You take a -2 to all your attacks, but in return, you get an extra chance to hit your opponent at your highest BAB. Not to mention that Improved Rapid Shot removed the -2 penalty altogether. Nevertheless my archer hitting on +17 rapid shot has regularly found herself needing to roll 15 or more to hit at APL 10. At 18,18,18,13 hasted she usually gets a hit a round which apparently is what was meant be "Never miss" rather than "only miss on a 1" which is what a few of us assumed was meant.
Timlagor 07-29-07, 03:32 PM	Hmm level 10: Dex: +4 (inc +2 gloves) BAB: +10 Haste: +1 WF: +1 Bow: +1 (unless GMW) GWF: +1 RWM: +2 Rapid Shot: -2 So I'm heading for about the 18 mark at level 10 too. I'd hope to hit more than once per round though. Woodland Archer (excellent Feat) might help with that or I might have Improved Rapid at that point (can't remember).