Save Dc for a spell in a scroll [Archive] - Wizards Community

Save Dc for a spell in a scroll [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
berpo
03-28-07, 03:54 PM Hello all, again I need your help.

I tried to find in the DMG what's the save for a spell on a scroll? (the caster saves or the minimum of the spell like a wand).

If the caster have spell focus(specific school) and greater spell focus(specific school) and is not the scriber, will the save be higher ? If he scribe the spell and have those feats. Will another mage have a better save on the spell ?

If someone could find me the answer and the page in the book where he found the answer.

Thanks all.

Marc.
Jay_Ibero_911
03-28-07, 04:21 PM DC's for scrolls are the minimum possible. SPell Level+Minimum spellcasting stat. For example, 1st level scrolls always have a DC of 11. Nothing a spellcaster has impacts the the DC, unless the feat or ability specifically says it affects the DC's of magic items.

[Edit]Here's a link to the info in the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm
Britt
03-28-07, 05:59 PM That's actually debatable (I've debated it myself). Theo Judd and I have a long standing disagreement about this subject. The most accepted interpretation is that it is the minimum DC possible.
LachlarlanIII
03-28-07, 06:02 PM That's actually debatable (I've debated it myself). Theo Judd and I have a long standing disagreement about this subject. The most accepted interpretation is that it is the minimum DC possible.

This is the easiest interpretation and also removes table variation (in this case, a good thing)
_metz_
03-29-07, 12:12 AM If its a scroll crafted by YOU it uses your DC.

(As far as I can tell, may be wrong)

If its bought it uses the minimum DC possible as far as I can tell, without campaign documentation.

As for spell focus it applies to your ability to produce that magic. I wouild see that it would apply if YOU crafted the item, but not if you didn't, as scrolls have all the magic within them and you yourself don't actually generate it.

This may be something in a dispel confusion.
clannagh
03-29-07, 12:33 AM This may be something in a dispel confusion.

Considering Britt writes the Dispel Confusions and he has already posted a reply in this thread ....
_metz_
03-29-07, 12:43 AM duly noted, was just making it clear I may be wrong and it was only my interpretation from straight PHB GMG stuff.
Madfox11
03-29-07, 07:12 AM Using the DC from the creator of the scrolls is asking for trouble. Not only do you need to note down the DC in the item construction, you also need to ask yourself whether or not some temporary effect that boost Intelligence was in effect and if it is applied or not. It would also create a situation where authors can arbitrarily increase the DC of scroll without actually increasing the cost which is a bit odd. In a home campaign this might be feasable (although not advisable due to the cost discrepancy), but in LG doing so would be a bit too complicated in my opinion. I never even met somebody who thought otherwise btw and the discussion comes a bit as a surprise ;)
clik_ml
03-29-07, 08:07 AM I'm pretty sure the only RAW wiggle room is whether you can apply bonuses to DC from stuff like gnomes casting illusion spells, and the Spell Focus feats; simply because these things are never mentioned in the rules regarding setting DCs on magic items.

My ruling until otherwise informed is that those things only work for the caster, not the creator. So a gnome with spell focus (illusion) casting an illusion from a scroll would get a +2 bump to any save DCs set for that scroll (though with the scroll's original DC set to the minimum possible). By the same token, it is prudent to assume that you can't apply any of those bonuses on items unless the judge gives you the go ahead.

As Jay noted, ability modifiers used to determine DCs on scrolls are *required* to be set at the minimum, regardless of the creator or caster of the item.

The only exception to the rule noted are staves.

Here's an even more pertinent link:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#savingThrowsAgainstM agicItemPowers
Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC.

The only instances when I can think of where a save DC is bumped would be on stuff like greater arrows of slaying where the caster needs heighten spell in order to craft them (tacitly heightened as a 9th level finger of slaying with a required 19(+4 mod) in casting stat to yield DC 23 instead of DC 20)... and when using different casters lists for the same spell (like a bard using a hold person scroll written by a wizard).

Now that does set some interesting precedents, however in all these examples it still remains true that the minimum ability modifier needed to cast the spell is used when setting the DC for non-staff items.
Timlagor
03-29-07, 09:35 AM How can you think there's any ambiguity in the rules?

I just don't get it: "DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." seems totaly clear to me.
kjenks
03-29-07, 10:23 AM How can you think there's any ambiguity in the rules?

I just don't get it: "DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." seems totaly clear to me.

There is a tiny ambiguity for some spells that are on different spell lists at different levels. An arcane scroll of Charm Person, for example, is in the DMG tables as a level 1 spell, just like a sorceror or wizard would cast it, so it would require only Int or Cha 11 to cast. Charm Person is also a level 2 bard spell, so it would require Cha 12 to cast.

So what would be the save DC if a bard activates the spell from the scroll? Would it be DC 11, the minimum save DC for a level 1 spell cast by a sorc/wiz? Or would it be DC 12, the minimum save DC for a level 1 spell cast by a bard?

There's another strange one: What's the save DC for an arcane scroll of Calm Emotions? It's a level 2 bard spell, requiring at least Cha 12 (bonus +1) to cast. But the caster level implied by the price of the scroll in the DMG tables (200 gp = 25 x 2 x 4) is CL 4. Checking the bard description, if you're at CL 4 (bard level 4), you can only cast a level 2 spell if you have a bonus spell of that level, which means you must have Cha 14 (bonus +2). So is the save DC 10 + 2 + 1 = 13 (as a with Cha 12) or is it 10 + 2 + 2 = 14 (as a bard with Cha 14)?
chesspiece
03-29-07, 11:18 AM Spell level & caster level of a scroll or wand is determined during creation and does not change depending on the caster (wizard vs bard). This is important for game balance since spell level & CL factor into item pricing. Try the following questions until you get your answer.

1) What price was paid for the scroll? That would clear up the spell level question. For LG NPCs, you can often work this out from the GP Value for PCs recovering the scroll. GPV * 2 * 6 ~ market value.

2) What CL does the scroll have? This can be used to guess the spell level.

3) Is it an arcane or divine scroll (or is it in the possession of an arcane / divine caster)? Find the scroll on the DMG scroll tables.

4) Take a guess. If the possessor has the required feat (paladin with scribe scroll), assume that they created it at their minimum spell & caster level. If not, assume it was made by a cleric or wizard; if not - then a druid; then a bard; then any other secondary caster (paladin, ranger, other base classes, PRCs). But set it at the lowest spell / caster level possible.

Your bard example is a head-scratcher. I'd expect table variation. If a Player asked, I'd let them use the higher DC 14.
Samwise
03-29-07, 01:30 PM There is a tiny ambiguity for some spells that are on different spell lists at different levels. An arcane scroll of Charm Person, for example, is in the DMG tables as a level 1 spell, just like a sorceror or wizard would cast it, so it would require only Int or Cha 11 to cast. Charm Person is also a level 2 bard spell, so it would require Cha 12 to cast.

So what would be the save DC if a bard activates the spell from the scroll? Would it be DC 11, the minimum save DC for a level 1 spell cast by a sorc/wiz? Or would it be DC 12, the minimum save DC for a level 1 spell cast by a bard?

Neither.
It would be DC 13.
10 base + 2 for 2nd level spell + 1 for 12 Charisma.
It would also cost 150 gp for a 2nd level scroll, and thus be rather distinct from a 1st level scroll of charm person, and even distinct from a 1st level scroll of charm person at caster level 3rd.

There's another strange one: What's the save DC for an arcane scroll of Calm Emotions? It's a level 2 bard spell, requiring at least Cha 12 (bonus +1) to cast. But the caster level implied by the price of the scroll in the DMG tables (200 gp = 25 x 2 x 4) is CL 4. Checking the bard description, if you're at CL 4 (bard level 4), you can only cast a level 2 spell if you have a bonus spell of that level, which means you must have Cha 14 (bonus +2). So is the save DC 10 + 2 + 1 = 13 (as a with Cha 12) or is it 10 + 2 + 2 = 14 (as a bard with Cha 14)?

The save is DC 13.
Who says the scroll was created by a 4th level bard? A 5th level bard with a 12 Charisma can create the scroll with a caster level of 4th.
The requirement for a scroll is the minimum ability score to cast the spell, not the minimum ability score to get a bonus spell of that level.
kjenks
03-29-07, 01:42 PM About that Charm Person scroll...

Neither.
It would be DC 13.
10 base + 2 for 2nd level spell + 1 for 12 Charisma.
It would also cost 150 gp for a 2nd level scroll, and thus be rather distinct from a 1st level scroll of charm person, and even distinct from a 1st level scroll of charm person at caster level 3rd.

I'm pretty sure a bard can activate a standard DMG scroll of Charm Person (25 gp). A level 1 bard with Cha 11 meets the requirements:

SRD
===
Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
• The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
• The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check.
===

Type: Arcane. Check.
Spell on class spell list: Yes. Check.
Requisite ability score: 11+. Check
Caster level: 1+. Check

Sam, am I missing something? Why would a bard need to have a special scroll of Charm Person? Why can't he just use the standard DMG scroll? (Other than the fact that the Will save DC stinks.)
Samwise
03-29-07, 01:53 PM Sam, am I missing something? Why would a bard need to have a special scroll of Charm Person? Why can't he just use the standard DMG scroll? (Other than the fact that the Will save DC stinks.)

Yes, you are missing something.
What is the CL of the scroll and the level of the spell?

If it is a 2nd level spell for a bard, then it is a 2nd level spell, and has a higher save DC.

Oh, I see now . . .
When you wrote:
Charm Person is also a level 2 bard spell

It was wrong.
Charm Person is not a 2nd level bard spell.
Charm Person is a 1st level bard spell.
You just have to be a 2nd level bard to be able to cast 1st level bard spells.
That is significantly different from the spell being 2nd level instead of 1st level.

So the answer is:
DC = 10 base + 1 for 1st level spell + 0 for ability score 11 = 11

Sorry, I missed that you had an incorrect factor in your question.

However, as to why a bard needs a special scroll of charm person, he doesn't.
However, if a bard wants to create a scroll of charm person, he can only create it as with a caster level of 2nd because of his character class.
You can get an overview of this on the two tables on scroll prices on page 287 in the DMG. For purposes of purchasing scrolls, the DMG default is that all scrolls of charm person are made by wizards and not bards, and thus cost only 25 gp.
Britt
03-29-07, 02:18 PM There's actually a different angle on this discussion with different supporting text than has been quoted so far. As a Circle member, though, I don't like table variation, so I'm not going to go into the argument :)
cycloptic_squirrel
03-29-07, 03:42 PM There's actually a different angle on this discussion with different supporting text than has been quoted so far. As a Circle member, though, I don't like table variation, so I'm not going to go into the argument :)

Tease. :rolleye2:
Timlagor
04-02-07, 01:27 PM It would be more helpful to tell us what this other "supporting text" is so we can consider it (and work out why the "different angle" is nonsense :P) before we are faced with it at the table.
Mystical_Tutor
04-08-07, 01:48 PM ...I don't like table variation,...

Nor do I, but in following this thread I am feeling some negative vibes.

When my druid scribes a Heal scroll it costs him gold and XP above and beyond what a cleric pays for the same (Cleric 6/Druid 7 for Heal). Am I hearing that I get no additional benefit (like the 10 more points of healing) when I cast it?

If so, Boo, Hissss.
Samwise
04-08-07, 02:03 PM Nor do I, but in following this thread I am feeling some negative vibes.

When my druid scribes a Heal scroll it costs him gold and XP above and beyond what a cleric pays for the same (Cleric 6/Druid 7 for Heal). Am I hearing that I get no additional benefit (like the 10 more points of healing) when I cast it?

If so, Boo, Hissss.

That is incorrect.

Any scroll that a specific character scribes has it's Caster Level set by the character.
The Caster Level determines various characteristics of the spell when it is cast.
This affects the cost of the scroll.
The Caster Level of a scroll should always be listed unless it is otherwise obvious. Otherwise it always defaults to the minimum possible caster level, and the minimum possible spell level.

If a druid scribes a scroll of heal, the spell is 7th level, and the minimum caster level is 13th. It will heal 130 points of damage.
Likewise a cleric could scribe a scroll of heal at 13th level and it would also heal 130 points of damage.
If any PC buys a scroll of heal as listed in the DMG, it is a 6th level spell, and thus scribed by an 11th level caster, and so it will heal 110 points of damage.
Note the difference between "scribed" and "purchased," and by which class.
Mystical_Tutor
04-08-07, 08:17 PM That is incorrect.
Note the difference between "scribed" and "purchased," and by which class.

Ahh, I think I get it, then my druid will have to use a cleric scribed scroll if he buys one. Boy, wait till the Druid Scroll Scribing Union finds out about this--no wonder we have so little money.
Timlagor
04-10-07, 11:48 AM Since Heal is not on the list of Open Scrolls anyway, you'll have to buy the scroll you find access to (which is likely to be a Cleric one but may not be).
Mystical_Tutor
04-10-07, 04:04 PM Since Heal is not on the list of Open Scrolls anyway, you'll have to buy the scroll you find access to (which is likely to be a Cleric one but may not be).

Good technical point. I should have used CSW (Cleric 3/Druid4) for my example.

Thanks
kjenks
04-11-07, 10:29 AM Now if an Adept (DMG NPC class) scribed the scroll of Heal, it would be a level 5 spell.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
berpo 03-28-07, 03:54 PM	Hello all, again I need your help. I tried to find in the DMG what's the save for a spell on a scroll? (the caster saves or the minimum of the spell like a wand). If the caster have spell focus(specific school) and greater spell focus(specific school) and is not the scriber, will the save be higher ? If he scribe the spell and have those feats. Will another mage have a better save on the spell ? If someone could find me the answer and the page in the book where he found the answer. Thanks all. Marc.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-28-07, 04:21 PM	DC's for scrolls are the minimum possible. SPell Level+Minimum spellcasting stat. For example, 1st level scrolls always have a DC of 11. Nothing a spellcaster has impacts the the DC, unless the feat or ability specifically says it affects the DC's of magic items. [Edit]Here's a link to the info in the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm
Britt 03-28-07, 05:59 PM	That's actually debatable (I've debated it myself). Theo Judd and I have a long standing disagreement about this subject. The most accepted interpretation is that it is the minimum DC possible.
LachlarlanIII 03-28-07, 06:02 PM	That's actually debatable (I've debated it myself). Theo Judd and I have a long standing disagreement about this subject. The most accepted interpretation is that it is the minimum DC possible. This is the easiest interpretation and also removes table variation (in this case, a good thing)
_metz_ 03-29-07, 12:12 AM	If its a scroll crafted by YOU it uses your DC. (As far as I can tell, may be wrong) If its bought it uses the minimum DC possible as far as I can tell, without campaign documentation. As for spell focus it applies to your ability to produce that magic. I wouild see that it would apply if YOU crafted the item, but not if you didn't, as scrolls have all the magic within them and you yourself don't actually generate it. This may be something in a dispel confusion.
clannagh 03-29-07, 12:33 AM	This may be something in a dispel confusion. Considering Britt writes the Dispel Confusions and he has already posted a reply in this thread ....
_metz_ 03-29-07, 12:43 AM	duly noted, was just making it clear I may be wrong and it was only my interpretation from straight PHB GMG stuff.
Madfox11 03-29-07, 07:12 AM	Using the DC from the creator of the scrolls is asking for trouble. Not only do you need to note down the DC in the item construction, you also need to ask yourself whether or not some temporary effect that boost Intelligence was in effect and if it is applied or not. It would also create a situation where authors can arbitrarily increase the DC of scroll without actually increasing the cost which is a bit odd. In a home campaign this might be feasable (although not advisable due to the cost discrepancy), but in LG doing so would be a bit too complicated in my opinion. I never even met somebody who thought otherwise btw and the discussion comes a bit as a surprise ;)
clik_ml 03-29-07, 08:07 AM	I'm pretty sure the only RAW wiggle room is whether you can apply bonuses to DC from stuff like gnomes casting illusion spells, and the Spell Focus feats; simply because these things are never mentioned in the rules regarding setting DCs on magic items. My ruling until otherwise informed is that those things only work for the caster, not the creator. So a gnome with spell focus (illusion) casting an illusion from a scroll would get a +2 bump to any save DCs set for that scroll (though with the scroll's original DC set to the minimum possible). By the same token, it is prudent to assume that you can't apply any of those bonuses on items unless the judge gives you the go ahead. As Jay noted, ability modifiers used to determine DCs on scrolls are required to be set at the minimum, regardless of the creator or caster of the item. The only exception to the rule noted are staves. Here's an even more pertinent link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#savingThrowsAgainstM agicItemPowers Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell. Staffs are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DC. The only instances when I can think of where a save DC is bumped would be on stuff like greater arrows of slaying where the caster needs heighten spell in order to craft them (tacitly heightened as a 9th level finger of slaying with a required 19(+4 mod) in casting stat to yield DC 23 instead of DC 20)... and when using different casters lists for the same spell (like a bard using a hold person scroll written by a wizard). Now that does set some interesting precedents, however in all these examples it still remains true that the minimum ability modifier needed to cast the spell is used when setting the DC for non-staff items.
Timlagor 03-29-07, 09:35 AM	How can you think there's any ambiguity in the rules? I just don't get it: "DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." seems totaly clear to me.
kjenks 03-29-07, 10:23 AM	How can you think there's any ambiguity in the rules? I just don't get it: "DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." seems totaly clear to me. There is a tiny ambiguity for some spells that are on different spell lists at different levels. An arcane scroll of Charm Person, for example, is in the DMG tables as a level 1 spell, just like a sorceror or wizard would cast it, so it would require only Int or Cha 11 to cast. Charm Person is also a level 2 bard spell, so it would require Cha 12 to cast. So what would be the save DC if a bard activates the spell from the scroll? Would it be DC 11, the minimum save DC for a level 1 spell cast by a sorc/wiz? Or would it be DC 12, the minimum save DC for a level 1 spell cast by a bard? There's another strange one: What's the save DC for an arcane scroll of Calm Emotions? It's a level 2 bard spell, requiring at least Cha 12 (bonus +1) to cast. But the caster level implied by the price of the scroll in the DMG tables (200 gp = 25 x 2 x 4) is CL 4. Checking the bard description, if you're at CL 4 (bard level 4), you can only cast a level 2 spell if you have a bonus spell of that level, which means you must have Cha 14 (bonus +2). So is the save DC 10 + 2 + 1 = 13 (as a with Cha 12) or is it 10 + 2 + 2 = 14 (as a bard with Cha 14)?
chesspiece 03-29-07, 11:18 AM	Spell level & caster level of a scroll or wand is determined during creation and does not change depending on the caster (wizard vs bard). This is important for game balance since spell level & CL factor into item pricing. Try the following questions until you get your answer. 1) What price was paid for the scroll? That would clear up the spell level question. For LG NPCs, you can often work this out from the GP Value for PCs recovering the scroll. GPV * 2 * 6 ~ market value. 2) What CL does the scroll have? This can be used to guess the spell level. 3) Is it an arcane or divine scroll (or is it in the possession of an arcane / divine caster)? Find the scroll on the DMG scroll tables. 4) Take a guess. If the possessor has the required feat (paladin with scribe scroll), assume that they created it at their minimum spell & caster level. If not, assume it was made by a cleric or wizard; if not - then a druid; then a bard; then any other secondary caster (paladin, ranger, other base classes, PRCs). But set it at the lowest spell / caster level possible. Your bard example is a head-scratcher. I'd expect table variation. If a Player asked, I'd let them use the higher DC 14.
Samwise 03-29-07, 01:30 PM	There is a tiny ambiguity for some spells that are on different spell lists at different levels. An arcane scroll of Charm Person, for example, is in the DMG tables as a level 1 spell, just like a sorceror or wizard would cast it, so it would require only Int or Cha 11 to cast. Charm Person is also a level 2 bard spell, so it would require Cha 12 to cast. So what would be the save DC if a bard activates the spell from the scroll? Would it be DC 11, the minimum save DC for a level 1 spell cast by a sorc/wiz? Or would it be DC 12, the minimum save DC for a level 1 spell cast by a bard? Neither. It would be DC 13. 10 base + 2 for 2nd level spell + 1 for 12 Charisma. It would also cost 150 gp for a 2nd level scroll, and thus be rather distinct from a 1st level scroll of charm person, and even distinct from a 1st level scroll of charm person at caster level 3rd. There's another strange one: What's the save DC for an arcane scroll of Calm Emotions? It's a level 2 bard spell, requiring at least Cha 12 (bonus +1) to cast. But the caster level implied by the price of the scroll in the DMG tables (200 gp = 25 x 2 x 4) is CL 4. Checking the bard description, if you're at CL 4 (bard level 4), you can only cast a level 2 spell if you have a bonus spell of that level, which means you must have Cha 14 (bonus +2). So is the save DC 10 + 2 + 1 = 13 (as a with Cha 12) or is it 10 + 2 + 2 = 14 (as a bard with Cha 14)? The save is DC 13. Who says the scroll was created by a 4th level bard? A 5th level bard with a 12 Charisma can create the scroll with a caster level of 4th. The requirement for a scroll is the minimum ability score to cast the spell, not the minimum ability score to get a bonus spell of that level.
kjenks 03-29-07, 01:42 PM	About that Charm Person scroll... Neither. It would be DC 13. 10 base + 2 for 2nd level spell + 1 for 12 Charisma. It would also cost 150 gp for a 2nd level scroll, and thus be rather distinct from a 1st level scroll of charm person, and even distinct from a 1st level scroll of charm person at caster level 3rd. I'm pretty sure a bard can activate a standard DMG scroll of Charm Person (25 gp). A level 1 bard with Cha 11 meets the requirements: SRD === Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance. To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements. • The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.) • The user must have the spell on his or her class list. • The user must have the requisite ability score. If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. === Type: Arcane. Check. Spell on class spell list: Yes. Check. Requisite ability score: 11+. Check Caster level: 1+. Check Sam, am I missing something? Why would a bard need to have a special scroll of Charm Person? Why can't he just use the standard DMG scroll? (Other than the fact that the Will save DC stinks.)
Samwise 03-29-07, 01:53 PM	Sam, am I missing something? Why would a bard need to have a special scroll of Charm Person? Why can't he just use the standard DMG scroll? (Other than the fact that the Will save DC stinks.) Yes, you are missing something. What is the CL of the scroll and the level of the spell? If it is a 2nd level spell for a bard, then it is a 2nd level spell, and has a higher save DC. Oh, I see now . . . When you wrote: Charm Person is also a level 2 bard spell It was wrong. Charm Person is not a 2nd level bard spell. Charm Person is a 1st level bard spell. You just have to be a 2nd level bard to be able to cast 1st level bard spells. That is significantly different from the spell being 2nd level instead of 1st level. So the answer is: DC = 10 base + 1 for 1st level spell + 0 for ability score 11 = 11 Sorry, I missed that you had an incorrect factor in your question. However, as to why a bard needs a special scroll of charm person, he doesn't. However, if a bard wants to create a scroll of charm person, he can only create it as with a caster level of 2nd because of his character class. You can get an overview of this on the two tables on scroll prices on page 287 in the DMG. For purposes of purchasing scrolls, the DMG default is that all scrolls of charm person are made by wizards and not bards, and thus cost only 25 gp.
Britt 03-29-07, 02:18 PM	There's actually a different angle on this discussion with different supporting text than has been quoted so far. As a Circle member, though, I don't like table variation, so I'm not going to go into the argument :)
cycloptic_squirrel 03-29-07, 03:42 PM	There's actually a different angle on this discussion with different supporting text than has been quoted so far. As a Circle member, though, I don't like table variation, so I'm not going to go into the argument :) Tease. :rolleye2:
Timlagor 04-02-07, 01:27 PM	It would be more helpful to tell us what this other "supporting text" is so we can consider it (and work out why the "different angle" is nonsense :P) before we are faced with it at the table.
Mystical_Tutor 04-08-07, 01:48 PM	...I don't like table variation,... Nor do I, but in following this thread I am feeling some negative vibes. When my druid scribes a Heal scroll it costs him gold and XP above and beyond what a cleric pays for the same (Cleric 6/Druid 7 for Heal). Am I hearing that I get no additional benefit (like the 10 more points of healing) when I cast it? If so, Boo, Hissss.
Samwise 04-08-07, 02:03 PM	Nor do I, but in following this thread I am feeling some negative vibes. When my druid scribes a Heal scroll it costs him gold and XP above and beyond what a cleric pays for the same (Cleric 6/Druid 7 for Heal). Am I hearing that I get no additional benefit (like the 10 more points of healing) when I cast it? If so, Boo, Hissss. That is incorrect. Any scroll that a specific character scribes has it's Caster Level set by the character. The Caster Level determines various characteristics of the spell when it is cast. This affects the cost of the scroll. The Caster Level of a scroll should always be listed unless it is otherwise obvious. Otherwise it always defaults to the minimum possible caster level, and the minimum possible spell level. If a druid scribes a scroll of heal, the spell is 7th level, and the minimum caster level is 13th. It will heal 130 points of damage. Likewise a cleric could scribe a scroll of heal at 13th level and it would also heal 130 points of damage. If any PC buys a scroll of heal as listed in the DMG, it is a 6th level spell, and thus scribed by an 11th level caster, and so it will heal 110 points of damage. Note the difference between "scribed" and "purchased," and by which class.
Mystical_Tutor 04-08-07, 08:17 PM	That is incorrect. Note the difference between "scribed" and "purchased," and by which class. Ahh, I think I get it, then my druid will have to use a cleric scribed scroll if he buys one. Boy, wait till the Druid Scroll Scribing Union finds out about this--no wonder we have so little money.
Timlagor 04-10-07, 11:48 AM	Since Heal is not on the list of Open Scrolls anyway, you'll have to buy the scroll you find access to (which is likely to be a Cleric one but may not be).
Mystical_Tutor 04-10-07, 04:04 PM	Since Heal is not on the list of Open Scrolls anyway, you'll have to buy the scroll you find access to (which is likely to be a Cleric one but may not be). Good technical point. I should have used CSW (Cleric 3/Druid4) for my example. Thanks
kjenks 04-11-07, 10:29 AM	Now if an Adept (DMG NPC class) scribed the scroll of Heal, it would be a level 5 spell.