Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stevepearce 02-06-06, 11:41 PM	I'd like to raise a suggestion about the Intro mods. Firstly I think them a great idea and a positive aid in getting new players into LG. I understand presently that they are designed and limited to 1st level characters only. I understand the reasoning for this but would offer two small changes. My motivation is two-fold. one is to make the intro mods work under the same rules as all other LG mods. The second is to give greater opportunities to lower level charters to play them. The first is consider them applicable to APL 1 rather than for 1st level characters only. Presently 6 first level characters can play an intro mod even though they are officially APL 2. However 3 1st level and 1 2nd level character would be an APL 1 party and weaker than the party of six characters yet they are not allowed to play the mod. Hence my first suggestion is to make intro mods APL 1 rather than first level chars only. Thus allowing a wider variety of players to play them as well as giving some more play opportunities for level 2 characters. The second more provocative suggestion is to permit APL 2 parties to play down to APL 1 for these mods. The system permits characters to be over level for a mod at high level (an APL 10 party can play a mod that goes to max of APL 8 and gain full XP). Why do we not allow it between APLs 1 and 2? I suspect that the counter argument concerns the threat level of the intro mods but in all honesty I would like most intro mods to err on the side of being easy rather than being hard. Just an idea, Steve
Bob_the_Theurge 02-07-06, 09:01 AM	I'd like to raise a suggestion about the Intro mods. Firstly I think them a great idea and a positive aid in getting new players into LG. I understand presently that they are designed and limited to 1st level characters only. I understand the reasoning for this but would offer two small changes. My motivation is two-fold. one is to make the intro mods work under the same rules as all other LG mods. The second is to give greater opportunities to lower level charters to play them. The first is consider them applicable to APL 1 rather than for 1st level characters only. Presently 6 first level characters can play an intro mod even though they are officially APL 2. However 3 1st level and 1 2nd level character would be an APL 1 party and weaker than the party of six characters yet they are not allowed to play the mod. Hence my first suggestion is to make intro mods APL 1 rather than first level chars only. Thus allowing a wider variety of players to play them as well as giving some more play opportunities for level 2 characters. The second more provocative suggestion is to permit APL 2 parties to play down to APL 1 for these mods. The system permits characters to be over level for a mod at high level (an APL 10 party can play a mod that goes to max of APL 8 and gain full XP). Why do we not allow it between APLs 1 and 2? I suspect that the counter argument concerns the threat level of the intro mods but in all honesty I would like most intro mods to err on the side of being easy rather than being hard. Just an idea, Steve I'd have no problem with this. Some of us don't need to have 6-7 characters right now, and new intros are always available. Plus, intros are getting scarier. There have been assassin vines and Huge Monstrous Centipedes in ours.
Timlagor 02-07-06, 10:54 AM	I'd have no problem with this. Some of us don't need to have 6-7 characters right now, and new intros are always available. Plus, intros are getting scarier. There have been assassin vines and Huge Monstrous Centipedes in ours. That sounds very bad. As someone who has killed multiple PCs in an almost TPK Intro (with experienced players), I do feel that DMs shouldn't (gratuitously) be put in the position of killing off the characters of new players or 'fudging' rolls/rules to keep them alive.
Simpi 02-07-06, 11:22 AM	That sounds very bad. As someone who has killed multiple PCs in an almost TPK Intro (with experienced players), I do feel that DMs shouldn't (gratuitously) be put in the position of killing off the characters of new players or 'fudging' rolls/rules to keep them alive. That is quite true. My first intro modules were quite hard and resulted in same thing (my apologies to anyone who played them). These days, I do intro modules according to following guideline: 1) No encounter is higher than EL3 2) Not-so-lethal trap and enviromental challenges are also ELs 3) Sticking to MM monsters and NPC levels should be priority. 4) Hardness over 5 in anything is right out. Low Level constructs are still appropriate as their hit rolls and damage are quite lousy. 5) Having alternative ways to bypass encounters is always good. The APL1 option has the problem that by rules such a module could offer 180+45xp. But even in current rules, there is nothing that forces author to actually use all encounters. Still, giving the intro option for 2nd level characters (and them only) might not be a bad idea. S.H, the guy from Naerie
Madfox11 02-07-06, 11:52 AM	1) No encounter is higher than EL3 2) Not-so-lethal trap and enviromental challenges are also ELs 3) Sticking to MM monsters and NPC levels should be priority. 4) Hardness over 5 in anything is right out. Low Level constructs are still appropriate as their hit rolls and damage are quite lousy. 5) Having alternative ways to bypass encounters is always good. You do realize that assassin vines and shadows do fullfill all these requirements? ;) I would advice people against using these monsters in an Introductionary module though. You might want to add: 6) A monster should not be able to kill a fully healed PC in 1 hit (an assassin vine for example is very likely to deal 16 to 26 damage in 1 hit - slam attack combined with constrict). 7) A monster should not be incorporeal.
Britt 02-07-06, 12:02 PM	We had an assassin vine in a year 3 module and it was one of the deadlier encounters. However, we setup the encounter so you could see the a.vine about 60' away, so that ameliorated things somewhat.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-07-06, 12:20 PM	We had an assassin vine in a year 3 module and it was one of the deadlier encounters. However, we setup the encounter so you could see the a.vine about 60' away, so that ameliorated things somewhat. True possibly, IF it was spotted. Now about that Huge Monstrous Centipede? I realize technically speaking it wasn't "that bad" (CR 2). But I have personal experience with it, both being on the end of its bite and killing a level 1 character when running the intro later. This monster has 33 HP's, a to-hit of +5, and 2d6+4 damage. 10 foot reach. At a bare minimum, it's getting the chance to attack 3-4 times in the module - once with attack of opportunity on someone or else slapping them as they try to get close to it by taking 5-foot steps, and three more before it dies. At first level armor classes, if it rolls a 20, it will almost certainly back it up. So, I critted a player on that 1 in 5 chance. Rolled a little above average on the dice (25 points). Average damage for one attack is 11 damage. Average crit is 22. I also just "rolled well" on another normal hit, putting another character unconscious with 14 points of damage. With a 22-point hit, a level 1 Barbarian with 16 Constitution is at -7 HP. My hit would have killed even that Barbarian. Within CR? Perhaps. Appropriate for an intro module? I'm not so sure.
Simpi 02-07-06, 12:38 PM	Within CR? Perhaps. Appropriate for an intro module? I'm not so sure. Not really and should fall under authors common sense. Large Monstrous Centipede (or even two) is appropriate in my opinion as it has lousy to hit roll and average damage is 5-6 pts per hit, which is not too much even for an introduction party. Madfox: Good suggestions but both are something that should be obvious for people using common sense. Prisoners of the Calling Mines excluded, i've not seen an incorporeal undead in intro modules (though couple in APL2 modules). Likewise, orc barbarians with greataxes are not very nice. I add one more: 8) Swarms composed of diminutive creatures (bats, spiders, etc.) should not be used in intro module. S.H, the guy from Naerie
Bob_the_Theurge 02-07-06, 12:53 PM	Not really and should fall under authors common sense. Large Monstrous Centipede (or even two) is appropriate in my opinion as it has lousy to hit roll and average damage is 5-6 pts per hit, which is not too much even for an introduction party. Madfox: Good suggestions but both are something that should be obvious for people using common sense. Prisoners of the Calling Mines excluded, i've not seen an incorporeal undead in intro modules (though couple in APL2 modules). Likewise, orc barbarians with greataxes are not very nice. I add one more: 8) Swarms composed of diminutive creatures (bats, spiders, etc.) should not be used in intro module. S.H, the guy from Naerie Oddly enough, two Large Monstrous Centipedes according to the rules is a CR 3 encounter. However, a pair of LMC's is only 26 HP, AC of 14, two attacks per round at a +3 to-hit bonus, and only 1d8+1 damage. Even on a crit, unlikely to kill a character. Even better, they tend to die quick; at 13 HP apiece, a party concentrating on them kills one quickly. A single Huge Monstrous centipede has double the damage potential, +5 to hit rather than +3, twice the reach, 2 better AC, and an extra 7 hitpoints - all for one less CR.
Simpi 02-07-06, 01:11 PM	Oddly enough, two Large Monstrous Centipedes according to the rules is a CR 3 encounter. However, a pair of LMC's is only 26 HP, AC of 14, two attacks per round at a +3 to-hit bonus, and only 1d8+1 damage. Even on a crit, unlikely to kill a character. Even better, they tend to die quick; at 13 HP apiece, a party concentrating on them kills one quickly. A single Huge Monstrous centipede has double the damage potential, +5 to hit rather than +3, twice the reach, 2 better AC, and an extra 7 hitpoints - all for one less CR. Fully aware of CR3 on two. But nobody has argued that all CRs in monster manual are correct or even accurate or all the calculations make sense. Issues have been raised about Hill Giant and Tendriculous. those CRs however are something we need to live with :D S.H, the guy from Naerie
Timlagor 02-07-06, 01:21 PM	Now about that Huge Monstrous Centipede? This monster has 33 HP's, a to-hit of +5, and 2d6+4 damage. 10 foot reach. At a bare minimum, it's getting the chance to attack 3-4 times in the module - once with attack of opportunity on someone or else slapping them as they try to get close to it by taking 5-foot steps, and three more before it dies. At first level armor classes, if it rolls a 20, it will almost certainly back it up. You didn't mention the critical fact that it has a 40' speed. Otherwise they could just run around peppering it with arrows. BTW the module I was referring to was Prisoners of the Calling Mines and it was the Cloakers that did in half the 4-player party. The Allip was turned at the final (3rd? 4th?) attempt on a natural 20 and the survivors just managed to escape before it returned. (huzzah for tying whips together! -done in every running I'm aware of)
Simpi 02-07-06, 02:03 PM	BTW the module I was referring to was Prisoners of the Calling Mines and it was the Cloakers that did in half the 4-player party. The Allip was turned at the final (3rd? 4th?) attempt on a natural 20 and the survivors just managed to escape before it returned. (huzzah for tying whips together! -done in every running I'm aware of) Actually they were Darkmantles. It's 'follow-up' TSS4-04 did have cloakers as one possible encounter, depending what route PCs took. S.H, the guy from Naerie
Britt 02-07-06, 02:30 PM	True possibly, IF it was spotted. Since spotting it was written into the box text as it was in the middle of eating a wild pig, it would be hard to NOT spot it :) Now about that Huge Monstrous Centipede? I realize technically speaking it wasn't "that bad" (CR 2). But I have personal experience with it, both being on the end of its bite and killing a level 1 character when running the intro later. That wasn't in a BK intro was it? If so, I never saw it. Sounds inappropriate for an intro mod, but I would have to think about it some more.
Bob_the_Theurge 02-07-06, 02:53 PM	You didn't mention the critical fact that it has a 40' speed. Otherwise they could just run around peppering it with arrows. When something's got 10' reach, 40' speed is rather redundant; it could simply charge the archers, or double-move to them even at 30' speed, and they couldn't get away.
Munkwunk 02-07-06, 03:09 PM	I've encountered shadow-templated Goblins in Intro mods before, with "Shadow Meld" and a nice 50% miss chance. That lone Goblin was capable of taking down an inexperienced party. Fromt he same region, I hear tell that there are more Shadow-templated creatures in an Intro, and this time with even higher ELs. Intro modules should be written to introduce new players to D&D and/or Living Greyhawk. Killing off first level characters should *never* be the priority and, and giving them ultra-difficult challenges shouldn't be, either. Intro mods should be fun, not deadly. I agree that allowing 2nd level players in to Intro modules would be a nice idea. It has the bad side effect of making it a liiiittle more difficult for authors to plan (since they now have to consider that players might be *either* 1st or 2nd level) but this shouldn't change things too much. Authors should note that, especially at very low levels, the EL+2 guideline should *not*, in my opinion, be used. CR 3 creatures are, in most cases, completely lethal to 1st-level characters. An Ogre, for instance, can kill most kinds of 1st level adventurers in one hit. APL "1" adventures should be limited to CRs no higher than 2, and discretion should still bea dvised. Anything with a miss chance should be *heavily* considered before including it in an Intro. This includes incorporeal undead, such as Allips (CR 2, but difficult for 1st level characters to hit, because they don't have magic weapons at that point). Anything with DR or Hardness of 5 or more should be heavily considered. A 16-STR Figter or Barbarian wielding a greataxe can deal 1d12+4 damage, meaning he's only hurting these creatures for as much damage as he can roll on the dice. He is the *strong* character in the party. A Rogue at 1st level is likely to deal 1d6+1d6 damage, provided he's able to sneaka ttack the creature. That meanst he rogue has to roll well to overcome DR and won't be able to bypass Hardness by more than 1 or 2 points (since his sneak attack won't affect most things that have hardness). A monster's damage output should definitely be considered. Anything more than 1d8+STR is probably going to be a bit much (for natural attacks, and even for Orcs with Greataxes). The median hit dice for players is d8, meaning 8 hit points is probably a fairly average number. Anything that can deal too much more than that *consistantly* in a single blow (monsters with average damage values of 8+) should probably not be invited to the module. The risk of death is always very real, but killing off new players before they reach 3rd or 4th level is really just rude, if the encounters were designed to be killer. You can't account for things that just go horribly wrong, but I definitely authors should consider *not* making exceptionally difficult encounters until APL 6+.
Simpi 02-07-06, 03:21 PM	Authors should note that, especially at very low levels, the EL+2 guideline should *not*, in my opinion, be used. CR 3 creatures are, in most cases, completely lethal to 1st-level characters. An Ogre, for instance, can kill most kinds of 1st level adventurers in one hit. That is if authors use CR3 creatures. CR 3 encounter can also be 5 regular goblins and one 2nd level warrior goblin, and I don't think anyone would call that an unreasonable fight. S.H, the guy from Naerie
Madfox11 02-07-06, 03:55 PM	Since spotting it was written into the box text as it was in the middle of eating a wild pig, it would be hard to NOT spot it :) O I agree... assassin vines are so slow that if there is a 100% guarantee to spot it in times there is no problem as long as even new players are made aware how deadly such a vine is. Mind you, you better print it in bold face in several different places. You have no idea how many DMs missed the fact in one of my adventures that a NPC informed the PCs about the supernatural fear ability of an opponent, or that the ghost would NOT possess wizards or clerics. Turned an other wise slightly challenging encounter into a really deadly one and that for a high APL table filled with experienced players :rolleyes:
thorinXXX 02-08-06, 12:43 PM	Intro mods should also avoid having a distinct possibility of serious penalties (TU's, gold, removal from campaign, etc.) All of one year's intro mods for a certain region had a very good chance of the PC's ending up in jail or being wanted; unable to play in that region. "Welcome to Keoland, here's your cell." Thorin
Simpi 02-08-06, 12:57 PM	Intro mods should also avoid having a distinct possibility of serious penalties (TU's, gold, removal from campaign, etc.) All of one year's intro mods for a certain region had a very good chance of the PC's ending up in jail or being wanted; unable to play in that region. "Welcome to Keoland, here's your cell." Thorin I don't see anything wrong with reasonable TU penalties. After all, if region is something that actually has laws and good enough law enforcement (like ours) and modules have means to slap PCs who act like idiots, then better to show it right from the start. Welcome to Naerie. First night here and already wanted to murder. Did the though ever cross your mind that the two fishermen walking past the place you guard could just been actual fishermen and not thugs sent to kill you? S.H, the guy from Naerie
JohnduBois 02-08-06, 01:02 PM	I'm really putting myself on the line here, as my intro mod (and first mod) became available yesterday (and I probably did something I shouldn't), but I'll chime in. Additional rules: 1. No spriggans. 2. Putting in things with hardness, DR 10/magic, or whatever is ok... IF you provide PCs with adamantine on loan or scrolls of Magic Weapon (both arcane and divine). 3. Roleplaying ways out. 4. Something that makes the mod unique to your region or involve regional flavor. For example, Ket should have something about lethal damage there, Furyondy should mention the war with Iuz, Veluna should involve the Church of Rao, etc.... in all intro mods in some way. I fully expect I will have more to add on this after I DM my newly-published intro a couple times.
Gyro_LC 02-08-06, 01:43 PM	Rule for intro mod: Don't tell the PCs one thing and then do another. Here's an example. I was TPKed in an intro mod. We were looking for some items underwater and were given potions of water breathing. Part of receiving the job was a brief about how slashing weapons do half damage underwater. Fine, we all took spears instead, not wanting to carry the extra weapon weight while swimming. Of course, we encountered three zombies that have DR 5/slashing. We were only able to make it out alive by dropping a zombie with cure light wounds and using its battle axe on the other ones. Our resources were completely depleted and we were wiped out in the next encounter with four sharks.
JohnduBois 02-08-06, 02:14 PM	I would say that using protagonist NPC's to mislead the PCs in a way that would encourage them to make extremely poor choices is a no-no in any module. Feeling like the module directed you to a deadly choice reduces fun for everyone involved.
thorinXXX 02-09-06, 11:48 AM	I don't see anything wrong with reasonable TU penalties. After all, if region is something that actually has laws and good enough law enforcement (like ours) and modules have means to slap PCs who act like idiots, then better to show it right from the start. Welcome to Naerie. First night here and already wanted to murder. Did the though ever cross your mind that the two fishermen walking past the place you guard could just been actual fishermen and not thugs sent to kill you? S.H, the guy from Naerie I have no problem with slapping down idiots, but that was never the case. In one mod you had to choose one of two people to support. No matter which you chose, the other one got you thrown in jail. The only thing on the AR's was jail time, being hunted in that province, or being wanted in the entire kingdom. These are not good introductions to LG. If those were my first exposure to LG I never would have played again. Thorin
Timlagor 02-09-06, 04:29 PM	I would say that using protagonist NPC's to mislead the PCs in a way that would encourage them to make extremely poor choices is a no-no in any module. Feeling like the module directed you to a deadly choice reduces fun for everyone involved. I reckon it's fair game..but not in an Intro!
stevepearce 02-11-06, 06:01 PM	I think the comments have strayed a little from my original premise. Much of what has been said has really been about some poor writing practices for Intro mods. Intro mods with priests with death touch (to highlight a particularly atrocious example I know of) should be fixed by adventure writing guidelines or simply just good editing from the relevant Triad. My desire is only to try and rationalize Intro mods. Circle have no problem with a 10th level character playing alongside 5 other 8th level and allowing them to play at APL 8. However i can't play my 2nd level character alongside three 1st level characters in an intro mod. I have to create a brand new character (something that is wearing thin if you already have 3 or 4 characters). Or look for something else to play. I don't believe the second level character is that unbalancing in comparison with the 10th playing at APL 8. My proposal would firstly rationalize the APL system, secondly provide a few more adventures for low level characters to play.
Monkey76 02-13-06, 09:43 AM	Mr. Pearce, Your counsel is sound. I have two characters and there are five regional intros I have not played. I would like to play some or all of these modules, but cannot without creating two more 1st level PCs. I do not want four characters, three of which are 2nd level, just so I can play a few intro modules. At first serious thought, I can see two benefits to your suggestions. First, allowing 2nd level PCs would expand the utility of Intro modules by allowing more people to play. The modules would be played by a larger number in the gaming community. This would make it easier to form tables, giving new gamers more opportunities to get involved. Second, Intro modules would serve a greater role in cultivating developed, significant PCs. A developed PC is more interesting and elicits more loyalty to LG than a stack of 1st level PCs. I apologize for not commenting sooner. Paul
Lomiat 02-13-06, 07:25 PM	While I agree that intro mods should be written for players to have fun, I believe this thread has thus far missed a few points: 1) Not all 1st-level PCs or parties are alike. At 1st-level, besides stat and class choices, characters are heavily distinguished by their wealth. Most characters should be able to afford masterwork weapons after only 1 adventure; that +1 to hit might not be much, but it means your power attacking fighter or barbarian can translate that bonus immediately into +2 damage per swing. Other early purchases may include scrolls that easily double a cleric's healing capacity or a familiar that suddenly provides the party with the spot-check equivalent of a 6th-level scout. Additionally, party balance is huge at lower levels. First-level characters are ALWAYS teetering on the brink of death. No one is likely to have more than 17 hit points; and more than 15 is probably rare enough. Wizards and sorcerors, meanwhile, are hovering at around 16 hit points from -10. Players have to learn to do more with their characters than simply get into bashing contests with big bad monsters. I wrote one intro mod for the Shield Lands that offers several extremely challenging encounters for most 1st-level parties, but one party had the right balance of hitters, rogues, clerics, and, most importantly in this module, arcane casters that they simply walked through the encounters that had nearly dropped entire parties. 2) What one table considers an unreasonably, unfair, unjustified, unfriendly, and un-intro mod encounter, another might consider "challenging." I believe, as others have mentioned, that intro mods--along with being fun--are meant to serve as instructional tools. If an author can find a way to write an encounter so that the PCs are somewhat "coached" through it, it may be possible to write in some really tough adversaries so that the PCs may astonish themselves with their success. 3) Finally, as I believe ought to be the case with more adventures, in general, intro mods can "reward" good decision making and roleplaying and "punish" bad decision making and roleplaying. Got a table full of PCs who just want to walk into an ambush? Let them. That kind of thinking is pure metagaming. Any individual who thought that way in real life would get the same butt-kicking those PCs OUGHT to get but too rarely do. I've got an intro mod that allows PCs to walk themselves into an EL 5 encounter. Certainly, they can avoid it and face much weaker encounters, but I've DMed a number of parties that wanted just to run into the big encounter all at once, yet those parties have survived. Among other things, that suggests the EL number itself is no true judge of how lethal an encounter can be. 4) Finally, it all comes down to how the DM handles the encounter. Not too many monsters at CRs 2 to 3 are experienced supergenius masterminds, yet too many judges want to play every monster for every HP they can possibly tear out of some PC's hide. DMs have to choose simply how lethal they want to be with an encounter BEFORE they run the encounter, and, meanwhile, they might want to consider whether they want to "roleplay" it or just devolve into tactics and dice rolling.
Timlagor 02-13-06, 08:29 PM	I find that combats take long enough without adding roleplaying and much description. I had ift brought home to me the other day just how much variation there is in starting characters. One Woodelf (18Str, 16 Dex) Barbarian with a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes can do hideous things to even the most killer of Intro modules (provided they don't have darkmantles...) while a party with more moderate fighters had serious trouble. The one difference between the two sessions that I didn't mention was the dice rolls. Dice rolls make a HUGE difference (..but then a max-damage critical will make a serious dent at any APL). One way that Intros can be buffered against varied parties is to give the party an NPC (probably a Cleric) to help them. The DM can keep the NPC in the background if they're not needed. It's also essential to give casters a chance to rest between combats: a caster with no spells is rarely much fun.
redgamer 02-13-06, 09:26 PM	I think its essential that you don't always get time to rest between combats. Eventually having a wizard with top level spells in every combat means fighters are useless. The core books suggest parties prepare for up to 5 combats a day. LG never comes close to that. The variation between characters only gets bigger as level goes up. First level bard may have +3 to hit and 1st level fighter may have +6 to hit at most. At sixth lvl the bard/rouge has at most +7 to hit and the fighter likely has + 11 or more.
Timlagor 02-14-06, 12:51 AM	I'm only talking about Intro mods. Particularly ones open only to brand new characters.
redgamer 02-14-06, 01:05 AM	There is only one intro thats only open to brand new players. I mention variability because you brought it up. Variability at its smallest in an intro mod.
pedr 02-14-06, 01:22 AM	^^ That's not actually true. In Onnwal the only currently available intro module is for brand new characters only (all the other intros having been retired due to a change in overall plotlines). In the previous batch of three, one was for brand new characters only, and in Year 3 there was a meta-regional intro mod which I believe was only for brand new characters. Unless I'm misunderstanding your point?
Timlagor 02-14-06, 01:24 AM	I know of a regional and a metaregional that expired last year. There's another such regional this year. I'm sure there are others elsewhere. Variation can certainly be greater at higher levels but I was surprised at just how great that variation can still be. Interestingly, with 'optimised' builds the variation is in many ways greater at very low levels before the more complex plans get off the ground. E.G. Str18, Dex16 Wood Elf Barb with Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon. They will get better with levels but most of their offensive power is right there at level 1. The Halfling Outrider is going to take rather longer to get going. Both will be dealing massive damage in later levels.
scottishswash91 02-14-06, 02:09 AM	I played my first LG intro mod(Veluna region) recently and a little bit more backround into regional affairs would have been helpful. Overall as an expirienced player the intro seemed a little too simple. It could have been more challenging. I had not played D & D in over 8 years and I really was not challenged as a player. The events second mod was much more challenging and enjoyable even though I almost lost my character.
paigeoliver 02-14-06, 03:19 AM	I'll say you can have a lot of variation in an intro mod. I recently played one of them using a horse calvalry type character, and the module was set outdoors. I never did less than 30 damage with any single attack. Which is more than my 5th level fighter/Barbarian has ever done (I think my record with that character is only in the high teens). Then I have a 4th level fighter/Marshall who has never killed ANYTHING.
Timlagor 02-14-06, 12:00 PM	I played my first LG intro mod(Veluna region) recently and a little bit more backround into regional affairs would have been helpful. Overall as an experienced player the intro seemed a little too simple. It could have been more challenging. I had not played D & D in over 8 years and I really was not challenged as a player. The events second mod was much more challenging and enjoyable even though I almost lost my character. Are you talking about the toughness of the combats or the roleplaying and story of the module? I would rather the Intros were aimed at the *inexperienced*.
redgamer 02-14-06, 03:25 PM	Thanks Pedr. I didn't realize there were still regional new player only intros. I thought this was no longer true. When I was a new player I found the intros fluffy and illogical (although the judge described the mod such beforehand so I was biased) They were simple and unengaging. Fortunately I was at a con with my friend and girlfriend so I aslo played the regionals and cores. We can't know what knew players want in an intro because even if they knew themselves why would they tell us. Once players have played the intro they are no longer new players. The best we can do is gather as much empirical evidence as possible, pass it on to authers. A mod of course can be good or bad irreggardless of if its easy or hard.
Lomiat 02-16-06, 12:06 PM	A mod of course can be good or bad irreggardless of if its easy or hard. That's an important truth. Nonetheless, one of the advantages of writing challenging (read: very difficult) encounters into adventures, even intro mods, is that they allow players time to participate in the ebb and flow of combat, and by that, I mean all the players. I've played in enough APL8+ mods where combats haven't lasted even a full round. Essentially, players eager to participate, but who roll bad (or sometimes even only slightly-above-average) initiatives, get cheated out of the "heroic experience." They're just tag-alongs. I'm not for 1st-level TPKs (although it hurts less then than later), but I'm all for authors writing into mods with difficult combats that DMs can choose to tone down (reducing strategy, making certain decisions) rather than writing simplistic encounters that DMs would have to illegally boost just to make a single PC's pulse race. I wrote a SHL intro mod with which I "could have" (but didn't) TPK both of the first two parties to play through it, but they survived and, by the end, told me it was their favorite intro to date--not necessarily because of the combat, but because of the story and unity with its combats. (Meanwhile, I ran a third group through it, and all the big mean monsters got blicked by some keen spellcasting.)