Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 03-16-07, 12:00 PM	Ok, I'm not sure what the official answer is (if there even is one), but what exactly are the restrictions on retraining skill points in LG? Can you for instance have a 1st level bard, with 4 ranks in Perform and 4 ranks in escape artist, who then takes a level of fighter, and retrain those 4 ranks in escape artist into 4 ranks in swim (swim is not a bard skill, only fighter skill)? Could you then use put your fighter skill points into jump, at at a later level retrain them into perform? Does skill retraining effectively allow you to avoid buying skills cross class to a degree?
Fleetfang 03-16-07, 12:43 PM	That's about it, yes. You don't have to buy skills cross-class, but you wind up paying the TUs and gp for the priviledge. And of course, there are those levels where you have 4 ranks in Jump and your Perform skill isn't getting any better.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-16-07, 12:45 PM	That's about it, yes. You don't have to buy skills cross-class, but you wind up paying the TUs and gp for the priviledge. And of course, there are those levels where you have 4 ranks in Jump and your Perform skill isn't getting any better. Just wanted to make sure I understood it. I have a few potential builds that would benefit a lot from this.
thorinXXX 03-18-07, 01:20 PM	Just to make life sillier, you can retrain skills to qualify for a prestige class using that class's skill list. For example, take a 5th level fighter with 4 ranks in handle animal and the True Believer feat. He reaches 6th level and is planning on taking a level of Pious Templar. He retrains handle animal into knowledge (religion) and now qualifies for Pious Templar.
GorTeX 03-18-07, 03:08 PM	no, you can't do that. You don't qualify for Pious Templar without the ranks in Knowledge (religion). You can't retrain the ranks unless the skill is a class skill for one of your classes. And since you don't quailfy for PT, you can't say that you are going to level into that class. Until your fighter takes a class with a class skill in Knowledge (religion), this 'trick' would not work.
bhale187 03-18-07, 03:17 PM	no, you can't do that. You don't qualify for Pious Templar without the ranks in Knowledge (religion). You can't retrain the ranks unless the skill is a class skill for one of your classes. And since you don't quailfy for PT, you can't say that you are going to level into that class. Until your fighter takes a class with a class skill in Knowledge (religion), this 'trick' would not work. I agree, You have to qaulify for the PrC before you can benefit from it's class skills. You can use the class skills of your upcoming class, but you can't use your upcoming class skills to qualify for your upcoming class.
thorinXXX 03-19-07, 03:00 PM	I agree, You have to qaulify for the PrC before you can benefit from it's class skills. You can use the class skills of your upcoming class, but you can't use your upcoming class skills to qualify for your upcoming class. I agree that is how it should work, but that is not how it is written. You explicitly can retrain skills to class skills for a class that you do not yet have. And then you have the requisite skills to take the class. This would not be a problem if retraining was done after taking a level in a class, but it is explicitly done before.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-19-07, 03:06 PM	I agree that is how it should work, but that is not how it is written. You explicitly can retrain skills to class skills for a class that you do not yet have. And then you have the requisite skills to take the class. This would not be a problem if retraining was done after taking a level in a class, but it is explicitly done before. Yes, but you till have to choose your next class before you do the retraining, and you can't choose a class until you already have all the pre-reqs met.
bhale187 03-19-07, 03:36 PM	Yes, but you till have to choose your next class before you do the retraining, and you can't choose a class until you already have all the pre-reqs met. That's what we were getting at.
zigspatty 03-19-07, 06:38 PM	The introductory description of retraining in PHII on pg 192 is "adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character's career by selecting a different legal option." In addition, "The decision to retrain must be implemented before any benefits of the newly attained level are applied." Going by this wording, it makes zero sense that you should be able to retrain into the skills of a brand new class that you're about to take.... and yet, that's exactly the example given on pg. 194 where they suggest that the Ranger 2 taking a level of Rogue at 3rd level could use retraining to lose 4 ranks in Handle Animal and gain 4 ranks in Disable Device instead. Of course, there are no requirements that must be met before one takes a level of rogue either, (not even the old AD&D requirement for a minimum dex of 9). So there's no question that their example could take a level of rogue. But, that's not so with a prestige class which has has prerequisites that must be met before a character may take the class. Maybe the ability to retrain into skills of the new class was meant to be limited to base classes which have no skill or feat requirements? Patty
Timlagor 03-19-07, 10:52 PM	Maybe the ability to retrain into skills of the new class was meant to be limited to base classes which have no skill or feat requirements? More likely it's jsut a good old case of writers with no clue. Expect any character found to have qualified for a PrC like this to get booted from tables and reported to Triads. Even if the Triads/Circle don't do anything about it, you would get a world of grief and regularly be unable to play the character (especially since word would get around) If everyone agrees that they're not doing it then it doesn't really matter if you think it's legal.
pedr 03-20-07, 07:49 AM	So we're saying: Step 1: Choose a class for which you qualify Step 2: Do any retraining. Use your new class's class-skills as well if you want to retrain skill ranks. Step 3: Do the rest of your levelling up. I've not looked in detail - but I imagine that this means that while you couldn't, for instance, retrain a feat to 'Endurance' then take your first level of Wildrunner, you could retrain an earlier feat to Power Attack and then take Cleave as a feat if you were taking a level of fighter or were gaining a HD-feat, etc. ?
Britt 03-20-07, 08:32 AM	So we're saying: Step 1: Choose a class for which you qualify Step 2: Do any retraining. Use your new classes class-skills as well if you want to retrain skill ranks. Step 3: Do the rest of your levelling up. I've not looked in detail - but I imagine that this means that while you couldn't, for instance, retrain a feat to 'Endurance' then take your first level of Wildrunner, but you could retrain an earlier feat to Power Attack and then take Cleave as a feat if you were taking a level of fighter or were gaining a HD-feat, etc. ? Unofficially, that's how I understand it. So far, this is the only point on which I agree with complaints that the Retraining rules are fuzzy. For everything else, they seem iron clad, but this point is unclear.
clannagh 03-20-07, 06:48 PM	the time warp involved in retraining results in some interesting little logical headspins ... here is an example: - PrC XX has a prerequisite of a zillion skill points in any skill - unfortunately the only skill you can get enough ranks in is a fairly useless skill once you get the PrC sooo .... - take ranks in the useless skill at prev level to get the PrC - immediately retrain them in a more useful skill that is now a class skill for the PRC - thus meeting the PrC prerequisites with a totally different skill to the one you first qualified with earlier in the same level up
thorinXXX 03-20-07, 07:12 PM	Yes, but you till have to choose your next class before you do the retraining, and you can't choose a class until you already have all the pre-reqs met. Thats the sticking point. You cannot take a level in that class until you meet the prerequisites, but the rules are utterly silent on choosing that class. That and retraining happens before taking that level, so you will have qualified for the class by the time you take it. I have sent this question to Ask Wizards, and hopefully it will appear in the FAQ.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 07:24 PM	Thats the sticking point. You cannot take a level in that class until you meet the prerequisites, but the rules are utterly silent on choosing that class. That and retraining happens before taking that level, so you will have qualified for the class by the time you take it. I have sent this question to Ask Wizards, and hopefully it will appear in the FAQ. There's really no question as I see it. Re-training is part of the level-up process that occurs after you choose your new class but before you gain anything else from that level. Effectively falling between steps 1 and 2 of the levelup process in the PHB. You have to do step 1 before you do anything esle. So you choose your class, which must be one you currently qualify for, then you do your retraining. You can't choose a class you don't qualify for, and you can't retrain until you choose your class.
thorinXXX 03-20-07, 08:32 PM	There's really no question as I see it. Re-training is part of the level-up process that occurs after you choose your new class but before you gain anything else from that level. Effectively falling between steps 1 and 2 of the levelup process in the PHB. You have to do step 1 before you do anything esle. So you choose your class, which must be one you currently qualify for, then you do your retraining. You can't choose a class you don't qualify for, and you can't retrain until you choose your class. Per the PHB II: "Subtract up to 4 skill ranks from one skill and add an equal number of ranks to any one other skill (not including Speak Language). The skill to which you add the ranks must be a class skill for one of your character's classes, including a class he is about to gain with his current level increase. It doesn't matter whether the lost ranks were purchased as class skills or as cross-class skills." Key phrase: including a class he is about to gain. That means that it happens before step 1.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 08:47 PM	Per the PHB II: "Subtract up to 4 skill ranks from one skill and add an equal number of ranks to any one other skill (not including Speak Language). The skill to which you add the ranks must be a class skill for one of your character's classes, including a class he is about to gain with his current level increase. It doesn't matter whether the lost ranks were purchased as class skills or as cross-class skills." Key phrase: including a class he is about to gain. That means that it happens before step 1. Not at all. It in fact confirms that it happens AFTER step 1 because you don't know what class you are going to gain until you complete step one.
Loignar 03-20-07, 08:48 PM	Key phrase: including a class he is about to gain. That means that it happens before step 1. 1 + 1= 3 ?? I don't see how you come to that conclusion, in fact as I see it logic would dictate the opposite. You are getting to use those class skills for the class you are taking on that level because you are retraining AFTER you leveled up. Just as when a fighter takes a level in Ranger he gets to spend points on survival, not before he takes the level of Ranger, but at the time of becoming skilled in Ranger arts.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 08:53 PM	1 + 1= 3 ?? I don't see how you come to that conclusion, in fact as I see it logic would dictate the opposite. You are getting to use those class skills for the class you are taking on that level because you are retraining AFTER you leveled up. Just as when a fighter takes a level in Ranger he gets to spend points on survival, not before he takes the level of Ranger, but at the time of becoming skilled in Ranger arts. You are a little off there. The retraining happens after you choose your new level, but before you gain the benefits of the level, or make any other level dependant choices.
bhale187 03-20-07, 08:56 PM	You are a little off there. The retraining happens after you choose your new level, but before you gain the benefits of the level, or make any other level dependant choices. It seems to me the spirit of the rule (though not exactly the RAW) is that you gain the benefits of the level at the time you choose class for the next level. However, I still say you have to qualify to choose that class in order to designate it as the next level.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 09:15 PM	It seems to me the spirit of the rule (though not exactly the RAW) is that you gain the benefits of the level at the time you choose class for the next level. However, I still say you have to qualify to choose that class in order to designate it as the next level. The order in which you level up is spelled out quite clearly in the PHB. PHB2 modifies this slightly with the retraining options, though we can deduce where in the leveling order retraining fits in by the fact that you have to choose your class, but retraining happens before you gain any of the benefits of that level. For instance, you just got enough XP for 3rd level. You want to take feat X as your 3rd level feat, but it has pre-req Y which you don't have. So as part of leveling up, you re-train your first level feat to pre-req Y, and then you can take feat X as your 3rd level feat.
thorinXXX 03-20-07, 09:16 PM	Not at all. It in fact confirms that it happens AFTER step 1 because you don't know what class you are going to gain until you complete step one. How are you about to gain a class that you have already taken? The base retraining rules state that retraining occurs before all other benefits of leveling, and the fact that skills are taken from the class that you 'are about to gain' makes it obvious that retraining comes before taking a level in a class. Retraining is now step 0 in the leveling process.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 09:26 PM	How are you about to gain a class that you have already taken? The base retraining rules state that retraining occurs before all other benefits of leveling, and the fact that skills are taken from the class that you 'are about to gain' makes it obvious that retraining comes before taking a level in a class. Retraining is now step 0 in the leveling process. You havent taken it yet, until you complete the final step in the level up process. You have only chosen the class you are leveling up in at step one, which is clearly required to come before re-training, because until you have completed that step, you don't know what class skills you have available for retraining. Here is what the new level up steps are with re-training included: 1)Choose class 2)Retraining 3)Base attack bonus 4)Base save bonuses 5)Ability score 6)Hit Points 7)Skill Points 8)Feats 9)Spells 10)Class Features There is no way retraining can come before choosing class, because until you choose your class, you don't know what class skills you have available for re-training. And you can't choose a class you don't currently qualify for. So there is no way to use a PrC's class skills to qualify for itself.
clannagh 03-20-07, 09:30 PM	I have no opinion on where levelling up appears in the level up order published in the PHB .. i suspect circle will call it a "core rules issue" and we will need to wait for an errata or FAQ. However most PrC's have their own prerequisite skills as class skills so, IF it turns out the PrC's own class skills allow you to retrain skills to then qualify for the PrC itself, this may effectively break the access restrictions to some PrC's. Especially PrC's which appeal to low skill builds such as fighter which have skill requirements (deliberately ?) cross class. (Deepwarden comes to mind) Personally, even if it turns out by RAW to currently be OK, I would not take advantage of this with a build until its clarified as there is a risk it will be seen as a trick to dodge PrC restrictions and later be errated.
Rerednaw 03-21-07, 12:25 PM	You havent taken it yet, until you complete the final step in the level up process. You have only chosen the class you are leveling up in at step one, which is clearly required to come before re-training, because until you have completed that step, you don't know what class skills you have available for retraining. Here is what the new level up steps are with re-training included: 1)Choose class 2)Retraining 3)Base attack bonus 4)Base save bonuses 5)Ability score 6)Hit Points 7)Skill Points 8)Feats 9)Spells 10)Class Features There is no way retraining can come before choosing class, because until you choose your class, you don't know what class skills you have available for re-training. And you can't choose a class you don't currently qualify for. So there is no way to use a PrC's class skills to qualify for itself. So a favored soul 8/sacred exorcist1 cannot take Sacred Healing (or any Turn-based feats) at 9th?
Timlagor 03-21-07, 12:51 PM	[/SIZE] So a favored soul 8/sacred exorcist1 cannot take Sacred Healing (or any Turn-based feats) at 9th? Good point. I'm actually pretty sure that there has been a clarification (errata?) that you can do that. I've certainly seen people taking Extra Rage at the same level as Barbarian 1. (I could be wrong and they could all be illegal ..I don't know where such a ruling exists if indeed it does.)
Britt 03-21-07, 04:01 PM	Has anyone attempted to build a character using Skill retraining that would have been illegal without retraining? I have a suspicion that if you follow the rules of moving ranks, rather than skill points, and don't violate the max ranks by retraining into more ranks than you could have before the level you are gaining, you could probably have built that character legally without retraining. For example, if you take Rog 1 then Ftr 2, moving some of your rogue ranks into fighter skills, then apply your fighter level, I'm betting you could have done the same thing normally by purchasing skills differently or taking Ftr 1 then Rog 2. I don't have the time to do this, but it could be helpful if someone could look into that.
King Kashue 03-21-07, 04:16 PM	Good point. I'm actually pretty sure that there has been a clarification (errata?) that you can do that. I've certainly seen people taking Extra Rage at the same level as Barbarian 1. (I could be wrong and they could all be illegal ..I don't know where such a ruling exists if indeed it does.) There is not an "order" as Jay is describing. That's what people have sussed out, but it's not correct. A Cleric can take extra turning at level one, a Barbarian can take extra rage at level 1, a Fighter can take Weapon Focus at Level 1 (proficiency is a class feature, remember)... If Jay was correct, none of those would be possible...
Jay_Ibero_911 03-21-07, 05:00 PM	There is not an "order" as Jay is describing. That's what people have sussed out, but it's not correct. A Cleric can take extra turning at level one, a Barbarian can take extra rage at level 1, a Fighter can take Weapon Focus at Level 1 (proficiency is a class feature, remember)... If Jay was correct, none of those would be possible... Uh, there IS an order. It's right in the PHB. And the LGCS even specifically states that you follow the level advancement chart in the PHB.
GeorgeFHarris 03-21-07, 05:07 PM	Has anyone attempted to build a character using Skill retraining that would have been illegal without retraining? I have a suspicion that if you follow the rules of moving ranks, rather than skill points, and don't violate the max ranks by retraining into more ranks than you could have before the level you are gaining, you could probably have built that character legally without retraining. For example, if you take Rog 1 then Ftr 2, moving some of your rogue ranks into fighter skills, then apply your fighter level, I'm betting you could have done the same thing normally by purchasing skills differently or taking Ftr 1 then Rog 2. I don't have the time to do this, but it could be helpful if someone could look into that. I've seen some Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster builds with the Rogue at 1st level that uses retraining to get the prerequisite Unseen Seer ranks without having to use Wizard cross-class skills in Hide/Move Silently. Don't know if this is what you're talking about, but it certainly saves skill points. GH
King Kashue 03-21-07, 05:35 PM	Uh, there IS an order. It's right in the PHB. And the LGCS even specifically states that you follow the level advancement chart in the PHB. That's not an "order"...Read the text of the section. That's a list of the things that change upon level advancement. Nowhere does it say that is the "order" in which you gain things. All the text says is "Make these changes" (PHB p. 58)...Neither the PHB nor the LGCS refer to it as an "order" As for the specific point I was making about taking feats (and the text that makes it more clear it's not an "order") is that p. 87 says: "Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite." If the list on page 58-59 was an "order", then you could not choose feats based on class abilities, since those come "after" the feat selection. Since you explicitly can, and since nowhere does it call that list an "order" (in any source, anywhere), it's rather unlikely that reading is correct...
thorinXXX 03-21-07, 05:41 PM	Has anyone attempted to build a character using Skill retraining that would have been illegal without retraining? I have a suspicion that if you follow the rules of moving ranks, rather than skill points, and don't violate the max ranks by retraining into more ranks than you could have before the level you are gaining, you could probably have built that character legally without retraining. For example, if you take Rog 1 then Ftr 2, moving some of your rogue ranks into fighter skills, then apply your fighter level, I'm betting you could have done the same thing normally by purchasing skills differently or taking Ftr 1 then Rog 2. I don't have the time to do this, but it could be helpful if someone could look into that. L1 barb 1: Craft (baskets) 4, Swim 4, Climb 4, Jump 4 L2 Monk 1: Retrain Craft (baskets) 4 to Tumble 4; Know (religion) 4 Final: Swim 4, Climb 4, Jump 4, Tumble 4; Know (religion) 4 There is no way that character could have that many ranks in non barb skills without retraining. Had the build reversed the order in which he took his classes he would be able to do so, but that would change his hitpoints and feat selection, and limit further leveling in monk. All of these choices restrict later retraining options.
Lupo 03-21-07, 06:33 PM	Has anyone attempted to build a character using Skill retraining that would have been illegal without retraining? I have a suspicion that if you follow the rules of moving ranks, rather than skill points, and don't violate the max ranks by retraining into more ranks than you could have before the level you are gaining, you could probably have built that character legally without retraining. For example, if you take Rog 1 then Ftr 2, moving some of your rogue ranks into fighter skills, then apply your fighter level, I'm betting you could have done the same thing normally by purchasing skills differently or taking Ftr 1 then Rog 2. I don't have the time to do this, but it could be helpful if someone could look into that. complete arcan: green star adept; retraining when leveling to level 5 to fill up the knowledge [arcana] to 8 ranks, normally can first be taken at level 6. mage of the arcane order: retraining when leveling to level 5 to fill up the knowledge [arcana] to 8 ranks, normally can first be taken at level 6. suel arcanamach; retraining when leveling to level 7, something to spellcraft 5, assuming the prior classes DON'T have spellcraft as a class skill. wildmage, retraining some points into spellcraft when leveling to level 5. that is all the ones i found in complete arcane, but i think that is sufficient, the trick goes with prestige classes that don't have a high BAB or spell slot requirement and only ONE high skill to have. ciao martin m.
Britt 03-21-07, 07:53 PM	complete arcan: green star adept; retraining when leveling to level 5 to fill up the knowledge [arcana] to 8 ranks, normally can first be taken at level 6. You can't use the level you are about to gain for determining max ranks when Retraining. You haven't gained the level yet, so your max ranks are still 7 when Retraining just before level 5.
Britt 03-21-07, 07:56 PM	L1 barb 1: Craft (baskets) 4, Swim 4, Climb 4, Jump 4 L2 Monk 1: Retrain Craft (baskets) 4 to Tumble 4; Know (religion) 4 Final: Swim 4, Climb 4, Jump 4, Tumble 4; Know (religion) 4 There is no way that character could have that many ranks in non barb skills without retraining. Had the build reversed the order in which he took his classes he would be able to do so, but that would change his hitpoints and feat selection, and limit further leveling in monk. All of these choices restrict later retraining options. The hit points would be different with a different class order in LG, but not necessarily in the core rules. If you were rolling for hit points, class order wouldn't matter. I'm thinking the skill Retraining rules effectively allow you to get skill combinations you want with the levels you had if you had taken them in a different order, but due to screw ups, you don't currently have. So if you are level 5 and went "oh crap, I could have qualified for the PrC i wanted if I had taken these two levels in the opposite order!", Retraining lets you fix that.
copper_wyrmling 03-21-07, 08:11 PM	The hit points would be different with a different class order in LG, but not necessarily in the core rules. If you were rolling for hit points, class order wouldn't matter. I'm thinking the skill Retraining rules effectively allow you to get skill combinations you want with the levels you had if you had taken them in a different order, but due to screw ups, you don't currently have. So if you are level 5 and went "oh crap, I could have qualified for the PrC i wanted if I had taken these two levels in the opposite order!", Retraining lets you fix that. (this is not meant to be a good build in any sense, just a demonstration that skill retraining lets you get more ranks than is possible otherwise) Rogue 1 / Sorcerer 5 (Int 10 and non-human) L1: max ranks in Gather Information, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Open Lock, Tumble, Search, Hide, Move Silently L2: 2 ranks Concentration L3: 2 ranks Concentration L4: 2 ranks Concentration L5: 2 ranks Concentration (retrain at the start of L6: 4 ranks from Concentration to Disable Device) L6: 2 ranks Concentration Final result: Concentration 6 Disable Device 8 Gather Info 4 Diplomacy 4 Open Lock 4 Tumble 4 Search 4 Hide 4 Move Silently 4 That result requires a minimum of 42 skill points. If you keep the same class levels, the maximum number of skill points you can get is 42 (rogue at 1st gives 42 skill points in total, putting the rogue level anywhere else gives 24). If you take rogue at 1st, then without skill retraining you can't get Disable Device 8 at L6 without cross-classing, which means lower ranks in something else. There are much cleverer ways to do this sort of thing, but I think this demonstrates that you can't always emulate skill retraining by switching around class levels.
Lupo 03-21-07, 08:24 PM	You can't use the level you are about to gain for determining max ranks when Retraining. You haven't gained the level yet, so your max ranks are still 7 when Retraining just before level 5. hm, are you sure everyone is seeing this the same?? there is nothing in the retraining skill section about max ranks, if you explicitly state this, there is only a small number of skill shuffling that might give the one or other character a small amount of bonus skill points for trading class skill ranks from the former class to class skill ranks of the later. ok, somehow not impossible but giving an advantage for a retrainer: i think green star adept is the one with the most gain wiz 1 + fighter (or any other full BAB class) 4, assuming at least an int of 14 , first level 16 skill points: decipher script 2 knowledge [arcana] 4 knowledge [architecture] 2 knowledge [geography] 2 knowledge [history] 2 4 skill points to spare taking 4 fighter levels, putting any skill points into fighter class skills when leveling to level 6, swap out 4 fighter skill ranks to knowledge arcana, basically saving 4 cross class skill points. it works just like a skill point piggy bank ;), giving an advantage of 4 skill points. (not that skill points are the most valuable goods in D&D, but anyway a little gain) ciao martin m.
Mommy was an Orc 03-21-07, 08:29 PM	You can't use the level you are about to gain for determining max ranks when Retraining. You haven't gained the level yet, so your max ranks are still 7 when Retraining just before level 5. The example in the book is a Ranger 2 who takes a level of Rogue. So he's then a Ranger 2/Rogue 1 who then gets to choose any Ranger or Rogue skill he wants to add 4 ranks into... If he hasn't yet gained the level, the Rogue class skills aren't available to him. Not to mention, he can't actually gain 4 ranks in Disable Device, one of the skills listed for him.
Mommy was an Orc 03-21-07, 08:37 PM	Has anyone attempted to build a character using Skill retraining that would have been illegal without retraining? I have a suspicion that if you follow the rules of moving ranks, rather than skill points, and don't violate the max ranks by retraining into more ranks than you could have before the level you are gaining, you could probably have built that character legally without retraining. For example, if you take Rog 1 then Ftr 2, moving some of your rogue ranks into fighter skills, then apply your fighter level, I'm betting you could have done the same thing normally by purchasing skills differently or taking Ftr 1 then Rog 2. Halfling Rogue 1/Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 10 with a 12 Intelligence... You basically need 28 skill points in levels 2-5, because of cross-classing requirements. Sorcerer 4 = 8 skill points. +4 points for the 12 Intelligence. When you retrain 3 times, you not only add 9 skill points, but you avoid 9 points of cross-classing(only 9, because you start off with 2, 3, and 4 in the respective ranks) That's 30 points, more than enough to make it into Unseen Seer at 6th level with a non-human with a 12 Int(or human with 10 Int). There is no way to move the Rogue level around - that doesn't actually help, because you need it to fund the retraining. Even with your interpretation, that he'd need to be a Rogue 1/Sorcerer 5/Unseen Seer 9 build, it still isn't possible to come close with that 12 Int...
MikeJS 03-21-07, 09:22 PM	Unofficially, that's how I understand it. So far, this is the only point on which I agree with complaints that the Retraining rules are fuzzy. For everything else, they seem iron clad, but this point is unclear.So we're saying: Step 1: Choose a class for which you qualify Step 2: Do any retraining. Use your new classes class-skills as well if you want to retrain skill ranks. Step 3: Do the rest of your levelling up. Except for the very slight problem that the text of the PHB2 ("Skill Retraining" > "The Process" > "...a class he is about the gain...") indicates that retraining is now the first step of leveling, prior to choose class. This is (A) a problem which needs to be dealt with, and (B) should be resolved without "pretending" (as so many people on the LG list are doing) that the offending PHB2 text either doesn't exist, or employ odd English-comprehension to assert it actually means something other than what it implies.
Britt 03-21-07, 10:29 PM	The example in the book is a Ranger 2 who takes a level of Rogue. So he's then a Ranger 2/Rogue 1 who then gets to choose any Ranger or Rogue skill he wants to add 4 ranks into... If he hasn't yet gained the level, the Rogue class skills aren't available to him. Not to mention, he can't actually gain 4 ranks in Disable Device, one of the skills listed for him. Except the PH2 rules specifically state that the skills for the level you are about to gain (i.e. you don't have it yet) are available. Which means you don't have the level but get to use the class skills from it. You would have to have the level in order to raise the max ranks, which the PH2 specifically says you don't. That part, at least, is very clear.
Britt 03-21-07, 10:37 PM	Except for the very slight problem that the text of the PHB2 ("Skill Retraining" > "The Process" > "...a class he is about the gain...") indicates that retraining is now the first step of leveling, prior to choose class. This is (A) a problem which needs to be dealt with, and (B) should be resolved without "pretending" (as so many people on the LG list are doing) that the offending PHB2 text either doesn't exist, or employ odd English-comprehension to assert it actually means something other than what it implies. Your interpretation is the more odd one to most people that I talk to. Most people find it hard to justify saying you can know the class skills of your next level without choosing your class.
Britt 03-21-07, 10:40 PM	(this is not meant to be a good build in any sense, just a demonstration that skill retraining lets you get more ranks than is possible otherwise) Rogue 1 / Sorcerer 5 (Int 10 and non-human) L1: max ranks in Gather Information, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Open Lock, Tumble, Search, Hide, Move Silently L2: 2 ranks Concentration L3: 2 ranks Concentration L4: 2 ranks Concentration L5: 2 ranks Concentration (retrain at the start of L6: 4 ranks from Concentration to Disable Device) L6: 2 ranks Concentration Final result: Concentration 6 Disable Device 8 Gather Info 4 Diplomacy 4 Open Lock 4 Tumble 4 Search 4 Hide 4 Move Silently 4 That result requires a minimum of 42 skill points. If you keep the same class levels, the maximum number of skill points you can get is 42 (rogue at 1st gives 42 skill points in total, putting the rogue level anywhere else gives 24). If you take rogue at 1st, then without skill retraining you can't get Disable Device 8 at L6 without cross-classing, which means lower ranks in something else. There are much cleverer ways to do this sort of thing, but I think this demonstrates that you can't always emulate skill retraining by switching around class levels. Thanks, that's the kind of breakdown I was looking for.
Mommy was an Orc 03-21-07, 11:38 PM	Except the PH2 rules specifically state that the skills for the level you are about to gain (i.e. you don't have it yet) are available. Which means you don't have the level but get to use the class skills from it. You would have to have the level in order to raise the max ranks, which the PH2 specifically says you don't. That part, at least, is very clear. Which would mean that the Ranger 2/Rogue 1 example can't actually retrain into Disable Device, despite it specifically saying he can - because he can't actually put 4 ranks into Disable Device(as that exceeds his max ranks in Disable Device) It isn't that clear, either. It quite specifically happens after you attain the level, but before you obtain the benefits of that level. You have the level, the question is whether or not they're referring to the class level benefits or all benefits related to level. Yes, it is easy to interpret it as being all benefits related to level, but the way that works is so needlessly complex to make me believe that's not the intent.
Britt 03-21-07, 11:45 PM	Which would mean that the Ranger 2/Rogue 1 example can't actually retrain into Disable Device, despite it specifically saying he can - because he can't actually put 4 ranks into Disable Device(as that exceeds his max ranks in Disable Device) It isn't that clear, either. It quite specifically happens after you attain the level, but before you obtain the benefits of that level. You have the level, the question is whether or not they're referring to the class level benefits or all benefits related to level. Yes, it is easy to interpret it as being all benefits related to level, but the way that works is so needlessly complex to make me believe that's not the intent. It does not violate max ranks if the skill is considered a class skill for the 2nd level character, which seems to be the intent of the passage (as that is the only interpretation that doesn't violate other text). You do not have the level; "about to gain" cannot, in the English language, mean "already gained".
Mommy was an Orc 03-22-07, 12:00 AM	It does not violate max ranks if the skill is considered a class skill for the 2nd level character, which seems to be the intent of the passage (as that is the only interpretation that doesn't violate other text). The max ranks of a Ranger 2 in Disable Device is 2.5. Either he's a Ranger 2/Rogue 1 with 6 max ranks or he's a Ranger 2 with 2.5. To say the designers intended it to be 5 is nonsensical. You do not have the level; "about to gain" cannot, in the English language, mean "already gained". There's more than one usage in the retraining section... "she can do so immediately upon attaining 11th level, before she gains any of the benefits of that level (such as additional hit points...)' - and that's in the context that when they describe the 'process is similar to attaining a new level' and 'the retraining option can only be chosen during level advancement' i.e. they seem to be implying it happens after you gain the level, but before you pick skills, feats, roll hit points, etc...
Maesto 03-22-07, 12:11 AM	The problem that I have with the skill retraining is that the way it reads, you can choose a PrC as your next class, without meeting the skill prereqs for it, and then meet the skill prereqs because you can retrain skill ranks into the skill you need. An example is Mystic Theurge: Let's have a sorceror/favoured soul. You have Sorc4/Fav4, but neither of them have knowledge religion as a class skill, and so you're stuck with a bunch of cross class ranks. Can you now select MT as your next level, and use the ability to retrain into MT skills to qualify for MT? The other problem I have with skill retraining is that as Mommy and Copper have pointed out, you can get more effective ranks than you were otherwise entitled to by spending some gold and TUs. I can't think of anything off the top of my head at the moment, but I'm fairly sure that skill retraining makes some builds possible that are otherwise impossible because of the skill prereqs, likely because you don't have enough intelligence to get you skill points. And sometimes starting with INT 20 isn't enough to pull the backflip with double twist and pike you need to get into things a level earlier.
copper_wyrmling 03-22-07, 12:48 AM	The problem that I have with the skill retraining is that the way it reads, you can choose a PrC as your next class, without meeting the skill prereqs for it, and then meet the skill prereqs because you can retrain skill ranks into the skill you need. An example is Mystic Theurge: Let's have a sorceror/favoured soul. You have Sorc4/Fav4, but neither of them have knowledge religion as a class skill, and so you're stuck with a bunch of cross class ranks. Can you now select MT as your next level, and use the ability to retrain into MT skills to qualify for MT? Britt and quite a number of other people (including myself) seem to think that the answer is clearly no (although Britt has stressed that's his opinion, not an official ruling). First you choose your next class level (and you must meet the prereqs at that step). Then you retrain skills, before gaining any other benefits of the level.
MikeJS 03-22-07, 01:44 AM	Britt? These back-to-back post replies...Except the PH2 rules specifically state that the skills for the level you are about to gain (i.e. you don't have it yet) are available. Which means you don't have the level but get to use the class skills from it. You would have to have the level in order to raise the max ranks, which the PH2 specifically says you don't. That part, at least, is very clear....of yours....Your interpretation is the more odd one to most people that I talk to. Most people find it hard to justify saying you can know the class skills of your next level without choosing your class.....are mutually contradictory. How can you possibly choose a class prior to attaining the new level? The "about to gain" phrasing makes it pretty clear that retraining comes before class selection -- if not leveling itself. --//-- My impression of WotC's implied progression of retraining: 1. I earn enough experience to qualify for level N. 2. I "TU timestop" to retrain while still at level N-1. 3. I advance to level N, select class, then everything else. Detractors (on LG Yahoo group) from this reasoning are divided into two camps: Those who think retraining should occur between "advance to level N" and "select class", and those who think retraining should occur after "select class" and before "everything else." Problems with both: A. If one wants to maintain that retraining is stuffed inbetween "advance to level N" and "select class", then one will face the uber-cheese of players taking 8 ranks in a prereq skill at 5th and legitimately entering PrCs a level earlier than previously possible. B. If, in an attempt to shut down the cheese of (A), one maintains that retraining is stuffed inbetween "select class" and "everything else," then they're afoul of the letter of the retraining rules quoted above.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-22-07, 02:36 AM	Has anyone attempted to build a character using Skill retraining that would have been illegal without retraining? I have a suspicion that if you follow the rules of moving ranks, rather than skill points, and don't violate the max ranks by retraining into more ranks than you could have before the level you are gaining, you could probably have built that character legally without retraining. For example, if you take Rog 1 then Ftr 2, moving some of your rogue ranks into fighter skills, then apply your fighter level, I'm betting you could have done the same thing normally by purchasing skills differently or taking Ftr 1 then Rog 2. I don't have the time to do this, but it could be helpful if someone could look into that. I'm not sure if this is what you requested, but... Human cleric 3/monk 2/thief-acrobat x with 14 int Level ... balance .. tumble ... jump ... climb ... diplomacy ... know: religion cleric 1: .... 2 ......... 2 ......... 2 ........ 0 ......... 4 ................. 4 cleric 2: ... .5 ........ .5 ........ .5 ....... .5 ......... 0 ................. 1 cleric 3: ... .5 ........ .5 ........ .5 ....... .5 ......... 0 ................. 1 monk 1: .... 0 ......... 2 ......... 3 ........ 2(+4) .... 0(-4) ........... 0 monk 2: .... 1(+4) ... 3 ......... 2 ........ 1 .......... 0 ................ 0(-4) totals ....... 8 ......... 8 ......... 8 ........ 8 ......... 0 ................. 2 Take a glaive with Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Worship Zuoken with Strength and Celerity Domains. Use skills and retraining to qualify for shadowdancer until retirement. This isn't a character I'd play, but I might if I was looking for a non-standard shadowdancer build (and didn't feel guilty about retraining abuse).
copper_wyrmling 03-22-07, 03:35 AM	B. If, in an attempt to shut down the cheese of (A), one maintains that retraining is stuffed inbetween "select class" and "everything else," then they're afoul of the letter of the retraining rules quoted above. Under the general retraining rules: "Each time your character attains a new level, you can select one and only one of these options." "The decision to retrain must be implemented before any benefits of the newly attained level are applied." Under skills retraining: "The skill to which you add the ranks must be a class skill for one of the character's classes, including the class he is about to gain with his current level increase." You're completely ignoring the first two quotes and taking a very narrow reading of the third quote to claim that retraining happens just before you advance in level - rather than when you "attain a new level", immediately "before any benefits of the newly attained level are applied", and during the "current level increase". When I look at all three quotes together, I come to the conclusion that: (a) You retrain as part of the normal levelling process, which begins with "choose a class" and ends with applying the class features, at which point you are considered to have gained a new class level. (b) You have to retrain before you actually get any benefits of the new level (such as BAB, saves, etc: Britt is evidently reading this to include "maximum number of ranks in any skill", which hadn't occurred to me previously, but it's a defensible reading and I'll adjust my builds to take it into account). (c) Since part of the retraining process depends on what class you're taking at the "current level increase", you need to pick a class before retraining. Once you finish the entire levelling process, you've gained a level in that class. This isn't a conclusion I came to in an attempt to "shut down the cheese" after people started pointing out possible exploits: it seems to me like the most natural and obvious reading of the retraining rules.
Timlagor 03-22-07, 08:44 AM	Britt: there is a major flaw in saying you can't have the max ranks of the new level. You seem to be claiming that the "max ranks" is a "benefit" of the new level. I would call it a "parameter" of the new level, within which you must spend the "benefit" of skill points. If it is indeed a "benefit" then how can you possibly fail to count the "class skill list" (which you explicitly can use in retraining despite retraining before taking any of the "benefits of the new level") as a "benefit"? The only coherent way I can see to read this rule is: * retraining becomes step 2 of the levelling up process * You have access to the new skill list for this purpose * you have access to all the parameters of your new level for the purpose of skills. If you try to put retraining before "select class" then you can have people selecting a different class from the one the "intended" when retraining. If you put retraining after "select class" then I can't see any way in which you could deny them the new maximum ranks. (or any particular reason to do so). Imposing the maximum ranks of the old level does nothing to stop people creating characters that aren't possible without Retraining. (cf Rogue1/Wiz 4/US -requires some cc skill ranks but not nearly so many ...or just look at the example in the PHB2 where the Ranger moves some of his Ranger skills into Disable Device and takes no more Ranger skills at that level)
Timlagor 03-22-07, 08:50 AM	(a) You retrain as part of the normal levelling process, which begins with "choose a class" and ends with applying the class features, at which point you are considered to have gained a new class level. (b) You have to retrain before you actually get any benefits of the new level (such as BAB, saves, etc: Britt is evidently reading this to include "maximum number of ranks in any skill", which hadn't occurred to me previously, but it's a defensible reading and I'll adjust my builds to take it into account). (c) Since part of the retraining process depends on what class you're taking at the "current level increase", you need to pick a class before retraining. Once you finish the entire levelling process, you've gained a level in that class. This isn't a conclusion I came to in an attempt to "shut down the cheese" after people started pointing out possible exploits: it seems to me like the most natural and obvious reading of the retraining rules. I agree with all of this except for "(b)... but it's a defensible reading". It hadn't occurred to me until Mike S presented it and I don't think it's defensible: if the "skill list" is somehow 'not a benefit' then I can't see any way to make the "maximum ranks" a "benefit" and remain coherent. (It's actually not terribly important unless you also insist that retraining somehow happens before "select a class") If the "skill list" is a "benefit" then we have a direct contradiction within the PHB2 rules ...not impossible but it's a contradiction that you only get if you choose this interpretation.
Timlagor 03-22-07, 08:52 AM	Does anyone know about the legality of the following build? 1 Fighter 1 Feats 2 Fighter 2 Feat 3 Barbarian 1 Extra Rage It has been done and I thought it was legal but it does clash with Class features coming after Feats in the levelling up process ..if it's not legal we ought to know about it.
bitznarf 03-22-07, 10:28 AM	Does anyone know about the legality of the following build? 1 Fighter 1 Feats 2 Fighter 2 Feat 3 Barbarian 1 Extra Rage It has been done and I thought it was legal but it does clash with Class features coming after Feats in the levelling up process ..if it's not legal we ought to know about it. This was covered in these 2 messages (among others) http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11846301#post11846301 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11846301#post11846688 The long and the short of it, as I understand it, is that the process happens together, in what ever manner, rather then one step at a time. So yes, that would be entirely legal.
Britt 03-22-07, 10:41 AM	If the "skill list" is a "benefit" then we have a direct contradiction within the PHB2 rules ...not impossible but it's a contradiction that you only get if you choose this interpretation. It is a benefit, but it is a benefit specifically excepted by the PH2 rules. If the rules did not state that you were able to use the skills of your next class, the other rules in Retraining would prevent it. And I can define many more aspects of leveling as a parameter within which you spend or gain benefits. For example: "Your BAB is a parameter, not a benefit, since adding it to your attack rolls is the benefit, and a fighter 3 can't have anything but a BAB of 3. Therefore, your BAB is a parameter that allows you to gain a benefit." BAB is considered by most everyone (educated guess) to be a benefit.
Alpha_Nerd 03-22-07, 10:52 AM	Ok, lets say I'm a Rogue 1/Wizard 1. At second level I retrained 4 ranks from my first level, Rogue, into spellcraft. At third level can I retrain my first level feat into Practiced Spellcaster?
bitznarf 03-22-07, 10:56 AM	Ok, lets say I'm a Rogue 1/Wizard 1. At second level I retrained 4 ranks from my first level, Rogue, into spellcraft. At third level can I retrain my first level feat into Practiced Spellcaster? While most people will probably say 'no' (possibly including myself), I don't see any way within the rules to say for sure that one could not have done that. A better example might be this: Rogue 1 Wizard 1 Wizard 2 Wizard 3 -> retrain 3rd level feat into practiced spellcaster Given that when ranks were put in is not tracked in any way whatsoever, I don't see this as being an illegal build. I can't imagine this ever actually happening, but that is besides the point.
Mommy was an Orc 03-22-07, 11:04 AM	And I can define many more aspects of leveling as a parameter within which you spend or gain benefits. For example: "Your BAB is a parameter, not a benefit, since adding it to your attack rolls is the benefit, and a fighter 3 can't have anything but a BAB of 3. Therefore, your BAB is a parameter that allows you to gain a benefit." BAB is considered by most everyone (educated guess) to be a benefit. BAB is class dependent. If you tell me your character is 6th level, and nothing else, I can't know what your BAB is. I can tell you what your max skill ranks are for class and non-class skills. Max skill ranks is not a class benefit, it is a parameter of being level X.
zigspatty 03-22-07, 11:15 AM	Ok, lets say I'm a Rogue 1/Wizard 1. At second level I retrained 4 ranks from my first level, Rogue, into spellcraft. At third level can I retrain my first level feat into Practiced Spellcaster? IMO, no. As a 1st level rogue, you could not have had 4 ranks in spellcraft because they were a cross-class skill for you. Retraining only allows you to select a different option that would have been legal for you at the time as per PHII, pg 193 If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat. Patty
Timlagor 03-22-07, 12:25 PM	It is a benefit, but it is a benefit specifically excepted by the PH2 rules. If the rules did not state that you were able to use the skills of your next class, the other rules in Retraining would prevent it. Hmm... I suppose you can get away with that but there's nothing to suggest that they think they are making an exception and I would expect it to say it was an exception given that it's so close to the general rule on benefits that (you say) it's being exempted from. It's a very messy interpretation to my mind. And I can define many more aspects of leveling as a parameter within which you spend or gain benefits. For example: "Your BAB is a parameter, not a benefit, since adding it to your attack rolls is the benefit, and a fighter 3 can't have anything but a BAB of 3. Therefore, your BAB is a parameter that allows you to gain a benefit." BAB is considered by most everyone (educated guess) to be a benefit. This makes no sense to me whatsoever: you simply aren't using a meaning of "parameter" that is anything like the definition I know. BAB is something a character has. Max skill ranks are a limit on what a character can get. If you can't see the fundamental difference then I don't know how I could explain it to make it clear.
Timlagor 03-22-07, 12:27 PM	This was covered in these 2 messages (among others) http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11846301#post11846301 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11846301#post11846688 The long and the short of it, as I understand it, is that the process happens together, in what ever manner, rather then one step at a time. So yes, that would be entirely legal. Ok thanks. Must be going blind :/
clannagh 03-22-07, 06:32 PM	BAB is class dependent. If you tell me your character is 6th level, and nothing else, I can't know what your BAB is. I can tell you what your max skill ranks are for class and non-class skills. Max skill ranks is not a class benefit, it is a parameter of being level X. only kinda-sorta its impossible to put an actual number on the max skill ranks without knowing the classes .. as some skills may be totally cross class in any given build and hence have a lower total
MikeJS 03-22-07, 07:18 PM	Under the general retraining rules: "Each time your character attains a new level, you can select one and only one of these options." "The decision to retrain must be implemented before any benefits of the newly attained level are applied." Under skills retraining: "The skill to which you add the ranks must be a class skill for one of the character's classes, including the class he is about to gain with his current level increase." You're completely ignoring the first two quotes and taking a very narrow reading of the third quote to claim that retraining happens just before you advance in level - rather than when you "attain a new level", immediately "before any benefits of the newly attained level are applied", and during the "current level increase". When I look at all three quotes together, I come to the conclusion that: (a) You retrain as part of the normal levelling process, which begins with "choose a class"....There's no reason to assume that "choose class" is, any longer, the first step in leveling, and at least a decent reason, given the grammar of the PHB2, for assuming that retraining comes first. Regardless of what is to be done, a RULING should be made quickly -- I have an important local convention coming up soon!
MikeJS 03-22-07, 07:26 PM	Does anyone know about the legality of the following build? 1 Fighter 1 Feats 2 Fighter 2 Feat 3 Barbarian 1 Extra Rage It has been done and I thought it was legal but it does clash with Class features coming after Feats in the levelling up process ..if it's not legal we ought to know about it.I don't get it -- is the character retraining his second feat from 1st level at 2nd? Assuming the swapped-in feat is legal at 1st (because that's the slot it's going to be in, I'm not seeing anything wrong with it. In fact, AFAIK, every interpretation of retraining that I've seen will permit him to chain feats (e.g., retrain to Dodge, then takes Mobility) since chained feats can be taken simultaneously anyway.
Mommy was an Orc 03-22-07, 08:05 PM	only kinda-sorta its impossible to put an actual number on the max skill ranks without knowing the classes .. as some skills may be totally cross class in any given build and hence have a lower total Which skill you can have max skill ranks in doesn't matter. That's an aspect of what classes you've taken, not what level you happen to be. It doesn't matter what classes you may or may not have taken. If you are a 6th level character, you will not have more ranks than 9 in any skill.
Timlagor 03-23-07, 07:03 AM	I don't get it -- is the character retraining his second feat from 1st level at 2nd? Assuming the swapped-in feat is legal at 1st (because that's the slot it's going to be in, I'm not seeing anything wrong with it. In fact, AFAIK, every interpretation of retraining that I've seen will permit him to chain feats (e.g., retrain to Dodge, then takes Mobility) since chained feats can be taken simultaneously anyway. It had nothing to do with retraining. It was a simple matter of whether you can take Extra Rage with Barbarian 1 (I moved it to 3rd level because 1st level isn't 'levelling up'). The question has been answered: you can because teh 8 steps for levelling up aren't actually done in a particular order according to the PHB (though I'm prety sure they are done in ordeer accoring to some other source) Summary: it's a mess!
chesspiece 03-23-07, 10:58 AM	What happens to retraining benefits if I lose a level? This seems similar to the debates on Wizards keeping their free spells they gained from levelling. Example 1, I advance from Ranger4 to Ranger5 and I retrain my class benefit feat from 2WF to archery. I die and go back to Ranger4. It seems to me that retrained feats, etc should be kept as retrained because they were legal at the time and you've paid for the retraining. - Do I keep the archery class feature or did it change back to 2WF when I lost the level? It seems to me that after relearning a feat or class feature, it should stay as-is. It doesn't seem very fair to lose the TU & GP I spent to retrain. - Can I retrain again when I regain Ranger5? This seems reasonable. Example 2, I advance from Fighter4 to Fighter4/Ranger1 and I retrain 4 skill ranks from Climb into Spot. Through my new level, I take 4 more ranks of Spot to max it out. I die and go back to Fighter4. My Max Ranks for Spot are now 3.5 and it is a cross-class skill. What happens to the 4 Spot ranks I retrained? This could make it possible to circumvent skill point & class skill requirements for prestige class prerequisites. - Are all 4 returned to Climb? This would be similar to losing all level benefits. But then this rule might apply to feats above. - Is one rank returned to Climb (keeping me under my Max Ranks)? - Does 1 rank turn into 1/2 rank? This would also keep me under the cross-class Max Ranks. - Do my 4 ranks turn into 2 ranks? This would be like buying Spot cross-class as a fighter. - Does it matter if I choose Barbarian the next time I go up a level?
Zanzibax 03-23-07, 11:13 AM	Not at all. It in fact confirms that it happens AFTER step 1 because you don't know what class you are going to gain until you complete step one. "about to gain"...suggests it hasn't been chosen yet.
Zanzibax 03-23-07, 11:15 AM	You are a little off there. The retraining happens after you choose your new level, but before you gain the benefits of the level, or make any other level dependant choices. Retraining...from the quote you provided...seems to be after you gain a new level...but before the choice of class is made. This definitely needs a FAQ to fix it.
Zanzibax 03-23-07, 11:31 AM	Except the PH2 rules specifically state that the skills for the level you are about to gain (i.e. you don't have it yet) are available. Which means you don't have the level but get to use the class skills from it. You would have to have the level in order to raise the max ranks, which the PH2 specifically says you don't. That part, at least, is very clear. Yes...and that clear point...also speaks to the issue of qualifying for a PRC you could not qualify for by using the class skills of the PRC and the skill points of your other class levels. I think it's wrong...but I think it's as clear as what you state above.
Zanzibax 03-23-07, 11:34 AM	Problems with both: A. If one wants to maintain that retraining is stuffed inbetween "advance to level N" and "select class", then one will face the uber-cheese of players taking 8 ranks in a prereq skill at 5th and legitimately entering PrCs a level earlier than previously possible. B. If, in an attempt to shut down the cheese of (A), one maintains that retraining is stuffed inbetween "select class" and "everything else," then they're afoul of the letter of the retraining rules quoted above. BINGO!
thorinXXX 03-23-07, 08:29 PM	Assuming that retraining happens before selecting a class (as is strongly implied by the text) then you could not use the new level to calculate max ranks. My original example was a straight fighter entering Pious Templar at level 6. He can do this without retraining because a fighter can have 4 ranks in Know (religion) at level 5. Any PRC with a skill requisite of more than 4 ranks in a particular skill still requires the character to have invested some skill points in it before using this trick. Except for some extremely odd cases, using a PRC's class list to qualify for the class will only save a few skill points. It will not allow characters to enter PRC's any earlier. Can anyone show a viable build that would be able to take a PRC at an earlier level than they could without using a PRC's skill list to retrain?
MikeJS 03-24-07, 04:39 AM	One of the guys on the LG Yahoo group relayed a CustServ reponse in which the answer was that retraining occurred after level-up class selection, but before anything else. Which basically makes sense, not accounting for PHB2 midleading grammar. I'm guessing that's the way it'll be ruled on the next FAQ and/or Circle announcement (if any).
Mattastrophic 03-24-07, 03:57 PM	---
Timlagor 03-25-07, 12:49 PM	Matt you seem to be using the Seeker skill list for qualification. I think Thorin had something more along the lines of Rogue1/Wiz4/unseen seer in mind: with a low enough intelligence getting enough skill points cross-class would be impossible -I haven't worked out what Int you'd need. With retraining though you save a lot of ranks by taking them in Wizard Skills and retraining into the Rogue skills you need. There are loads of examples where saving skill points will let you start with a lower Intelligence that you would otherwise need to qualify for the PrC at the level in question.
King Kashue 03-25-07, 01:51 PM	Matt you seem to be using the Seeker skill list for qualification. I think Thorin had something more along the lines of Rogue1/Wiz4/unseen seer in mind: I thought that too, but Matt cut some of Thorin's quote... Except for some extremely odd cases, using a PRC's class list to qualify for the class will only save a few skill points. It will not allow characters to enter PRC's any earlier. Can anyone show a viable build that would be able to take a PRC at an earlier level than they could without using a PRC's skill list to retrain? He's asking for examples of where using the PrC's skill list makes a difference in how quickly someone can get the PrC vs. not using the new classes skill list.
thorinXXX 03-26-07, 12:02 AM	He's asking for examples of where using the PrC's skill list makes a difference in how quickly someone can get the PrC vs. not using the new classes skill list. Yes. That is what I am asking for. Some people have raised the specter of unbalanced cheese which allows people to take PRC's earlier than intended. I would like to see if those claims are true. P.S. Matt's original example was flawed. You could get to Seeker of the Misty Isle by taking the ravel domain, and then retrain that class feature when you get the bonus domain.
nobodez 03-26-07, 12:24 AM	What happens to retraining benefits if I lose a level? This seems similar to the debates on Wizards keeping their free spells they gained from levelling. Example 1, I advance from Ranger4 to Ranger5 and I retrain my class benefit feat from 2WF to archery. I die and go back to Ranger4. It seems to me that retrained feats, etc should be kept as retrained because they were legal at the time and you've paid for the retraining. - Do I keep the archery class feature or did it change back to 2WF when I lost the level? It seems to me that after relearning a feat or class feature, it should stay as-is. It doesn't seem very fair to lose the TU & GP I spent to retrain. - Can I retrain again when I regain Ranger5? This seems reasonable. The DMG entry for Level Loss (page 296) says nothing about retaining (which is no surprise), but since the change didn't add anything base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities that can be reduced to the new, lower level. Unlike with the skills ranks or feats (quoted below), class features such as a Ranger's Combat Style, as long as the character still has 2 ranger levels, do not change. Example 2, I advance from Fighter4 to Fighter4/Ranger1 and I retrain 4 skill ranks from Climb into Spot. Through my new level, I take 4 more ranks of Spot to max it out. I die and go back to Fighter4. My Max Ranks for Spot are now 3.5 and it is a cross-class skill. What happens to the 4 Spot ranks I retrained? This could make it possible to circumvent skill point & class skill requirements for prestige class prerequisites. - Are all 4 returned to Climb? This would be similar to losing all level benefits. But then this rule might apply to feats above. - Is one rank returned to Climb (keeping me under my Max Ranks)? - Does 1 rank turn into 1/2 rank? This would also keep me under the cross-class Max Ranks. - Do my 4 ranks turn into 2 ranks? This would be like buying Spot cross-class as a fighter. - Does it matter if I choose Barbarian the next time I go up a level? Quoted from the DMG glossary (page 296) Likewise, the character any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). So I'd say that you'd lose the retraining, since it would be "skill ranks" associated with the level.
DroidTrooper 03-26-07, 02:13 AM	Yes. That is what I am asking for. Some people have raised the specter of unbalanced cheese which allows people to take PRC's earlier than intended. I would like to see if those claims are true. P.S. Matt's original example was flawed. You could get to Seeker of the Misty Isle by taking the ravel domain, and then retrain that class feature when you get the bonus domain. Well you can't retrain your diety selection so it does maintain some validity assuming his build did not start with a domain selection possibility of travel. By really anything require 8 skills ranks in a single skill that is a class skill for the prestige class is vulnerable. There are numerous examples in the NoNc classes, but in the open classes you have at least: Highland Stalker - Rogue 7 - retraining ranks into survival Invisible Blade - Mnk5 or Pal5 - retraining ranks into bluff Sacred Fist - Drd6 - retraining ranks in know(religion) Tattooed Monk - Fig5 - retraining into Know (religion) Temple raider of Olimdammra - Fig5 - retraining into search Wildrunner - Brd5 - retraining into survival
Timlagor 03-26-07, 08:58 AM	He's asking for examples of where using the PrC's skill list makes a difference in how quickly someone can get the PrC vs. not using the new classes skill list. Ahh. Ok there are two answers to this: 1) "Saving a few skill points" can be huge. It can save you having to take a level in a different class. It can save you having to invest precious points in Intelligence. It probably won't let you get into a PrC earlier than that otherwise earliest possible entry but might well let you get in earlier than your character could otherwise have done so. 2) You crash into the question of whether the maximum ranks are a "benefit" or not. Personally I can't see any logic to the assertion that you gain a level and then retrain but can only retrain your skills up to the maximum ranks of the previous level but at least some others can. If upon gaining level X you can retrain a skill up to x+3 ranks using the PrC skill list then you can qualify for any PrC who's entry level is limitted by skills one level earlier.
MikeJS 03-26-07, 07:24 PM	"Saving a few skill points" can be huge. It can save you having to take a level in a different class. It can save you having to invest precious points in Intelligence. It probably won't let you get into a PrC earlier than that otherwise earliest possible entry but might well let you get in earlier than your character could otherwise have done so. Here's an example: Your PC is an INT-dumped non-human tank who wants to enter a prestige class requiring 8 ranks in a certain skill, at earliest possible. Previously this would *absolutely* require that he take a level in a class with the necessary skills at 5th level, in order to qualify at 6th. Let's imagine that the skill needed is on the barbarian list but not on the fighter list, and the PC wants Weapon Specialization -- this means his pre-build would, ideally, be barb1/figh4 to enjoy rage from 1st level. However, this means that he cannot qualify because fighter levels won't advance the cross-class skill to 8 ranks at 5th. Likewise, figh4/barb1 doesn't qualify either -- because the PC is only getting 2 to 4 skill points at 5th to add to, at most, 3.5 cross-classed ranks from fighter, again leaving the PC at least half a skill point short of 8 ranks. But with retraining, the PC goes barb1/figh4, takes four ranks in the necessary skill at 1st level, has at least 4 ranks in another "to be sacrified" skill at 4th level, then retrains 4 ranks from "sacrified" skill to necessary skill at 5th level for the 8 needed ranks. He is then qualified, and at 6th, takes a level of the prestige class. Example of this in actuality: Half-elf with 8 INT wants to become an Outcast Champion. OC requires either 8 ranks in Diplomacy or Intimidate. Previously, a barb1/figh4 PC would only be able to enter OC at 6th via the Intimidate route (because that's a fighter skill); with retraining, he can qualify via the more useful Diplomacy route.
bitznarf 03-26-07, 07:29 PM	So whats the problem with this? In order to do this, the PC is required to spend some TU and gp. I really don't understand what the issue is with allowing this exact situation.
JBeauMI 03-28-07, 07:26 AM	The more I read, the more confused I become. Please, explain to me how this works. Level 1 Scout (4 ranks in hide, spot, search) Level 2-4 Warmage (key skills are CC) Level 5 Unseen Seer (need 8 ranks in hide, search and spot)
GorTeX 03-28-07, 07:39 AM	no way to get unseen seer at level 5..as you need the 8 ranks in hide before choosing the class (which is strongly implied, tho not spelled out--also Customer Service has said that you choose your class 1st then retrain). Also, since you have 3 skills that need 8 ranks, using retraining to get them would be a problem...since you can only move 4 ranks around when you do retrain, and you can only retrain once per level. And you can't put 8 ranks in any skill 'til level 5.
Mommy was an Orc 03-28-07, 08:54 AM	Also, since you have 3 skills that need 8 ranks, using retraining to get them would be a problem...since you can only move 4 ranks around when you do retrain, and you can only retrain once per level. And you can't put 8 ranks in any skill 'til level 5. The thing is, you should be able to retrain one of them to 8 at level 5. Then instead of having to cross-class 3 skills(6 skill points = +4 skill points per level, you only have to retrain 2 skill(4 skill points = +2 skill points per level - much more friendly...)
thorinXXX 03-28-07, 03:22 PM	no way to get unseen seer at level 5..as you need the 8 ranks in hide before choosing the class (which is strongly implied, tho not spelled out--also Customer Service has said that you choose your class 1st then retrain). Who cares what Customer Service says, they are usually as useful as screen doors in an airlock. They are often contraditory and often flat out wrong. More importantly, they are not a binding source for LG.
JBeauMI 03-28-07, 06:27 PM	As I understand it, since hide, search and spot are class skills for a Scout, I can retrain skill points into those class skills at any time. Is there any disagreement? Regardless. my character cannot fulfill the requirements for Unseen Seer until level 7, unless I retrain at least 2 skill points at level 4 and take a level of skill monkey at level 5 (e.g., Scout 2 or Beguiler 1).
GorTeX 03-29-07, 12:09 AM	yes..but only 4 ranks per retraining..which you can only do once per level up
GorTeX 03-29-07, 12:10 AM	Who cares what Customer Service says, they are usually as useful as screen doors in an airlock. They are often contraditory and often flat out wrong. More importantly, they are not a binding source for LG. so, your whole arguement is that 'Sometimes Customer Service is flat out wrong, so we should never, ever, not in a million years, ever listen to what they have to say on any subject what-so-ever." hmmm...
thorinXXX 03-29-07, 03:59 PM	so, your whole arguement is that 'Sometimes Customer Service is flat out wrong, so we should never, ever, not in a million years, ever listen to what they have to say on any subject what-so-ever." hmmm... Listen all you want, just don't quote them as a rules source until the LGCS lists them as one. Given the frequency of contradictory answers and errors, you are only a little better of than asking some random guy on the street for answers.
Fleetfang 03-29-07, 05:38 PM	Just posted by Britt in the LG Questions and Answers thread: Skill Retraining for LG clarification: Ok, I have received permission to make the following clarification for Skill Retraining. This is an LG ruling and will be in the next Dispel Confusion. 1. Skill ranks are capped by your old level, not your new level. If you are leveling from 5 to 6, your max ranks during retraining is 8, not 9. 2. You must be able to qualify for a PrC before choosing that PrC. Retraining is, effectively, step 1.5 in the leveling process. You choose a class for which you qualify as your next level, then proceed to Retraining before gaining ANY benefits of the new level or class except for the class skill list of the new class. Awesome, Circle guys. Thank you.
bitznarf 03-29-07, 05:47 PM	2. You must be able to qualify for a PrC before choosing that PrC. Retraining is, effectively, step 1.5 in the leveling process. You choose a class for which you qualify as your next level, then proceed to Retraining before gaining ANY benefits of the new level or class except for the class skill list of the new class. Well, I personally think that the retraining rules do allow a character to retrain a feat in between levels 5 and 6 for example to qualify for a PrC at 6. That being said, I'm glad that table variation on this should be minimal after this ruling.
Timlagor 04-02-07, 01:32 PM	Skill ranks campped by old level makes no sense to me at all but at least it's clear.
jstorrie 04-02-07, 01:46 PM	Ok, lets say I'm a Rogue 1/Wizard 1. At second level I retrained 4 ranks from my first level, Rogue, into spellcraft. At third level can I retrain my first level feat into Practiced Spellcaster? No, because you didn't have four ranks in Spellcraft when you took your first level feat.
Zanzibax 04-02-07, 03:13 PM	No, because you didn't have four ranks in Spellcraft when you took your first level feat. Yes...because he does on re-training.
Mommy was an Orc 04-02-07, 03:22 PM	Yes...because he does on re-training. No, he doesn't. His retraining happened when he was 2nd level, but before his max skill ranks changed. At 1st level, he didn't have 4 ranks in Spellcraft and there is no legal way that he could have had 4 ranks in Spellcraft.
chesspiece 04-02-07, 03:33 PM	Skill ranks campped by old level makes no sense to me at all but at least it's clear. It confused me for a while too. But now I think of it as an opportunity to reassign old synapses (skill points) to any of your current interests - including the class you've been training for (taking this level). Since you're reassigning old knowledge, you're doing it without the benefit of your new level - so you still use the old level cap on skill ranks. Since you're "retroactively assumed" to have been studying for your new class, they make an exception and those class skills are made available. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html
Zanzibax 04-02-07, 03:51 PM	No, he doesn't. His retraining happened when he was 2nd level, but before his max skill ranks changed. At 1st level, he didn't have 4 ranks in Spellcraft and there is no legal way that he could have had 4 ranks in Spellcraft. He would need to have 8 points to spend...it's cross-classed for a rogue...but his maximum number of ranks is altered because it *is* a class skill for his 2nd level class...which alters the maximum ranks for cross-classed skills. He could have had 4 ranks in Spellcraft by that method. It's step 1.5...retraining...not step 2. Oh...I see...not for what I was thinking...but because of this: yes..but only 4 ranks per retraining..which you can only do once per level up Ok...nevermind Mommy's Orc. I see it is limited to 4 ranks...once per level...and he needs 8 skill points to get to...but then the wording say ranks and not skill points :confused: The maximum ranks he's limited to is 4 ranks re-training a 1 rogue/ 1 wizard...not 2...
Zanzibax 04-02-07, 03:58 PM	...
JBeauMI 04-02-07, 07:01 PM	It confused me for a while too. But now I think of it as an opportunity to reassign old synapses (skill points) to any of your current interests - including the class you've been training for (taking this level). But then there is this character specific chronological consistency requirement that demands that the character does not simply know 5 feats, there are 3 first level feats, 1 second level feat and 1 third level feat. You cannot retrain the 3rd level feat into something that is required for a 1st or 2nd level feat. You are not the sum of your parts; all parts are separate and fixed in a past point in time. It's just weird.