Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alpha_Nerd 11-13-06, 10:27 AM	For a Sacred fist it states that he vows not to use any kind of weapon. Now, would a gauntlet be considered a weapon. I mean, it acts like a weapon for many purposes, but it treated as if unarmed for damage and flurry.
Japangirl 11-13-06, 01:55 PM	I'm pretty sure it's a weapon, just one you can use with unarmed attacks. Sorry.
Jay_Ibero_911 11-13-06, 11:09 PM	Technically with a guantlet you are still considered unarmed. A SPIKED gauntlet on the other hand is a specific weapon.
JJeff 11-14-06, 01:08 AM	Actually, techinically it is a Simple weapon that you can atack with as though it is an unarmed strike. So I would say it is a weapon. Just don't start on how the unarmed attack is also a weapon....
trollbill 11-14-06, 09:59 AM	Well, I don't see much point in using them since they do less damage than a monk's unarmed strike. The only reason I can see to use them is so that you can put enhancements on them. But if you do that, then obviously your character is looking at them as a weapon, and if that's the case, then you'd be knowingly violating the Sacred Fist's code of conduct.
clik_ml 11-15-06, 03:57 PM	Well, I don't see much point in using them since they do less damage than a monk's unarmed strike. The only reason I can see to use them is so that you can put enhancements on them. The damage is actually debatable. You are likely to expect some table variation as to whether they are simply a means of turning normal unarmed attacks into lethal damage unarmed attacks. And whether gauntlets count as separate weapons is again something that will give random table variation. Unless there is an official FAQ on it, then things don't look good for a sacred fist or monk who wants to use gauntlets consistently.
Jay_Ibero_911 11-15-06, 10:00 PM	Actually, techinically it is a Simple weapon that you can atack with as though it is an unarmed strike. So I would say it is a weapon. Just don't start on how the unarmed attack is also a weapon.... But it's also part of armor. Then there are shields, which you can bash with if you choose. So should a sacred fist be banned from carrying a shield because it COULD be used as a weapon?
DuctShuiTengu 11-15-06, 10:51 PM	But it's also part of armor. Then there are shields, which you can bash with if you choose. So should a sacred fist be banned from carrying a shield because it COULD be used as a weapon? While this isn't official, I'd rule as follows: Unless the shield has been enhanced (spiked shield, the bashing enhancement, or any magical weapon enhancements) as a weapon, it doesn't count as one for purposes of carrying a weapon and thus isn't a violation. Same with gauntlets. Having gauntlets as part of your armor is okay, but having +1 flaming gauntlets isn't. However, I'd say that bashing someone with your shield does count as using a weapon, and thus is a violation. Not sure how to apply that bit with gauntlets though. But as click_ml said, expect table variation.
Japangirl 11-16-06, 01:01 AM	Most Sacred Fists are monks, so I wouldn't worry too much about them carrying shields most of the time.
trollbill 11-16-06, 09:46 AM	Most Sacred Fists are monks, so I wouldn't worry too much about them carrying shields most of the time. While the armor bonus and speed bonus for Monk levels and Wisdom, as well as the ability to Flurry are lost if a Sacred Fist wears light armor, the speed bonus and AC bonus from levels of Sacred Fist are not. If you go with a cleric heavy Sacred Fist, say, 2 levels of Monk and 3 levels of Cleric, then it can be cost effective to use armor since all you lose is the Wisdom bonus to AC and Flurry. I don't recall off the top of my head how shields effect this, though.
DuctShuiTengu 11-16-06, 10:22 AM	While the armor bonus and speed bonus for Monk levels and Wisdom, as well as the ability to Flurry are lost if a Sacred Fist wears light armor, the speed bonus and AC bonus from levels of Sacred Fist are not. If you go with a cleric heavy Sacred Fist, say, 2 levels of Monk and 3 levels of Cleric, then it can be cost effective to use armor since all you lose is the Wisdom bonus to AC and Flurry. I don't recall off the top of my head how shields effect this, though. Shields interfere with the bonuses to AC and speed. And given the kind of wisdom that many Sacred Fists will have, I'd say it's a wash on whether you'd be better off with or without the light armor. Minor side-note: Monk 2/Cleric 3 wouldn't meet the BAB +4 prerequisite for this class.
Iswald 11-16-06, 10:35 AM	While the armor bonus and speed bonus for Monk levels and Wisdom, as well as the ability to Flurry are lost if a Sacred Fist wears light armor, the speed bonus and AC bonus from levels of Sacred Fist are not. If you go with a cleric heavy Sacred Fist, say, 2 levels of Monk and 3 levels of Cleric, then it can be cost effective to use armor since all you lose is the Wisdom bonus to AC and Flurry. I don't recall off the top of my head how shields effect this, though. Shields do the same thing to monks as armor. I don't think, as you put it, a cleric heavy sacred fist would want to give up their wisdom bonus to AC since it is probably significant. If some other class was used instead, favored soul, divine crusader, ranger, paladin, etc, which had a lower wisdom or used a different attribute, then they may prefer to use armor instead. Honestly, I used to have a sacred fist and was quite happy to convert the character into something else, anything else, when given the chance to do so.
trollbill 11-16-06, 10:42 AM	Shields interfere with the bonuses to AC and speed. And given the kind of wisdom that many Sacred Fists will have, I'd say it's a wash on whether you'd be better off with or without the light armor. AC-wise, it's can be a wash depending on the focus of the Sacred Fist. Typically, since mose sacred fists cannot afford to have higher than a 16 Wisdom for starters, you lose about 1 or 2 AC places to keep access to Flurry. Which is a fair trade. But there are other benefits to armor than just AC (unless they allow that optional rule in Arms & Equipment for adding non-AC armor bonuses to Bracers of Armor, which I don't think they do). One of the weaknesses of a Sacred Fist is moderate hit points combined with no resistance to Sneak Attack or Critical Hits. One way of avoiding this is wearing armor with Fortification on it. And that's just one example of the true benefits a Sacred Fist can get from wearing armor. Minor side-note: Monk 2/Cleric 3 wouldn't meet the BAB +4 prerequisite for this class. Ah, correct. Make it Monk 2/Cleric 4.
chesspiece 11-16-06, 11:37 AM	While this isn't official, I'd rule as follows: Same with gauntlets. Having gauntlets as part of your armor is okay, but having +1 flaming gauntlets isn't. Not sure how to apply that bit with gauntlets though. But as click_ml said, expect table variation. I'd say that wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power should be okay too. But if you asked to use Gauntlet damage instead of your unarmed damage (unlikely), you're in violation. Hmmm. I guess you could wear gauntlets and just kick or headbutt everyone - never hitting with your gauntlets. Then you'd be a Sacred Foot or Sacred Forehead? ;)
Iswald 11-16-06, 12:02 PM	Hmmm. I guess you could wear gauntlets and just kick or headbutt everyone - never hitting with your gauntlets. Then you'd be a Sacred Foot or Sacred Forehead? ;) One of the major problems with sacred fists is that they can't ever use or even knowingly carry a weapon. This means that if he's the only person left alive at the end of a mod and has to carry all the dead bodies back to town to be raised, everyone's weapons get left behind unless the sacred fist is willing to pay for an atonement. I suspect that the party would be willing to use all the over-the-cap gold for the atonement in this case and suck up the cost of raise deads. ;) So, if you have a sacred fist who is using weapon-like gauntlets, then he'd lose all of his sacred fist abilities.
Japangirl 11-16-06, 03:43 PM	I suspect by carry they mean carry like you're about to use it. There is no fluff text reason a Sacred Fist carrying the bodies of his/her comrades can't take all their stuff with him/her.
DuctShuiTengu 11-16-06, 04:09 PM	I'd say that wearing Gauntlets of Ogre Power should be okay too. But if you asked to use Gauntlet damage instead of your unarmed damage (unlikely), you're in violation. Right, although per the RAW, gauntlets of ogre strength aren't even the same kind of gauntlets as gauntlets for armor, instead taking up the slot for gloves. So Gauntlets of Ogre Strength definitely wouldn't count as a weapon for purposes of the Sacred Fist deal. Hmmm. I guess you could wear gauntlets and just kick or headbutt everyone - never hitting with your gauntlets. Then you'd be a Sacred Foot or Sacred Forehead? ;) The problem is, as Iswald says: they can't ever use or even knowingly carry a weapon. This means that if he's the only person left alive at the end of a mod and has to carry all the dead bodies back to town to be raised, everyone's weapons get left behind unless the sacred fist is willing to pay for an atonement. Hide the weapons in someone's haversack, then hit yourself in the head hard enough to forget you've done so? :P After all, the ban is on knowingly carrying weapons, so if you don't realize you have them... Yes, I'm joking. That said, I'd expect to see a lot of judges hand-waving this problem. So, if you have a sacred fist who is using weapon-like gauntlets, then he'd lose all of his sacred fist abilities. Agreed, though there's still likely to be some table variation on this subject.
_m_ 11-16-06, 05:24 PM	meanwhile, a sacred foot would be REALLY funny :D
Jay_Ibero_911 11-16-06, 08:52 PM	What about a Sacred Knee?
_m_ 11-16-06, 10:08 PM	What about a Sacred Knee? sacred elbow?
Mithreinmaethor 11-17-06, 04:52 AM	Sacred Cod Piece ?
Japangirl 11-17-06, 06:10 PM	That's a very brave monk. What if some monster decides to aim for the weapon?
Mithreinmaethor 11-18-06, 01:08 AM	Maybe its an adamantium cod piece of shielding
Jay_Ibero_911 11-18-06, 10:22 PM	Maybe its an adamantium cod piece of shielding Wouldn't that then constitute a weapon?
_m_ 11-20-06, 05:01 PM	what if you were to fight a night walker, whos standard tatic is to crush weapons between its giant hands?
clik_ml 11-25-06, 01:39 AM	Apparently the sage likes to keep stirring this pot without actually helping things out. From the latest FAQ: Can a monk get her unarmed strike enhanced as a magic weapon? No. Even a magic gauntlet or spiked gauntlet isn’t the ideal answer, since these aren’t listed as special monk weapons (and therefore aren’t as versatile as unarmed strikes). The amulet of mighty fists (Dungeon Master’s Guide, 246) grants the wearer an enhancement bonus on unarmed and natural weapon attacks, which would include the monk’s unarmed strike. Man, if you're in charge of clearing stuff up, then making random unhelpful comments really should be avoided at all costs. I'm not sure what he's trying to imply there. That flurrying gauntlets isn't okay anymore? That you do get monk damage with gauntlets? That you don't get monk damage with gauntlets? That you need proficiency to not get the -4 penalty? That they don't count from grappling to damage (unlike amulet of mighty fists)? And I just love that in this latest version of the FAQ there are still both answers on flurrying with gauntlets, and if I hadn't seen the last FAQ, I'd have absolutely no idea which entry superceded the other. Since they totally contradict each other, that could be a wee problem. The least they could do is apply a strikethrough onto the garbage about gauntlets not being unarmed attacks and thus not able to flurry. The sage's response to the monk's belt is thick with naivety as well but that's another issue that thankfully LG has pre-emptively circumvented.
Archwolf 12-22-06, 06:19 PM	I have a monk, and I'd like to aquire some spell casting ability via sacred fist (too low charisma or Intelligence for Enlightened Fist), but I'm concerned about never being able to harm anything, due to DR. I had thought enchanted guantlets were the perfect solution to this problem, but the consensus of the previous discussion appears to be that if the gauntlets add damage to your attack, they qualify as a weapon. The exception appears to be if the guantlets merely add a buff, like a strength bonus. I plan to be a monk long enough to aquire Ki strike/magic (monk4/cleric 2, sacred fist +), but what about wearing blessed gloves of adamnatine? Do they qualify as a weapon or a buff (good and adamantine)?
Nutation 12-22-06, 08:14 PM	I plan to be a monk long enough to aquire Ki strike/magic (monk4/cleric 2, sacred fist +), but what about wearing blessed gloves of adamnatine? Do they qualify as a weapon or a buff (good and adamantine)? If you hit your enemies with it, it's a weapon. Gauntlets of ogre power are ok because they buff you; you could just as well poke your enemy with an elbow and still benefit from the +2 strength. Ki strike isn't critical, because as a cleric you can cast Magic Weapon, Align Weapon, or GMW on your fist (or other body part). Silversheen also works. DR/cold iron and DR/adamantine are the tough ones. So, your sacred fist needs another option for going against unbeatable DR. Spells are an option (Spiritual Weapon, Deific Vengeance, etc.). Grapple/Trip/Disarm work. Or, you can just buff and aid the PC who can get the job done.
ShinAkuma2 12-23-06, 07:24 PM	So, your sacred fist needs another option for going against unbeatable DR. SFs already have the ability to imbue their unarmed attacks with energy damage, so at least they have some ability to pierce any type of DR.
Iswald 12-28-06, 10:59 AM	I plan to be a monk long enough to aquire Ki strike/magic (monk4/cleric 2, sacred fist +), but what about wearing blessed gloves of adamnatine? Do they qualify as a weapon or a buff (good and adamantine)? There are a couple spells in RS that help with DR. Stone Fist allows your unarmed strike to do lethal bludgeoning damage. For dwarves, it will also let your unarmed strike be considered cold iron to overcome DR. Earth Hammer can be cast on a weapon to improve damage by one step and let it go through DR as if it was adamantine. This should work for a monk's unarmed strike even if it doesn't work for others.
Iswald 12-28-06, 11:02 AM	SFs already have the ability to imbue their unarmed attacks with energy damage, so at least they have some ability to pierce any type of DR. Half holy and half fire damage, which takes several levels to gain. There's an item that lets you do about the same thing, though just fire damage (guantlets which a sacred fist can't use). Also, there's a feat in PHB 2 that is very similar which uses stunning fist attempts (don't have the book, can't recall the details). Two more reasons why I dislike Sacred Fist.
Nutation 12-28-06, 02:40 PM	[QUOTE=Archwolf;10984491I plan to be a monk long enough to aquire Ki strike/magic (monk4/cleric 2, sacred fist +), but what about wearing blessed gloves of adamnatine? Do they qualify as a weapon or a buff (good and adamantine)?[/QUOTE] Weapon capsules (CV) would work. Ghostblight is particularly nice. Putting a weapon capsule retainer on your wrist is a little odd, though. I don't know whether I would allow it.