retraining feats and magic items [Archive] - Wizards Community

retraining feats and magic items [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
clannagh
03-28-07, 02:21 AM Here is a scenario.

Our character "george" would normally qualify for a particular feat at level 3 but lacks the prerequisite stats. For example he would like combat expertise but his dex is unfortunately only 12 so he takes toughness instead.

Whilst a level 7 george buys gloves of dex +2 and now qualifies for expertise. He wishes at level 8 to retrain the level three feat and take expertise.

Now at level 3 he could not possibly have afforded gloves of dex +2. (they cost 4000 gc and the max he earns in normal circumstances is 3000 gc by level 3)

Does this mean that he cannot retrain his level 3 feat to expertise ?

What about retraining his level 6 feat where he could have afforded the gloves but didnt bother ?
cycloptic_squirrel
03-28-07, 03:21 AM I've been wondering about this myself. All I can go off is an entry in Britt's Q&A:

Any use of retraining must have been a legal choice at the time you gained the previous rules option and must not create situations where you would have made illegal selections at later levels.

With AR's it's pretty easy to see what a character did and did not have at any such level.

I'd avoid it personally, advise against it as a DM, but without direct word on this issue in the Q&A or some relevant quote from Dispel Confusion, I'd hesitate to make an issue of it as a table DM.
paigeoliver
03-28-07, 06:56 AM I think worrying about the magic item thing is honestly overthinking the retraining rules.

The valid choice thing is to keep the character from (for example), retraining their 3rd level feat into one that requires a BAB of +8, and similar things like that.

I still wish their was a way to make a "Double Wand Wielder" druid at a reasonable level without taking a completely off topic class. The retraining rules could actually allow for that, but they don't. I wouldn't be able to make a dual wand druid until 9th level (two weapon fighting at 1st, craft wand at 6th and dual wand wielder at 9th).

But, if my druid takes a completely off topic level of marshall then I could be a dual wand druid at 6th. By taking skill focus diplomacy at 1st, two weapon fighting at 3rd, craft wand and a marshall level at 6th, and then using that marshall bonus feat (for already having skill focus diplomacy) to take dual wand wielder.
Maesto
03-28-07, 11:28 AM You can take a feat that you don't qualify for via attributes, as far as I understand it, at any point in time. You can then use a magic item to qualify for the feat. However, if you loose the item, then the feat goes, as does anything in the tree that is beneath it. So yes, the OP can do this. Oh, it's a headband of intellect for combat expertise, btw.
Puggle Halfwine
03-28-07, 01:18 PM You can take a feat that you don't qualify for via attributes, as far as I understand it, at any point in time.

Is that a circle ruling or there some weird obscure ruling somewhere I'm missing? I just assumed you had to meet the prerequisites for all feats irrespective of type when you took them...
Timlagor
03-28-07, 02:30 PM You do have to meet the requirements when you take them
You can use a magic item to meet the requirements.

It isn't clear how this works with retraining but I'd beinclined to allow it.
chesspiece
03-28-07, 03:23 PM I figure that the odds that a PC can find a friendly 3rd level cleric is pretty good (unless they live in the BK). One +4 stat enhancement spell later, and he was temporarily qualified for the feat. Hopefully he'll qualify in the future (thanks to stat bumps or items) on his own.
cycloptic_squirrel
03-28-07, 03:58 PM I'm not saying you guys are wrong, but the implications concern me.

I think most of us can agree that short term buffs won't allow you to satisfy a prereq for taking a feat because he qualified during the 37 second window in which a character raises in level.
Or I'm mistaken, in which case please tell me, as there are several enlarging fighter builds that immediately demand my attention.

Long term is more tricky. I wholeheartedly agree that if you're buffed a good majority of the time, your in the clear. I'm not real particular if the buffs come from your spells, spells of others, an item, a property of the environment you've been living in, whatever; as long as it's relatively constant.

If it's a prereq that can't really be proven given the system (say, skill-point distribution), I don't think anything too terrible will happen. It'd involve too much work and effort to design, implement, and upkeep a tracking system that would give us, as a group of gamers, almost no benefit whatsoever. More bureaucracy, which I think we would all like to avoid.
Items on the other hand...
You already have the records. You could look at them yourself if you forgot. Saying well, it could have been possible is pushing it.

Just my two cents.

(I've never heard of that attribute prereq ruling Maesto, though it would solve quite a few problems. Create a few too, but that's the way the game goes! ;) )
clannagh
03-28-07, 07:13 PM You can take a feat that you don't qualify for via attributes, as far as I understand it, at any point in time. You can then use a magic item to qualify for the feat. However, if you loose the item, then the feat goes, as does anything in the tree that is beneath it. So yes, the OP can do this. Oh, it's a headband of intellect for combat expertise, btw.

yeah ..i was originally thinking of TWF as an example and changed to combat expertise and got it all confuddled.

As far as taking the feat goes the PHB is pretty clear you need the prerequisite to select the feat:

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.
_metz_
03-29-07, 12:07 AM I A head band of Int doesn't give you an increased int score, its a permanent buff while the item is on.

Hence your Int isn't 13 you can't take the feat. I think the PHB is pretty clear on this, otherwise you can take power attack and rage to be able to use it.

The score is the prereq to get the feat. Magic items don't count unless they are the books which permanantly increase an inherent stat.

Retraining assumes that you had the score when you got the feat also, so you can't take say, dodge at level 3, and at level 5 retrain it to power attack after your level 4 bump knowcked your str up to 13 (making it legal.)

Hence you can't retrain a level 3 feat into leadership later on, as far as I can see, as at level 3 you could not meet the prerequisites.

I may be worng on this, but its my interpretation of waht seem to be pretty clear LGCS and PHB ruling.
clannagh
03-29-07, 12:31 AM .. ... A head band of Int doesn't give you an increased int score, its a permanent buff while the item is on.

Hence your Int isn't 13 you can't take the feat. I think the PHB is pretty clear on this, otherwise you can take power attack and rage to be able to use it ....

A feat sometimes requires you have a certian ability score, which is the case with two weapon fighting (it requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears an item, in this case Gloves of Dexterity + 2 and now her Dex score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only when she wears the item?

Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from the item.
_metz_
03-29-07, 12:39 AM Like I said, I may have been wrong on it, if its in a FAQ what is the need for this thread.
Maesto
03-29-07, 08:41 AM Yes, it's in the FAQ, so I will allow it :)
Timlagor
03-29-07, 09:29 AM Bearing the FAQ ruling in mind, go read the original question again.
Maesto
03-29-07, 12:31 PM Given the way that the FAQ is worded, I see no reason why you cannot take "Power Attack" with a strength 6 character for his first level feat. Sure, it'll be a while before you he can use it (belt of giant's strength +6 as well as a stat bump), but he can take it.

Just like a dex 14 character can take two weapon fighting (assuming I got the dex requirement correct from memory), who can then _later_ pick up gloves of dexterity +2 and be happy.

I see no reason why retraining changes anything here. I'm willing to let somebody get away with it for attributes. Not BAB or other feat prereqs, or caster level prereqs, but for attributes I will give leniency.

My interpretation.
bitznarf
03-29-07, 12:34 PM The problem with that Maesto, is that LG tends to move towards the most restrictive ruling. At your table it works, fine, but what happens at a table where the DM rules the other way? Suddenly the character is not playable. Thus, people sometime try not to make characters that will not work at some tables, and therefor, follow the more restrictive ruling.
chesspiece
03-29-07, 03:07 PM If a PC wishes to take a feat that they don't meet the stat prereq's for, I believe that the reasonable questions is "how are you going to meet the prereq's"? If they can come up with a way (borrowed items, spells, wildshape), then let them take it - assuming they have access.

So the Str6 gnome druid could take power attack once he can wildshape - but probably not before.

My system needs a bit of work for retraining. You're no longer looking to answer "how you can do it", but rather "how you could have done it". I think it's reasonable for Judges to be flexible - at least for +4 enhancement bumps.
_metz_
03-29-07, 09:59 PM frankly I think it just encourages more optimisation and goes a little against the spirit of the feats in general.

I wouldn't allow it at my table if I ever got the option. (barring except the druid wildshaping example, MAYBE)
Maesto
03-29-07, 10:59 PM The other half of the thing is that if the character doesn't meet the prereqs, it's a dead feat, and if a player wants to give his character a dead feat, then so be it. It's not helping him. The FAQ says that a character can use magic items etc to meet prereqs, so if he does meet the prereq, it's no longer a dead feat, and he is allowed to use it.
Gallaway
03-30-07, 01:10 AM The real issue seems to be this:

When retraining a feat where the PC does not naturally have the stats to qualify, does the PC have to show evidence (MIL etc.) of having the required stat boost item at the time he chose the original feat or can he simply claim the character " was able to borrow a xxx +6 at the time he acquired the original feat"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
clannagh 03-28-07, 02:21 AM	Here is a scenario. Our character "george" would normally qualify for a particular feat at level 3 but lacks the prerequisite stats. For example he would like combat expertise but his dex is unfortunately only 12 so he takes toughness instead. Whilst a level 7 george buys gloves of dex +2 and now qualifies for expertise. He wishes at level 8 to retrain the level three feat and take expertise. Now at level 3 he could not possibly have afforded gloves of dex +2. (they cost 4000 gc and the max he earns in normal circumstances is 3000 gc by level 3) Does this mean that he cannot retrain his level 3 feat to expertise ? What about retraining his level 6 feat where he could have afforded the gloves but didnt bother ?
cycloptic_squirrel 03-28-07, 03:21 AM	I've been wondering about this myself. All I can go off is an entry in Britt's Q&A: Any use of retraining must have been a legal choice at the time you gained the previous rules option and must not create situations where you would have made illegal selections at later levels. With AR's it's pretty easy to see what a character did and did not have at any such level. I'd avoid it personally, advise against it as a DM, but without direct word on this issue in the Q&A or some relevant quote from Dispel Confusion, I'd hesitate to make an issue of it as a table DM.
paigeoliver 03-28-07, 06:56 AM	I think worrying about the magic item thing is honestly overthinking the retraining rules. The valid choice thing is to keep the character from (for example), retraining their 3rd level feat into one that requires a BAB of +8, and similar things like that. I still wish their was a way to make a "Double Wand Wielder" druid at a reasonable level without taking a completely off topic class. The retraining rules could actually allow for that, but they don't. I wouldn't be able to make a dual wand druid until 9th level (two weapon fighting at 1st, craft wand at 6th and dual wand wielder at 9th). But, if my druid takes a completely off topic level of marshall then I could be a dual wand druid at 6th. By taking skill focus diplomacy at 1st, two weapon fighting at 3rd, craft wand and a marshall level at 6th, and then using that marshall bonus feat (for already having skill focus diplomacy) to take dual wand wielder.
Maesto 03-28-07, 11:28 AM	You can take a feat that you don't qualify for via attributes, as far as I understand it, at any point in time. You can then use a magic item to qualify for the feat. However, if you loose the item, then the feat goes, as does anything in the tree that is beneath it. So yes, the OP can do this. Oh, it's a headband of intellect for combat expertise, btw.
Puggle Halfwine 03-28-07, 01:18 PM	You can take a feat that you don't qualify for via attributes, as far as I understand it, at any point in time. Is that a circle ruling or there some weird obscure ruling somewhere I'm missing? I just assumed you had to meet the prerequisites for all feats irrespective of type when you took them...
Timlagor 03-28-07, 02:30 PM	You do have to meet the requirements when you take them You can use a magic item to meet the requirements. It isn't clear how this works with retraining but I'd beinclined to allow it.
chesspiece 03-28-07, 03:23 PM	I figure that the odds that a PC can find a friendly 3rd level cleric is pretty good (unless they live in the BK). One +4 stat enhancement spell later, and he was temporarily qualified for the feat. Hopefully he'll qualify in the future (thanks to stat bumps or items) on his own.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-28-07, 03:58 PM	I'm not saying you guys are wrong, but the implications concern me. I think most of us can agree that short term buffs won't allow you to satisfy a prereq for taking a feat because he qualified during the 37 second window in which a character raises in level. Or I'm mistaken, in which case please tell me, as there are several enlarging fighter builds that immediately demand my attention. Long term is more tricky. I wholeheartedly agree that if you're buffed a good majority of the time, your in the clear. I'm not real particular if the buffs come from your spells, spells of others, an item, a property of the environment you've been living in, whatever; as long as it's relatively constant. If it's a prereq that can't really be proven given the system (say, skill-point distribution), I don't think anything too terrible will happen. It'd involve too much work and effort to design, implement, and upkeep a tracking system that would give us, as a group of gamers, almost no benefit whatsoever. More bureaucracy, which I think we would all like to avoid. Items on the other hand... You already have the records. You could look at them yourself if you forgot. Saying well, it could have been possible is pushing it. Just my two cents. (I've never heard of that attribute prereq ruling Maesto, though it would solve quite a few problems. Create a few too, but that's the way the game goes! ;) )
clannagh 03-28-07, 07:13 PM	You can take a feat that you don't qualify for via attributes, as far as I understand it, at any point in time. You can then use a magic item to qualify for the feat. However, if you loose the item, then the feat goes, as does anything in the tree that is beneath it. So yes, the OP can do this. Oh, it's a headband of intellect for combat expertise, btw. yeah ..i was originally thinking of TWF as an example and changed to combat expertise and got it all confuddled. As far as taking the feat goes the PHB is pretty clear you need the prerequisite to select the feat: Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.
_metz_ 03-29-07, 12:07 AM	I A head band of Int doesn't give you an increased int score, its a permanent buff while the item is on. Hence your Int isn't 13 you can't take the feat. I think the PHB is pretty clear on this, otherwise you can take power attack and rage to be able to use it. The score is the prereq to get the feat. Magic items don't count unless they are the books which permanantly increase an inherent stat. Retraining assumes that you had the score when you got the feat also, so you can't take say, dodge at level 3, and at level 5 retrain it to power attack after your level 4 bump knowcked your str up to 13 (making it legal.) Hence you can't retrain a level 3 feat into leadership later on, as far as I can see, as at level 3 you could not meet the prerequisites. I may be worng on this, but its my interpretation of waht seem to be pretty clear LGCS and PHB ruling.
clannagh 03-29-07, 12:31 AM	.. ... A head band of Int doesn't give you an increased int score, its a permanent buff while the item is on. Hence your Int isn't 13 you can't take the feat. I think the PHB is pretty clear on this, otherwise you can take power attack and rage to be able to use it .... A feat sometimes requires you have a certian ability score, which is the case with two weapon fighting (it requires Dex 15). A character has, say, Dex 13, but wears an item, in this case Gloves of Dexterity + 2 and now her Dex score is 15. Can she take the feat and have it be active only when she wears the item? Actually yes, she could take the feat, but she would lose the use of the feat if, for whatever reason, she loses the bonus from the item.
_metz_ 03-29-07, 12:39 AM	Like I said, I may have been wrong on it, if its in a FAQ what is the need for this thread.
Maesto 03-29-07, 08:41 AM	Yes, it's in the FAQ, so I will allow it :)
Timlagor 03-29-07, 09:29 AM	Bearing the FAQ ruling in mind, go read the original question again.
Maesto 03-29-07, 12:31 PM	Given the way that the FAQ is worded, I see no reason why you cannot take "Power Attack" with a strength 6 character for his first level feat. Sure, it'll be a while before you he can use it (belt of giant's strength +6 as well as a stat bump), but he can take it. Just like a dex 14 character can take two weapon fighting (assuming I got the dex requirement correct from memory), who can then _later_ pick up gloves of dexterity +2 and be happy. I see no reason why retraining changes anything here. I'm willing to let somebody get away with it for attributes. Not BAB or other feat prereqs, or caster level prereqs, but for attributes I will give leniency. My interpretation.
bitznarf 03-29-07, 12:34 PM	The problem with that Maesto, is that LG tends to move towards the most restrictive ruling. At your table it works, fine, but what happens at a table where the DM rules the other way? Suddenly the character is not playable. Thus, people sometime try not to make characters that will not work at some tables, and therefor, follow the more restrictive ruling.
chesspiece 03-29-07, 03:07 PM	If a PC wishes to take a feat that they don't meet the stat prereq's for, I believe that the reasonable questions is "how are you going to meet the prereq's"? If they can come up with a way (borrowed items, spells, wildshape), then let them take it - assuming they have access. So the Str6 gnome druid could take power attack once he can wildshape - but probably not before. My system needs a bit of work for retraining. You're no longer looking to answer "how you can do it", but rather "how you could have done it". I think it's reasonable for Judges to be flexible - at least for +4 enhancement bumps.
_metz_ 03-29-07, 09:59 PM	frankly I think it just encourages more optimisation and goes a little against the spirit of the feats in general. I wouldn't allow it at my table if I ever got the option. (barring except the druid wildshaping example, MAYBE)
Maesto 03-29-07, 10:59 PM	The other half of the thing is that if the character doesn't meet the prereqs, it's a dead feat, and if a player wants to give his character a dead feat, then so be it. It's not helping him. The FAQ says that a character can use magic items etc to meet prereqs, so if he does meet the prereq, it's no longer a dead feat, and he is allowed to use it.
Gallaway 03-30-07, 01:10 AM	The real issue seems to be this: When retraining a feat where the PC does not naturally have the stats to qualify, does the PC have to show evidence (MIL etc.) of having the required stat boost item at the time he chose the original feat or can he simply claim the character " was able to borrow a xxx +6 at the time he acquired the original feat"