Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NotMousse 03-13-07, 12:15 AM	I've recently been reincarnated (from a Human to a mountain dwarf), but I can not tell if my favored class changes based on the new race I've acquired. Do you change favored class with a change in race due to Reincarnate? Actually, a rundown on the entire process would be liked, all I can figure is that I gain 2 con, lose 10' speed, and can no longer be slowed by armor.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 12:27 AM	I've recently been reincarnated (from a Human to a mountain dwarf), but I can not tell if my favored class changes based on the new race I've acquired. Do you change favored class with a change in race due to Reincarnate? Actually, a rundown on the entire process would be liked, all I can figure is that I gain 2 con, lose 10' speed, and can no longer be slowed by armor. I forget what the final ruling was, but I think you also lose your human bonus feat and bonus skill points. At least you don't lose any charisma...
King Kashue 03-13-07, 01:24 AM	I forget what the final ruling was, but I think you also lose your human bonus feat and bonus skill points. At least you don't lose any charisma... Are you sure? The LGCS doesn't mention that. It mentions losing racial feats you no longer qualify for, not losing bonus feats. And it doesn't mention skills at all. The spell itself mentions keeping feats and all skill ranks. I didn't find a FAQ entry, did I miss it?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 01:49 AM	Are you sure? The LGCS doesn't mention that. It mentions losing racial feats you no longer qualify for, not losing bonus feats. And it doesn't mention skills at all. The spell itself mentions keeping feats and all skill ranks. I didn't find a FAQ entry, did I miss it? Maybe you're right...I just know the question came up a while back and I don't remember the resolution. Maybe it was Alter Self that you lost human bonus feat and skill points with...
Timlagor 03-13-07, 06:56 AM	It was ALter Self, Polymorph, Alternate Form and Wild Shape that this came up in conjuntion with. I though it was just too silly to bother with ('not well modelled' if you need a rules justification ;)) so I don't remember the details. I would consider Favoured Class to be a feature of burture rather than nature and consequently not affected by Reincarnate. I'd raise it with your Triad though if you can't find the rule... how about posting it on Britt's Questions/Answers thread?
Mattastrophic 03-13-07, 10:22 AM	The Human bonus feat and extra skill points are racial bonuses, just like Martial Weapon Proficency (longsword, etc) and +2 to Spot, Listen, and Search are racial bonuses for elves. What the FAQ clarified is that when you change type, you lose those special qualities. Reincarnation causes a change in type, and thus you lose all racial qualities associated with your former type, i.e. pretty much everything in the Races chapter. In short, Reincarnation is usually bad news, unless you have a way to control what form you come out as. -Matt
bitznarf 03-13-07, 10:27 AM	The Human bonus feat and extra skill points are racial bonuses, just like Martial Weapon Proficency (longsword, etc) and +2 to Spot, Listen, and Search are racial bonuses for elves. What the FAQ clarified is that when you change type, you lose those special qualities. Reincarnation causes a change in type, and thus you lose all racial qualities associated with your former type, i.e. pretty much everything in the Races chapter. In short, Reincarnation is usually bad news, unless you have a way to control what form you come out as. -Matt However, re-incarnation specifically states that you keep all feats and skill points you already have, hence the confusion. Edit: Are you suggesting that if for example a gray elf re-incarnated as a human, they would retroactively gain a feat and skill points?
NotMousse 03-13-07, 11:40 AM	Where is Britt's Questions/Answers thread?
King Kashue 03-13-07, 12:04 PM	The Human bonus feat and extra skill points are racial bonuses, just like Martial Weapon Proficency (longsword, etc) and +2 to Spot, Listen, and Search are racial bonuses for elves. What the FAQ clarified is that when you change type, you lose those special qualities. Reincarnation causes a change in type, and thus you lose all racial qualities associated with your former type, i.e. pretty much everything in the Races chapter. In short, Reincarnation is usually bad news, unless you have a way to control what form you come out as. -Matt There's a difference between "type" and "race" that you're ignoring here. You don't change "type" when you are reincarnated. You begin a humanoid, you end a humanoid, same type... The spell explicitly says you keep all feats. And it also mentions nothing about losing racial abilities, merely that you lose racial stat adjustments.
Mattastrophic 03-13-07, 12:44 PM	The spell explicitly says you keep all feats. And it also mentions nothing about losing racial abilities, merely that you lose racial stat adjustments. Looks like I don't use Reincarnate much, ha. But yeah, whatever the spell says, you're good. What I know doesn't come with you are stuff like Elven +2 to Spot/Listen/Search. -Matt
kenobi65 03-13-07, 01:52 PM	Where is Britt's Questions/Answers thread? The "sticky" thread that says: "LG Questions/Answers", permanently residing at the top of the general LG board page. :D http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=759998
NotMousse 03-14-07, 01:05 AM	Ah yes... I should've seen it before.
paigeoliver 03-14-07, 07:18 AM	Reincarnate isn't all that scary for some characters. I would never try it on a high level fighting character, but a mid to low level caster/support, or a low level fighting character? It can be a risk worth taking with those characters. So far I have had two reincarnations, both on the same character. The character was a very short, skinny and young human female girly girl fighting type character. All strength and charisma, 10 or less in everything else. Her first reincarnation turned her into an elf. On a roleplaying note that meant she was even shorter and thinner and girlier. But on a powergaming note that tanked her CON to 8. Her second reincarnation went the other route. She came back as a half orc. This completely killed the visual aspect of the character, now she is a sub 5' half-orc, which I imagine makes her look like a goblin. But on a powergaming note she did gain +2 STR.
NotMousse 03-15-07, 09:04 PM	As a strange aside, I actually gained HP from my reincarnation. Lost 4 from level, and gained 5 from Con bonus.
Timlagor 03-16-07, 12:07 AM	My wizard would definitely be interested in a Reincarnate if it wasn't for one thing: - The risk of getting kicked from the campaign ..and the fact that you can't use re-rolls on it OK two things: - The risk of turning into an NPC - The fact that you can't re-roll and the general inferiority of all other races Three! THREE things! My wizard would be -oh I'll just go out and come in again shall I?
RanielK 03-17-07, 04:11 AM	My wizard would definitely be interested in a Reincarnate if it wasn't for one thing: - The risk of getting kicked from the campaign ..and the fact that you can't use re-rolls on it OK two things: - The risk of turning into an NPC - The fact that you can't re-roll and the general inferiority of all other races Three! THREE things! My wizard would be -oh I'll just go out and come in again shall I? Because nobody expects the horcish evoker!
Timlagor 03-17-07, 10:47 PM	Because nobody expects the horcish evoker! Exactly! [though actually an orcish enchanter would be more surprising :)]
copper_wyrmling 03-17-07, 11:14 PM	When my sorcerer Azrien was very low-level, she wanted desperately to die and be reincarnated as a gnome. As second preference, she would've accepted reincarnation as a halfling, elf, half-elf, dwarf, half-orc or non-Suloise human. She really wasn't happy about being pure Suel ;) However, all her attempts to get herself killed in the presence of a mid-high-level druid (without being obvious about it: she figured the druids might feel that wanting to be reincarnated was unnatural and should not be encouraged) were thwarted by chance and her party members' tendency to put themselves between her and danger (because of course she then had to use her most powerful magics to stop the enemy from harming her friends). Then she found out about her draconic bloodlines (copper, silver, and red... so far). She doesn't stress about being "pure Suel" anymore ;) Her interest in reincarnation also dropped sharply after a good friend of hers, a grey elf wizard, accepted a reincarnation (I guess figuring that his physical stats couldn't possibly get any worse), came back as a gnoll, and was removed from the campaign. It does happen :( (Although we had a rash of reincarnations in Canberra around that time and almost everybody else came back as a half-elf female. It was quite bizarre.)
Zanzibax 03-18-07, 07:27 AM	Exactly! [though actually an orcish enchanter would be more surprising :)] An orcish Shadowcaster Mage would take the cake in my opinion.
Hariman 03-19-07, 03:01 AM	I had a human male rogue die and come back as a female elf. I cheered when that happened. The ruling my DM gave me was that I kept the first level of human benefits (Bonus Feat + a few extra skill points) AND became an elf. Then she died again and game back as a halfling girl. It has worked out REALLY well. That extra +1 to dex and the size bonus stack up nicely. She moves slower, but that's a small price to pay. And I still got to keep the human bonus feat. BUT, I really don't want to go through another reincarnation. It's a 16 in 100 chance (I think that's the right number.) that you'll lose your character. Plus, with my luck, my rogue/wizard would come back as a dwarf. Hariman PS: Ironically, both times my rogue died, he/she died to a failed reflex save. I've since switched dice to a new set.
Timlagor 03-19-07, 07:01 AM	An orcish Shadowcaster Mage would take the cake in my opinion. Well that's only because everyone else would lose their appetite when they saw him :P
DerekSTheRed 03-26-07, 10:31 PM	I've recently been reincarnated (from a Human to a mountain dwarf), but I can not tell if my favored class changes based on the new race I've acquired. Do you change favored class with a change in race due to Reincarnate? Actually, a rundown on the entire process would be liked, all I can figure is that I gain 2 con, lose 10' speed, and can no longer be slowed by armor. I was just at AggieCon and had to get a reincarnate after 5 out of 6 players died at my table including my human rogue/cleric. Fortunately, I came back as the exact same race AND subrace as I had before. I was exceptionally lucky and I probably won't choose reincarnate again. On the plus side I basically got a raise dead for 1750 instead 5500 so I've got that going for me. When I asked the Senior Judge at the con about the favored class question (before I rolled on the reincarnate table) he said you keep your human bonus feat and bonus skills that you got at that point but didn't get anymore bonus skills if you were reincarnated as anything but Human. He didn't know about the favored class and I would have asked one of our triad members or Britt (who was there) if I didn't come back as a human. Since I did I didn't need to ask and I forgot about it. Derek
haferka 03-27-07, 12:06 AM	Favored Class changes to the new race... Feats & Skills are the only thing that you keep when you reincarnate.. all other racial traits are replaced by the new race.
Akhamshyy 03-27-07, 01:55 AM	I'd really want to see an actual rule citation or an official ruling before we start giving people XP penalties because they came back as something else and their levels are based off their starting race's favored class.
haferka 03-27-07, 08:21 AM	From the LGCS: Reincarnate: No modifiers to the roll or rerolls are allowed. The GM and at least one player other than the deceased must witness the roll. If the result is a creature other than a dwarf, human, halfling, gnome, half-elf, halforc, or elf, the PC becomes an NPC and can never again be played as a PC in LG. Sex may be determined randomly, as the player’s discretion. Reincarnate may only be cast on humanoid PCs or cohorts. If you no longer qualify for a racial feat because of a change in race, select another feat that is Open to your PC and for which you meet the prerequisites. If you no longer qualify for a racial prestige class, including those tied to the worship of a deity you no longer qualify to venerate, you cannot advance any further in the racial prestige class, but you retain levels you already gained. If you are a divine caster, you may continue to worship your deity and receive divine spells and other abilities associated with the worship of that deity. From the SRD: Reincarnate Transmutation Level: Drd 4 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Touch Target: Dead creature touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) With this spell, you bring back a dead creature in another body, provided that its death occurred no more than one week before the casting of the spell and the subject’s soul is free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw. Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated. A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2. (If this reduction would put its Con at 0 or lower, it can’t be reincarnated). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. It’s possible for the change in the subject’s ability scores to make it difficult for it to pursue its previous character class. If this is the case, the subject is well advised to become a multiclass character. For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table. For nonhumanoid creatures, a similar table of creatures of the same type should be created. A creature that has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be returned to life by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be reincarnated. The spell cannot bring back a creature who has died of old age. d% Incarnation Str Dex Con 1 Bugbear +4 +2 +2 02–13 Dwarf +0 +0 +2 14–25 Elf +0 +2 –2 26 Gnoll +4 +0 +2 27–38 Gnome –2 +0 +2 39–42 Goblin –2 +2 +0 43–52 Half-elf +0 +0 +0 53–62 Half-orc +2 +0 +0 63–74 Halfling –2 +2 +0 75–89 Human +0 +0 +0 90–93 Kobold –4 +2 –2 94 Lizardfolk +2 +0 2 95–98 Orc +4 +0 +0 99 Troglodyte +0 –2 +4 100 Other +? +? +? The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form. A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form. Material Component: Rare oils and unguents worth a total of least 1,000 gp, spread over the remains. See bold text above... About the "Prefered class changing.." anyone else have a quote?
King Kashue 03-27-07, 12:39 PM	See bold text above... About the "Prefered class changing.." anyone else have a quote? Not sure why you bolded those sections...Neither refers to the preferred class. One deals with feats and PrCs that have racial prereqs. And the other refers to class abilities, feats and skill ranks. None of that is racial abilities.
haferka 03-27-07, 12:58 PM	feats & skill points are racial abilities... humans get both.. elves get martial weapon proficiencies.. If you reincarnate multiple times between human & another race...you will continually gain new feats & skill points... ***this might only works if you reincarnate into a 1st level human, not sure... be warned... expect table variation...which is a BAD thing with something this fundamental to your character
King Kashue 03-27-07, 01:10 PM	feats & skill points are racial abilities... humans get both.. elves get martial weapon proficiencies.. No, they're not. The Human Bonus feat and bonus skill points are racial abilities. Normal feats and skill points have nothing to do with race.
haferka 03-27-07, 01:15 PM	No, they're not. The Human Bonus feat and bonus skill points are racial abilities. Normal feats and skill points have nothing to do with race. the reincarnate spell specifically says that you do NOT loose feats or skill points... it makes no difference that the skill was granted by race...
Zanzibax 03-27-07, 01:21 PM	I've recently been reincarnated (from a Human to a mountain dwarf), but I can not tell if my favored class changes based on the new race I've acquired. Do you change favored class with a change in race due to Reincarnate? Actually, a rundown on the entire process would be liked, all I can figure is that I gain 2 con, lose 10' speed, and can no longer be slowed by armor. Yes. So humans use whatever their highest level is as their favored class. So if you were a 1 barbarian / 4 sorcerer, your favored class, as a human, is sorcerer. If you were a 1 sorcerer / 4 barbarian, your favored class, as a human, is barbarian. Now...if you're re-incarnated to a dwarf, your favored class becomes...fighter... Now your 1 sorcerer / 4 barbarian takes an XP hit for the next several levels...but your Charisma doesn't.
Zanzibax 03-27-07, 01:22 PM	the reincarnate spell specifically says that you do NOT loose feats or skill points... it makes no difference that the skill was granted by race... Begging for abuse.
King Kashue 03-27-07, 01:47 PM	Begging for abuse. Only if it's unbalanced in application. If someone going Human -> Elf keeps their feats and extra skill points, and someone going Elf -> gains the bonus feat and skill points, then it's balanced (or if they lose/don't gain, either way). There's already advantageous and disadvantageous reincarnations, so it's not like one choice or the other is best on that criterion. Going from anything to a Half-Orc, Wood Elf, or Dwarf is a stat advantage. Going to a grey-elf is a disadvantage. Depending on class, going to Elf, gnome, or halfling can all be an advantage or disadvantage. It's an explicitly imbalanced process.
Zanzibax 03-27-07, 02:12 PM	Only if it's unbalanced in application. If someone going Human -> Elf keeps their feats and extra skill points, and someone going Elf -> gains the bonus feat and skill points, then it's balanced (or if they lose/don't gain, either way). There's already advantageous and disadvantageous reincarnations, so it's not like one choice or the other is best on that criterion. Going from anything to a Half-Orc, Wood Elf, or Dwarf is a stat advantage. Going to a grey-elf is a disadvantage. Depending on class, going to Elf, gnome, or halfling can all be an advantage or disadvantage. It's an explicitly imbalanced process. I'm thinking about "grey elves"...just to be perfectly clear.
DroidTrooper 03-27-07, 07:31 PM	Begging for abuse. It is begging for abuse. This is why it has the requirement of requiring a 3rd observer and the disallowing of modifiers and rerolls. Not to mention the possible loss of the character entirely. Its been abusable for a long time though, and I don't see it abused much at all. I admit I was surprised to see the removal of the restriction against NPC druids casting the spell when it does not appear on a printed spell list. Perhaps they are planning to print that restriction someplace else like in the mods preamble. I am not sure what you are getting at regarding grey elves though. I think they would avoid reincarnation like the plauge.
Hariman 03-27-07, 10:44 PM	Only if it's unbalanced in application. If someone going Human -> Elf keeps their feats and extra skill points, and someone going Elf -> gains the bonus feat and skill points, then it's balanced (or if they lose/don't gain, either way). There's already advantageous and disadvantageous reincarnations, so it's not like one choice or the other is best on that criterion. Going from anything to a Half-Orc, Wood Elf, or Dwarf is a stat advantage. Going to a grey-elf is a disadvantage. Depending on class, going to Elf, gnome, or halfling can all be an advantage or disadvantage. It's an explicitly imbalanced process. But it's RANDOM. I might have lucked out twice and had my human rogue/wizard come back as an elf, then a halfling. (If I can help it, I'm not getting that character reincarnated EVER again. Halfling works very well for a ranged touch caster.) But there are just as many people who will have their ultra strong Power Attacker come back as an elf, or halfling. And a few will lose their characters to the LG illegal races. Plus, you have no rerolls. There's no provision for using a "Wish" or "Miracle" favor to return to your original form. And there's no guarantee that you will get anything good out of it.
King Kashue 03-27-07, 11:24 PM	But it's RANDOM. I might have lucked out twice and had my human rogue/wizard come back as an elf, then a halfling. (If I can help it, I'm not getting that character reincarnated EVER again. Halfling works very well for a ranged touch caster.) But there are just as many people who will have their ultra strong Power Attacker come back as an elf, or halfling. And a few will lose their characters to the LG illegal races. Plus, you have no rerolls. There's no provision for using a "Wish" or "Miracle" favor to return to your original form. And there's no guarantee that you will get anything good out of it. Yeah it's random, so? :D It's not raise dead. If you want certainty, get a raise dead. Having an issue with reincarnate for being random is like saying "I don't like cats, because they're not dogs...they should be dogs" :D Reincarnate is designed to be random, and it's designed to be unbalanced. The only goal in adjudicating it is to make sure that only the inherent unbalanced/randomness is present, and that we don't add more by the way we judge it.
JBeauMI 03-28-07, 07:17 AM	For a case in point, did I get this right? Asherati reincarnated as a Wood Elf Asherati racial traits lost: +1 Natural Armor Natural Dryness Sandswim Body Lamp Racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently Water Vulnerability Favored Class: Rogue Asherati racial traits kept: Heat Endurance (feat) Eagle’s Fury (feat) Languages, skill points and HP from prior level of the character Wood Elf racial traits gained: +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con Immunity to sleep, +2 vs enchantments and charms Low-light vision Racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot Favored Class: Ranger Wood Elf racial traits not gained: Weapon Proficiency (feats) long/shot bow, long sword. rapier
GorTeX 03-28-07, 07:46 AM	For a case in point, did I get this right? Asherati reincarnated as a Wood Elf Asherati racial traits kept: Heat Endurance (feat) Eagle’s Fury (feat) Languages, skill points and HP from prior level of the character Wood Elf racial traits not gained: Weapon Proficiency (feats) long/shot bow, long sword. rapier It is my understanding that you would lose the Heat endurance and Eagle's Fury and gain the Elf Weapon profs. (I don't recall asherati that well..I am assuming those 'feats' are similar to the elf weapon prof's and given specifically to Asherati--not something like the human bonus feat (which they get to keep). When my Dwarven Chain fighter was reincarnated into a gnome, I was told I lost the Dwarven racial 'feat' that allows them to count a Dwarven waraxe and Urgosh as martial weapons.
MaxDog 03-28-07, 08:15 AM	If someone going Human -> Elf keeps their feats and extra skill points, and someone going Elf -> gains the bonus feat and skill points, then it's balanced (or if they lose/don't gain, either way). From the SRD (emphasis mine): Humans * Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. * Human base land speed is 30 feet. * 1 extra feat at 1st level. * 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. * Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill. * Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count. Humans gain the extra feat at first level -- a creature reincarnating into a Human won't gain the extra feat since it wasn't human at first level. Likewise, since a character gains skill points when they attain a level, a newly reincarnated human will not gain more skill points for any levels he currently has (ie a fourth level character reincarnating as a (third level) human won't gain 4+3= 7 skill points. Any level he gains after the reincarnation, he WILL gain an extra skill point. It is an unbalanced (and unbalancing) phenomenon -- but remember that the original idea was that D&D was meant to be played by a small group who could easily make home rules as they saw fit, not a world-wide campaign for involving thousands of people, many of whom would never meet.
haferka 03-28-07, 08:40 AM	If the racial ability states that you "gain" or "have" 1 or more feats... then you keep them... If the racial ability states that you "act as if you had" 1 or more feats.. then you loose them... From Elf entry of the SRD: Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. From Dwarf entry of the SRD: Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. so, the elf would keep his martial weapon proficiencies.. and the dwarf would loose his weapon familiarity.
Reylance 03-28-07, 10:47 AM	It would really help for the campaign staff to list, for each legal humanoid race, "these are the attributes you gain/lose in reincarnate" and "these are the attributes that don't change when you are reincarnated." Right now, you have to guess "is this a physical trait of the race, or does this ability reflect the race's training/background/education?"
haferka 03-28-07, 10:59 AM	perhaps a dispeling confusion article? can I have my party cast reincarnate...multiple time...killing me between castings if I show up as an npc race? I assume that abusing the suggestion above could be reported to the triad as 'abuse'.
MaxDog 03-28-07, 11:17 AM	perhaps a dispeling confusion article? can I have my party cast reincarnate...multiple time...killing me between castings if I show up as an npc race? I assume that abusing the suggestion above could be reported to the triad as 'abuse'. From a purely legalistic view it would be a moot point -- once you reincarnated as an NPC race, you would no longer control the character. Not that that helps the discussion in ANY way. :)
bitznarf 03-28-07, 11:18 AM	That would be balanced by the level loss however haferka.
JBeauMI 03-28-07, 06:44 PM	If the racial ability states that you "gain" or "have" 1 or more feats... then you keep them... If the racial ability states that you "act as if you had" 1 or more feats.. then you loose them... So Heat Endurance is kept: "Asheratis gain Heat Endurance as a bonus feat." and Weapon Familiarity is lost: "Asheratis treat the eagle's claw as a martial weapon..." haferka, what is the source for this distinction? I was OK with the feat/non-feat distinction, but this seems . . . capricious. I did not buy eagle's claws so it does not matter, but it seems a strange way to draw the line.
haferka 03-29-07, 12:12 AM	I am interpreting the spell text. Which states rather plainly that you keep your skill points & Feats that you already possessed. There is not distinction between feats/skill points gained through racial traits and those gained by virtue of character level.
_metz_ 03-29-07, 12:17 AM	If it doesn't say you lose it then you don't. Reincarnate changes physical form, not the training you had with an axe when you are a kid. THough you may be less dextrous or whatever then before. A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. If the subject was 1st level, its new Constitution score is reduced by 2. (If this reduction would put its Con at 0 or lower, it can’t be reincarnated). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form. NO mention of lost favoured class. SO thus it doesn't happen. Often the easiest way is if it doesn't say something has hanged, then it hasn't. "Occasionally a corpse is really just a corpse. as hard as that is for perrenders to accept."
Zanzibax 03-30-07, 09:15 AM	Ok...that last interpretation was just weird. I think a "Dispel Confusion" or Circle ruling listing losses/gains for each LG legal chacter race for reincarnation would be simple...it should already seem obvious...but obviously *cough* it isn't to everyone.
Zanzibax 04-04-07, 11:52 AM	I forget what the final ruling was, but I think you also lose your human bonus feat and bonus skill points. At least you don't lose any charisma... So if you don't lose any charisma when being changed from a human to a dwarf...then you shouldn't lose any intelligence or charisma when being changed from a human to a half-orc...and you shouldn't lose any intelligence when being changed from a grey elf to anything else. CORRECT?
JBeauMI 04-04-07, 05:26 PM	So if you don't lose any charisma when being changed from a human to a dwarf...then you shouldn't lose any intelligence or charisma when being changed from a human to a half-orc...and you shouldn't lose any intelligence when being changed from a grey elf to anything else. CORRECT? Since you start by removing the racial modifiers from the deceased, the grey elf would loose his/her racial intelligence modifier. Since humans have no racial modifiers, there is no loss from that side of the equation.
JBeauMI 04-04-07, 05:33 PM	The spell description reads: A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. . . . The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. Since the character is loosing 1 level, how are the hit points unchanged? Do you really have a character with one additional hit die? The same applies to class abilities, skill ranks and feats. Are they retained, or are they reduced to the prior level of the character?
bitznarf 04-04-07, 05:36 PM	Since you start by removing the racial modifiers from the deceased, the grey elf would loose his/her racial intelligence modifier. Since humans have no racial modifiers, there is no loss from that side of the equation. I recommend you go read the spell description again. Only your physical ability scores change, not your mental ones. Going from Half-Orc to Grey Elf would *suck*.
JBeauMI 04-04-07, 05:40 PM	I recommend you go read the spell description again. Only your physical ability scores change, not your mental ones. Going from Half-Orc to Grey Elf would *suck*. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. If you begin by "eliminating the subject's racial adjustments" the grey elf looses his intelligence racial bonus. You do not receive any penalties to intelligence, wisdom or charaisma from the new race.
lunarfish 04-04-07, 05:49 PM	Since you start by removing the racial modifiers from the deceased, the grey elf would loose his/her racial intelligence modifier. Since humans have no racial modifiers, there is no loss from that side of the equation. However, the spell itself reads (text bolded by me): Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The new body does not affect Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma. Does this mean that you still lose your racial ability modifiers to mental stats if you are a Grey Elf, Dwarf, Wood Elf, or Half-Orc? Reading only the non-bold text, one could only interpret that you remove ALL of the original racial modifiers, but the first sentence (which I've taken the liberty of bolding) implies that this only affects a reincarnated character's physical ability scores. So, esteemed Circle members, which is the interpretation that LG uses?
bitznarf 04-04-07, 05:49 PM	First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. If you begin by "eliminating the subject's racial adjustments" the grey elf looses his intelligence racial bonus. You do not receive any penalties to intelligence, wisdom or charaisma from the new race. "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores." Right, so for Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, you do exactly that. Oh, and there is that nifty table that shows the conversions for the standard reincarnation options...
taylorj 04-04-07, 05:51 PM	First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. If you begin by "eliminating the subject's racial adjustments" the grey elf looses his intelligence racial bonus. You do not receive any penalties to intelligence, wisdom or charaisma from the new race. So if you're a race with penalties to mental attributes, and you somehow manage to get lucky on the wheel of reincarnate and come back around to your starting race, you've effectively shed your mental penalties.
lunarfish 04-04-07, 06:10 PM	So if you're a race with penalties to mental attributes, and you somehow manage to get lucky on the wheel of reincarnate and come back around to your starting race, you've effectively shed your mental penalties. Potentially, yes. I believe that this is not the case, that your mental scores are set at character generation and remain unchanged by reincarnate, but I will not be so presumptuous as to treat that opinion as a statement of fact until I hear official word from a person of rules authority. LG doesn't care about my opinion, it cares about the rules interpretations of it's campaign management and the appropriate rules-knowledgeable individuals at WotC.
JBeauMI 04-04-07, 06:18 PM	IMHO: the sentence "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body." does not state that intelligence, wisdom and/or charisma remain unchanged. The phrase "First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race)" is not limited to the physical attributes of the deceased. Two paragraphs later, the table is referenced in the sentence "For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table." So if you're a race with penalties to mental attributes, and you somehow manage to get lucky on the wheel of reincarnate and come back around to your starting race, you've effectively shed your mental penalties. Yes
taylorj 04-04-07, 07:04 PM	Seems like shedding your mental penalties is just begging for abuse - create a high-physical-stats character with none of the down sides of racial mental penalties.
bitznarf 04-04-07, 08:17 PM	IMHO: the sentence "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body." does not state that intelligence, wisdom and/or charisma remain unchanged. The phrase "First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race)" is not limited to the physical attributes of the deceased. Two paragraphs later, the table is referenced in the sentence "For a humanoid creature, the new incarnation is determined using the following table." Yes You know JBeauMI, I don't say this often in D&D, but you are just flat out wrong. The reincarnation rules don't work that way, never have, never will. You seem to be working with "The Rules As I Interpret Them And You Can't Prove I'm Wrong, Nyeah", the RAIITAYCPIWN if you will. First posted here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=592166) I think. Following the same logic, everyone can fly, because the rules don't say you can't.
JBeauMI 04-04-07, 09:59 PM	You know JBeauMI, I don't say this often in D&D, but you are just flat out wrong. The reincarnation rules don't work that way, never have, never will.1. I am getting used to it. 2. De facto stardards are standards. When they are accepted and repeated as the rule, they are the rule. 3. I am incapable of combining the concept of reincarnation with common sense. Clearly, I am flawed.
Zanzibax 04-05-07, 09:07 PM	IMHO: the sentence "Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body." does not state that intelligence, wisdom and/or charisma remain unchanged. The phrase "First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race)" is not limited to the physical attributes of the deceased. Nope...Strength Dexterity, and Constitution scores are the only things that change. This first sentence states that clearly. The second sentence tells you to remove them. This fact is again confirmed in a table that only lists changes to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores *because* Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma modifiers do not change from one racial incarnation to the next.
DroidTrooper 04-06-07, 02:05 AM	I don't think there is any simply about it. I also don't think this a rules don't say it doesn't happen so its okay. The rules are not terribly clear. When I started LG I was mildly surprised that reincarnate was not one of the restricted/closed spells as it is unbalanced. As so far as attributes go I've always read the spell as: 1. Remove all previous racial adjustments (ie all stats return to their base scores) 2. Apply racial adjustments as listed in chart for current race. I don't see this being any more desirable or broken then having your original int/wis/cha though. It just means the person looking to abuse this starts with a race with positive mental stats and desires reincarnation into a physically blessed race or a mentally challenged race desires reincarnation into a physically blessed race. The net change is going to be about the same.
JBeauMI 04-06-07, 06:43 AM	The Reincarnation spell also includes a wonderful self-contradiction. A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. . . . The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. How can you are reduce the target character's level by 1 while leaving the BAB, base saves, hit points, class abilities, etc. unchanged? Clearly it should state that those attributes of the character are returned to the past level, but it does not. It is a poorly written spell.
Japangirl 04-06-07, 12:47 PM	I don't think there is any simply about it. I also don't think this a rules don't say it doesn't happen so its okay. The rules are not terribly clear. When I started LG I was mildly surprised that reincarnate was not one of the restricted/closed spells as it is unbalanced. As so far as attributes go I've always read the spell as: 1. Remove all previous racial adjustments (ie all stats return to their base scores) 2. Apply racial adjustments as listed in chart for current race. I don't see this being any more desirable or broken then having your original int/wis/cha though. It just means the person looking to abuse this starts with a race with positive mental stats and desires reincarnation into a physically blessed race or a mentally challenged race desires reincarnation into a physically blessed race. The net change is going to be about the same. The character's mind never changes, just the body. That is the fluff/spirit/RAI part of reincarnate and why not to change mental stats. The RAW is that there is a sentence that says "A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form", which suggests that its mental stats do not change. Second, slightly later in the paragraph it says: Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The 'adjustments found below' are in a chart that lists alterations of physical stats only, not mental stats. The paragraph as a whole only refers to physical stats as well. So by using English grammar, you would eliminate racial adjustments to the three stats listed in the previous sentence and replace those adjustments with the ones on the chart. Mental stats are left untouched by the whole process. As for JBeauMI's comments on leaving saves, BAB, and HP unchanged: you do. If you were a Rog 4/Ftr 2, for example, you come back as a Rog 4/Ftr 2 who has lost a level for the trauma of having died, but still being a Rog 3/Ftr 2 who has all Roguish and Fighterish abilities, saves, and skills intact. You don't magically turn into a 5th level commoner. By a plain reading of the English language, taking all sentences contextually, mental stats are completely unaffected by the reincarnation process and only physical stats are affected. The only way to even attempt to argue otherwise requires decontextualizing one sentence and then pointing to it devoid of its background information, never a good logical tactic (that's right Scalia, I mean you too!).
DroidTrooper 04-06-07, 08:40 PM	I fully believe the original intend of the spell was to have mental stats remain unchanged. The best argument for it retaining mental stats is the 3.0 version of reincarnation which plainly states that Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma remain unchanged. I think this is the largest reason why people hold to that belief is because that is what it said when they first read the spell. The greatest reason I believe that it changed, is I see removing the line that mental stats remain unchanged was deliberate act in version 3.5 to power down the spell a notch. This is because removing negatives to be less powerful and/or unbalancing than retaining positives. In the over arching picture I don’t think it’s a big deal one way or the other as the numbers of reincarnations I have seen have been very few and far between. So long as it’s a real d100 roll to find out what you become, there are enough strongly negative options I don’t mind letting the player have it his way.
Hariman 04-08-07, 02:03 AM	The Reincarnation spell also includes a wonderful self-contradiction. How can you are reduce the target character's level by 1 while leaving the BAB, base saves, hit points, class abilities, etc. unchanged? Clearly it should state that those attributes of the character are returned to the past level, but it does not. It is a poorly written spell. And when the hit dice or level is reduced by one, the character loses all benefits of said hit die or level. Thus, losing bonuses to saves, BAB, spellcasting, etc. That specific excerpt from "Reincarnation" states that class and hit die related bonuses stay the same, barring the loss of one hit die.