Retraining and PrC requirements [Archive] - Wizards Community

Retraining and PrC requirements [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bitznarf
03-13-07, 07:01 PM I've got a question about retraining that I really have no idea how exactly this works out.

Example 1: retraining a feat
Pretty straight forward, retrain into Weapon Focus (exotic weapon) at level 7 to qualify for Exotic Weapon Master: Ftr6/EWM1
Is this legal? As I understand it, yes it is.

Example 2: retraining skills
Retrain 4 skill ranks into a (currently) non-class skill using the 'including a class he is about to gain with his current level increase' clause to move the ranks into a requirement for said new class. For example, Wiz5/Mindbender1.
Is this legal? This is what I am not sure about, and am looking for some help figuring it out.

Reason(s) it should be legal:
-Assuming that example 1 is legal, example 2 uses very similar logic and wording in the RAW to accomplish the wanted effect.

Reason(s) it should not be legal:
-We are in effect (sort of), using a PrC to qualify for itself.

I don't think we are actually using any of the Mindbender PrC benefits to qualify for the PrC, we are using the rules as laid out in the PH2 to do so.

Thoughts?
Timlagor
03-13-07, 07:25 PM I think the answer is that you can't do Example 1; you must qualify for the class you are taking before you can Retrain.
magebeast
03-13-07, 10:57 PM You take the level and then retrain, it happens immediately after you *gain* the level, not before. You couldn't take the level of EWM yet.
bitznarf
03-14-07, 01:32 AM You take the level and then retrain, it happens immediately after you *gain* the level, not before. You couldn't take the level of EWM yet.

including a class he is about to gain with his current level increase.

You haven't actually gained your new level yet.
clik_ml
03-14-07, 02:36 AM You haven't actually gained your new level yet.

That's my understanding of it. Which means that you can do it just before leveling in example 1 to qualify for some prestige class. The drawback is that for skills you are bound by your max ranks for the level just before (example: if retraining as a 5th level charcacter going into level 6, your max class skill ranks are 8, and max cross-class ranks are 4).

I'm wanting to refrain from answering the 2nd case since I don't have any reference stuff with me. I'm pretty sure you can only retrain *into* skills that were class skills at once point in your build, which means no-go on the mindbender example. But it's a fuzzy recollection and these rules are new to me too.
Gallaway
03-14-07, 03:14 AM the wording states the retraining occurs before you get any BENEFITS of the new level

to me that implies it occurs after you level but as the first step in the process

this might be a good question for Britts Q&A thread
solbergb
03-14-07, 02:07 PM Right...which means it is BEFORE The usual first step "pick your class".

Ie....yes, you can swap in a prereq feat before choosing the class that needs it. The timing is right.

I think of it as "the last thing I do before I level" actually. That keeps the PHB rules on leveling intact. But it is a distiction without a difference.
bitznarf
03-14-07, 03:06 PM I'm wanting to refrain from answering the 2nd case since I don't have any reference stuff with me. I'm pretty sure you can only retrain *into* skills that were class skills at once point in your build, which means no-go on the mindbender example. But it's a fuzzy recollection and these rules are new to me too.

Actually the rules are quite specific about this. You can use your next class' skill list for this purpose. The iffy bit is that I would not be able to take the class with the skill ranks, but I am using the classes skill list to get the ranks preemptively.
copper_wyrmling
03-14-07, 04:41 PM Right...which means it is BEFORE The usual first step "pick your class".

Ie....yes, you can swap in a prereq feat before choosing the class that needs it. The timing is right.

I think of it as "the last thing I do before I level" actually. That keeps the PHB rules on leveling intact. But it is a distiction without a difference.

I thought this until I read the skills section which says the skills you can retrain into are partially determined by the level you're currently taking. That implies to me that the retraining step is inserted right after "choose your class" - and for safety's sake, that's what I'll assume when retraining my characters, unless there's a Dispel Confusion.
bitznarf
03-14-07, 04:43 PM 10-1 it will be a 'core rules issue'
solbergb
03-14-07, 10:05 PM Frankly I think WOTC rolled a "1" on their "make rules" roll when they did the skill retraining.

Unlike all the other kinds it isn't a straightforward "do something you could have done" thing, and it allows builds impossible any other way. This latest thing that Tracy points out (using class skills from a class you don't even have yet to retrain ranks into something that would have been cross-class) is even stupider.

At least they did the feat and class ability retraining right *sigh*. In general the retraining rules are pretty solid. The skills though...arg.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bitznarf 03-13-07, 07:01 PM	I've got a question about retraining that I really have no idea how exactly this works out. Example 1: retraining a feat Pretty straight forward, retrain into Weapon Focus (exotic weapon) at level 7 to qualify for Exotic Weapon Master: Ftr6/EWM1 Is this legal? As I understand it, yes it is. Example 2: retraining skills Retrain 4 skill ranks into a (currently) non-class skill using the 'including a class he is about to gain with his current level increase' clause to move the ranks into a requirement for said new class. For example, Wiz5/Mindbender1. Is this legal? This is what I am not sure about, and am looking for some help figuring it out. Reason(s) it should be legal: -Assuming that example 1 is legal, example 2 uses very similar logic and wording in the RAW to accomplish the wanted effect. Reason(s) it should not be legal: -We are in effect (sort of), using a PrC to qualify for itself. I don't think we are actually using any of the Mindbender PrC benefits to qualify for the PrC, we are using the rules as laid out in the PH2 to do so. Thoughts?
Timlagor 03-13-07, 07:25 PM	I think the answer is that you can't do Example 1; you must qualify for the class you are taking before you can Retrain.
magebeast 03-13-07, 10:57 PM	You take the level and then retrain, it happens immediately after you gain the level, not before. You couldn't take the level of EWM yet.
bitznarf 03-14-07, 01:32 AM	You take the level and then retrain, it happens immediately after you gain the level, not before. You couldn't take the level of EWM yet. including a class he is about to gain with his current level increase. You haven't actually gained your new level yet.
clik_ml 03-14-07, 02:36 AM	You haven't actually gained your new level yet. That's my understanding of it. Which means that you can do it just before leveling in example 1 to qualify for some prestige class. The drawback is that for skills you are bound by your max ranks for the level just before (example: if retraining as a 5th level charcacter going into level 6, your max class skill ranks are 8, and max cross-class ranks are 4). I'm wanting to refrain from answering the 2nd case since I don't have any reference stuff with me. I'm pretty sure you can only retrain into skills that were class skills at once point in your build, which means no-go on the mindbender example. But it's a fuzzy recollection and these rules are new to me too.
Gallaway 03-14-07, 03:14 AM	the wording states the retraining occurs before you get any BENEFITS of the new level to me that implies it occurs after you level but as the first step in the process this might be a good question for Britts Q&A thread
solbergb 03-14-07, 02:07 PM	Right...which means it is BEFORE The usual first step "pick your class". Ie....yes, you can swap in a prereq feat before choosing the class that needs it. The timing is right. I think of it as "the last thing I do before I level" actually. That keeps the PHB rules on leveling intact. But it is a distiction without a difference.
bitznarf 03-14-07, 03:06 PM	I'm wanting to refrain from answering the 2nd case since I don't have any reference stuff with me. I'm pretty sure you can only retrain into skills that were class skills at once point in your build, which means no-go on the mindbender example. But it's a fuzzy recollection and these rules are new to me too. Actually the rules are quite specific about this. You can use your next class' skill list for this purpose. The iffy bit is that I would not be able to take the class with the skill ranks, but I am using the classes skill list to get the ranks preemptively.
copper_wyrmling 03-14-07, 04:41 PM	Right...which means it is BEFORE The usual first step "pick your class". Ie....yes, you can swap in a prereq feat before choosing the class that needs it. The timing is right. I think of it as "the last thing I do before I level" actually. That keeps the PHB rules on leveling intact. But it is a distiction without a difference. I thought this until I read the skills section which says the skills you can retrain into are partially determined by the level you're currently taking. That implies to me that the retraining step is inserted right after "choose your class" - and for safety's sake, that's what I'll assume when retraining my characters, unless there's a Dispel Confusion.
bitznarf 03-14-07, 04:43 PM	10-1 it will be a 'core rules issue'
solbergb 03-14-07, 10:05 PM	Frankly I think WOTC rolled a "1" on their "make rules" roll when they did the skill retraining. Unlike all the other kinds it isn't a straightforward "do something you could have done" thing, and it allows builds impossible any other way. This latest thing that Tracy points out (using class skills from a class you don't even have yet to retrain ranks into something that would have been cross-class) is even stupider. At least they did the feat and class ability retraining right sigh. In general the retraining rules are pretty solid. The skills though...arg.