reach weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

reach weapons [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KYOGOTH
07-24-07, 07:51 PM i have never used a reach weapon before.how does combat enfold with one?
reading the ph i get the impression that i will be constantly backpedalling as my opponent takes his 5foot step to get inside my reach(AoA?)thereby becoming adjacent to me rendering my weapon useless,and me 5foot stepping back to hit him/her/it!
or am i supposed to bullrush them back 5feet?
i had imagined a reach weapon could keep an opponent at bay.
the rules on this leave me confused.
lseelba
07-24-07, 08:02 PM i have never used a reach weapon before.how does combat enfold with one?
reading the ph i get the impression that i will be constantly backpedalling as my opponent takes his 5foot step to get inside my reach(AoA?)thereby becoming adjacent to me rendering my weapon useless,and me 5foot stepping back to hit him/her/it!
or am i supposed to bullrush them back 5feet?
i had imagined a reach weapon could keep an opponent at bay.
the rules on this leave me confused.

Here is how it usually plays out with reach weapons that can't be used adjacent:

1) You charge in (or move in) and hit the opponent from 5' away.
2) The opponent 5' steps forward and makes a full attack.
3) You 5' step back and make a full attack.
4) If at any time an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity while within 5' of you, you smack them with your armor spikes.
5) See step 2

Here is an excellent tactic that will usually be much better:
1) You ready an attack for when your opponent is within reach (readying against a charge is also good to do)
2) Your opponent charges in, giving you TWO attacks (first your readied attack, then your attack of opportunity)
3) You then 5' back and make a full attack, opponent follows, etc.

Here is a vastly superior tactic:
1) You get enlarged by some way or another
2) You smack the opponents around at the edge of your 20' reach
3) They can't 5' step to attack you, so they have to move in, provoking attacks of opportunity

-Lou
KYOGOTH
07-24-07, 08:11 PM thanks iseelba
clannagh
07-25-07, 01:06 AM a good trick with a reach opponent is to back them up against a wall

then they need to move sideways 10' to hit you
Jay_Ibero_911
07-25-07, 01:23 AM Reach weapons are also handy for dealing with enemies that have reach as well. Helps you avoid unnecessary AOO's. Also handy for bottleneck areas only 5ft wide, so main melee guy is in the front, with you right behind him with your reach weapon. Sure the bad guys have cover, but at least it's threatening them with one more attack then otherwise.
Ralis
07-25-07, 11:05 AM My main character uses a glaive as his primary weapon. And depending on your build, what Iseeble told you is pretty accurate as to how things unfold. But (at least in my area) there is usually another melee type character on the table, without a reach weapon who will be toe to toe with the monster and draw the bulk of his attention.

Another handy trick is the Knights Bulwark of Defence ability with a reach weapon. Bulwark makes the squares you threaten difficult terrain, so they can't take a free five foot step without provoking an AoO.
bitznarf
07-25-07, 11:18 AM Another handy trick is the Knights Bulwark of Defence ability with a reach weapon. Bulwark makes the squares you threaten difficult terrain, so they can't take a free five foot step without provoking an AoO.
Just a note to those who may not be aware. The Bulwark of Defence only affects enemies if they *start* their turn in your threatened area. If they have something like Spring Attack/Flyby Attack/Ride-by Attack they can remain virtually immune to the ability.
control freak
07-25-07, 11:50 AM or you can enlarge yourself with a spiked chain and have cbt reflexes :D

spiked chains are the best reach whepons simply because they have no penaltys and (if you do it right) can FORCE AoAs useing the knights ablity with something like this

kinght 1: EWP spiked chain, combat reflexes (with at least a 14 dex)
knight 2:
knight 3: bulwark, (power attack or cbt expertise)
cleric 1: (strength+ some domain and get a PoP1 or 2 so you can be enlarged all day)
cleric 2:
cleric 3: imp trip/ CWI
then go into a PrC or anything as long as you get full BAB save the 1 level of cleric
Howie23
07-25-07, 11:54 AM cleric 1: (strength+ some domain and get a PoP1 or 2 so you can be enlarged all day)

Enlarge Person, at minutes per caster level, plus a PoP or two equals enlarged all day?
control freak
07-25-07, 12:59 PM Enlarge Person, at minutes per caster level, plus a PoP or two equals enlarged all day?

1 enlarge person+ 2 PoP1= 3 enlarges per day to deal with those 3 encounters/day :D

:incog: :emp: that may be minor meta gameing but it is also common knowlage that theres tipicaly 3 encounters/mod (hence why Extra rage so good you rage all day)
bitznarf
07-25-07, 01:10 PM Enlarge Person has a 1 round casting time, a major downside in my opinion. I think you'd be better off using a wand and eating the (minor) extra cost.
Howie23
07-25-07, 01:35 PM Enlarge Person has a 1 round casting time, a major downside in my opinion. I think you'd be better off using a wand and eating the (minor) extra cost.

It takes 1 round from a wand, too.
King Kashue
07-25-07, 01:38 PM Enlarge Person has a 1 round casting time, a major downside in my opinion. I think you'd be better off using a wand and eating the (minor) extra cost.

Wands of Enlarge take onel round as well. (This is a common mistake)

Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a long casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand).

Edit: Damn, beat me too it...That's what I get for giving the rules reference...I guess Howie is okay with not being thorough ;)
Some_call_me_Tim
07-25-07, 02:41 PM 1 enlarge person+ 2 PoP1= 3 enlarges per day to deal with those 3 encounters/day :D

:incog: :emp: that may be minor meta gameing but it is also common knowlage that theres tipicaly 3 encounters/mod (hence why Extra rage so good you rage all day)Who needs three/day? I've seen way too many modules with one encounter/day for three days. As you say, it's common knowledge there are almost always three combat encounters per module, generally at EL=APL+2. It makes those once/day abilities all that much more powerful.

To keep this somewhat on topic. Make sure you carry a back-up weapon for when you can't back-pedal.

My favorite reach weapon is the ranseur. You get +2 to disarm and since it is reach weapon you likely won't be threatened when you make the attempt. The guisarme is nice if you like to trip. Plus neither have the stigma of the spiked chain attached.
Samwise
07-25-07, 02:43 PM Or find access to greater enlarge person. :D
bitznarf
07-25-07, 04:31 PM It takes 1 round from a wand, too.
Huh, so it does. Somehow I thought spell trigger items only took a standard action. Oops.
Howie23
07-25-07, 05:41 PM Edit: Damn, beat me too it...That's what I get for giving the rules reference...I guess Howie is okay with not being thorough ;)

Oh, you know me, slovenly and undisciplined... :)

David
Nutation
07-25-07, 06:50 PM Enlarge Person has a 1 round casting time, a major downside in my opinion. I think you'd be better off using a wand and eating the (minor) extra cost.

It's the potion of Enlarge Person that is a standard action (with a not-so-minor cost).
clannagh
07-25-07, 10:05 PM It's the potion of Enlarge Person that is a standard action (with a not-so-minor cost).

As some compensation to the cost .. it is priced at CL5 which gives you a 5 minute enlarge. in some cases (viz. a dungeon crawl) that may last through several encounters.
ShinAkuma2
07-25-07, 10:19 PM As some compensation to the cost .. it is priced at CL5 which gives you a 5 minute enlarge. in some cases (viz. a dungeon crawl) that may last through several encounters.

That's a fine and dandy interpretation, but since that's not actually stated anywhere, it's not true in the realm of an LG game.

It's just more expensive because it's more powerful.
Drezden
07-25-07, 10:27 PM But where does it say that the potion is NOT 5 mins (or that it is just 1 minute)? The potion is priced as a caster level 5 potion; I think the duration should be 5 minutes. Unless I am missing something (don't have access to any books or docs right now), I think the duration is ambiguous. For the most part, it usually won't even matter, as most fights are over within 10 rounds.

Daren

That's a fine and dandy interpretation, but since that's not actually stated anywhere, it's not true in the realm of an LG game.

It's just more expensive because it's more powerful.
clannagh
07-25-07, 10:53 PM That's a fine and dandy interpretation, but since that's not actually stated anywhere, it's not true in the realm of an LG game.

It's just more expensive because it's more powerful.

Bear in mind that historically the price was brought forward unchanged from the 3.0 version which for technical reasons (the spell was different) actually had to be a CL5 potion.
JamesMaissen
07-26-07, 12:28 AM That's a fine and dandy interpretation, but since that's not actually stated anywhere, it's not true in the realm of an LG game.

It's just more expensive because it's more powerful.

Sure it is.. the PhB gives the formula for potions (as does the DMG I believe). Enlarge Person is a 1st level wizard/sorcerer spell, so by those formulas it would cost 50gp per caster level. Priced at 250gp that makes it 5th level.

-James
Jay_Ibero_911
07-26-07, 12:58 AM Sure it is.. the PhB gives the formula for potions (as does the DMG I believe). Enlarge Person is a 1st level wizard/sorcerer spell, so by those formulas it would cost 50gp per caster level. Priced at 250gp that makes it 5th level.

-James

Yes, but it also states that all potions are at minimum caster level unless specifically stated otherwise. The potions of enlarge person are not explicitly listed as being 5th CL, therefore they are at CL 1. The additional cost is justified by the fact that the potion takes effect instantly while the spell normally takes 1 round to take effect.
clannagh
07-26-07, 01:24 AM Yes, but it also states that all potions are at minimum caster level unless specifically stated otherwise. The potions of enlarge person are not explicitly listed as being 5th CL, therefore they are at CL 1. The additional cost is justified by the fact that the potion takes effect instantly while the spell normally takes 1 round to take effect.

hhmmm ..

so the alchemists guild is charging a 400% markup because it feels the adventurer population will be prepared to pay the premium for convenience sake ???

hmmm .. there must be some relevant price surveillance authority somewhere
Jay_Ibero_911
07-26-07, 01:31 AM hhmmm ..

so the alchemists guild is charging a 400% markup because it feels the adventurer population will be prepared to pay the premium for convenience sake ???

hmmm .. there must be some relevant price surveillance authority somewhere

Eh, no sense in trying to apply any logic to D&D economics...it's designed for balance from the adventurers perspective, not the world economy perspective...
JamesMaissen
07-26-07, 02:08 AM Yes, but it also states that all potions are at minimum caster level unless specifically stated otherwise. The potions of enlarge person are not explicitly listed as being 5th CL, therefore they are at CL 1. The additional cost is justified by the fact that the potion takes effect instantly while the spell normally takes 1 round to take effect.

Umm.. no. You will note that potions of Lesser Restoration don't have such a markup despite having an even longer casting time.

It's simply an oversight when they just took the tables from the 3.0 books.. much the same way that they list a wand of heightened ray of enfeeblement amongst the wands even though the spell no longer has a saving throw.

There is no such exception to the formulae for making consumables. If you take it that way, then the 250gp is the error and it should simply be 50gp. You will note that no potion listed has a caster level attached to it.

Amusingly enough I went through this with customer service who first used that same line ('for balance reasons') and claimed it was on purpose rather than accident. After a few questions such as 'what is the cost to make such a potion' and 'what would a higher caster level potion cost' that changed to it being in error.

-James
Jay_Ibero_911
07-26-07, 02:42 AM Umm.. no. You will note that potions of Lesser Restoration don't have such a markup despite having an even longer casting time.

It's simply an oversight when they just took the tables from the 3.0 books.. much the same way that they list a wand of heightened ray of enfeeblement amongst the wands even though the spell no longer has a saving throw.

There is no such exception to the formulae for making consumables. If you take it that way, then the 250gp is the error and it should simply be 50gp. You will note that no potion listed has a caster level attached to it.

Amusingly enough I went through this with customer service who first used that same line ('for balance reasons') and claimed it was on purpose rather than accident. After a few questions such as 'what is the cost to make such a potion' and 'what would a higher caster level potion cost' that changed to it being in error.

-James

Well unfortunately until it hits the DMG errata they are 250gp CL 1 potions as written.
JamesMaissen
07-26-07, 12:21 PM Well unfortunately until it hits the DMG errata they are 250gp CL 1 potions as written.

Text trumps table. The rules for potion costs are fairly clear. The table is in error, just like it is with scrolls of reincarnate and disguise self instead of alter self.

-James
ShinAkuma2
07-26-07, 12:47 PM Text trumps table. The rules for potion costs are fairly clear. The table is in error, just like it is with scrolls of reincarnate and disguise self instead of alter self.

And here, the text states that all potions on the charts are minimum caster level unless otherwise specified (for instance, Barkskin +4 potion necessarily comes from a CL9th caster).

"Text trumps table" only applies when there's a disagreement between the two sources, not whenever it's convenient for you.

If the Reduce/Enlarge potions said something along the lines of "Enlarge person 5 minutes (potion)" then it'd clearly be CL5th, but with no such specification in sight, we revert to the default rule: Minimum caster level.
bitznarf
07-26-07, 12:56 PM If the Reduce/Enlarge potions said something along the lines of "Enlarge person 5 minutes (potion)" then it'd clearly be CL5th, but with no such specification in sight, we revert to the default rule: Minimum caster level.
At which point the potion has the wrong price on the table.
Mommy was an Orc
07-26-07, 01:11 PM And here, the text states that all potions on the charts are minimum caster level unless otherwise specified (for instance, Barkskin +4 potion necessarily comes from a CL9th caster).

That's a rule of thumb; it isn't a rule. i.e. unless you have reason to question the caster level of a potion on the chart, it is the minimum caster level. The Barkskin +4 potion doesn't say it comes from a 9th level caster - it lets you figure it out for yourself based on the cost of the potion.

i.e. how is the potion of Enlarge Person costing 250 gp not specifying that it is different from the norm...
Zarron
07-27-07, 03:26 PM Couldn't you also use your immediate action with Short Haft (PHB II) to threaten the spaces around you if you wanted to specialize in a pole arm?
KarmaInferno
07-28-07, 10:11 AM Sure, if you can afford the extra feat.

Armor spikes allow much the same thing, but don't require spending a feat, just a little gold.

-karma

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KYOGOTH 07-24-07, 07:51 PM	i have never used a reach weapon before.how does combat enfold with one? reading the ph i get the impression that i will be constantly backpedalling as my opponent takes his 5foot step to get inside my reach(AoA?)thereby becoming adjacent to me rendering my weapon useless,and me 5foot stepping back to hit him/her/it! or am i supposed to bullrush them back 5feet? i had imagined a reach weapon could keep an opponent at bay. the rules on this leave me confused.
lseelba 07-24-07, 08:02 PM	i have never used a reach weapon before.how does combat enfold with one? reading the ph i get the impression that i will be constantly backpedalling as my opponent takes his 5foot step to get inside my reach(AoA?)thereby becoming adjacent to me rendering my weapon useless,and me 5foot stepping back to hit him/her/it! or am i supposed to bullrush them back 5feet? i had imagined a reach weapon could keep an opponent at bay. the rules on this leave me confused. Here is how it usually plays out with reach weapons that can't be used adjacent: 1) You charge in (or move in) and hit the opponent from 5' away. 2) The opponent 5' steps forward and makes a full attack. 3) You 5' step back and make a full attack. 4) If at any time an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity while within 5' of you, you smack them with your armor spikes. 5) See step 2 Here is an excellent tactic that will usually be much better: 1) You ready an attack for when your opponent is within reach (readying against a charge is also good to do) 2) Your opponent charges in, giving you TWO attacks (first your readied attack, then your attack of opportunity) 3) You then 5' back and make a full attack, opponent follows, etc. Here is a vastly superior tactic: 1) You get enlarged by some way or another 2) You smack the opponents around at the edge of your 20' reach 3) They can't 5' step to attack you, so they have to move in, provoking attacks of opportunity -Lou
KYOGOTH 07-24-07, 08:11 PM	thanks iseelba
clannagh 07-25-07, 01:06 AM	a good trick with a reach opponent is to back them up against a wall then they need to move sideways 10' to hit you
Jay_Ibero_911 07-25-07, 01:23 AM	Reach weapons are also handy for dealing with enemies that have reach as well. Helps you avoid unnecessary AOO's. Also handy for bottleneck areas only 5ft wide, so main melee guy is in the front, with you right behind him with your reach weapon. Sure the bad guys have cover, but at least it's threatening them with one more attack then otherwise.
Ralis 07-25-07, 11:05 AM	My main character uses a glaive as his primary weapon. And depending on your build, what Iseeble told you is pretty accurate as to how things unfold. But (at least in my area) there is usually another melee type character on the table, without a reach weapon who will be toe to toe with the monster and draw the bulk of his attention. Another handy trick is the Knights Bulwark of Defence ability with a reach weapon. Bulwark makes the squares you threaten difficult terrain, so they can't take a free five foot step without provoking an AoO.
bitznarf 07-25-07, 11:18 AM	Another handy trick is the Knights Bulwark of Defence ability with a reach weapon. Bulwark makes the squares you threaten difficult terrain, so they can't take a free five foot step without provoking an AoO. Just a note to those who may not be aware. The Bulwark of Defence only affects enemies if they start their turn in your threatened area. If they have something like Spring Attack/Flyby Attack/Ride-by Attack they can remain virtually immune to the ability.
control freak 07-25-07, 11:50 AM	or you can enlarge yourself with a spiked chain and have cbt reflexes :D spiked chains are the best reach whepons simply because they have no penaltys and (if you do it right) can FORCE AoAs useing the knights ablity with something like this kinght 1: EWP spiked chain, combat reflexes (with at least a 14 dex) knight 2: knight 3: bulwark, (power attack or cbt expertise) cleric 1: (strength+ some domain and get a PoP1 or 2 so you can be enlarged all day) cleric 2: cleric 3: imp trip/ CWI then go into a PrC or anything as long as you get full BAB save the 1 level of cleric
Howie23 07-25-07, 11:54 AM	cleric 1: (strength+ some domain and get a PoP1 or 2 so you can be enlarged all day) Enlarge Person, at minutes per caster level, plus a PoP or two equals enlarged all day?
control freak 07-25-07, 12:59 PM	Enlarge Person, at minutes per caster level, plus a PoP or two equals enlarged all day? 1 enlarge person+ 2 PoP1= 3 enlarges per day to deal with those 3 encounters/day :D :incog: :emp: that may be minor meta gameing but it is also common knowlage that theres tipicaly 3 encounters/mod (hence why Extra rage so good you rage all day)
bitznarf 07-25-07, 01:10 PM	Enlarge Person has a 1 round casting time, a major downside in my opinion. I think you'd be better off using a wand and eating the (minor) extra cost.
Howie23 07-25-07, 01:35 PM	Enlarge Person has a 1 round casting time, a major downside in my opinion. I think you'd be better off using a wand and eating the (minor) extra cost. It takes 1 round from a wand, too.
King Kashue 07-25-07, 01:38 PM	Enlarge Person has a 1 round casting time, a major downside in my opinion. I think you'd be better off using a wand and eating the (minor) extra cost. Wands of Enlarge take onel round as well. (This is a common mistake) Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a long casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand). Edit: Damn, beat me too it...That's what I get for giving the rules reference...I guess Howie is okay with not being thorough ;)
Some_call_me_Tim 07-25-07, 02:41 PM	1 enlarge person+ 2 PoP1= 3 enlarges per day to deal with those 3 encounters/day :D :incog: :emp: that may be minor meta gameing but it is also common knowlage that theres tipicaly 3 encounters/mod (hence why Extra rage so good you rage all day)Who needs three/day? I've seen way too many modules with one encounter/day for three days. As you say, it's common knowledge there are almost always three combat encounters per module, generally at EL=APL+2. It makes those once/day abilities all that much more powerful. To keep this somewhat on topic. Make sure you carry a back-up weapon for when you can't back-pedal. My favorite reach weapon is the ranseur. You get +2 to disarm and since it is reach weapon you likely won't be threatened when you make the attempt. The guisarme is nice if you like to trip. Plus neither have the stigma of the spiked chain attached.
Samwise 07-25-07, 02:43 PM	Or find access to greater enlarge person. :D
bitznarf 07-25-07, 04:31 PM	It takes 1 round from a wand, too. Huh, so it does. Somehow I thought spell trigger items only took a standard action. Oops.
Howie23 07-25-07, 05:41 PM	Edit: Damn, beat me too it...That's what I get for giving the rules reference...I guess Howie is okay with not being thorough ;) Oh, you know me, slovenly and undisciplined... :) David
Nutation 07-25-07, 06:50 PM	Enlarge Person has a 1 round casting time, a major downside in my opinion. I think you'd be better off using a wand and eating the (minor) extra cost. It's the potion of Enlarge Person that is a standard action (with a not-so-minor cost).
clannagh 07-25-07, 10:05 PM	It's the potion of Enlarge Person that is a standard action (with a not-so-minor cost). As some compensation to the cost .. it is priced at CL5 which gives you a 5 minute enlarge. in some cases (viz. a dungeon crawl) that may last through several encounters.
ShinAkuma2 07-25-07, 10:19 PM	As some compensation to the cost .. it is priced at CL5 which gives you a 5 minute enlarge. in some cases (viz. a dungeon crawl) that may last through several encounters. That's a fine and dandy interpretation, but since that's not actually stated anywhere, it's not true in the realm of an LG game. It's just more expensive because it's more powerful.
Drezden 07-25-07, 10:27 PM	But where does it say that the potion is NOT 5 mins (or that it is just 1 minute)? The potion is priced as a caster level 5 potion; I think the duration should be 5 minutes. Unless I am missing something (don't have access to any books or docs right now), I think the duration is ambiguous. For the most part, it usually won't even matter, as most fights are over within 10 rounds. Daren That's a fine and dandy interpretation, but since that's not actually stated anywhere, it's not true in the realm of an LG game. It's just more expensive because it's more powerful.
clannagh 07-25-07, 10:53 PM	That's a fine and dandy interpretation, but since that's not actually stated anywhere, it's not true in the realm of an LG game. It's just more expensive because it's more powerful. Bear in mind that historically the price was brought forward unchanged from the 3.0 version which for technical reasons (the spell was different) actually had to be a CL5 potion.
JamesMaissen 07-26-07, 12:28 AM	That's a fine and dandy interpretation, but since that's not actually stated anywhere, it's not true in the realm of an LG game. It's just more expensive because it's more powerful. Sure it is.. the PhB gives the formula for potions (as does the DMG I believe). Enlarge Person is a 1st level wizard/sorcerer spell, so by those formulas it would cost 50gp per caster level. Priced at 250gp that makes it 5th level. -James
Jay_Ibero_911 07-26-07, 12:58 AM	Sure it is.. the PhB gives the formula for potions (as does the DMG I believe). Enlarge Person is a 1st level wizard/sorcerer spell, so by those formulas it would cost 50gp per caster level. Priced at 250gp that makes it 5th level. -James Yes, but it also states that all potions are at minimum caster level unless specifically stated otherwise. The potions of enlarge person are not explicitly listed as being 5th CL, therefore they are at CL 1. The additional cost is justified by the fact that the potion takes effect instantly while the spell normally takes 1 round to take effect.
clannagh 07-26-07, 01:24 AM	Yes, but it also states that all potions are at minimum caster level unless specifically stated otherwise. The potions of enlarge person are not explicitly listed as being 5th CL, therefore they are at CL 1. The additional cost is justified by the fact that the potion takes effect instantly while the spell normally takes 1 round to take effect. hhmmm .. so the alchemists guild is charging a 400% markup because it feels the adventurer population will be prepared to pay the premium for convenience sake ??? hmmm .. there must be some relevant price surveillance authority somewhere
Jay_Ibero_911 07-26-07, 01:31 AM	hhmmm .. so the alchemists guild is charging a 400% markup because it feels the adventurer population will be prepared to pay the premium for convenience sake ??? hmmm .. there must be some relevant price surveillance authority somewhere Eh, no sense in trying to apply any logic to D&D economics...it's designed for balance from the adventurers perspective, not the world economy perspective...
JamesMaissen 07-26-07, 02:08 AM	Yes, but it also states that all potions are at minimum caster level unless specifically stated otherwise. The potions of enlarge person are not explicitly listed as being 5th CL, therefore they are at CL 1. The additional cost is justified by the fact that the potion takes effect instantly while the spell normally takes 1 round to take effect. Umm.. no. You will note that potions of Lesser Restoration don't have such a markup despite having an even longer casting time. It's simply an oversight when they just took the tables from the 3.0 books.. much the same way that they list a wand of heightened ray of enfeeblement amongst the wands even though the spell no longer has a saving throw. There is no such exception to the formulae for making consumables. If you take it that way, then the 250gp is the error and it should simply be 50gp. You will note that no potion listed has a caster level attached to it. Amusingly enough I went through this with customer service who first used that same line ('for balance reasons') and claimed it was on purpose rather than accident. After a few questions such as 'what is the cost to make such a potion' and 'what would a higher caster level potion cost' that changed to it being in error. -James
Jay_Ibero_911 07-26-07, 02:42 AM	Umm.. no. You will note that potions of Lesser Restoration don't have such a markup despite having an even longer casting time. It's simply an oversight when they just took the tables from the 3.0 books.. much the same way that they list a wand of heightened ray of enfeeblement amongst the wands even though the spell no longer has a saving throw. There is no such exception to the formulae for making consumables. If you take it that way, then the 250gp is the error and it should simply be 50gp. You will note that no potion listed has a caster level attached to it. Amusingly enough I went through this with customer service who first used that same line ('for balance reasons') and claimed it was on purpose rather than accident. After a few questions such as 'what is the cost to make such a potion' and 'what would a higher caster level potion cost' that changed to it being in error. -James Well unfortunately until it hits the DMG errata they are 250gp CL 1 potions as written.
JamesMaissen 07-26-07, 12:21 PM	Well unfortunately until it hits the DMG errata they are 250gp CL 1 potions as written. Text trumps table. The rules for potion costs are fairly clear. The table is in error, just like it is with scrolls of reincarnate and disguise self instead of alter self. -James
ShinAkuma2 07-26-07, 12:47 PM	Text trumps table. The rules for potion costs are fairly clear. The table is in error, just like it is with scrolls of reincarnate and disguise self instead of alter self. And here, the text states that all potions on the charts are minimum caster level unless otherwise specified (for instance, Barkskin +4 potion necessarily comes from a CL9th caster). "Text trumps table" only applies when there's a disagreement between the two sources, not whenever it's convenient for you. If the Reduce/Enlarge potions said something along the lines of "Enlarge person 5 minutes (potion)" then it'd clearly be CL5th, but with no such specification in sight, we revert to the default rule: Minimum caster level.
bitznarf 07-26-07, 12:56 PM	If the Reduce/Enlarge potions said something along the lines of "Enlarge person 5 minutes (potion)" then it'd clearly be CL5th, but with no such specification in sight, we revert to the default rule: Minimum caster level. At which point the potion has the wrong price on the table.
Mommy was an Orc 07-26-07, 01:11 PM	And here, the text states that all potions on the charts are minimum caster level unless otherwise specified (for instance, Barkskin +4 potion necessarily comes from a CL9th caster). That's a rule of thumb; it isn't a rule. i.e. unless you have reason to question the caster level of a potion on the chart, it is the minimum caster level. The Barkskin +4 potion doesn't say it comes from a 9th level caster - it lets you figure it out for yourself based on the cost of the potion. i.e. how is the potion of Enlarge Person costing 250 gp not specifying that it is different from the norm...
Zarron 07-27-07, 03:26 PM	Couldn't you also use your immediate action with Short Haft (PHB II) to threaten the spaces around you if you wanted to specialize in a pole arm?
KarmaInferno 07-28-07, 10:11 AM	Sure, if you can afford the extra feat. Armor spikes allow much the same thing, but don't require spending a feat, just a little gold. -karma