Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pado1 03-29-07, 09:20 PM	Here is a a question about retraining a fighter bonus feat which is considered a class feature. Suppose a fighter took Weapon Focus X, Weapon Specialization X, and Melee Weapon Mastery X, where X is a particular weapon. All of these feats are derived from the choice of weapon made for Weapon Focus - this is similar to the way a Ranger's choice of Rapid Shot or Two Weapon fighting affects his choice of Improved Two Weapon Fighting or Manyshot. Now lets say the fighter now wants to apply all of those benefits to weapon Y. Can he retrain Weapon Focus X to Weapon Focus Y and have it automatically change the rest of the feats to Weapon Y as well? Thanks, Larry
Jay_Ibero_911 03-29-07, 09:42 PM	Here is a a question about retraining a fighter bonus feat which is considered a class feature. Suppose a fighter took Weapon Focus X, Weapon Specialization X, and Melee Weapon Mastery X, where X is a particular weapon. All of these feats are derived from the choice of weapon made for Weapon Focus - this is similar to the way a Ranger's choice of Rapid Shot or Two Weapon fighting affects his choice of Improved Two Weapon Fighting or Manyshot. Now lets say the fighter now wants to apply all of those benefits to weapon Y. Can he retrain Weapon Focus X to Weapon Focus Y and have it automatically change the rest of the feats to Weapon Y as well? Thanks, Larry Unfortunately you would have to retrain the same as any other feat chain. Mastery to feat X, Specialization to feat Y, Focus A for Focus B, feat Y for Specialization B, and feat X for Mastery B.
_metz_ 03-30-07, 01:29 AM	you should lose the other feats also. I am not sure how retraining works when it makes a feat one you have lost. I can see how you can then argue that in one retraining you can switch them all, as when you lose access to a feat you get to select another one no? If not they would just be dead feats. until retrained ofc.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-30-07, 01:42 AM	you should lose the other feats also. I am not sure how retraining works when it makes a feat one you have lost. I can see how you can then argue that in one retraining you can switch them all, as when you lose access to a feat you get to select another one no? If not they would just be dead feats. until retrained ofc. According to the DC, you can't retrain feats in such a way that you no longer qualify for other feats you have, which is why you have to retrain feat chains in the manner I outlined above.
thorinXXX 03-30-07, 03:44 PM	Bad analogy. A ranger's weapon style is one class feature, no matter how many feats are involved. Each fighter bonus feat is a separate class feature, and so must be retrained separately.
KarmaInferno 03-30-07, 06:31 PM	Basically keep in mind this: Your character must be legal after each feat re-training. Always. You cannot re-train any character option that has other things that depend on having that option. Like if you have Great Cleave, the feats Power Attack and Cleave are "locked", as Great Cleave requires those other feats. If you re-trained Great Cleave to something else first, then you could re-train Cleave or Power Attack. -karma
The_Jester 03-31-07, 09:51 AM	If weapon specialization spun-off of weapon focus then yes. Instead it is a separate feat that requires weapon focus as a pre-req. It is not a class ability and, technically, a fighter could be specialized in two or three weapons. So you would need to retrain every feat.
Samwise 03-31-07, 10:12 AM	I expect you'd have to retrain like this: Old Weapon Mastery -> New Weapon Focus Old Weapon Spec -> New Weapon Spec Old Weapon Focus -> New Weapon Mastery
The_Jester 04-01-07, 05:52 PM	Which would take three retraining and three levels and for the two intermediate levels he'd be down a feat. I'd avoid doing it...
Mithreinmaethor 04-01-07, 07:34 PM	I expect you'd have to retrain like this: Old Weapon Mastery -> New Weapon Focus Old Weapon Spec -> New Weapon Spec Old Weapon Focus -> New Weapon Mastery I suspect that this is the correct way to do this.
Japangirl 04-01-07, 07:41 PM	I expect you'd have to retrain like this: Old Weapon Mastery -> New Weapon Focus Old Weapon Spec -> New Weapon Spec Old Weapon Focus -> New Weapon Mastery That is in fact incorrect and not doable. Lets say WF A is at lvl 1, WS A is at level 4, and WM A is at level 8. If you retrain WM A into WF B, that's your level 8 feat retrained. Then you cannot retrain WS A into WS B, because at level 4 you would not have qualified for WS B. You would have to retrain as follows: WM A into something random 1 WS A into something random 2 WF A into WF B Random 2 into WS B Random 1 into WM B It's a lot of steps and retrains and probably not worth the hassle.
Samwise 04-02-07, 02:53 AM	That is in fact incorrect and not doable. Lets say WF A is at lvl 1, WS A is at level 4, and WM A is at level 8. If you retrain WM A into WF B, that's your level 8 feat retrained. Then you cannot retrain WS A into WS B, because at level 4 you would not have qualified for WS B. Bleah. I forgot about that. So yeah, you'd have to go through all those extra steps, and it wouldn't be worth it.
JamesMaissen 04-02-07, 12:35 PM	I expect you'd have to retrain like this: Old Weapon Mastery -> New Weapon Focus Old Weapon Spec -> New Weapon Spec Old Weapon Focus -> New Weapon Mastery As mentioned the character needs to be legal from the ground up (baring skill retrains which are different). So, you would need to do the following instead (assuming that both old and new weapons were the same type in regards to blunt/slash/pierce): 1. Old Feat taken before Weapon Spec (not current weapon focus) -> New Weapon Focus then by assumption since both would work for Weapon Mastery (X): 2. Old Weapon Spec -> New Weapon Spec and finally (and optionally) 3. Old Weapon Focus-> Some other feat qualified for at that time (n.b. might not be able to be the original 'Old Feat' swapped for the new weapon focus because of prereqs or nature of the source of the feat where the Old weapon focus was taken, like from a fighter bonus). In summary, it's a mess and best of luck to you. It would be nicer and in some ways simpler had the PHB2 allowed you to simply have dead feats until further retrains, but c'est la vie. -James
Timlagor 04-02-07, 02:04 PM	You can probably save some steps if: - you took two of the Feats at the same level (allowing you to 'swap' them round) - you gain a new Feat at some point in the process